I manage software development teams. I spend my days in video meetings, writing emails, reviewing code (sometimes writing it on side projects to keep current) and writing documents. I type 120 WPM and live and die by my keyboard. Most of the time I am using an external keyboard but when I travel or work flexibly away from my house, it's all on the butterfly keyboard. After a year, several keys were useless, - enter ;, j and e. They would stick and repeat the character too much, or not recognize a hit at all. Like a good Apple fan boy I always purchase Apple care so I was able to send it in for repair but being without a machine for three days was a non-starter. So, I ordered a Lenovo T480S, installed Linux and prepared an environment for when my MBP 2016 touchbar unit went back to Apple. My MBP has been back from Apple for two months now and I have yet to boot it.... The keyboard on this Lenovo is ridiculously great-- it's amazing to be able to work again :) And, its not just me we've had 4 MBP Touchbar retinas have keys fail around the 9mos to 1yr mark. One 3 of them, Apple gave us grief as if it was standard "wear and tear." Uh, ya, these $4K aluminum rigs are going to be around dust, and humans have hair ... and... well its on you to make a more resilient key switch Apple... As for me, sticking with Lenovo box from here on out.
> The keyboard on this Lenovo [T480S] is ridiculously great-- it's amazing to be able to work again :)
It is really incredible how low Apple has managed to drive people's expectations wrt keyboards. I feel like Thinkpad keyboards have gone steadily downhill since the ~2005 T4x series (I still use a T43 on a regular basis, and do side-to-side comparisons between it and newer machines). Macbook keyboards by comparison are nearly unusable, unergonomic garbage: key caps not shaped, linear action with very harsh bottoming, comically oversize trackpad that you always manage to accidentally press with your palm while typing, sharp edge case that pokes into your wrists. Typing on a Macbook is slow and results in pain halfway through the day. Even the bottom of the barrel Acer Aspire One with the flat key caps (again, a machine I actually own and regularly use and can make comparisons against) provides a better typing experience.
The Apple touchpad is by far the best trackpad I've ever used on any laptop. By such a wide margin it's ridiculous. I never accidentally press it with my palm or have any other issues with it.
I agree fully that the keyboards are hot garbage, though. I can type well on them, they're just painful over time due to the harshness you mention.
The 2016 made it so large that it was constantly reacting whilst typing. It was infuriating. I've almost never managed that on the 2015 or earlier models even though I would sometimes touch the touchpad whilst typing. I sold the '16 because of the broken keyboard - but the stupid touchpad and touchbar contributed to my hating the whole machine. Now on a 2015 again.
Even though Apple touchpads were the best I've always preferred a trackpoint to any touchpad, and their keyboards are leagues ahead of anything Apple. Mind even Thinkpad keyboards used to be better. Someone needs to figure out how to fit a Thinkpad keyboard and trackpoint into a Macbook Pro :)
> I never accidentally press it with my palm or have any other issues with it.
There seem to be two kinds of typists: ones that rest their palms, and ones that hover their palms. If you hover, you will never encounter these issues. I rest my palms to the degree that any touchpad that is not recessed gets unintentional input. I also believe, based on personal experience, that the ergonomics of a pointing device are in general inversely proportional to the amount of hand/arm movement, so larger touchpads are going to be less ergonomic than smaller ones (a corollary is that touchpad gestures will give you RSI). Having three buttons for a pointing device is essential. Macbooks fail on all counts on these criteria. The closest to ideal touchpads that I have encountered are on the T4x/T6x series Thinkpads - 2" large and deeply recessed. Unfortunately they only have two buttons.
>>>It is really incredible how low Apple has managed to drive people's expectations
You could have stopped there.. The entire Apple Product line is the same way, Is it proof positive that Marketing Drives the world not quality, technology, or anything else.
I think it would be correct to say that this is what Apple has slowly become. In the past, it was clearly innovative. The original Mac was incredibly innovative in 1984. The iPhone was innovative back in 2007. But Apple has not had a new idea in the last 10 years, and it has shifted from technology innovation to marketing. Nowadays, it lags in almost every segment, but it still has great marketing, and its reputation has not yet caught up with the sad reality of 2018.
Apple also has a mountain of cash. They could invest in innovative new technologies. But they won't. Partly that's because of the way Tim Cook's salary has been structured. Following a somewhat superficial and short-term understanding of the phrase "share-holder value", his pay is partly based on how much he can boost the stock price. And he's got no real incentive to engage in a massive R&D program, since the results would only pay off in the long run, after he had retired.
I'm currently using a MacBook Pro. I'd like to stick with Mac's, but that decision is very difficult to justify right now. For less money I could get a great Linux laptop.
I get downvoted whenever I mention that the payment structure for Tim Cook is probably having a negative effect on Apple's long-term prospects. Does everyone understand that the incentives offered to CEOs often influence what they optimize for? Can we agree that the most widespread understanding of the phrase "shareholder value" tends to emphasize short-term gains at the expense of long-term gains?
Except that Cook has literally said, on a public call no less, that he doesn't care what the shareholders think if the decisions they make aren't in the best interest of their customers.
I think a big issue for me, and for others on here, is that we're no longer Apple's demographic. Their machines work for me still so I'm not in the same boat as most but Apple is now making computers for everyone, not just the creative professionals or developers. The things we don't care about (Touch Bar, for example) are things that I'm constantly hearing good things about from others. In my case, I actually love the TB because it's great for Final Cut and any other media tools I use.
Apple is the one company where "shareholder value" is not a driving factor.
Q1 2018 revenue: iPhone: 61.5bn USD, others 5.5bn USD (Apple TV, Apple Watch, Beats products, iPod touch and Apple-branded and third-party accessories.) Even if it is a novel idea it is still pretty insignificant for the bottom line.
I think when a product line crosses the $1B threshold (ATV, Watch, iPad), it's still a successful product despite being dwarfed by the iPhone.
Think of all the other technologies companies that are currently dwarfed by the iPhone's sales: Tesla, SpaceX, Blue Origin, Microsoft, Google, Netflix, etc etc. Are these all insignificant? Nope...
The more dismissive/reductive/binary you are about a complicated issue with wide ranges of perspectives, the more obligated you are to back it up with analysis. Otherwise it just comes across as BS, which is probably why you're getting downvoted. It's like, write big checks all you want, but if they're not backed by anything, they'll bounce. The solution is to either (metaphorically) put more money in the bank, or (metaphorically) just write smaller checks.
The best Apple keyboard is just "OK". Have a 2015 MBP, and it's OK.
Whether Macbook Pro or the extended iMac keyboard they seem designed to be nice to look at with no consideration of what they are like to actually type on.
I bought an external mechanical. "OK" is enough for when travelling or browsing.
The Apple butterfly keyboard, sadly, is designed for people who don't type and don't do most of their work via key entry. It's frustrating to use it for software engineering, especially if you use vim or emacs to edit code. And because of other key optimizations I'm used to, it's even worse.
For instance, I have the Vimium plugin installed and I use the home row keys to navigate web pages. It's more efficient but clearly I'm asking for trouble by working this way, given the failure rate of the new keyboard.
Apple needs to go back to the drawing board and create an ergonomic keyboard with lots of focus group feedback from software engineers, writers, and content creators, and stop treating the MBP as if it's a consumption device (that's what the iPad is for).
If your criteria for judging laptop keyboards is, "does this feel like an external mechanical keyboard", then you're always going to be disappointed. I like mechanical keyboards too, but most people don't, so they're generally not appropriate for non-niche laptops. I don't blame computer companies for not making them. Although: if you feel strongly about that kind of typing experience, and don't mind running Windows or Linux, there do exist PC laptops with mechanical keyboards.
IMO the keyboard and trackpad on the last last-gen MBP were as good or better than anything on the market. This is what makes the new ones even more of a heartbreaker to me. I don't want to buy a new computer and feel like it's a step down from what I was using before, especially such a precipitous drop for what was literally my favorite aspect of the old hardware. It also feels like a bad precedent, a move in a direction that I personally don't want any further moves to be made in. I've been using MBPs for so long and have generally been so happy with them. It sucks that I feel like something I've trusted for so long may be moving away from me, like being in what you thought was a great relationship, then getting dumped out of the blue.
> If your criteria for judging laptop keyboards is, "does this feel like an external mechanical keyboard"
Hardly, but then I don't say or even imply that by mentioning I bought an external mechanical. I bought it during my brief spell with the 2016 where I was especially disappointed by the keyboard. I still bought Apple even though the keyboard was a mark against. It fits with work and I prefer MacOS/*nix to Windows.
I've never been disappointed by Thinkpad keyboards, so it appears someone is able to make a laptop keyboard, the brand has received praise for the keyboard for decades. They (even the recently redesigned one that I see as a step backwards, mainly from poorer layout) are an order of magnitude above anything Apple has used in years. I've always been a bit surprised since my first Macbook years ago that they haven't been trying to surpass Thinkpad for "keyboard experience".
To me it seems that Apple should care highly about keyboards as they clearly care enough to be opinionated about many aspects of their products. They don't seem the least bit interested in anything but thinness in keyboards even on the iMac. The keyboard on my 2015 is OK, so is the keyboard on the iMac. Neither is good in my limited personal opinion, but OK enough for daily use.
That the new one felt worse, was surprisingly loud, and turned out to be ridiculously fragile in a normal environment is quite some achievement.
Keyboards always get pretty diverse opinions so I doubt we'll agree. Touchpads are much easier - Apple have always done consistently better than anyone until the '16 which became newly prone to false activations.
Couldn’t agree more about Lenovo keyboards. Every time I see someone extolling how amazing their keyboards are, I can only think about how they have been so affected by the Thinkpad reputation that they have no independent thoughts left on the matter. Maybe you could say Lenovo keyboards are the best available on today’s laptops, but that’s only because the level of quality in general has gone down so much.
> I feel like Thinkpad keyboards have gone steadily downhill since the ~2005 T4x series (I still use a T43 on a regular basis, and do side-to-side comparisons between it and newer machines)
Actually I think that Lenovo finally nailed the keyboard in 2017/2018. I think it's a lot better than even the venerable IBM Thinkpad keyboards. The travel/response feels a lot better to me.
I prefer the old feel and travel, as it's more like a proper keyboard, but not enough to avoid the Thinkpad chiclet on feel.
What kills it for me is the rearrangement needed by going from 7 row (with web forward/back and a proper editing block), to 6 rows with keys jammed in wherever they can make a space.
If they had done the redesign of keycaps and backlighting, but kept 7 row, it would have been stellar...
I'm sorta in the same boat, but after Google announced Chromebooks will be getting first party support for Linux apps that is tempting me. I occasionally work on Linux, but I would love something more polished like ChromeOS.
People complain about the short throw and the bottoming out but they are typing too damned hard. I find that by exerting smaller amounts of force with less travel that I can type on the butterfly keyboard without triggering my RSI symptoms, by contrast my Cherry MX Brown with double o rings requires so much physicality to get work done that it hurts after extended use.
The Lenovo T25 has an "old-style" Lenovo/IBM ThinkPad keyboard.
Separately, there are do-it-yourself modifications to stick one onto e.g. a -30 model ThinkPad.
I've held off due to the circa $2000 price (it's been a tough winter, financially), one generation older tech stack, and still somewhat under-performant display. But I really hope to pick one up before they're gone. Even this ThinkPad "chicklet" keyboard I'm typing on doesn't compare.
I wish -- hope -- Lenovo might continue to include one such model in the lineup, each year (T25 -- 25 for twenty-fifth anniversary). For people who really rely on heavy -- and comfortable, fast, accurate, reliable -- use of the keyboard, there is no comparison.
My W520's keyboard is pretty fantastic. I just need something that travels better (doesn't have to be a "wafer") and has longer battery life.
I just bought a used 2013 MBP, because why not? It's not like a new one has more RAM, or a bigger SSD, and new cpu is only 16% faster. But it does have a shitty keyboard and no function keys.
At the start of the year I bought a full spec 15" MBP. Two weeks in the B key stopped working so I took it to the Apple Store and they literally gave me a brand new one. Why did the B key stop working? Apparently it was a crumb. So I had a total system replacement of a £3000 laptop because of a crumb. Insane. Yes I know the broken one will be repaired and re-sold as a refurb but still that is just crazy.
I ended up returning the MBP for a refund anyway as I really didn't enjoy the new butterfly keyboard. I found it quite painful to type on for more than about 20 minutes.
I strongly feel the latest generation MBP is a step backwards in what a "professional" wants and needs from such a machine. Sure make the consumer MacBook model as thin as possible but don't butcher the Pro model to save 0.2mm by introducing a god awful keyboard and removing a bunch of crucial ports so we have to rely on bloody dongles!
Ninja Edit: Forgot to mention how much I hated the TouchBar. What sucks is the actual idea of the touchbar is pretty nice but replacing the function keys with it on a Pro machine is idiotic. They could have easily added the touchbar while keeping the function keys but decided not to probably to be minimal/simple.
I find it endlessly confusing how Apple focuses only on how a machine visually looks and gives little thought to how it physically feels.
I never enjoy typing on a mac laptop - the metal palm rest tends to feel either very cold or rather hot, the sharp edge of the laptop is uncomfortable to the wrists, and the keyboard itself is very shallow and unsatisfying to type on.
> the sharp edge of the laptop is uncomfortable to the wrists
This touches on a minor point I don't see brought up much: the corners of the notch to open the lid on the new Touch Bar MBP are surprisingly sharp, sharper than the previous generations. Combined with other similarly sharp, almost unfinished edges around the machine, I see this as a sign of Jony Ive's disdain for human users versus his aluminium designs.
Typing this on a MBP w/T; I don't particular hate/love the chicklet feel, but I absolutely HATE the cursor keys. Seriously, the two-in-one up-/down-keys are horrible.
The touch bar itself boggles my mind in stupidity and had I had a choice I'd have skipped it. I wish I could get 17" matte display with a 2007-era keyboard.
I was angry enough to get a Dell XPS 15 (9550), but that's just ok and it's really hard to leave macOS behind.
I thought Jony was off designing the spaceship and left his underlings to design the products the past couple years. Apple made a point of saying he's back now.
Without delving too much into Apple Kremlinology, while all product design is a team effort, Jony Ive was always the head and face of Apple's. He and his underlings have a shared perspective and culture, and the corner issue brings to mind an earlier example:
During the development of the first iPhone, Ive and his team became enamored with the look of an extruded aluminum prototype. Even though it was immediately apparent that the model's sharp edges made it physically painful to use as a phone, they persisted in trying to push the design and paper over its principal practical problems. It took Steve Jobs to finally step in, point out the obvious, and check Jony Ive's worst tendencies. [0]
Steve Jobs is gone, and nobody is left to fulfill his roles.
> a step backwards in what a "professional" wants and needs from such a machine
An observation: I'm typically working in coffeeshops; over the last couple of years the share of MacBooks in those places went from nearly 100% to like virtually none. Hipsters and younger people are all on Windows 10 now. Rarely you can see a Mac, and it almost invariably is of a previous generation.
To add my own anecdotal data point, here in the Mountain View and Palo Alto area it used to be 95% MacBooks in coffee shops 6-7 years ago and now it is more like 80-85%. Pretty much every laptop that isn't a MacBook is either a ThinkPad, Dell Latitude/XPS, or Microsoft Surface.
> I found it quite painful to type on for more than about 20 minutes
I keep hearing this. I've been using the new keyboard for > 1 yr and I literally have no complaints. I have adjusted my typing style to a bit lighter of a touch as the keys don't travel as far, but I've not experienced any discomfort.
> I have adjusted my typing style to a bit lighter of a touch as the keys don't travel as far...
At work I’m surrounded by people rattling away in the latest MBP (I don’t use one myself).
From listening to the room as machines were replaced, I actually got the impression that the opposite was true; it sounded like people were typing harder.
From trying one of the keyboards out, I found myself typing more percussively too. Without tactile feedback I ended up slapping the keys pretty hard to be certain about actuation/bottoming-out (the same thing?).
I guess it just goes to show how different everyone types from each other and how well of a compromise the previous keyboard turned out to be, even if unintentionally.
I suppose. On the other hand if you type on every keyboard like it's an IBM Model M, any keyboard that isn't a high travel mechanical keyboard is going to be uncomfortable. I adjusted my typing style to fit the new MacBook keyboard, and I have no complaints.
The DataHand has magnetically held keys. If you press them too gently, they don't move at all, so there's no chance of pushing them a bit but them not registering.
When you push hard enough to move them, they pass through an optical sensor and then can move a lot further, so there's effectively no equivalent to keys bottoming out, or the feeling of jamming your finger into a hard surface.
It's such a good design to invert both those problems and make them non-problems, I'm a bit sad I haven't seen it anywhere else on a more common style of keyboard.
I think the problem for me is that I use several different machines and they all feel similar enough that when I had to use the MBP it was so different that I never got totally used to it. Maybe it if were my only machine I would be okay with it in the long term. Guess I will never know though.
I found the keyboard to be amazing for the first week.
But the clicky punch immediately degrades even if you don't get a nanoparticle under one of your keys. They regress quickly to a mushy tactile feel.
It's as if nobody at Apple tested the keyboard for more than a week, nor outside of a pristine cleanroom. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if that's the root cause of all this, because I could see why someone would think the keyboard was an upgrade if that was the extent of the QA testing.
If the keyboard felt like it did the first week but for four years, I would consider it an upgrade. But it's a comically far cry from that.
I agree that the keyboard doesn't have quite the same "snap" that it did when it was new, but I still honestly prefer it to the older MacBook keyboards. Whenever I type on one they feel so squishy in comparison.
I really doubt they didn't do long-term QA on the mechanism, but I could definitely see how their emphasis on secrecy might have kept these keyboards in a room that was far cleaner than a normal laptop environment in many ways.
Indeed, that's actually why I love it -- typing with a lighter touch means I can actually type for much longer than the old keyboard, without discomfort.
My experience is that people who LOVE touch bars, keyboards with less travel, touch screens instead of keyboards, and iPads instead of laptops - are less human. I'm not saying people with these preferences are not human, but I would just argue that they are less human than someone who fully experiences the humanity of a quality keyboard and mouse. Whereas someone who experiences no reduction in humanity when these pleasures are removed should be questioned! What do you experience as pleasures in your life? Do you enjoy counting grains of sand? Do you experience more discomfort when your super flat keyboard is dirty than when someone replaces your more ergonomic instrument with a less ergonomic one? Someone has to ask the hard questions! ;)
Similar story here. I managed to spill coffee on my MacBook Pro 2015, which I had been really happy with -- great performance (max out with CPU, RAM and 1TB SSD).
I got the new 2017 model, and really hated the keyboard, but also really disliked the Touch Bar and lack of Escape button. I'm not at all concerned with the lack of USB or SD card reader, though I was disappointed with the lack of performance improvements over the 2015 model.
So I returned it, and bought a brand new 2015 model. Except it turns out they changed it! It no longer has a dedicated AMD graphics card. It's an integrated Intel Iris Pro with less VRAM, and it seems really underpowered compared to the old AMD Radeon on my previous model.
The lower graphics performance is especially noticeable if you turn the Retina setting to scaled (like 1.5x, which I prefer). It's not just that apps render a bit more slowly -- I get the sense that there's some GPU memory transfer bottleneck that's happening that causes sudden pauses in UI rendering across the entire OS. And it's something that makes the whole computer slow down with use; rebooting (or restarting Safari) speeds things up again. Typing in Slack or VSCode has noticeable lag, and switching between Spaces results in a significant pause, and the switching animation stutters something fierce. I would go so far as to say that scaled Retina is unusable on this model.
I looked the model ID, and it's "MacBookPro11,4". The model that has a dedicated GPU is "MacBookPro11,5" and was discontinued in October 2016. So it looks like it's impossible to get a 2015 MBP with a dedicated graphics card right now. You can't plug in an external GPU, either; while High Sierra now supports it, it's only supported on the newer models via Thunderbolt 3.
This is really frustrating. I've been using Apple laptops since 2006, and this is the first time when I can genuinely say that none of their products are good enough. I've even looked at the possibility of switching to a Linux laptop, but Linux distros are nowhere near macOS in terms of cohesiveness and UI, and while the laptop models I've looked at (ThinkPad T480S, Dell XPS 15, System76 Oryx Pro) admittedly have much better specs than Apple, none of them stand out as being particularly good.
I'm now hoping that Apple will see sense this year and offer a non-Touch-Bar model with some kind of non-butterfly keyboard. But I'm not hopeful.
Apple didn't really change the 2015 model, but they stopped selling the top-end model with the Radeon GPU. I've bought the Radeon model used last year and I'm also having performance issues. Maybe it's partially an issue with High Sierra in general? Just yesterday I had to reboot because the macOS window manager crawled to a halt. IntelliJ IDEs have become much slower on external HiDPI screens too.
As much as I love the 2015 model, I've started moving some workflows to a boring gaming box running Linux. It's amazing how easily NVIDIA cards can push those pixels.
> So I had a total system replacement of a £3000 laptop because of a crumb. Insane.
What is more insane is that the KB is riveted to the top of the shell. If you want to replace it (good luck finding a kb) you have to drill out all the rivets.
I have a Macbook 12" that's a couple of years old and it's probably my favorite computer out of all the ones I've owned in my life. The keyboard doesn't annoy me, even though my go-to when I'm at a desk is a chunky Topre board (HHKB2). I don't think it's exactly the same as the one in the more recent Pro models, but it's similar in terms of what people don't like.
The thing I really don't like on the new MBPs (like my work machine) is definitely the Touch Bar. I think it's a terrible idea and not worth including on any machine to begin with, let alone if it's going to replace the physical escape and F-keys.
If it becomes impossible to buy the top-spec Apple ultralight laptop without a Touch Bar, I'm probably done buying Apple products. Same if I have any stupid issues with my current machine before I get a few more years out of it.
I've got no idea why the new macbook is the way it is. Apple really missed a sweet opportunity to move the mac and iphone over to usb-c at the same time. They could have easily added two usb-c ports while keeping a usb-a port and the SD card reader. At the same time, they could have moved the iphone to usb-c and converge a lot of their designs into something clean and easy. I'm typing this on an xps-13 while charging both my phone and laptop over usb-c with the same charger and cable.
Instead, apple now has multiple incompatible cables and devices. Not only has the rest of the industry caught up to them, apple has regressed in the meantime.
There are multiple points of view. As for me, I'm fine with Lightning: mechanically it's the best connector I've ever seen. But moving "everything" to USB-C means that exactly ZERO of my USB devices are pluggable into the new laptops.
Also, please don't start with the "but somebody needs to move the world forward" narrative. Move the world all you want, but don't hold me hostage. And "moving the world forward" does not require dropping existing USB connectors.
I'm also amused by the "oh, in a year or so every device will have switched to USB-C" narrative. Guess what, it's quite likely that my JTAG programmers, logic analyzers, USB microscopes, USB ports on oscilloscopes, 3dconnexion spacemouse, label printer, sheet-fed scanner, barcode scanners, and at least 20 kinds of development boards will NOT switch to USB-C anytime soon, and most of them quite likely never will (ever tried routing a USB-C connector on a 2-layer board?). Oh, and I wrote that list just by looking around me, I probably have even more devices.
> Lightning: mechanically it's the best connector I've ever seen.
Sorry, that’s only true because you mostly see the male end of connectors. Lightning has multiple severe design problems:
- Cables that plug into things have moving parts. There are springy electrical contacts and springy mechanical bits that hold the connector in. These parts wear out. A good design puts all the moving parts on the cable’s end, which may be less attractive but means that, when they inevitably wear out, replacing the cable solves the problem. With Lightning, the parts that wear out are in the socket, where they’re out of sight but can’t be easily replaced.
- There’s something wrong with the electrical contact design. Even on the Apple store, all the male Lightning connectors that aren’t very, very new look a bit scorched on one of the center pins. I don’t know whether this is due to arcing when the connection is made or broken or due to insufficient contact area or pressure.
To add insult to injury, when the socket fails, Apple will not replace it. Either you get a third-party replacement or you replace the whole phone.
Sorry, but even disregarding compatibility, Lightning is attractive but is otherwise shitty.
> A good design puts all the moving parts on the cable’s end
Are there any of those? I think every cable I can think of or have owned in my life is the other way around with the moving parts in the box part not the cable. I guess there's more space for moving parts in the box bit.
It's true I had a lighting socket pack up and replaced - the repair shop said it was quite common.
Also I'm on an Anker lighting cable as the plastic Apple uses is rubbish, cracks, gets patched with sellotape, dies in the end. PowerLine II is good - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLiSwyknmks.
> Are there any of those? I think every cable I can think of or have owned in my life is the other way around with the moving parts in the box part not the cable. I guess there's more space for moving parts in the box bit.
USB Type C and Micro USB come to mind. On Micro USB, there are very visible springy clips on the outside of the plug. I'm not entirely sure what's going on with USB Type A, but I think the springy part of the contact is in the plug and the leaf spring that holds the plug in may be in the socket.
I'd have expected Lightning to remain but the other end of the cable should've either switched to USB-C or some sort of adapter been included in the box.
As things stand you could walk into an Apple Store, spend the better part of four thousand pounds on a MBP and an iPhone X, and get home to find out that you can't plug one into the other without Apple wanting to take another £35 for a USB-C to Lightning cable (obviously other cables are available but that's beside the point).
That's absolute madness and destroys the idea that Apple hardware exists within any sort of ecosystem.
I'm actually shocked that Apple doesn't offer an exchange program -- bring us your USB-A to Lightening cable and we'll switch it out for a USB-C cable.
> *I’d have expected Lightning to remain but the other end of the cable should've either switched to USB-C...”
Use the iPad Pro 29W USB-C charger (or Anker’s USB-C chargers, etc.) and Apple’s USB-C to Lightning “Power Delivery” (USB-C PD) cable, you can ultra fast charge iPhone X, iPads, etc., and yes, you can charge it from current Macs or other brand laptops with USB-C.
My point, I suppose, was that one of those cables should be in the box.
The charger's neither here nor there for the sake of my argument: as things stand, you can plug your phone into the charger and the connection between the two can be USB-A, USB-C or Jony Ive's finger for all it matters.
This was the most frustrating thing for me. I have a new touchbar mac and iphone x and when i realized i needed a usb-c to lighting cable and went to the apple store in downtown sf they didn't have any in the store. this was ~6 months after the iphone came out so it wasn't even an initial rush related issue. crazy.
Lightning might be great mechanically, but from a practical usage point of view it's a pain.
Wired headphone solutions are just nasty. It's gone from a position where I could use the same 3.5mm jack on basically any phone, laptop or PC, to a situation where I either go for lots of dongles, which is an extra expense and also tends not work perfectly or I buy multiple sets of headphones for different devices, which isn't great if you want moderately expensive ANC kit.
The idea that I can buy an Apple laptop, and Apple phone and then have to buy multiple additional dongles and cables to effectively connect the two is just bizarre.
Realistically it would be better if Apple standardised on USB-C for phone and had a mix of USB-A/USB-C on laptops for a period of time whilst peripherals catch up.
Even wireless headphones don't solve this problem. You still need to buy a seperate aptX low latency dongle. Obviously you can't expect every cheapass bluetooth headphone to come with aptX LL but on a $1000+ laptop or $800+ phone? Adding an aptX LL transceiver is the bare minimum you should do if you care even the tiniest bit about pushing wireless. Regular bluetooth is terrible. It's a tradeoff between convenience and quality, not an obvious incremental upgrade that you should always choose. It's strange that even in 2018 wireless still isn't better or equal than wired in every situation yet it's being forced down our throats through removal of universally compatible ports.
Also, please don't start with the "but somebody needs to move the world forward" narrative.
What that really means is "we want to keep selling you stuff and convince you that you really need it." In terms of progress I don't think we've been "moving forward" for many years now --- we're just churning around the same place.
It's extremely easy to wire up a USB-C connector to any legacy USB controller, at least by my reading of the relevant specs. https://imgur.com/a/tL5lDZ5 is what you need logically (I think).
As I wrote: "ever tried routing a USB-C connector on a 2-layer board?"
There is nothing "extremely easy" about USB-C. And even if it were easy, that doesn't solve the problem of connecting all my devices in various circumstances. I don't want to live in a dongle-cable world. They should have kept two USB ports for compatibility.
My work recently bought me a new laptop. I could have picked anything. I went with the now-3-years-old mbp, with sane ports. The fact they still sell them new probably means there are a lot of people who think like me.
If I’d purchased a new model, I would’ve also needed to purchase a fistful of dongles. It makes no sense.
And I would have had to use the awful keyboard. I don’t like the feel of it, but I can deal with that. What I can’t deal with is the keys randomly failing due to minor dirt, as so many reports indicate. I travel for work and it would be a catastrophe if the space key stopped working.
I also really wish they would add a lightning port to the mbp, so I could take just one set of headphones with me.
As written below, we've done the same for some devs here. The 2015 model just as too many useful features that are now missing for no apparent reason. The new MBP has tinny sound, no magsafe, no hdmi, crappy keyboard, failing usb-c ports, the whole dongle fiasco.. it's just not a good value proposition for the price, compared to the predecessor.
I think replacing the proprietary magsafe plug with standard USB-C is a good idea, but not if the implementation is failure-prone. Tangentially related, I wonder why they haven't replaced the proprietary plug on their phones and tablets with USB-C.
I have to agree with jwr on this one. Replacing the magsafe was not a good idea. I've had my MBPr for 5 years now. I can't even count the number of times I didn't need to think about it being connected.
As a dedicated notebook user for 14 years now. The previous MBPr was the sweet spot. I'm holding onto my current macbook and refuse to upgrade. I hope some sanity returns to Apple and soon.
I think the chances of MagSafe coming back are slim. I’m debating getting the last updated 15 with the old style keyboard and MagSafe to hold me over for a while...
My Magsafe has been yanked out at least hundreds of times. I think it is a fantastic solution and I really do not understand what is "better" about the USB-C connector?
There's no real reason that Apple couldn't have had USB-C and some sort of magnetic detachment, like MagSafe - a bunch of third parties sell cables that do exactly that [1].
Because it's a standard. You're no longer required to spend a lot of money on Apple's proprietary chargers, anyone can make a good charger.
And you can get magsafe-like USB-C chargers. I don't see why, given that option, you'd choose to limit your options to only being able to buy a legitimate charger from Apple, and that charger only being useful for that one device.
If it has been hacked out so much, isn't that a sign that the power cable is in the way? I mean, I place my laptop it's power cord such that nobody can trip on it.
I've had the MacBook Pro (Touch Bar) for almost a year now at work, and honestly haven't been too bothered about the ports.
I leave a HyperDrive[0] on my desk to connect my screens and power and very really need to plug anything else in. I use a wireless trackpad and keyboard, wireless headphones.
What else do you need to plug in? I have unlimited cloud storage, all my code is in GitHub, photos in Google Photos. iPhone backs up to iCloud and Google Photos.
If I do need to connect something, I have USB ports on my HyperDrive, but I just never use them. I charge my devices with a wall charger so they can charge if I'm in meetings etc. and get more power from there anyway.
I did, in 2012. I bought a $1,400 MBP because I was replacing $1,000 non-Apple laptops every 12-18 months due to mechanical issues - keyboards, hinges, power ports, etc. That laptop lasted until late 2016 when my daughter spilled a quart of milk onto it. If not for that I’d probably still have it.
Today’s MBPs? There’s no rationalizing the cost for me.
During an internship I had a coworker that got the 2016 MBPr while I got the 2015 MBPr.
He literally had to haul his docking station to every meeting where he had to present because none of the meeting rooms had thunderbolt/usb-c adapters.
Well at least it's nice for Macbook & Android users. I don't really like the Apple ecosystem but for my current work it's much easier to have a macbook. Now I can charge my Google Pixel and my Macbook with the same cable.
I love how Apple is finally shooting itself in the foot by the atrocious repairability of their devices. The keyboard in the A1706/7/8 MBP is extremely time-consuming to replace because you need to get your dremel tool out and undo an umpteen of tiny bolts and then replace them with tiny screws as this video demonstrates: https://youtu.be/YMueATtTcQg?t=879
In previous models, you could at least simply rip the keyboard out like this (which was of course an imposition as well): https://youtu.be/2PyhbiwUkE0?t=1229
Imagine if the keyboard was simply screwed on in the first place. The keyboard plate would maybe need to be 1 mm thicker, making the entire device thicker by as much, but an AASP worker could simply replace the thing in a 5 minute job (instead of 2 hours, i.e. never).
Being design-forward is fine, but Apple fell completely into the trap of "function follows form". The in retrospect aptly-shaped "trashcan" Mac Pro was probably the ultimate expression of this. But at this point they're not a computer company, so the products need to be viewed in this light. They've decided to be a luxury brand, in which form is in fact more important than function, and the correctness of this decision is shown by their financials. But when you buy a Macbook Pro, you have to be aware that you're essentially buying a Louis Vuitton, or - dare I say it? - Burberry laptop. It's meant to be seen, not used.
Macbook Pros still have best screens, best touchpads and unix operating system that just works and is perfectly compatible with the hardware.
The only thing that comes close is XPS oine from Dell. Thinkpads with linux just can't compare (bad screens, software trouble with "reasonable resolution", no MS office, etc). Anything with Windows can't compare, since who would want to use spying os with ads in start menu?
I would love anything as good as MBP but there just isn't anything.
This is my precise dilemma. I want all of what glogla champions, but I have tried the new keyboards for an hour or so in the stores and they are like typing on ice.
There are essentially two input devices in a modern computer: Apple has nailed the trackpad, but they've flubbed the keyboard.
They managed to screw the trackpad, though. It's too big in the latest model, and falsely recognizes too many touches.
And don't get me started on the force touch which is on by default, very inconsistent and mapped to "look up in dictionary" because that's exactly what anyone would want from this feature.
Why did they do this? Their touch pads have been the best in the world for a long time, and they screwed it up. Another big one for me was the removal of the magnetic charging port. That was the single greatest part of the computer and they took it away.
Best screens? Perhaps one of the best, but not the best in my personal opinion. I really like the 3:2 aspect ratio / resolution combination on the latest Surface Book.
There were some pretty devastating security flaws in the recent version that are eerily reminiscent of the kind other OSes saw in the 80s and 90s (Plaintexting passwords)
Apple fell [...] Mac Pro was probably the ultimate expression of this.
You should take a look at, well, Apple's 30-odd-year catalog. Various industrial design screwups pop up fairly regularly and they're invariably interpreted as a profound insight into whatever it is people think Apple is doing horribly wrong at the particular time.
Anyone know what this means for non-US residents? We're in Canada and my partners 12" Macbook keyboard has failed 3 times, requiring the complete replacement of her Macbook once and the whole top-case twice. Which caused plenty of downtime for repairs, usually weeks at a time. Now she's experiencing small problems for the 4th time.
Maybe if it succeeds someone can create a class-action in Canadian courts...
My spouse who's a Canadian lawyer said a number of Canadian laws have referenced American (and historically more importantly British) law as examples during proceedings but they can't be cited directly as precedent case-law.
It's just a helpful data point when establishing new laws and assisting judges to form their legal opinions in cases without existing examples within Canadian law... and I'd assume also inspire Canadian lawyers to form their own class actions when they've already been tested in American courts.
I was just curious if foreign parties could play any role in American ones, which I doubt is the case.
I returned a new MacBook to go back to my old one until Apple fixes this.
Purchasing a can of air is ridiculous - it's not 1995. We might as well buy some rubbing alcohol to clean out the inside of the mouse balls while we're at it.
The poor keyboard experience even inspired me to try a new Surface Pro. Ironic, because it was Vista that drove me to a Mac. If the Surface reliably ran MacOS with updates... I may have found my perfect device.
As much as I have enjoyed every Macbook I've owned, I can't recommend buying any Macbook for the foreseeable future.
A keyboard guaranteed to have issues is unacceptable at this price point, or any really.
Apparently, Apple filed a new patent fixing the key/dust issue.
Will be checking the new refresh to see if any steps are made forward, but wait for the rattlesnake to bite the other fella first for a few months.
I have one at work. The keyboard is so loud that I can’t type in meetings anymore. If people didn’t know I was bored before, holy shit do they know now.
I also find the new touchpad twitchy and not as good at ignoring palm input.
My experience is the same. The touchbar on my 12” MB is so sensitive the slightest brush will make the cursor jump up to a different position. Very frustrating. And the keyboard is quite loud. Hate the arrow keys too, can’t tell by touch which one is up or down. Had they kept the right-left arrow keys half height, would be super-easy to orient my hand by touch.
I noticed the same thing - I usually put every new keyboard through a typeracer.com test or 10.. I guess it gives the feeling of being very productive.
Agreed. I'm itching to do that, and will likely end up with a chromebook.
I hope and suspect that the Linux Subsystem for Windows (debian based) will eventually eat all of Windows and provide complete linux support (battery, resume, etc).
I had the previous generation of MBP (late 2012, retina) and am now using the latest (mid 2017), both of the 15" variety.
I have had zero problems with my keyboard, though I acknowledge that this might just be luck.
I actually really like that all the ports are Thunderbolt 3/USB-C... but I wish more things supported USB-C to match. Like if the phone were USB-C, and if flash drives were USB-C, I'd be set. It's frustrating to have to carry dongles around, for sure. I loved the SD card slot and HDMI port on the previous generation because I used them somewhat regularly, so lacking those is a disappointment. I'd be much happier if I had four T-3 ports plus the SD card slot and HDMI port. The ability to charge out of any port is actually nifty, though; I use both sides regularly.
There are a lot of things I like better, though. I actually prefer the new keyboard (I hated how the previous generation's keys wiggled). The new screen is really phenomenal. The larger touchpad is really nice. The lessened weight is also a plus. Touch ID is pretty cool, though I'm very uninterested in the TouchBar (no strong feelings either way). And otherwise they're practically the same, except for moderately improved internal specs.
For me, the new model has been a net positive. I think if I were having keyboard issues like so many others, that opinion would change, but with my present luck I am happy with it.
They have beat sales estimates on the MBP and still show growth despite a contracting market. A few people raging on hacker news is not representative of the market, nor even software developers as a whole.
A few people raging on Hacker News is not representative of all influencers, either.
As a counterpoint, my current MBP (more than a year old) is half the weight of my old one, and while the keyboard is worse, it's not significant enough for me to jettison the entire ecosystem, which is great. The Touch Bar is fine for me, though I've configured it to act like my old machine.
>it's not significant enough for me to jettison the entire ecosystem
But significant enough that I bought a five-year-old used MBP rather than buy a new one. I don't care about weight: I miss the 17". And improved resolution? It's the same in 2017 as it was in 2013.
2017 MBP compared to used 2013 MBP
CPU +16%
GPU + 200%
RAM + 0%
Display + 0%
Weight 4.46lb vs 4.02lbs
Keyboard failure rate: +100%
Cost difference $2,000.
So basically unless you need graphics, get a used one.
As I said, I’ve bought every second revision of these things for many years, I’m on #4 or 5, clearly I like their products. But what I’m thinking is this:
You know, Great Leader has been gone a long time. We were all afraid the wheels would come off and they didn’t, but they haven’t really introduced anything big or new since, so... dunno where that leaves us, but whatever. We’re talking about laptops anyway.
Bad hardware happens. There was bound to be something eventually. Especially when your lead designer is off fucking around with buildings (I still don’t know what upper management was thinking there). But he’s back now and a redesign isn’t due for at least another year so fingers crossed.
Two bad in a row, then I’ll start to worry. Until then I’m overdue for a new tablet and then a new phone in the next year. I’ll be busy with those for a bit.
I wish there is something as World Wide Class Action.
The biggest problem isn't with the design issues here. Apple is not perfect, every new design will come with its own set of problem and trade offs. Normally most of these are Net positive gain. This time around I am pretty sure the Keyboard is mostly a step backwards, because reliability is the most important thing for a Keyboard.
And what is worst is that people has been complaining about it since 2015, and in 2016, then 2017, two version later they still haven't done a thing, apart from making the keyboard louder to make you think you pressed the button.
There is still a lot to love for the iPhone. ( Even that is going downhill, but still loveable ) But Mac has been on the sideline with no attention and care.
I would beg Tim Cook please do not come out and say you Love or you care about the Mac. You are no Steve Jobs and do not have Reality Distortion Field. When you say something like you you are only really taking a piss and add insult to injury.
And last note: Please prove me wrong in WWDC 2018.
They say they care, their actions have proven otherwise. They need more than a promise of a new Mac Pro and an iMac Pro which starts at $5000 to win back their most loyal Mac fans after years, literally years of neglect.
And after this, they are gonna need years to rebuild that trust.
I mean, before these new MacBooks what was the number one complaint on this website about Macs? They don't make pro machines anymore, they don't care about pro users, etc.
Now, as soon as they actually do something about that, no one cares anymore.
They may "care" but nowhere near to the level they used to. It's clear that they get more revenue from the iPhone and spend most of there money there (understandable), vs the Mac line.
Yikes. On pretty much any ThinkPad except for the X1 series, replacing the keyboard is a five minute task you can do yourself, and Lenovo will overnight you a new keyboard. The only tool needed is a #1 Philips screwdriver.
Alas, the X1 Carbon and X1 Yoga abandoned this design. The keyboard is no longer a CRU (Customer Replaceable Unit). It's a complete teardown to get to it. But if you get the onsite service option they will send someone out the next business day to replace it.
Ive brought my 2017 mbp to the Apple store in soho (NYC) twice to get stuck keys fixed. Both times it took about 10mns. (and they said they fix the new keys very frequently...)
Two keys are failing on my MBP 15" (one rocks and sticks; the other is loose on one corner and occasionally falls out). I have AppleCare and my options were to:
- Send or deliver the laptop for repair and wait ~1-2 weeks for its return.
- Pay ~$35 for two replacement keys and butterfly mechanisms from an online spares shop and attempt the repair myself.
I chose to pay the $35 — the keys should be here next week.
I'm now concerned this will recur after the fix unless I only use an external keyboard, which seems daft for a laptop.
After 15+ years of buying Apple laptops I'm seriously considering making the repair myself then selling the laptop, and buying a Lenovo or Dell. I type 100wpm+ and good keyboards are so important, but I'd really miss several macOS-specific apps (Sketch, iTerm, Airmail).
I recently went through the same Mac to Windows conversion.
For a Sketch replacement, try Lunacy by Icons8 -- it's a Sketch clone for Windows (not quite as good, but pretty damn close, and it opens even complex sketch files perfectly). It's also free.
For an iTerm replacement, use ConEmu with WSL. You'll have to fiddle around with the settings to make it look good, but it's hugely customizable, and then you can run Ubuntu or Arch or whatever else you want natively on Windows.
Someone else in this thread tried a self-repair, it failed, and he/she had to pay $700 in the end to get it fixed. If you want to sell your MBP anyway, get your new laptop / replacement, then send in your MBP for repair.
I think the only rational option is to sell the laptop after a repair.
I personally would go back to an older model, like the latest Macbook Air that has regular keyboard (I don't think it has butteryfly keys yet).
Otherwise it's a good time to switch. But frankly I was unimpressed with my Thinkpad. Felt like death by a million papercuts whether using Windows or Linux.
I manage a team of roughly 10 devs and I have seen them one at a time get pissed off at their MB Pro and ask to switch to using a Linux machine. The keyboard is always the biggest complaint. I even made our company change its onboarding process to offer the option of buying a Windows laptop and installing some distro of Linux on it instead of just giving everyone a Mac (which they and the rest of Silicon Valley have been doing for years).
I bought my first Thinkpad when I checked out the new MB Pros when they came out in Fall of ‘16. I was so disgusted by the keyboard that I went home and bought my X1 Carbon and learned how to set up a Linux machine (surprisingly easy!)
Apple has really lost its way. They’re selling eye candy now, not work machines.
Do y'all just work on laptops, or do you usually plug in the laptop to an external monitor/keyboard/screen, then use the laptop solely when in meetings/away from your desk?
I couldn't imagine using the new Macbook's keyboard full-time - I've broken the keys (in half) on the 2015 Macbook repeatedly just by typing. For now - and this seems to be the feeling around me, better to use an external keyboard for most of the time.
I personally cannot even touchtype of the 15" keyboard on the new Macbooks, as it differs ever so slightly, but too much from my 13" at home. I'm already mentally-mapping out four other keyboards I work on. I may not be able to do a fifth!
> I've broken the keys (in half) on the 2015 Macbook repeatedly just by typing
What? How?? Like are you just an extremely heavy typist or what?
I've been using my 2017 15-inch MBP for probably multiple hours a day (on average) since August, and I've had no problems. I get that there's a fair amount of luck involved there, but I don't understand how you can literally break the keys just by typing.
"typing" (banging) on them too hard. I have very large, very strong hands, I guess.
The keyboard did develop a separate (but related) issue though: certain key presses weren't being registered, unless I really pressed down HARD. No amount of cleaning seemed to help. I just thought something wrong with my fingers/hands, from typing so much in my life! Was I developing a working disability, akin to carpel tunnel or something?
It was only when I replaced the keyboard in full did I realized my slowness and difficulty in typing was the keyboard, and not me! My WPM count went up almost 2x. I enjoyed writing for pleasure, again.
It is a remote company; our devs are all over the world. So people travel and move around a lot, and as a result use their laptops “naked” a lot of the time. One guy on my team likes to set up a desk in a forest and work outside most of the day using cellular internet.
Maybe it matters less in a co-located space where everyone is at a desk all day.
Nice. Yeah, I can't ever seeing using the new Macbook 15" remotely. It seems so very fragile.
I've taken my 2012, 2013, and 2015 Macbooks on full on offroad bicycle trips without a problem, but the current crop just seems to tip into "too wimpy" territory.
My advice: for less drama, stick to ones with Intel graphics only. I've seen people have great luck with the Thinkpad T and X series and Dell XPS 13.
I use a Dell XPS 15 with a Dell TB16 dock but I'm not sure I would recommend this configuration to everyone: The machine and dock are very picky about what kernel I run, and I can't get the combo working correctly with suspend/resume on Ubuntu 18.04 (sticking with 17.10+kernel 4.15.18 for now). WiFi also needs to be manually reconnected every hour or so.
There’s been a half-dozen LVFS / System76 drama threads[1] in the past week alone. Despite whatever your feelings are on BIOS, the general consensuous from S76 owners are the laptops aren’t that great.
People are so hyperbolic about this whole issue. They have one bad generation of keyboards and people declare that they are selling eye candy, aren't a computer company anymore, etc etc.
This was the last good MBP keyboard: https://goo.gl/images/ZDC9hq. The aluminum style keyboard was a big step back functionally. It was obvious it was done purely for aesthetics. And it's just gotten worse.
Keyboard failed, most likely some dirt or liquid. I was in foreign country so bad situation. Dell technician arrived next day to my hotel and changed keyboard in front of me. They even got correct keyboard layout (czech). This was done as part of basic 2 year warranty, I have no business plan.
I received a DOA monitor from Dell last month and they tried to tell me I could only get it replaced with a refurb, after an hour on the phone they finally agreed to replace it. Then it took literally a month of waiting days between emails asking me to provide bits of info I already provided in the first phone call before the finally delivered it. Why is there PC support so different?
Mostly because their monitors very rarely have issues. I've personally deployed/managed probably over a thousand Dell ultrasharp monitors and over the course of nearly ten years, I've only seen one go bad. And I do remember it was not easy getting it replaced, a relative ordeal compared to ProSupport on the PC. Their PC support is seriously unmatched, I tell everyone to get the Pro support and accidental coverage for laptops, I have many stories of Dell asking no questions and sending brand new replacements. My favorite is the 3k precision laptop that fell off a crane and we sent back essentially a box of whatever was left and two days later had an exact replacement.
XPS 13 is a joke too. Stock Killer WiFi card caused tons of intermittent issues from hibernation wake up fails to browsing issues. Opened up the laptop and swapped out the card with an Intel WiFi card and now it works great. Why bother buying a "premium" laptop if they use crappy parts under the hood?
it sounds like even you were surprised at the astoundingly good service you received (in a bad situation) that exceeded all your expectations. Not sure why that makes an unrelated company (Apple) a joke? I mean it seems irrelevant.
Next day on-site service is a standard for business laptops, I expect that. I was surprised it was for free, dirty keyboard is not usually covered in basic warranty.
Apple is a joke because it sells 'premium' products, with low quality and bad service. I really do not want to digg out harddrive from my laptop, before sending it somewhere, to get it back some time in future. Especially for something trivial like broken keyboard.
I'm trying to understand your expectations. You wrote:
>Next day on-site service is a standard for business laptops, I expect that. I was surprised it was for free
Do you really mean this? If Apple had charged you then next-day on-site service would have been a good experience? It's only because this was not even a possibility in this story that you are saying they're a joke?
just trying to understand your expectations here. (And FYI I don't have any relationship with Apple, Dell, or any other parties we're discussing.)
- As far as I know Apple does not even offer next-day on-site repairs as paid service. You have to send your laptop somewhere. Giving laptop with sensitive information out of my hands is not an option!
- Someone else wrote here that it costs $500 to replace keyboard on Macbook (needs new casing). That is a joke!
- It is not possible to replace keyboard on new Macbooks without major dissassembly. So on-site keyboard replacement is not possible even theoretically. Dell does everything onsite, including motherboard or display replacement.
- Next day on-site service is a standard in business environment. It applies to laptops, machines, trucks... No joke here, stuff breaks, stuff must be repaired, show must go on...
- I personally expect to have next-day on-site as an option. I would pay premium in case of emergency. In this case it was not urgent, but very nice surprise. Apple is a joke because they do not even offer that..
Thanks for your answers. So $500 to replace the keyboard is too much. Out of curiosity, for your use as a business user would next-day on-site replacement for $150 been acceptable? If not $150 then how much?
(I realize it sounds like I'm doing market research but I'm just interested in your view and have no professional affiliation with this sector.)
honestly, I dont know. This stuff is usually negotiated in bulk, or as insurance. I would pay even $1000 if its an emergency. $150 on-site if parts are $50 is very reasonable price.
My point is that macbook is not easily serviceable machine.
On Dell I will replace battery myself in a few months, very easy.
Hi, I had a sleep on it. I thought about something. So, a few things about your responses made it clear you're not a native speaker of English - which is fine. I think I didn't consider the possibility that you're just using a word wrong. Based on your more detailed response, I don't think you consider Apple's service options "a joke". Here is an online definition of a joke (in this sense):
>informal
>a person or thing that is ridiculously inadequate.
>"public transport is a joke"
Perhaps I am wrong and you find it "ridiculously" inadequate, but from your comments it sounds more like you consider it sub-par or not competitive.
Let me think about if I can think of something Apple has done that's a joke. (I just Googled one.) So, the Apple III had no fan even though it needed one (engineers had miscalculated its heat profile) and as a result had a 100% failure rate. Its chips would melt out of their sockets.[1] One official solution to reseat the chips was to lift the machine 3 inches and drop it, to reseat the chips. This was in official company support documents.
That's a joke. (The story we're commenting under about failing keyboards might also qualify - but the support option itself doesn't seem to match this definition.)
Basically I think you're just using too harsh of a word for the options we're discussing - better words might be: lacking, inadequate, sub-par, etc.
I can produce good english if necessary, but too lazy on net forums. I understand what joke is.
I (and many of my friends) do consider Apple a joke for enterprise use. Joke in sense of "useless" or "inadequate".
'Genius' in some store does not really cut it.
I'm on my second 13" MBP, after this exact problem. The first one had this problem pretty severely on the 'n' key, the new one has it on 'j' but not as bad.
I had to pay ~$700 for a repair of my work MacBook Pro 15" because I tried to fix the problem by removing the key cap and cleaning under it.
My current work computer is old MacBook Pro. My personal one is Dell XPS 13" and if nothing happens to their design, my next work computer likely will be Dell Precision 15".
I upgrade my two macbook pro 15" every year. I have not upgraded since 2015 due to these keyboards. Come on apple. Go back to the 2015 keyboard... nobody ever complained about that keyboard. This is the risk of "fixing" a problem that doesn't exist... you can actually break something that was reliable.
I have come to appreciate the new keyboard, primarily because the keys feel more stable under fingers than the older keyboards. The shorter travel doesn't bother me, though the additional noise is slightly annoying and the arrow key layout is sub-par. But, on the whole, the keyboard is fine. I've only had mine for three months, so it remains to be seen how it holds up.
It's the other parts of the MBP design that suck: USB-C induced dongle hell is real. The touchbar is a useless gimmick. Battery life isn't great.
If anyone working at Apple is reading this, know that this keyboard has cost you two laptop purchases from me alone.
At work I still use a 15" MBP from four years ago. I would have happily updated by now (if nothing else, because the anti-glare coating peeled off in the center of the screen); instead, I'm going to keep it until you abandon the butterfly keyboard.
And for my personal machine, I have an even older 13" laptop. I was going to buy a 13" MBP, but I won't buy anything that has that butterfly keyboard.
Yeah, this is basically the next step after you notice the "dust" issue. Once debris is down there, it's constantly seesawing and stretching the C-clamps, if I were to guess.
My A, D, R, and T keys will fall right off if I turn over my macbook.
I've been abroad for the four months I've had my macbook pro and haven't had the opportunity to at least take it in for fixing. It gets worse every week. From now on, I'm sticking to buying older macbook hardware now instead of just iPhones.
This is what turns it from a minor issue to a severe one in my mind.
I've killed a few keyboards on older Thinkpads. The replacement part was maybe $50 new, and considerably less for a used one on Ebay. It's not integrated with any other component and can be changed in 10 minutes with only a Phillips screwdriver.
I'm sure integrating the keyboard with the expensive machined aluminum upper case, trackpad and whatever else is built into that component resulted in a laptop that's 1mm thinner.
I have encountered Lenovo integrating the keyboard on other some of their models while helping friends with repairs. Of course, the top case replacement was not so insanely expensive, but it was still a point of frustration from the repair perspective. Certainly disappointed in Apple making the same move here.
I had to swap the keyboard on a coworkers 2012 Macbook Pro once. You had to totally empty the machines guts out and remove about 50 tiny torx screws to get the keyboard out.
I recently got mine replaced under warranty (CMD key was broken!) and was told $280 when I asked what the cost would be otherwise. It's still extortionate. Part number 605-02931 for 13" 2016 MBP.
If the average resolution is at least one $700 keyboard replacement plus 1-2 weeks (and they really should calculate a dollar amount for lost time), this ought to be massive. Yet, like many class actions, this will probably end handing out $3 checks or some other insulting amount.
What we really need to hope is that they’ve been working on a redesign or reverted design for awhile, as these things take years.
When it works, the butterfly is great. Feels a lot better than older MBP keyboards. However, it does have frequent issues. If Apple can fix that while keeping the feeling of typing, it would be great.
Thank god I bought the 2015. Not sure how long to hold out to buy a laptop for my wife. She's a graphics artist and is really really really tired of using Windows.
They still sell the 2015 new, it's a bit hidden, but available. We bought one a few months ago for a dev, after his second MBP had failing USB-C ports.
The new MBP seems like such a weird step back. Sound is worse, keyboard is arguably worse, unnecessarily reductive (and often faulty) ports, gimmicky touch bar, no more magsafe, etc.
My work laptop is a 2015 manufactured late 2017, but I haven’t been able to figure out how/where to buy this directly. Is it only available through business channels?
I'm curious -- does she use that newfangled Windows Surface Knob thingy? How does it work if so? And what's her setup if not (e.g., does she use a separate drawing tablet)?
Hey Apple...please prioritize robustness over thinness...I don’t care if my laptop is super thin and has keys that only have to travel .00000003 millimeters if the thing isn’t going to work after a dust particle falls on it.
My B, and Up/Down Arrow keys were either hard to press or would “double” events. I now have a compressed air bottle next to my desk. It seems to do its job but I never had to do this with my previous MacBooks!
Another issue I face is pain in my first finger joints (right below the fingernail bed) after a long day of typing. Maybe I just have heavy fingers but the old softer keys were less harsh.
Another unrelated (we’ll it is like a keyboard, right? :) issue is the TouchBar requiring two taps for most things. I even have my TouchBar as “static” with just a few buttons.
Yep, I used compressed air on my new MBP maybe 5 times before it stopped "fixing" the issue. Now, after a lot of hassle, I have managed to get Apple to fix the keyboard. MBP has been at an AASP since last week Monday, fingers crossed it'll be fixed soon...
I was pretty tempted to just buy a new MBP from Apple while my current Mac is in repair and return the new one when my Mac got fixed.
The "debris gumming up the keys" issue with the MacBook butterfly keyboard is certainly annoying. But there's a pretty easy fix in my experience: a few strategically delivered bursts from an air duster will clean them out nicely.
Someone should have taken a step back when they were writing that guide and said "Wait, what? Why is this even necessary?" To think that they're recommending that and some people are accepting that as a real solution makes me think the Reality Distortion Field is alive and well.
The worst part for me is the sound, the noise is so much more irritating than other keyboards for some reason. I think perhaps because of the higher pitch.
I've got 15" 2017 and for me the keyboard is not the biggest problem; rather it's the integrated graphics.
Intel HD 630 is so bad that I can spot the lag during scroll in Safari. I switched to Radeon by turning on Photos.app(yes, if you ran Photos it would switch to discrete graphics).
I just can't grasp why the 13" has better integrated graphics than 15".
I haven't had a key fail on my 2017 yet, but the keys are all over the place in terms of how they feel. The delete key works but feels like not actuating properly. The spacebar is awful.
I cuently have tree keys acting up. It's a pain in the ass and as much as I've loved Apple poducts fo almost 3 years, I'm eady to give them the old eave o.
Translation: I currently have three keys acting up. It's a pain in the ass and as much as I've loved Apple products for almost 30 years, I'm ready to give them the old heave ho.
I've had the keyboard replaced twice for the exact same issue, the "B" key kept repeating. I'll probably have to pay extra if it happens again, but already you I've lost about days waiting on the repair since they have to ship it out.
I prefer to use an external keyboard when I can, but that can't be avoided all the time.
Had also one key which was registered as two key strokes every fifth to tenth time. Super annoying and the solution was strange: after vacuum cleaning and blowing the keyboard many times the only thing that helped was resetting the NVRAM with Command + Option + P + R.
I love the butterfly keyboard and one of the key did get stuck and since then I started using compressed air once a week and it looks good so far after an year. So I would suggest the same for others and refrain from eating around your keyboard as much as possible.
I spend a lot of time in the tropics (Thailand) and my keyboard gets stuck keys all the time. It's currently my single quote key. I have tried massaging it, smacking it, faith healing, etc. Nothing helps.
I have a 2015 Macbook Pro and Im sort of anxious because if it breaks, I really don't want to get a butterfly keyboard one. Is there any idea when they will release a successor?
I’ve hated that keyboard with the fiery passion of a thousand suns since the first time I used it and it kept getting worse with every stuck key - one of several reasons why the 12” MB is a “Bimbo” model that looks pretty and works like crap - but the idea of fixing this via lawsuit seems like a bad precedent. Their design sucks and the whole world needs to know how terrible it is but using lawsuits in this way for what ultimately comes down to a product just being kind of crappy seems innovation stifling. Give permission to make crappy things and let the market penalize you for it.
Apple has lots of cash, The vultures(lawyers) who like class action lawsuits will endless look for and try to find a case against Apple so they can extract a lot of money and line their pockets.
I don't understand why this deserves a class action lawsuit. Sure, it's not a great design, but is it bad enough to sue over? All companies release flawed products all the time
Sure, the new keyboard is polarizing. I personally love it, but I get why others hate it.
But nobody seems to be mentioning that the old Macbook keyboards failed too, collected dust and debris just as much (in my personal experience). Probably once a month I'd have to pry off a keycap, blow below, and snap the keycap back on. Half the time it would be the space bar.
Now it's the same thing, except you use a can of compressed air instead [1]. Which I have to do, again, probably once a month. Yes it seems dumb to have to buy one (and it's not like they warn you in advance), but on the other hand, I'm no longer worried about breaking the mechanism when snapping on/off.
