If I work for you, and you don't fire him, I quit. That we're even discussing this has me looking at the door. I'm not sure you can do anything to redeem not having already fired the guy.
If you won't stand up for yourself here, I don't know when you will. I certainly don't know when you would stand up for me.
Get a lawyer and do it right. But fire him.
ALSO: Maybe more important. Get yourself into therapy of some kind. Immediately. Get screened for depression and pyschological disorder.
That you are even asking this question suggests that your priorities and self-image have departed from normal ranges in unhealthy ways. Never mind the goddam business. You aren't even living your life. Something is seriously haywire. If you don't go to work on it you are going to end up a very sad and strange story.
That he's thinking about this situation this hard and is trying to find a safe path through this emotional minefield makes me respect him more than if he had simply fired his employee out of passion. I don't agree that firing his employee outright would show the same strength of character, though I understand your point of view.
You're implying some pretty serious things here, and entirely it's entirely unwarranted. This kind of armchair analysis is really disturbing to read, it's the same with anything legal, when all it becomes amateur hour at the law.
Getting screened for depression and psychological disorders is just rude and callous. You've not factored into your analyss the wife's role in all this or what might have motivated her to have an affair with this employee. All factors which you've completely neglected to consider...
It's even more sad that this is the top comment. All these chest banging alpha make wanna bees
Talking to a psychologist is not a panacea. The sane thing to do, is to talk to the employee and tell him that the __minimum__ you expect from the guy is to hand in his resignation and leave within the hour. Failing which I would have fired him.
There is a specific segment of the enginerd crowd which, in reaction to the realization that they've been passive victims in their own lives, throw the lever all the way to the other side. They become wannabe "alpha males" who reactively criticize any sign of male weakness in others (but not in person, only online) That is, when they're not riding their racing motorcycles in their full body gear, or doing squats. Psych! I mean deadlifts!
What these tough guys don't realize is something which Margret Thatcher best put to words: being powerful is like being a lady; if you have to tell [or show] others you are, you aren't. (paraphrased, from memory)
The OP: "every time I see his face, I feel like that just kills me inside."
We are discussing a situation as postulated. That postulate is a deep betrayal of trust and enormous emotional damage. Maybe _your_ reaction would be different, and those are your values, and that's fine. If I worked with you and knew your sexual mores were such that this was no big deal for you, my reaction could well be different.
What if the boss had said, "I just found out a favorite employee is gay. Now every time I see him, I'm terribly upset because I know he's going to burn in hell. I feel so betrayed that someone I trusted is so immoral. Should I fire him?"
The two aren't even remotely related. Being gay is a strictly individual choice that has no effect on the employee's performance or that of other employees. Sleeping with the spouse of a co-worker immediately and intimately involves the co-worker and is devastating to them. I don't even begin to see how you could compare the two.
"The boss has learned something about you and now he doesn't like you. Should the boss fire you?"
Like has nothing to do with it. Are you seriously suggesting that the matter under discussion is one of a boss not _liking_ an employee? "Oh, he slept with my wife, I really don't like that guy."
I'll take your question at face value and give you some examples.
If the boss doesn't like you because you are gay/introverted/unsocial/not into sports/don't make a good drinking partner/refuse to perform sexual favors - no, the boss shouldn't fire you.
If you slept with the boss's wife or a co-worker's wife, then you have no place on a team and yes, you need to be fired.
Actually, in any at-will employment state in the U.S., he certainly does have the power, just because he's a manager. I'd go so far as to say that in all the U.S., he has a right to fire the guy; he just might have to give him severance because 'fucking my wife' isn't 'for cause'.
And on a practical level, no one could reasonably expect him to continue working with, let alone managing someone who'd done this, in this small a company.
I believe the supreme court of Iowa recently ruled that an employer (a dentist I believe) was not wrong to fire an female employee to whom he found himself irresistably sexually attracted. According to court docs, his wife wanted her fired and he did so. [0]
Dentist had made some pretty dumb comments that could probably count as a hostile work environment but he wasn't liable for wrongful termination. Obviously doesn't apply anywhere but Iowa but interesting nonetheless.
This isn't about revenge. It's about dealing with a breech of trust and a massive conflict of interest.
I don't want my business depending on someone I can't trust, especially if that someone is going to be on the opposite side of a massive legal battle (divorce, in this case).
The owner of the company would be irresponsible to allow his employee to continue while the situation is unresolved; at a minimum, he'd be suspended until after the divorce proceedings complete.
Frankly, I'd get rid of him on the deception and dishonesty alone, because keeping that kind of employee around is a disservice to the rest of the company.
It's never that simple. Was the husband an asshole and the other guy was the wife's shoulder to cry on? There are plenty of scenarios where the employee would feel justified in his actions. That's not a breach of trust. It's the messy world of relationships.
At one of my old jobs, a co-worker who was also our bosses best friend had intimate relations with the bosses wife. Now, obviously it's inexcusable. But then it's complicated. My boss worked and traveled a lot, leaving his stay at home wife alone and lonely in a city where she didn't have many friends and was also pretty young. And my coworker had been friends with both of them for a long time and was also quite lonely. My coworker ended up leaving the company, while my boss separated from his wife for a few months before reconciling things and moving back into together. Trust is a hard thing to regain after its lost but they seemed to have worked it out. Prior to that incident I had a very black and white view of adultery and to some extent I still do. But now I understand circumstances can be very tough for some, and I can't judge them for the vulnerabilities that afflict humans.
Indeed I would point out that the marriage contract was between the husband and wife. It was the marriage contract that was broken and it was the wife who broke it. The employee had no contract with the husband regarding who he had sex with. Assuming the employee was unmarried he broke no contracts with anyone.
Would the employee be fired for adultery with anyone else? Would other employees be fired for it? Ultimately the employee is guilty of moral turpitude, and the employer should apply the same rules on everyone regarding it.
Regardless of whether the husband was an asshole or the employee feels justified, no one is ENTITLED to sleep with the dude's wife without repercussions.
It doesn't matter if the husband was an asshole. If she divorced him and later decided to start a relationship with this guy that's one thing. There is no scenario where it's ok to screw another man's wife, and you have to be a real idiot to be screwing your boss's wife. It is most definitely a breach of trust.
Yes you can. He doesn't have to, but I suspect I'd say it's either me or him as working together isn't a good option for anyone. It's bad for both employees, and also bad for the company. Either I quit, or you fire him.
If the OP cannot legally fire this guy then it is time to depart that jurisdiction.
Law prevents the OP from just shooting the bastard, and rightly so. We surrender whatever right we may have to fight and kill on own our behalf, in return for protection from others and enforcement of just outcomes. The point is to remove our personal biases from interpretation of "just".
But if the sovereign jurisdiction won't allow this guy to fire someone who has done this, then its "law" has departed from its proper functions and can't be relied upon. I don't know what it is doing, but it isn't overseeing justice. I wouldn't wait to find out how it goes wrong next. I'd just leave.
Not at all. As aforementioned, you can't legally fire him in the UK (or Australia). Doing so would immediately welcome a legal battle with Fair Work (in Australia) and your chances of winning that one are slim to none.
I'm not familiar with the law in the UK. Could someone fill me in?
I'm confused as to how someone can be forced to continue to give money to someone that they don't want to continue giving money to? What if I decide I can't afford those employees because we aren't making enough money? Surely I can close down the business if I want to, effectively firing everyone?
You can fire people, but you have to follow a certain procedure to do so, otherwise you put yourself at risk of being sued for wrongful dismissal. There are clauses in employment contracts to cover gross misconduct so that you can fire someone for stealing etc. If you can't afford the employee you can make them redundant - but there are rules about not filling a similar position for a certain amount of time thereafter to ensure that it's not used as a way of firing people just because you don't like them. If an employee does their job and does it well you should not be able to just fire them because you're having a bad hair day. To me as UK citizen, your system looks like a crazy free-for-all. To each their own I suppose. :-)
Incidentally, IANAL - the above is essentially right but I'm not an employer and only have an employee's view of things.
I prefer a law making it legal to fire at any time except for a blacklist of protected reasons like race, gender. In an at-will united state, I hope adultery can't be misconstrued as a protected reason for not being able to fire....
It wouldn't work like that in New Zealand. Outside of work, consenting adults etc. The employee could just argue that the employer was acting unprofessionally during work hours despite the employee being professional at all times during work hours. If this firing was handled poorly the employer would likely face massive costs.
NZ law has UK law as its origin.
Now, I don't think employers should need a reason to fire employees. That said, I think such laws aren't such a clear cut injustice like you're making them out to be. Not everyone believes in unlimited freedom of contract, and not being able to terminate employment contracts over personal issues wholly outside the scope of employment is not an inconceivably unjust limitation.
as someone who never claimed it to be legal advice I fail to see why you SHOULD consider it valid legal advice
doesn't mean I wouldn't fire the guy's ass because I have yet to see a plausible argument for what negative legal consequences might befall me if I did
IANAL, but I'm fairly sure a tribunal would look quite favourably on a company which fired someone for adultery when it had destroyed working relationships. I think it would come under the 'gross misconduct' provision.
I am not familiar at all with UK law, in California you can show someone the door because they hum out of tune if you want, its the other side of the 'right to work' thing.
But if you, or someone reading, knows UK law, is there anything that prevents you from renting an separate office with a telephone and re-assigning him to work in that office? Still pay him and all but just keep him out of the way where he can't do any more damage.
The UK has restrictions on why you can fire people (unlike CA which is at will), but they're largely quite fair (IMO). See https://www.gov.uk/dismissal/overview
> in California you can show someone the door because they hum out of tune if you want,
Really? So you can show them the door for anything then? In California, can you fire someone for their racial background? For their gender? For their age? Religion? Family status?
I suspect a lot of this thread is just a bunch of software types pretending to know what the law is (myself included). Best advice on this whole discussion: talk to a lawyer.
Firing people in Portugal is also hell, but loopholes exist in every law; I'm sure it's not different in the UK. My favorite, which also appears applicable to this case is: promote him into a top managerial position, then fire him for breach of trust (top managerial positions require trust from shareholders, the board and the CEO)
> My favorite, which also appears applicable to this case is: promote him into a top managerial position, then fire him for breach of trust (top managerial positions require trust from shareholders, the board and the CEO)
You can't retroactively apply "breach of trust" in this situation though, and promoting him with the intention of firing him (which would be obvious) won't help your case.
Goddamn, created an account to reply to this. Can't believe how stupidly judgemental and absolute you're being. There is absolutely nothing wrong with taking your time, thinking about this rationally and approaching it with a cool head. It's complicated, it's way more complicated than just "FIRE HIM." Your comment is ridiculous. Slow your roll. Don't just run around saying people need therapy.
You'd better also plan and execute a... "due diligence" with your business/technology, before and during termination. This fellow has to know termination is a possibility, and while he continues to work there -- and given the attitude he's already expressed -- who knows what "mines"/"bombs"/"trapdoors" he may be putting in place.
Maybe he's not that sort of fellow. But... he already slept with your wife. And... he's not willing to take the initiative and bow out gracefully, now that this is known.
This wouldn't hold at all where I am from. Also I don't get your point at all to be honest, it's completely disconnected from work. Even though it may feel like a personal betrayal I just don't see how this is work related.
Fire him. However, how you handle it is of the utmost importance.
The truth is, not only will you not be able to work with him, but once it gets out to the company, everyone else will begin asking, "Why hasn't he been fired?". If you avoid that decision, you will very quickly begin to lose the trust of your employees, as they'll think you're indecisive and that your employee is the one with hand.
If you decide to continue working with him, the employee will continue to undermine you at work. And then he'll leave, start his own company doing the same product, and bring three quarters of your best devs with him, because they think you've lost your edge.
So get it the fuck together, fire him, and make a public statement that his firing was due to a lack of personal integrity and make it clear that you won't tolerate that kind of personal betrayal. Details can be spared, because those kinds of rumours spread faster than diseases through a workplace.
Great advice, you're right that there's a chance that he could lose the entire company over this.
There's a chance he can't fire him, in which case he should probably contain him in a room doing menial tasks and receiving written warnings whenever they aren't satisfactory (3 warnings = can be fired where I live).
Either way dealing with it head on is the only way to keep everyone's respect.
If he takes everyone's advice and deals with it, but also has the benefit of patience and wisdom to ask before acting (not sure I could), that's probably the most respect deserving course of all.
I would suggest patience insofar as he can collect his thoughts to focus enough on the sitatuion at hand without getting bitter, and execute a plan with cold ruthlessness.
Whether he likes it or not, his employee is now an adversary, and his wife is only the beginning. It's like the old lion being ejected from the pride because his time has come. He's taken his wife, why not take his company? Just like a serial killer, he's only going to escalate.
Also, consult with a lawyer before doing anything (that should go without saying), but do it quick and your goal should be getting him out of there as fast as possible.
From evolutionary point of view, the employee has dominated him by taking over his wife from him. Therefore he will naturally feel inferior. The employee's dominance is reflected in his subtle arrogance with no sign of remorse. He should man up and fire him or he is just a pushover, Mr. Nice Guy (http://www.amazon.com/No-More-Mr-Nice-Guy/dp/0762415339).
This is more than just "puff out your chest, be a man and get the girl". This whole event is rooted in evolutionary psychology. The power dynamics has unconsciously shifted towards the employee. This is like a power frame which is adopted in Pitch Anything (http://www.amazon.com/Pitch-Anything-Innovative-Presenting-P...). To overcome a power frame, you need to break it. If not, he will always submit to the employee's power frame unconsciously. This is not good for his productivity, his leadership, his being as a man and ultimately his company. One way to break the employee's power frame is to fire him.
Regardless of what the wife did, attraction is unconscious. The employee in this case is clearly the better man from evolutionary point of view instead of ethical point of view. At deeper level, he invested a lot in the employee, maybe...maybe too much (typical Mr. Nice Guy) that the employee is like the master and he the servant. Women are unconsciously attracted to men of power since the dawn of time. Also, it takes two to tango. The employee has a choice. This event can be prevented in many ways.
Well he's obviously "not a real man" because he didn't have his woman in line. (On the off chance it's not obvious, /s). I still have the heebee-geebies feel from this thread's misplaced sense of "masculinity"; so glad I opted out of that forced culture as a young child.
So if you learned that not just one but two people you had trusted for years had betrayed you in a really significant way (such as, e.g., a wife having an affair with a trusted employee), you'd just be mature about that, whatever that means?
A person saying this is either extraordinarily in control of his emotional responses (Dalai Lama level) or extraordinarily unaware of how highly emotional events can hit extremely hard.
Yeah, amazingly my reaction to my emotions is not to "beat the shit" out of someone. Certainly not days/weeks/months after the fact in a premeditated way or circle jerking about it in a forum. This is like those insidious threads on reddit where everyone cheers for the bad guy to prison so he can get raped and everything will be better.
the comment you are raging about is disbelief someone can wait months without any serious reaction while the guy who already stabbed him in the back laughs at his face by not leaving voluntarily, and made his life miserable to the point he asks anonymously on the internet if he should maybe fire him. it's not a call for conspiracy into hiring thugs to beat him in the alley.
now it's too late, shit already hit the fan, personal problems got to the office, he got to get rid of him to regain authority, there is nothing 'mature' about doing nothing when he's clearly in trouble.
I never implied that the boss should do nothing. I'd echo most people here indicating that he should be fired for a lack of trust. Yes, I'm going to continue to contend that beating the shit out of someone isn't the mature reaction regardless of the time since incident.
Also, I find it exceedingly amusing that you portray me as "raging" as you support "beating the crap out of" someone.
I'm not saying "go do it", whether in a spontaneous or premeditated way.
I'm saying that it's a rather natural reaction to experience such anger and rage, and that to deny the reality of such feelings is counterproductive. Acting on the feelings in a violent way is discouraged.
This is a good story to know, just to motivate decision-makers to get the business on a no-indispensibles footing. It's more... vivid than the hit-by-a-bus scenario.
If I might put on my amateur-analyst's hat, if your employee fucked your wife, there is a very good chance that he's been fucking you for much longer. A fresh-from-college hire might very well test his boss to see what he can get away with in the first few months on the job, especially if the employee plays the central business role described here. In many situations that youthful experimentation can be indulged, within reason. In this situation indulgence became pathological, and the employee was trapped in a cycle of escalating transgression. You have sown the wind with this employee.
The second professional you should retain, after a lawyer (and indeed this will be a good lawyer's advice) is a private investigator. This guy has been robbing you. If this employee has access to business computers, that investigator should be skilled in forensic computer security. If the employee has access to the books, you'll need a forensic accountant. You might not be able to fire this guy for the ultimate transgression, but you'll definitely be able to fire him (and possibly refer him to prosecutors) for all the steps that led up to it.
If your spirit is so broken by now that you can't contemplate the above then maybe you should just sell the business. It would be nice if you could keep the proceeds away from the ex, but that seems unlikely.
Give the asker a bit of a break. He just got run over by a truck, and some are taking him to task for not bouncing right back up and picking a fight. He got run over by a frickin' truck. Emotionally. He's looking for reassurance and contact with others. Once he heals, he'll be the kind of person who put a 40-man company together again, and he'll do what needs to be done.
The wife is the one at fault, not the employee. Chances are that if the employee said 'no', then the wife would've found somebody else to sleep with. The wife was the one who took a vow to remain faithful, not the employee.
When you have a relationship with a man/woman, it's with this individual, not with every single other human being on the planet.
If I'm not with anyone and I try to seduce your girlfriend, it's HER job to say no. Unless you don't think she is smart enough to make her own decisions. But in this case we have other problems...
As opposed to jetti, I'm not sure the wife would just have found somebody else. But regardless, she was the one in couple with the boss.
I'm confused by most of the reactions I see here. It's as if they expect the boss to be able to tell employees who they can fuck.
Kudos to this boss for at least considering that firing the guy is not the only solution.
> As opposed to jetti, I'm not sure the wife would just have found somebody else.
Irrelevant.
Here's the problem:
"At the same time, every time I see his face, I feel like that just kills me inside."
It is silly to think that this doesn't affect productivity and won't affect the business in the future, especially with communication between these two individuals. A person's well being does is in fact a work matter, the acknowledgment of which makes the employees position absolutely untenable. You cannot possibly sleep with a fellow employee's spouse (regardless of whether it is a superior or not) and not expect that to be a work matter.
> It's as if they expect the boss to be able to tell employees who they can fuck.
This isn't about telling the employee who they can fuck. It's about fostering a productive and positive work environment. Knowingly choosing to create animosity between yourself and a superior (or any fellow employee for that matter) in such a hurtful manner is simply stupid.
I'm not disagreeing with any of the possible impact on the boss's productivity, but rather how a majority of response here are of the kind: "Fire him, be the alpha male! Ouga ouga!" Firing him might be the correct answer; but it's in no way evident.
Try this thought experiment: suppose you have 2 employees. Would you fire one of them if he sleeps with the other's girlfriend, or would you consider this a 'personal matter' and not interfere?
> Would you fire one of them if he sleeps with the other's girlfriend, or would you consider this a 'personal matter' and not interfere?
If I am a small business and only have ~50 employees, I would probably fire them. It's only a personal matter until it affects work. This would obviously affect work.
I would ask him to resign, and if he doesn't he'd be fired. Clearly it won't be good for my business to have these 2 working together. The fact that he's clearly showing bad judgement means it's an easy decision as to which one should go.
So here is a question that would be left to an employment lawyer but I'm going to through it out in response to what you have said: Assuming this is in the US, would the employee's actions fall under the familial status protected class? If so, it would be illegal to fire the employee.
If you and I go into business together, or if we're best friends, or you're my mentor or I'm yours, then we have a relationship. If you fuck my wife, that's absolutely a betrayal of our relationship, and casts serious doubts on your personal integrity. You maintained a deceitful and duplicitous relationship with me while fucking my wife, and I would fire you for that reason alone: I can't trust you anymore because you have near-sociopathic abilities to carry out an extended deception.
At first glance this behaviour of not owing anything to anyone and not respecting social contracts seems sociopathic to me. It's obvious the affair will cause grief and might even break a family. At worst it can ruin the lives of children, lead to suicide, etc.
What exactly makes you think you're a great individual if you seduce a married woman?
Even if the wife was the instigator and the boss an inept husband, a person of integrity should draw a clear line when it comes to someone who is still in a marriage relationship. The fact that this was his boss's wife makes it all the more damning that he entered into an affair with her. If you have any morals at all you make sure the existing marriage is over before you pursue any kind of intimate relationship.
> Chances are that if the employee said 'no', then the wife would've found somebody else to sleep with.
So your argument is that because there is someone out there with no integrity, it makes it alright for him to act without integrity? And that should not affect his work relationship with his boss?
> The wife was the one who took a vow to remain faithful, not the employee.
If we really value honesty and loyalty, then we cannot excuse him for going behind his boss's back and helping his wife break her marriage vows. If keeping your promises is something we value, then we cannot excuse him for actively helping someone break one of the most important promises in their life.
The wife is definitely at fault, but if you value honesty and trustworthiness then the employee was at indisputably at fault too. I find it mind boggling that people would stand up for this guy.
His wife left him. Clearly she had ended the relationship with her husband/the boss-man. She moved on to a relationship with this employee.
Why is anyone 'at fault'? The marriage was clearly over (despite not being officially over). It would be great to see a post from the wife and employee's perspectives. I am sure it would be something like: "the marriage was over and we fell in love, everything is wonderful, I hope he keeps his job and my ex-husband/boss doesn't fire him/me out of spite". I also think it is telling that he is continuing to call her "his wife" still after she has left him.
As the boss I would wish them both the best and continue to judge the employee based on his merits at work.
That depends on perspective but regardless of that, you don't have any information to support this. The man calls the woman "his wife", because he is still married to her. He says "she has since left me" which indicates that they were together at the time of the affair.
As the boss I would wish them both the best and continue to judge the employee based on his merits at work.
Well isn't that fantastic. I would get rid of both of them as soon as possible. Once someone betrays you, they will do it again and again.
> The marriage was clearly over (despite not being officially over).
It is not clear that the relationship was over. A relationship involves two parties. If both parties are not clear that it is over, then it is not over. This is why formal divorce is important. It marks a clear end to the relationship with no room for misunderstanding or confusion. If they created the relationship with a formal marriage commitment then it is unethical to move on until there is a formal divorce, or at the very least a clear and communicated separation and intent to break the relationship. Now if she did everything she could to secure a divorce and he refused her, then it is a different story, but there is no evidence that this is the case here.
It is no longer just her choice to make. When she entered into the marriage relationship, she made a commitment to her husband. She made a promise. It is no longer just her choice.
This is a stretched analogy, but ethically similar, I believe: If I enter into a contract with a service provider (marriage relationship) and as part of their commitment to me they promise a certain level of service (fidelity), then they are obligated ethically to provide that level of service as long as they are within this contractual relationship. Unless we have written into the contract that either party can dissolve the relationship at any time without notice--uncommon for this kind of contract and extremely uncommon for marriage--then they are in the wrong if they choose unilaterally to end the relationship and fail to meet their committed level of service.
This is why adultery is often illegal. The only argument I can think of for making adultery legal is that we do not want the government this involved with people's personal lives. It may not be in fashion, but I firmly believe there is no moral or ethical justification for adultery.
His wife may have already told him it was over years ago and she literally left after the event. Or perhaps the event caused the divorce. Either way it is an 'affair' from his perspective.
Many people live together for years after it is clearly a failed marriage.
I was also not stating the order of the events, rather the facts of the events. The order is of little importance here. She has left him for this other man. That is her choice to make.
It takes two to tango, they both made really bad choices. Even the OP is probably a little at fault for trusting either of them in major areas of his life. And, who said the wife even took a vow to be faithful? I'm married, 'faithful' wasn't anywhere in the vows.
Considering how little we know about the situation what makes you think she was the seducer and not the employee? Seems somewhat sexist to think the woman is the one to blame.
Seems a bit more sexist to assume that if she was the "seducee", that she was somehow helpless to prevent herself from sleeping with the guy.
The known quantity is that she was married to the OP. It's her responsibility to not sleep with someone else or terminate the marriage if she decides that she wants to
What if everyone else finds out the the employee had an affair with the boss and the boss knew and the boss didn't fire him?
I'd honestly have trouble respecting the boss in that situation. This holds even if I were good friends with the guy who got fired. If one of my pals got caught having sex with his boss' wife and he got fired, I'd laugh because what the fuck man, why the would you ever even consider doing that? I wouldn't fault the boss at all, even if I otherwise thought he was a prick.
Finally one that isn't a hard decision for me: it's their business, not mine. If the boss and the employee and the wife are all good with it, great, no problem.
While I'd agree, I think the very fact that he's asking this question is proof enough that at least one of the three parties is not fine with the relationship.
Like if they were all just consensual swingers that's fine with me. Not my thing, but to each his/her own. But based on what the guy wrote it doesn't sound like that is the case at all.
In this story the wife asks the husband to fire the very competent & sexy assistant. He does and the court rules in his favor... because she was a cause for distraction (simplified). I don't agree with this ruling since the assistant did not do anything wrong.
If him being around makes your life miserable, fire him (check with a lawyer first). He's obviously a cause for distraction, you're going to have a hard time trusting him and you are probably having a hard time focusing around him.
In the US, you can be fired for almost any reason. You can be fired because the boss doesn't like your hair, for example. There are very specific exceptions (race, gender, religion, sexual orientation in some states, etc.) but "being too hot" is not one of those exceptions.
US courts have ruled very consistently on this point.
Yep. Trust is fragile. Once it's shattered, it's hard to piece it back together, especially in this gentlemen's case. The odds are against this work relationship being a healthy one for him and company morale. Time to make a quick termination and move on with more trustworthy co-workers.
Besides the obvious answer of firing him or making his life so miserable he'll quit, etc., here's an out of the box idea (I don't know if the preceding 38 comments touch on this - if they did, that validates my idea a bit):
What about the idea of selling the company to him or firing yourself with a nice, generous severance or golden parachute?
One possibility is that you don't yet respect yourself as much as you could.
Another is he may be more important than you right now.
A third is that you will start messing up at work if you keep him around, so you are future value add will at some point be less than his.
Any of these three possibilities suggest that the company is better off with him staying and you leaving.
That said, my first suggestion for you is to get a good therapist. Get some help from your real friends and family (parents? siblings?) And when you man up, fire his ass.
Good luck. You seem like a good person intent on doing what is right for all but it may be time to do what's right for yourself.
I'm glad I don't live on that planet and that none of my girlfriends' boyfriends have a problem with me.
The algorithm here isn't complicated. Ask yourself whether you're someone who can be happily monogamous. If the answer is "no", own up to it, date poly people and have awesome dinners with your new extended family. If the answer is "yes", you have the option of dating somebody who needs your fidelity and offers you theirs in return, and the two of you can live happily ever. And then there are all the other options - but regardless, try to figure it out and be honest with yourself before you get married.
I'll lead the specific advice to SE, but one general observation:
If he's actually that valuable, this is a great reason to spread responsibility, coach newer employees, and invest in other people besides your indispensable "rockstar/ninja/guru" before you might have to let them go for a non-performance-based liability, like suspicions of fraud, etc.
Yeah I totally agree. Separation of duties and rotation of duties is actually a pretty important security measure that should be employed at any company. When there is one person that does/knows it all-everything rises and falls on that employee; even your morality.
Option #1: Ask him (face to face) to talk with him privately, punch him as hard as you can right in the nose, then talk to an employment lawyer to make sure you're in the clear to dismiss him for a breach of professional trust.
Option #2: Most of #1, but (instead of an employment lawyer) demote him to the mail room so he'll resign (no severance or unemployment).
Also, never allow a single person, however trustworthy, to be so indispensable to your business that you can't thrive without them.
#2 is more complicated than you think. It would be seen as a constructive dismissal, basically equivalent to a termination. Only a lawyer can properly advise if this is a good idea.
I'm going to type the words a few more times for emphasis: lawyer lawyer lawyer lawyer lawyer lawyer lawyer lawyer up.
If this is happening in the U.S., then the employee is probably an "at-will" employee, who can be fired for any reason whatsoever - as long as you're not discriminating against him based on his sex, religion, or membership in some other legally protected class. People who've slept with your wife are not a protected class under law.
The point is giving an employee nothing useful to do so that they resign may be the same as terminating them, so they might still be entitled to severance or unemployment benefits.
This is stupid. You fire the guy and I'd take the pepsi challenge on any really unlikely legal issues that arise (which they wouldn't).
If this is even a question for you I genuinely believe you're not cut out to be a CEO and you should take plan B - promote the guy to CEO and slink off into the background yourself.
To be completely blunt, if someone has to ask a question like this on stackexchange and he didn't fire the other guy immediately (or at least after consulting a lawyer to cross the Ts and dot the Is), I'm not entirely surprised that he isn't "doing it" for his wife.
This isn't meant to excuse her cheating in any way as I believe cheating is a cowardly and inexcusable way to get out of a relationship that isn't working, but c'mon.
For what it is worth, I'd advocate firing if the guy found out an employee was cheating on any other employee, so while it would be impossible to separate your feelings in his situation, I think it is the right action regardless of who got cheated on.
Talk about workplace poison and unethical behavior!
I think the only correct answer is to talk to a lawyer and determine the best way to legally terminate the employee. Also, another lawyer should be involved to settle matters between the company owner and unfaithful wife. Things could reach another level of complicated if the wife decides she wants a say in the matter. Does she own any portion of the company, or have a voice in how it is operated?
The end action is obvious (to me). It's the legal minefield of steps necessary to get to that action that the owner needs to carefully consider (with the advice of sound legal council).
It's not the employee's responsibility to stay away from your wife. It's your wife's responsibility to not sleep with other people and your responsibility not to give her any reason to.
I've never understood the Hollywood story of wife cheats on husband, husband beats up her lover. As far as you know he wasn't even aware she was married.
In this case clearly he was aware it was your wife. Would it change the story if she was your girlfriend instead of your wife? Your x-wife? Your x-girlfriend?
I'd say effectively since she had the affair she already was your x-wife. Do the circumstances matter? If he she had left first then later started a relationship with this guy would that change how you feel? If he'd never met your wife while you were married and then met her without knowing she was your wife would that change things?
I'm not suggesting you shouldn't feel upset or want to fire the guy or get him to leave. You feel how you feel. All I'm suggesting is other ways to frame the issue that might subtly change your P.O.V.
Sleep with his daughter? Wait for him to marry your ex and sleep with her again? Hire an outplacement company and place him inside a competitor you particularly dislike?
I think one should be more careful posting such stuff 'anonymously'. It looks like there is enough bits of information here, to identify the original poster. Owner of the company with 30-40 employees; technology company; oldest employee in the company was recruited straight from the university; divorced; likely UK; likely has another account on stack-exchange; writing style.
How do you know that, the 'anonymous' poster has not posted this to shame the bastard and the ex-wife?... Doubt a small (30-40 employee) tech company's employees don't spend any time on stackexchange or on HN.
And the poster has left just enough clues for his target audience (other employees and his and his ex-wife personal friends) to figure out things. At the same time he is within limits such that he is legally safe (against any defamation suits).
One can't be sure, but if this posting, indeed was a shaming strategy. I would say good solid punch. Bang on the face.
Unbelievable. Fifty or sixty years ago, such an act of betrayal would have been answered with a summary firing, at least, and possibly a good beating as a parting gift.
Today, in our namby pamby world, someone has to ask: should I fire him? Would that be insensitive of me? Will I be sued? How will my (ex)wife feel?
The answer, since you asked, is to fire his ass for unethical behavior. If he tries to take you to court, hire a good lawyer and fight back. File a civil suit against him. Make him famous. Make him sorry he ever walked in the door.
What goes around, comes around. Important employee, my ass. No one is worth that.
So is murder. But 75 or 100 years ago, men were commonly murdered for sleeping with another man's wife. Sometimes the killer went to jail. Other times a smart lawyer could get him a lenient sentence. After all, the prevailing morality of the era (arguably still true today) was that you keep your hands off another person's spouse, at risk of life and limb if you don't.
Let's be honest here, personal and professional life will always impact each other. They can't be separated no matter how much you want to reason it out. I can't image how you two will be able to get into a meeting room and only discuss about business. And if you are unable to do that his technical competence will not add any value to you. His words may sound convincing, but your employee sounds arrogant and self-righteous if he says this shouldn't be a work matter.
I would suggest that you first take a break from your employee, make up your mind to terminate him, and finally talk to a lawyer to understand your options from him.
This is for the guy himself, the one who had the affair.
Hi.
What an awful situation - uncomfortable doesn't really begin to describe it. However what's done is done, and if you are now with the wife of the boss, then clearly you and she are happier in that state. Even if not, clearly life is once again far more complicated than we ever envisage, and you have both chosen the difficult path.
So what to do?
Let's paint three options - fight, flee or transition.
Under Fight, you would stand your ground, and insist that business is business, and personal matters are separate.
With Flee, you'd exit immediately and allow you and your new partner to start a new life together away from her former husband.
With Transition you'll take into account the knowledge that things will never be the same at work, and negotiate a graceful exit and transition, perhaps retaining a share of the business, and also ensuring that you formally settle any claim on the business the wife may have.
The Fight approach may seem logical, in a Spock kind of way, but it is bereft of all feeling. You will be demonstrating to all around you that you are completely non-empathic, and some may start pondering your scores from The Psychopath Test (book). I suspect that it would result in an uncomfortable work and personal experiences which will almost certainly end badly for all parties, including the business and the ex-wife.
The Flee approach is the most empathetic, signaling that relationships and family matter more than business, which is a view held by almost everybody else in the world. It's kindest to your Boss, and to your new lover, and allows you all to make genuine re-starts. However you'll lose some of the benefits from being in the company, and you will leave an immediate gap with your knowledge and skills.
The Transition or negotiate and leave approach is probably wisest. The transition period could be days to months, but does need to be defined and progress monitored. You would each agree a list of tasks to complete, and on a way of behaving to each other. You may (should really) choose to have a third party or two involved with this negotiation, but don't hire expensive lawyers and do it in court, for obvious reasons. Come to a rapid agreement within a few days, and then honourably complete the terms.
No doubt there are other approaches, and they should be considered as well. All of them should include a genuine apology - indeed a series of genuine apologies.
Of course it wasn't entirely clear whether you are still with the ex-wife, but even if it was a fairly brief fling, serious consideration of the approach to take and the apologies is still very valid.
If you can't fire him, change his role with the company. He is now the bathroom attendant. He is expected to clean the toilet, provide a towels to dry hands, offer mints, etc. No tips allowed.
Facts: you dont like him now, this was outside work and in that would be unfair to fire as not work related and also legal issues. You are splitting from your wife.
My solution would be make the divorce settlement to be mostly made up from the company. Offload what else you can onto the other chap with fiscal compensation. Then once that has setteled and be all friendly about it you then after a nice little holiday break set up a competeing company and do what you want to do with a clean slate with the knowledge of the buisness, list of employee's you wish to recruit from the old company and relationships with the customers. That is what I would do, only fair and works on many levels of karma as well as enabling you to completely in effect restructure the company in a way that enables you to do it with all that hindsite you have gained and is an emense advantage. Also get misconduct clauses in the contracts that can be leveridged in such matter. Though even if you did have that enabling you to dismiss him without fallback you still need to perhaps make people more dispensible in your company design.
But your company is your life and so is your wife and with that too lose one and have the other stabbed up is certainly a unplesant situation and with that; Don't get mad, get even. But it is had not to get mad so channel it and tap into that new resovoir of energy - some of us have to drink lots of coffee to obtain that level of energy.
He can fire him, but not without the risk of being sued. I think his dilemma is salvaging the time/investment he made into the employee who basically is his right hand man. A person like that is difficult if not impossible to replace.
He's a logical thinker, but his employee is pretty shady to want to stay around and not quit and seems to be quite arrogant. This can be an advantage.
The wife won't get shit. She is the one who had the affair.
The right choice and most difficult choice is to keep him around. It's likely he is still reliable in terms of the company and vital for his day to day operations.
It is extremely for him to take a new stance with his employee though. Make sure you document in writing all the mistakes or problems you have here on out (Extremely Important). Start looking for a replacement, and have the employee start going through day to day operations.
This will stop the employee from stepping all over his boss. Realizing he can be replaced is important especially since the guy seems to not have respect for his boss.
This will put him in his place and he'll have the choice to step up and outperform or make mistakes that puts him in a situation where there is just cause to fire him.
The best case scenario would be for his employee to quit on his own so that he doesn't have have to give severance pay, health insurance or unemployement. This is what usually happens.
You could also cut his hours etc, other ways to get him to leave without having to fire him.
Important question unanswered, before we could give any advice: When did your wife leave? Was it after you found out about the affair or before?
Ideally, our life partner cheating on us should hurt us more than somebody we mentored. But may be since the wife couldn't be controlled, the anguish is on the employee who can be controlled somehow.
The law, surely would support the employee as the personal matters can't be mixed with office. But yea, if you want to fire him, you can do with some other reasons, if not this.
Many personal and business relationships have survived far more serious problems than sex with an ex.
Seriously, an employee's sex life is generally none of the employer's business - neither is the sex life of one's ex-spouse.
Objectively, the employee did not violate the bosses trust and the relationship might be repaired. Though not exactly typical, a marriage and family counselor might help in working toward that end if the parties are willing.
Are you kidding? This wasn't sex with an ex. This was an affair while they were married that was the reason for ending the marriage. You can't see a difference?
It sounds like its only affecting performance because the employer has chosen to make it affect performance. Look at all the comments from people saying if the boss doesn't fire the employee (perhaps because its not affecting performance) they'd quit because the boss has no backbone. Where's the job performance related justification for that?
What part of people leaving a company on account of the breach of trust between a co-worker and the boss, and the related loss of institutional knowledge and incurred replacement recruiting costs, don't constitute a business impact.
It's not necessary for the impact to be on the productivity of the employee whose behavior is in question. Say, an employee starts showing up at work in tactical combat gear with various hate slogans put up around their workplace and on their car, which make other employees understandably scared. Or sexual harassment creating a hostile work environment for others. In neither case would the offender necessarily be the one whose productivity is impacted. I'd support termination in either case, however.
You can't really expect yourself to deal with someone "fairly" when this happens. A person can reason about it all he wants, he's never going to not hate the guy who slept with his wife. Get it over with at any cost, it'll drag down the company much worse than losing any employee.
Maybe I'm naive, but everywhere I've been employed, it's been an "at-will" employment where either party has the right to terminate the employment contract without notice (discriminatory termination notwithstanding).
I truly admire your composure and ability to think of a sensible,legal way of dealing with this situation.Call me irrational but i would have properly & firmly physically 'fixed' this employee.
In regards to the question of 'Is it legal to fire this person for this?' at least in California it's a slam dunk - the answer is yes. One of the questions on the harassment training I had to take was for a related scenario, where a boss cut off an affair with an employee and later on fired her because his wife found out and wanted him to, and the whole point of the question was that the firing was legal. If it's legal to fire under that circumstance, it's definitely legal to fire under this one.
I think the OP is balancing the economic costs of firing with the psychological advantages to be had by chucking him and clearing his mind. If the guy wasnt "close to indispensible", he'd likely be gone by now. One way out could be to bring some other employees up to speed and then fire the guy.
Overall I agree with the top comment. Having the guy around for long would inflict a negative air at the top that might permeate the entire organization. Gotta go for sure.
If a person who worked for me slept with anyone else's wife I would start looking for reasons to fire them. Even more so if it was a coworker's wife. Furthermore, if it was my wife I would fire them immediately and ask questions later.
This loser hasn't an ounce of integrity and integrity is a must in almost any setting. If you expect productivity and team solidarity to ever exist again the garbage must be taken out.
Fire the employee and either commit to counseling or separate from from your wife asap. If anyone presents any other options they are sugar coating the situation. Either way short term you are in for some pain personally and professionally. Deal with it and move on with or without your wife but the employee has to go.
Adultery isn't punishable legally in some places...really?
This is the first time I heard this. I'm talking about married couple, adultery here. Wasn't marriage a "legal contract"? In this case does it mean that if the couple were to be divorced, the guy still need to pay alimony et cetera?
There are two separate issues here, adultery as a crime and adultery as a breach of contract. I'll talk about US laws, since they're the ones I'm most familiar with.
Adultery as a crime is still surprisingly common, but going away fast. Prosecutions for it in Western countries are extremely rare, and the laws making it illegal in 23 US states are just waiting to be challenged and overthrown. Most people seem to think that it's not the government's business to decide that all husbands and wives must remain faithful or be fined/jailed.
Adultery as a breach of contract is a little trickier, because a marriage contract is a special kind of contract that covers things that normal contracts can't. You can't sue someone for breaching their marriage vows, but you can divorce them. In the past, you needed grounds (such as adultery) to do so, but no-fault divorces are available now in every US state and several other Western countries. Whether adultery is factored into decisions about alimony depends on the jurisdiction - some do, some don't. It's a tricky issue, and relationships (particularly rocky ones) tend to be more complex than rigid rules can allow for.
On a more general point, I think that you'd have a hard time convincing a judge that lifetime sexual exclusivity is something you can sign away in any normal legal contract. Marriage gets special treatment to allow for things like that, but the trade-off is that we expect married couples to try to deal with their own issues rather than getting the courts involved immediately.
I'm talking about married couple, adultery here. Wasn't marriage a "legal contract"?
Yep. The wife broke her marriage contract. The other guy was not party to the contract and thus did nothing illegal (except in places with backward definitions of adultery). Doesn't mean he wasn't a jerk for emotionally harming his mentor.
Very surprised nobody has mentioned "at will" employment.
.. or as my old employment law professor used to say:
You can require all of your employees to wear purple shirts. And then the next day when one of them shows up wearing purple, you can fire him for wearing purple.
You cannot be serious. You cannot go through life letting people walk all over you and abuse your trust. Your approach isn't "better than most alternatives"; it's encouraging him to accept the role of victim. Life is too short for THAT.
If you are willing to have an affair with someone else's spouse, especially when that person has been a mentor and championed you by promoting you, you're probably pretty devoid of any loyalty or moral fiber. And then to refuse to leave? Yeah, you can assume that person is completely untrustworthy in any regard.
Note, I'm not referring to a single mistake in a moment of weakness but an ongoing affair.
I get the tautology that if you can't be trusted then you can't be trusted, but I still don't see any reason to believe this would extend to something like theft.
There is the relationship between the owner and the employee. From the question it sounds like the owner doesn't want to dissolve this relationship (at least in part) due to the negative impact on his company.
I find it very, very strange that his first stop wasn't an employment lawyer. He has an employee with a demonstrated willingness to lie about the most important of things, to cause massive distraction and disruption, and to do so with little regret. What else isn't he telling you?
If he really doesn't believe he can fire this guy, he has a succession planning problem that needs to be solved.
It's a shame seeing something like this come up, especially since there is basically no way we can really get a useful picture of events to give advice. Several statements lack qualifying detail that could be useful:
Recently, I found out that one of my employees has been having an affair with my wife.
Drunk hookup at New Year's Eve party, semi-monthly when the timing works out, or on your office desk every Friday when you're out playing golf?
My wife has since left me
For the employee? For another party entirely? For Scientology?
I've spoken to him, and he says he's sorry about what's happened but he's also not leaving.
He's sorry he got caught, or that he got caught up in the heat of the moment?
Seriously, there's degrees here and a simple "The arrogant little bastard cuckolded me!" likely doesn't do the situation justice.
Moreover, as the guy points out himself, the employee is technically competent and also the matter is private at the moment--presumably, he may be able to let sleeping dogs lie.
This is stupid drama and we can't help because we're all supposing things wildly.
Threads like this are a nice sampling of the kinds of people you find on Hacker News. I find myself saying "yep, I'd work for you," "not in a million years," and so on. It's fun. Try it.
Hint: Immediate-fire responses are managers who shouldn't have reports. Take notes.
OK, so you'd rather work for a guy who fires the adulterer the next day, not the same day that he finds out he's been poking his wife? Because he's taken 24 hours to "think it over"?
I can understand if the employee was caught stealing petty cash or fudging the time sheets; then you'd want some semblance of due process to gain absolute proof, give him a chance to resign rather than be fired, etc.
It's not about the proof required to fire him. It's about understanding the situation entirely before reacting. Immediate reactions are usually problematic because emotions are involved, particularly in this case.
If you won't stand up for yourself here, I don't know when you will. I certainly don't know when you would stand up for me.
Get a lawyer and do it right. But fire him.
ALSO: Maybe more important. Get yourself into therapy of some kind. Immediately. Get screened for depression and pyschological disorder.
That you are even asking this question suggests that your priorities and self-image have departed from normal ranges in unhealthy ways. Never mind the goddam business. You aren't even living your life. Something is seriously haywire. If you don't go to work on it you are going to end up a very sad and strange story.