Some thoughts.. I'm Indian-bodied but was born and raised in the states. When I was in my early 20s I lived on and off in India for about 5 years (about 6 months at a time). So I've had a decent amount of exposure to Indians of all types (Indian and American born). I've also worked with a fair amount of Indians over the course of the last few years.

These may not be the case with you, but as someone who has had a fair amount of exposure to Indians form India, and as someone who has coached and interviewed a fair amount of Indians for a variety of roles, the following may help:

+A lot of it boils down to personality. I've noticed a very wide spectrum of attitudes coming from Indians. I think a fair amount of introspection and awareness about how you are coming across to the other side is a really powerful tool to employ. I've seen a lot of ego and general lack of sophistication and at times class from some Indians that I've met, and I'm certainly not saying that this may be the case with you, but it may be worth considering if there's something about your mannerism / tone that maybe rubbing people the wrong way.

+Being a FOB language skills can be a natural weakness but judging by your post this doesn't seem to be the case. I think being yourself and honing your personality will have more impact, but taking a little extra care in how you communicate can really work wonders.

+You say you're in a product management role, there's generally an axis of management skill vs. technical ability. Some companies may be looking for one or the other, and in the interview you may or may not be emphasizing the one they're looking for.

+And finally there's leadership ability, particularly important in management roles. Have you led your teams to success in your career? Reflect about what got you to that point, and try and channel that into your interviews.

+Above all, stay the course if you can. If you're convinced you're on the path you want to go, then persist. If you want something else and have the runway to pursue it, then a change of environment is a great first step towards finding your next step into something that motivates you.

No offense intended in any of the above, and best of luck to you!

The thing with stereotypes is that it lingers. But people from different generations might do away with that

Now, a Project Management position in a smaller company might require different skills. Being a Product Owner of a feature in a bigger product with broken down requirements coming from upstream is a very different job than POing at a smaller company where you have to come up with requirements based on goals.

The last company I worked for interviewed some founder of a Czech IT agency for a lead dev position and his resume seemed awesome.

He worked over 15 years in IT, founded a company that had 10 employees etc.

But the first thing he said in the interview was "What job do you have? I only accept CTO"

whelp.

It was HE that would be taking the job -- so why not make sure it's the job he wanted in the first place?

If he was desperate for any job AND still said that, then he would be indeed self absorbed.

We do not know you so I will have to work on the little you put on the OP... maybe during the on-site interview you come out as a bit too desperate about changing job? or too whiney about the current job? Or both?

Try to consider if this could actually be a factor: I am sure that "what do you think of your current position" is pretty much a criteria in considering a new hire, even if it is not necessarily prominent during the interview.

While folks here will give you lots of tips on the professional side, here are a few actionable things you can do to minimize racial bias:

- Change your name to an americanized version. I know someone who did this. Lots of research that proves this point: http://bit.ly/1mcsxdJ

- Take acting classes and learn to speak with no accent It wont be permanent, but you'll be able to minimize your accent for a few hours in the interview. It's akin to speaking with a fake French accent. See: http://bit.ly/2loPQwy

- Pay people to give you mock interviews and record them. Pay someone else to review the footage and give you interviewing tips.

- Improve your appearance: Bleach your hair lighter shade of brown and try to dress comfortably casual.

- Take some dating classes, learn to improve your confidence (or at least fake it for the in-person interview0.

- Improve your public speaking ability: Join a toastmasters group, get a mentor and give a few speeches.

A job interview is a bit like dating. If you're getting rejected during in-person interviews, then learn to "date better". A lot of racial biases here in SFbay are pretty rough. Even if you graduated top of your class at Stanford and had a successful exit you'll be near the bottom of the pile when it comes to dating.

There are very strong racial stereotypes. They also vary by who holds them.

I'm a 40+ yo Russian system programmer, moved to States when I was 25, worked in a bunch of places from smaller startups to Fortune-500 shops. Here are my stereotypes:

* Russians are frustrated know-it-alls with strong NIH syndrom wanting to redo everything from scratch. The language barrier often makes it hard for them to clearly express their grand ideas, hence the frustration. They will solve things backwards because it's more interesting that way.

* Chinese will cut corners to fit deadlines. They can write beautiful code, but more often than not they don't bother and go with absolute minimal something that fits the spec.

* Swedes, Finns, Germans and Brits are very much OK. Easily the best in terms of working together.

* Canadians and Australians are solid if a bit slow.

* Eastern Europeans are immensely productive hacks, opinionated as hell, but very good for rapid prototyping.

* Indians ...

Now, Indians are arrogant know-it-alls that _lust_ for respect and power. Frequently the source of pointless drama in the workplace. They are very smart, write good code, but they also have very hard time admitting their mistakes. This often makes it hard to work with them as colleagues.

Stereotypes are VERY important to keep in mind, because that's the starting point for every candidate assessment. The best the OP can do is to throw the interviewers off their footing. Say something like I'm Indian, but I was born in Argentina - and, bam, they can't sort you in a default bucket, so they are forced to actually start assessing you from scratch. The same goes for dyeing your hair, fixing the accent, changing the name - it's all for trying to separate yourself from a stereotype and make them view you as an individual.

I oversaw a team of Indian-based Indians while working for a software company in Austin, TX.

My stereotypical experiences:

- Ask an Indian if he understands something, he'll always answer "Yes" even if he doesn't understand it.

- Indians will not admit fault or mistakes. They seem to take it as a personal attack when you critique their work, rather than take it a suggestion for improvement.

That has absolutely been my experience. After so many instances where I found out later they had actually no clue about the thing they claimed to fully understand, I started to follow up with questions like, "OK, now explain to me how you're going to proceed," or "just to make sure we're on the same page, explain to me what ____ is and how it works." Not to embarrass them or anything, just to find out if they were being truthful, which often they weren't.

- Indians will not admit fault or mistakes. They seem to take it as a personal attack when you critique their work, rather than take it a suggestion for improvement.

I've seen this in members of all ethnic groups I've worked with, but I've found it to be quite common among Indian developers.

One time a rush bug-fix ended up letting a showstopper regression bug get into production. (The getting into production part was entirely my fault.) The dev was calling (Java) toString() on a value that had just been read from a nullable column of a relational database, without null-checking it first. When I asked him, "do you understand why you can't do this?", he would not admit any error, instead arguing "that column should not have been allowed to contain nulls." (The table/column in question predated his presence on the team by years.)

The answer I would have preferred to have gotten would have been something like, "OMG, I can't believe I did something so stupid, I absolutely DO understand what I did wrong and I'll make sure it never happens again." I don't, after all, expect people to make zero mistakes. I just want them to own up to them and hopefully learn something from them.

That's just one particularly egregious example out of many I've witnessed over the years.

That's my stereotype for all engineers.

I live in Paraguay, could anyone shed light on what stereotypical views/biases I would experience in a job interview as an Aussie living in Paraguay?

My understanding is that there's a north/south work ethic stereotype within Italy, and maybe that the regional attitude differences are not as well appreciated outside of Italy, moreso outside of Europe. She was from the north. Non so de dove il postdoc viene.

But the perception is usually neutral it seems

* Israeli jewish people

* non-Israeli (eg US) jewish people

(edit: Formatting)

Curiously, if I had to come up with stereotypical descriptions, I'd say I'd come with something similar. :)

That's the whole point of stereotypes, isn't it? ;)

- OP is not hiding the fact that he his Indian. It probably shows in his name, on his CV and in his slight accent during phone interviews. Nevertheless, he has been invited for interviews and has even frequently made it to the final round. If being Indian was such an issue, he would not have made it so far so often.

- even in the final round when he didn't get the job, according to OP, he was sometimes offered another role instead. If the HR department was so very racist and didn't like Indians, then why would they do that?

Of course this is not a proof that there was no discrimination at all, but I would say the chances are greater that there is some other issue that is affecting his chances. Apparently an issue that becomes apparent only in the final rounds.

I would definitely not change his name to an americanized version! The problem is that there is something inconsistent between the impression given in his CV and phone interview and what comes out during the final round. Hiding the fact that you are Indian on your CV could only make this problem worse.

All these people talking about discrimination against South Asians... I don't know, every tech company today has South Asians and East Asians and just about every other ethnicity. I've worked on teams with Indians and Pakistanis for decades now, and I have yet to hear of discrimination, or to witness it.

Actually, our economy would grind to a halt if we got rid of all these Asian chaps. And why would we? As a rule, they're smart, they work hard, they're pretty well trained. The one slight stereotype if any, that I would confess to is that the Asians as a group tend not to be mavericks and cowboys. U.S. people and English, and to a lesser extent other Europeans, tend to produce more mavericks and cowboy programmers who question authority, think outside the box, etc. That may be changing, as more Asian folks are raised and educated in the U.S.

OP, I would also agree, don't change your name, tint your hair, and "become Western". Take pride in your heritage, for Pete's sake. Who likes a sycophant? Be yourself. And, perhaps, think about what else you might be qualified for that companies are seeing in you that you're not seeing in yourself. Sometimes you have to go where the market is.

There is definitely a lot of discrimination in the professional environment in general. People don't want to go outside of their comfort zone. They'd rather see themselves 5 times in a team instead of learning things from different people.

Long story short, applying for a PM role with an accent and some sort of stereotypes in the Bay Area is definitely not a plus. Increase the number of applications you'll find a place. It's a candidate's market right now so people pick whatever they feel comfortable not having to adapt to much. Laziness is king right now.

Current heritage CEO of Google and Microsoft prove some things.

You don't choose things like the family you're born into or the colour of your skin. It's humiliating to be treated in a way to try to cover it up like you made a mistake of choosing those things.

Americanized name - If people can learn yoga and chai latte, I'm pretty sure it's not due to a lack of capability to give someone the dignity of learning their name. This isn't the 1970's. People should be free to choose their name, not adjust it for what someone might think.

Cultural norms - I do think there is benefit from being able to navigate and work in a lot of environments and groups. But doing it solely to fit in and be accepted may be a form of colonialism that creates the very insecurities generationally you're trying to type away in a few sentences. The more you learn about other cultures and people, the richer you get.

Accent - Being born and raised in North America, I get to speak perfect english. Sadly, sometimes salespeople in a store won't greet me unless I say hi first. Guess who smiles and always says hi first and hopes future generations might not have to.

I hope some of the below helps, I have had a few major transitions in my career and the things that helped to move to the next step included:

ABOVE ALL - Continue becoming well rounded for yourself, not others. People's own insecurities (including those who are hiring) will naturally want to be around someone who's calm, self-assured, and not phony. If you are swimming around a lot of phonies and not connecting with that culture, it's OK.

1) Always add value. First. - Most people are takers. Don't be one. Won't work if you're not a giver. Learn to be nice, and smart and give freely to good situations and things. The karma builds up and comes back. Whether or not one should need to, generating goodwill seems to help. Finding how to add value and help people achieve what they are doing will always come back. This is the most important thing I practice every single day. Give a shit about others and some, eventually will give a shit back. Don't worry about the one's who don't or the inefficiency of it all.

2) Self-Confidence - Know people who won't want to accept you for any reason will find a reason. Lazy people will find convenient reasons. People have their own hangups. There is a big difference between thinking less about yourself vs thinking less of yourself.

3) Self-directed - embrace your proud geek culture and be your own person learning and pursuing the things that interest you. It transfers to other areas of your life.

4) Work ethic - There will always be some you come across who don't like that you work harder than them, or less than them. Ignore them all.

5) 8x - I was told by a mentor that shared some good math: It's not uncommon to have to be twice as good to get half the respect, four times as good to be treated as an equal, and eight times as good so you can't be ignored. It's up to the individual, I guess to see that they end up winning by becoming. You will have to work hard anyways.

6) Be a creator - whatever you create, become good at sharing it online. What you built or have done in the last 2 years is the most relevant things folks will look at. Curate and keep it active and healthy with a good mix of the things that interest you and what you build when no one's looking

7) Out Educate - Whatever you're good at, give the knowledge away. The hard part is doing it. People who interview well but turn out to be garbage are bullshitters will not appreciate it. Companies who get burnt by the wrong hire will remember it. When I meet someone for some work together, I always give them the knowledge I have for free.

8) Be visible - build and share things to demonstrate capability of your work. Don't show off. It will introduce you to people, build your network, and on that basis introduce you to opportunities that are often created. Don't chase social status, but be aware that social proof

9) Communication - I won't tell you to get rid of your accent. But do ensure you know how to communicate extremely clearly when neccesary. If I went to another country, and success might be enhanced by how well I commit myself to being able to communicate flawlessly in that language, I might see that as a tool, but not a flaw or shortcoming in myself.

10) Dating - is for most, largely a blind emotional baggage collection exercise of expecting a complete stranger coming into your life to supplant and rise to the highest relationship in your life. If you're optimizing your life to meet and end up with the right person, improving yourself in the right way will improve the situations and opportunities for that to happen, it becomes apparent that it's more about realizing how to recognize that person and situation, and hope they do the same. When that clicks, one can end up happily, and hopelessly married forever. Don't confuse dating (temporary startup) with the goal of a lasting relationship (established business)

11) Don't take advice from people who don't have experience with what they are giving advice on. Like the post above in some cases.

I know you might feel excluded from some opportunities, but in a way, maybe it's filtering out the crap for you and you will only meet the people who genuinely want to work with you.

Being a visible minority can have it's perks. Like the exclusionary glances immediately telling you in a room who you can talk to and be a star with, and who you don't need to talk to.

While we don't know your exact situation, know you're not alone, and let the losers and losing situations filter themselves out, it is for the best.

Feel free to connect offline if you would like to chat some more.

Racism is alive and well, and a real problem that people have to deal with. Advice like "embrace your proud geek culture and be your own person learning and pursuing the things that interest you" is generic feel good woowoo that is just not relevant here.

"11) Don't take advice from people who don't have experience with what they are giving advice on. Like the post above in some cases."

Or like yours, as someone "born and raised in North America, [who] speaks perfect english"

Sorry man, but sometimes you have to accept that you don't have much to bring to a conversation, no matter how strongly you feel about it.

tl;dr: the post you replied to is linking freaking research papers to support what it says and your reply is "don't worry just think positive and everything will be fine"

I assure you I'm among the most visible and targeted of minorities.

Racism is sadly, absolutely alive and well. The question is are you going to resign to it or engage with it in a positively unreasonable and relentless way? Ending racism is also a startup.

The first step for me to get used to taking a strangers and making them a human being so it's not as easy to dismiss them, or their experience.

It's concerning you might automatically think what I wrote is ideological. I practice these things every day. Happy to chat about any points above you'd like to know more about me, I just wanted to share what I have learnt by my own experience with the original poster, and the results it has helped achieve.

As for "generic woo woo culture", there's no need to put someone down, my message was for the original poster. If this has a hit a nerve with you of what you feel the world is, I agree it's not an easy place, and it gets harder, but the only peace I'm finding is when I'm getting better.. leave me no choice but to take responsibility for improving myself.

I also belong to another woo woo culture/practice that fiercely promotes manifesting yourself in action in the world through positivity action towards other, treating all of humanity as one and your extended family, and selfless service towards all. So why not be that way.

reachj45@gmail.com, would love to learn more about you :)

Especially the American name thing. You can only know the disadvantages of having a non-western name if you've actually used one. There's a reason why so many ethnic (particularly Asian, from what I understand) lawyers use American "professional names".

The other advice really is solid: Don't fit the stereotype when you meet new individuals, and they won't treat you like one. First impressions count a lot, so you can't change someone's mind after the fact without a lot of work.

Shortening one's name is a common practice among American names.

Ironically I grew up in a school environment where I was one of the few minorities, and when I got to university, people of a shared background shortened my name.

It's not "feel good woowoo," it's fundamental human psychology, and I think it's absolutely relevant here.

edit: I should add that I don't actually recommend blindly taking his, or anyone's, advice. Educating oneself should come first. I would recommending reading "Influence," by Robert Cialdini, if you want to learn more about the type of stuff discussed in j45's post.

Pursued understanding a little too inefficiently myself, means a lot.

Such reflection also shines a light on how unreasonably hard some people, in any group are having to work to ensure organizations reflect society, and the nature of their sacrifices and commitment compared to others.

Attitude, curiosity, work ethic, being easy to get along with and work with others go a long way.

It's more about developing a positive and healthy inner mental and emotional dialogue that allows you to live in a viewpoint of seeing and acting on possibility instead of worshipping doubts to drag ourselves and others down.

Innovation, improvement happens by pushing yourself to grow, not finding faults in everything around you and in yourself.

No one will be in your corner if you aren't.

That sounds fantastic. I wish this was my experience when shopping because I hate being harassed by salespeople looking to make a commission.

The strangest one (and it is rare) is was at Costco a few weeks ago. The guy just pointed at the payment terminal, didn't say hi. I asked him why he was pointing at the machine and not saying hi. I forgot to say hi first.

That is clearly not the problem, since the OP is making it to on-site, and even being offered other roles.

This is terrible advice. As soon as you start the job, the people who interviewed you will wonder why your accent is totally different, and it will instantly put you on the backfoot.

>>I am almost thinking of halting my job search and finding some kind of hobby to keep me occupied and keep my mind off work.<<

This is a far better idea than just applying for jobs for the sake of it. It could be possible that you are coming across as slightly desperate in your interviews because you hate your current job so much.

Good luck

Struggling to see why this would be seen as bad advice. The basic human response to a foreign accent is "this is hard work for me to understand them". On a more subconscious level, they're probably wondering if you share the same cultural interests and therefore whether you'd get on. If you are not like this, good on you, but I assure most are not.

Some people can be horrendously unforgiving about accents, the quickest way to experience this is to go to France or China and try to speak French and Chinese to them respectively. (these are the two countries I've found to be the most unforgiving on accent from personal experience).

If someone is presenting you with a solution to a problem (as defined by other people), why is that terrible advice?

In any case, why should the acting classes stop after landing the job? Being able to speak with a native accent in a non-native language should be seen as a virtue...

That's not quite how accent reduction works. I think the goal is to be clear and understandable in the interview. The accent would have no weight on his professional capabilities.

Learning whatever language you use for work properly and being able to make yourself understood is immensely important.

I work for a company that has a pretty extensive global footprint. Just in the office I work we have around 15 nationalities, and it isn't even a big office.

Just about the only hard requirement I have for people being hired on my team is that they can make themselves clearly understood in english over a dodgy phone connection. Despite the fact that we are a norwegian company, I don't care if people know any norwegian at all. But english they must know. And yes, I have passed on norwegian candidates that could not make themselves understood in english.

And to underline how important people being able to communicate is for me: despite almost exclusively hiring people that are multidisciplinary (just being a software developer isn't enough, you need at least one other skill) I don't care about what education people have and I don't look at their grades.

If you are a developer, the most important language isn't any programming language: it is english.

Clear communication is the most important skill for almost any business person, but certainly for developers.

> B: Uh, maybe a little? I've been taking accent reduction classes and learned to speak without one, but can't keep it up 24/7.

> A: Thanks for your honestly. Unfortunately we'll have to let you go. Please pack your desk.

I believe employers might ask about it. if you tell them you are bettering your communications skills. It can only be a plus? Because this guys is using his spare time to better himself, instead of watching firefly over and over again in hope they will continue the series.

I've gotten every job I've ever interviewed for that I really wanted. In the end, it's about perception and desire. If you don't go in acting like you deserve the job and can be an asset to the company, you are not likely to get an offer.

You also have to be able to sell yourself as the perfect fit. Trust me, no one is, but if you believe you can become it, it will show and they will believe it too. That's when the offers come in.

Go through your skill sets, really step back and evaluate if it's up to date enough for these newer positions you are going for.

Also, if you go into an interview with the attitude that you hate your current job, it will show. You need to make peace with whatever your current job is, find something positive about it, and reflect on that. This will help you to be positive in your interviews and talk well about your current company, which employers want to hear.

I once said this to a friend. He then suggested maybe I wasn't being as ambitious as I could be in the roles I was seeking. Gave me some food for thought.

> I've gotten every job I've ever interviewed for that I really wanted.

the point is not that "i get every job i interviewed for because i'm that good" -- i think the point is "i get every job i really want because the enthusiasm fuels the interview".

i can say with certainty it has nothing to do with a lack of ambition. enthusiasm is the only thing i can attribute to offers i've received for positions i wouldn't consider myself qualified for. :)

I'm not reading that in the quoted comment. But still

> "i get every job i really want because the enthusiasm fuels the interview".

why lead with that, to display confidence? Very well, interesting though that confidence is the argument to be made and so the presentation of the response has to agree with the argument. But that still lacks some sympathy and isn't constructive, when it's addressed at the lack of confidence (which admittedly seem obvious from posting about the issue on HN).

> nothing to do with a lack of ambition. enthusiasm is the only thing

Interesting, I'm not aware of the difference. I'd say ambition subsumes enthusiasm.

i can understand where your coming from: there is probably truth to the idea that... in general, if you are ambitious you will be enthusiastic or vice versa. but:

1. they are not mutually exclusive. to apply for a job you are underqualified for and disinterested in would be both ambitious and unenthusiastic. in practice this might not really happen but...

2. for the purpose of the interview, any enthusiasm is useless if you don't have the charisma to project it. ambition is more of a factor for you to internalize. it is relative to your own experience. enthusiasm is different. it's more important to externalize. i care if i'm ambitious, the interviewer cares if i'm enthusiastic. i don't want to hire someone who doesn't love the job- and if they love it i don't care if they're overqualified (lacking ambition).

> why lead with that, to display confidence?

in my experience, this again is more of an internal thing. it's not that externalizing confidence is valuable (probably more of a liability, really). it's that confidence manifests itself in other ways that are inspiring or attractive. for instance, i am pretty humble and sometimes nervous; i hate selling myself. but when i'm genuinely excited for a position, it's easier to suppress the instinct not to brag.

> that still lacks some sympathy and isn't constructive ...

your mindset needs to be "i'm really excited to apply for this job because it's totally awesome and i can kick it's ass" -- not "i'm applying for this job because i really hate my current job". the right type of confidence and enthusiasm will only come from the former. i realize this argument is kind of... philosophical?, just trying my best to generalize what's lead to any success i've come by :)

In the history of human interaction, has anyone said that and not then followed it up with something arrogant and dickish?

> I've gotten every job I've ever interviewed for that I really wanted

Of course you have. And the jobs you didn't get you later decided you must not have really wanted enough. I wonder how you would have felt about those jobs if you had gotten them.

We get it, you're a super impressive person. You can stop trying so hard to impress us now.

Of course not. I take that to mean "what I have to say I cannot say in a way that is not dickish, so understand that I'm not doing it with the purpose of hurting you".

I remember a comedian saying that he likes to say "I don't want to sound racist, but" and then follow it up with something that actually wasn't racist. As in "I don't want to sound racist, but do you have the time?" or "I don't want to sound racist, but can you tell me the way to High St?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AI4AC50n6cU

1. being able to demonstrate excitement is a huge bonus. i've interviewed a decent number of people. on average 0 were excited about any of the companies. maybe a third were what i could consider genuinely excited or passionate about the technology or the position.

2. taking a few minutes to ask what problems they have struggled with, or what they're working on now, gives you a "serendipitous" platform to sell yourself: take that opportunity to work with them and prove yourself.

Thanks for your account of anecdotal evidence. The thread needs more observation bias.

edit: I think you are onto something in terms of motivation (vs professional care), don't get my sarcasm wrong, I simply doubt you ever applied to jobs you really really didn't want. Call that survivorship bias or whatever.

Ignore marketing yourself in the interview process all you like, but you're doing that at your own peril.

Sometimes the resume "oversells" the applicant. I wonder if they are expecting someone a bit more knowledgeable and skilled based on how you present yourself. This is just a guess of course, but do you feel the resume truly represents (and does not overstate) your accomplishments?

How about price? You say you've worked for 4 "brands", so I'd expect you are paid well. Maybe they all like you, but not as much as the others when comparing price and experience of others.

Your mention accent, so that is obviously at least on your mind. Doesn't sound like a huge factor if you're making it onsite 50%.

These problems can be tricky. Stay at it, and maybe ask a past interviewer for some helpful feedback. They will likely be reluctant to give it to you (legal reasons, nothing to gain but goodwill), but worth a shot.

Good luck.

I ran into this problem myself. One of the headhunting services rated me as an excellent programmer (I managed to get a sneak peek at the sheet that got sent to the places I recruited at). I think I'm a decent programmer - I wrote a DSL that converts Julia to verilog - but not having any real industry experience, my whiteboarding sucks and I don't do things like "default to hash" even though I actually do that when I program.

Consequently, I got no offers and repeatedly got told they were "looking for someone more senior". Probably for OP, being Asian also totally hurts, because as an overrepresented minority, hirers are looking for any reason to not take him.

I'd tell the OP, try to get hired by a friend.

But let's look at the numbers. Pretend every onsite interview had a random 10% chance of resulting in an offer. 10% offends certain people's sensibilities, but in this crazy bubble, I'd say for some businesses, it's on the high side. Management is a political game, and it's rigged, often against high performers. One interviewer may have made their employer pass on you because they felt you'd jeopardize their cushy monday-morning work habits, despite the fact the project is months behind schedule and falling further behind.

If you were to publish your experiences to a peer-reviewed scientific publication, everybody would tell you "need more data". 50 job applications is simply not enough, and 7 onsites nowhere near enough. If the search is grueling and bumming you out, maybe let up a bit, take a month or two breather, and try to focus on higher quality at the beginning of the funnel (if you're not thrilled about the job, don't waste any time on it).

Candidates for product management, more than any of the other functions, are often strong but a wrong fit. PMs at B2B companies do very different tasks than PMs at consumer web companies. There are a lot of skills that go into product management, and different companies have very different opinions of their relative value. Look at the component skills: customer empathy, process refinement / project management, technical understanding, data manipulation skills, strategy/business, lateral/upwards management, and vision setting. For leaders, there's also org design and hiring. Almost nobody is super strong at all of these. Where are you strong and where are you weaker? What do the companies you're hiring for actually need?

I'd recommend getting tighter on your criteria for your next job. If you ruthlessly self evaluate, you'll probably realize there are only a few companies out there that can perfectly leverage your experience, so think about what you want to learn and consider lowering your "level" expectations (if you're looking at director positions, look at first-level manager or senior IC instead) to broaden your experience. 15 phone interviews to 7 onsites is solid, but 50 applications to 15 phone screens is low. Most companies are going to be very cautious when hiring external senior PM managers, so consider a stronger emphasis on networking to evaluate fit and the company's needs, so you can tailor your interview to demonstrate the right skills.

You said the feedback is often "interview for a different role". Did you interview for those other roles? What's different about those roles from the one you want?

One thing to try... if the shop isn't probing you to find out what you want to do as a PM, then you need to be probing the shop to find out what they're looking for.

That and just keep trying. Its a numbers game though, if you aren't getting any offers there must be something wrong with your interviews.

My understanding is that companies won't give you feedback because they are afraid to get sued. So don't expect any feedback from them. Read some books/websites on how to improve your skills and do a few mock interviews.

If you can get on the other side of the table by interviewing candidates at your current job, it might help build confidence.

Reality is - it is not a candidate's market anymore for many reasons. It is early 2017, things have changed since the end of last year. The amount of jobs available hasn't changed but the number of candidates has raised significantly. It is extremely high and will remain high until April, when visa applications will stop, as well as a lot of other high profiles who won't be on the market anymore. Right now companies are super picky and treat candidates like crap. They line up 10 interviews, give you assignments after a few calls and an onsite. They reject you even if you haven't failed any tests, etc.

Give it a month or two and it'll come down. You're not doing anything wrong, it's just that a lot of very very good candidates are out there right now looking for jobs. You might be a second/third pick since they bring you onsite.

So from January to March companies also look at candidates who need sponsorship. If you already have an H1B it doesn't count, this is only for new applications.

Though, this year Trump will change everything on April 3rd. Premium processing (15 days) will be stopped, which will make H1 visa transfers harder and more painful for companies. We're talking about a few months to transfer a visa from one employer to another. If you're an H1 holder, you will most likely be stuck with your current employer because companies will never wait a few months for you to start.

With that being said, in April the job market will settle down a little bit. Less candidates and maybe even more jobs out there.

Some very experienced applicants seem to assume their experience weighs so heavily that their chances of getting the job are better than anyone else's, and that there's nothing else they can do to get the job aside from fill out the form and show up for the interview.

I've had very experienced candidates come to an interview and complain about their current jobs, and complain about how stupid all the young inexperienced kids around them are. I love hiring experienced people, but that is a total turn-off, and an indicator that this person will not try to work with others, will not fit in, and generally will not perform well.

You mentioned that you hate your current job. So my question is whether you're knowingly or unknowingly communicating that during your interviews. Even if you're not saying it out loud, one's demeanor, body language, tone, excitement level, etc. can all expose someone who's unhappy doing what they're doing, and presenting yourself as unhappy being a PM is - in my experience - the worst thing you can do.

Some other ways experience can work against you include that your salary is at the high end so employers feel they can get equally good work for less money, and that your experience has hardened you in the operating procedures of other companies. Employers want to feel that you're open to adapting, willing to learn, and will go out of your way to shed any old dogma you have that doesn't fit, and adopt new dogma that benefits the new company. A PM job also involves a lot of rallying people, so you have to come off as a person who's able to tell a good story and convince others to do what you need and follow your lead.

Good luck to you, and please keep in mind that nobody here knows what's wrong. It could be you or could be racial or could be a bubble job market in the area you're applying... all of these things are absolute speculation. Your question doesn't have enough information for anyone to know.

So no ass-kissing, looking desperate or acting over-eager at working for some random company out of tens of thousands of other companies like it was a dream coming true?

If you aren't likeable, many people won't want to hire you no matter how experienced you are. It's just basic psychology.

About the "dying for the job" comment, though, I agree that is going too far. Personally, I think you should project a positive attitude about both your previous job, and about the possibility of working at the new place. But never act in a way that implies you aren't on equal footing with the interviewer. It should be a discussion, not a petition.

Did what I said above seem to imply these things? That's not what I intended at all. Are you interested in what I meant?

Well, "they didn't appear to want the job very badly" strikes a nerve as implying that.

Why would they need to "want the job very badly" instead of merely "wanting the job"?

And "dying for the job" sounds even worse.

>Are you interested in what I meant?

Sure, but tone matters.

I'm not talking about the difference between just wanting a job and over-acting like it's the only thing in the world. I'm not talking about fawning over the interviewer or pretending like there are no other jobs. I'm talking about people who come into an interview with an overtly negative attitude and say things that make it explicitly clear they could care less about the job and make it explicitly clear that they expect less experienced people to adapt to their ways and not the other way around. This is not the norm of my experience, I am referring to the worst interviews I've ever had, and summarizing the reason in what I thought was diplomatic language.

I suspect you're getting confused by my trying to use mild language and be somewhat nice and forgiving about the kind of interviews I've had. When I say I've interviewed people who don't appear to want the job very badly, I am exaggerating in the positive direction. These (few) people were outright antagonistic to the idea of being adaptable and getting along with others.

There's no way you could know these things based on what I wrote. But there's also no reason you need to assume the worst either.

Perhaps a better wording would have clarified the whole thing, like: "They should appear interested in getting the job" or "passionate about their profession".

Okay, so there's a very fine line here. You don't want to show that you need it badly. You want to show that you want it badly.

Need it badly would imply that the reason you're there is for the cash, and you don't care about the company you're applying for or the job you're going to do for them.

Want it badly might likely imply that you're dying to do the job you're applying for, and you're dying to work for this particular company.

A candidate who just needs a job and spends time communicating that they need a job badly is going to lower their chances. A candidate who wants the job badly spends time talking about the company they're applying for, and why that particular company is the place they want to be, and why that particular job is the job they want to do.

> they are so much about pretending

In my experience, pretending doesn't go very far. It's far better to be in a place of complete honesty about your skills and about your needs and wants. When you're honest, and you find the job you actually want, and you apply for that job, it will show and your chances will go up. I've been interviewing engineers for a couple of decades, and I can tell you it's fairly easy to spot people who are pretending about how good they are and how much they want the job, the entire process is designed to weed out pretenders.

How about not asking people to be "dying" for the job, but just be professionals?

Except if the target audience is starry eyed 20-year olds to exploit.

When did merely having a good resume and being professional gone out of fashion?

Please do keep in mind the context of my words. Parent comment said "I need a job badly". You wouldn't walk into an interview and say that out loud, right?

Larger context, OP said he has a good resume and is professional, but it isn't working. There can be more to it, and not because it's fasionable or trendy, but because there always have been and always will be human factors.

I could rephrase what I meant to say as simply try to talk less about what you need and talk more about what the company needs. Let the company ask you about what you need.

As other people have pointed out, getting a job is similar to dating. Mutual interest makes a good pairing, and two parties that are only self-interested makes a bad pairing. It would be a bad idea to tell someone they should date you because you really just want to have sex with someone -- anyone -- right? It's a bad idea to date someone you like who doesn't like you, but agrees to it anyway because you pay for meals. It's a good idea to date someone who likes your personality and looks, and someone who's personality and looks you like, someone who you genuinely want to learn more about and look forward to talking to every day.

This is a common analogy, but one I fundamentally disagree with. Dating is about creating a deep personal bond with a single other person. Getting a job is business, and business is fundamentally about two or more self-interested parties coming to a mutually beneficial agreement. I think not treating the process as such, and treating it like dating, are at the root of this industry's hiring issues.

The analogy isn't perfect, of course, but I only think interviewing and dating are similar in some ways, not all ways, and they aren't the same thing. Of course.

It's true that business is about finances and not bonding, and there are definitely times where it's best to keep that abundantly clear, I think you add a good perspective.

It's also true that I have declined to hire some people primarily due to their negative attitude and declared lack of interest in the company or the job they're applying for, and I know others who've made exactly the same call. I also screwed up a job interview once by being overtly disinterested, and regretted it and it stuck with me.

So, we can certainly disagree about how it's characterized, I don't mind what we call it, but it's still true that coming to a job interview disinterested or only as a self-interested financial arrangement is less likely to score you the job you want.

I can say from personal experience that starting a company truly is similar in many ways to getting married, with all the trials and tribulations. To come to that relationship primarily as a self-interested party simply may not functionally work at all, and it's certainly very common for business partners to be mutually emotionally invested.

Having interviewed some people recently for a more co-founder type of position, the process was more literally like dating than any engineer hiring I did before. People were in fact looking for a personality match, and requested that I take personality tests to validate that. People do look for an alignment of vision, and do evaluate me on the basis that we'll be spending a lot of time together should we pair up. We talked business too, but the evaluation of common goals and personality match, general likability, work ethic, goals and dreams for the future, these things were the primary traits I was judged by, not my technical skills, and not the financial equation. And not by my ass either, so yes, it's not dating, but it was surprisingly close. ;)

I wanted to ask the same.

Assuming that person stays long enough. I would expect either high turnover or low morale in such workplace. Partly because people resent being lied to and this is apparent, partly because the company is full of people on positions they did not wanted to do.

Noticed that too. The job ad will have Haskell, OCaml etc listed but all that shop does is crank out Java.

You mentioned that the feedback you've received has always suggested that you're a great candidate, but they see you in a different role. What kind of role is it? And, is it possible that that role really may be a better fit for you?

If so, you have a choice. Either change careers or try to take corrective action and become a better fit for a PM gig.

Good luck and again, I'm very sorry. Feel free to email me - my address is in my profile.

I eventually figured out that in many cases they had an internal candidate that they were going to hire and they were interviewing you to satisfy some requirement.

At the onsite, when they ask if you have any questions at the end, I now always ask how I stack up to the other candidates and listen to that. If they don't mention anything, I will follow up with "Do you have any internal candidates?" and often they will just casually mention, "Oh yeah, Steve's great, he'd make a good PM."

Now when I follow up for feedback I would say 80-90% sound genuine about better fit and will usually explain why. Before I would say it was around 50/50. So it's possible in your 7 interviews, 3 or 4 of them weren't real, and they did find a better fit for the others which doesn't sound as abnormal.

If that's common, then your sales pitch for yourself isn't targeting the job you're applying for. You need to downplay some of your prior accomplishments, if they're tied to whatever the "other" tends to be, and play up more of what's focused on the particular role you have, even if it's weaker.

A lot of success comes down to dogged persistence. Here's a great book on the subject: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B010MH9V3W/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?...

Talent x effort = skill

Skill x effort = achievement

Grit is required in life. Watch out for claims of otherwise

Grit is not just working hard, but sticking to it for months. Doing what you love and staying in love.

There's a pyramid of goals. Concrete ones on the bottom, like getting up at 8am. As you move up, it gets more abstract. The very top one is the ultimate goal. Grit is holding the same ultimate goal without changing for a very long time.

Grit means doing mid and lower level support goals. "Positive fantasizing" (not focusing on lower and middle level goals) is people without grit do. Short term payoff is feeling good with long term cost of failing.

Story of Buffet's advise: write down 25 career goals. Circle top 5 and do them. Actively ignore others as distractions. Point is time is limited.

Expect to change low level goals. Keep the ultimate goal in mind. Improvise, adapt, overcome.

Grit grows. 70 year olds grittier than 20 year olds. Grit can change.

Grit stages: interest (love doing), practice to be better (improve) than yesterday for years (zero in on weakness), purpose so that work matters (to me and others), and hope (in every stage) so that we get up when knocked down.

People are happier and perform better when their work fit their interest.

Practice: set a stretch goal in one weak area. Seek out challenges not yet met. Seek feedback on what's wrong. Repeat.

Deliberate practice at most one hour at a time, 3-5 hours per day. Deliberate practice is not the same as flow. Challenge above skill level. Requires a lot of effort.

Grittier people experience more deliberate practice and flow. Practice is not supposed to be fun. More effortful practice is more enjoyable (thrill of getting better).

Flow is when not analyzing because most feedback are positive. Deliberate practice is for preparation and flow is for performance.

Quality of deliberate practice is more important than length. 3-5 max hours per day.

Develop a habit of practice, a routine. The author describes rereading last days draft to start off the day. If there's a routine, getting started to practice is easy to start.

Don't be ashamed to make errors. Important to practicing. Emotion-free mistake making.

Purpose starts off selfish, but later must effect other people. Evolutionary roots in both for happiness. People who cooperate are more likely to survive than loners.

Reflect how work help society.

Hope in grit means believing my effort will make tomorrow better. Own efforts can improve the future. I resolve to make tomorrow better.

It isn't suffering that leads to hopelessness, it is suffering that one cannot control.

The optimist are just as likely to encounter bad events as pessimists. But optimists search for temporary causes for the suffering. Pessimists assume permanent causes to blame.

Pessimists say "I'm a loser", a permanent situation. Optimists say "I mismanaged my time," fixable issues.

Pessimists more likely to be depressed and less healthy.

Optimists think of failures as lessons.

Subjective interpretation to objective events give rise to feelings.

CBT aims to treat by helping people to think more objectives by observing self talk and change the bad behavior.

When you keep searching for ways to better the situation, you stand a better chance of finding them. When you stop searching, you are guaranteed to not find them.

Failure is a cue to try harder.

No road is without bumps. Having a growth mindset (believe intelligence is changeable), you believe you can learn to do better. Growth mindset students are much grittier. The opposite is a fixed mindset about intelligence.

People who believe it is their effort rather than natural talent are grittier.

People often have both mindsets. It's important to watch self when slipped up and bring the right mindset.

Grittierness requires recognizing that people get better.

The quote "what doesn't kill us makes us stronger" is only partially true. Only by believing we are in control to try to make things better is it the case. Finding a way out of the suffering is what makes us stronger.

Growth mentality leads to optimistic self talk, leading to perseverance over adversity. Starts with belief of being able to improve intelligence, which is proven true. Next is to practice optimistic self talk.

Best parenting style is authoritative and supportive.

Students with 2 years of the same extracurricular activity has higher grit and success later in life.

Rats that have to work to get food last longer at other harder tasks. Learned industrialness. Applies to humans.

Use group conformity to build grit by being around gritty people.

Also, do you not want to interview for that other role they're offering you? If so, that's fine -- but then feel good about the fact that you're the one making that choice.

I will say, in my experience, a companies interpretation of what a Product Manager sometimes varies like British weather.. It can feel like a Product Manager is something new, but they've existed in their traditional capacity for AT LEAST 25 years (using a friend of mine as an example).

But recently I've seen a trend for Product Manager job descriptions to vary more.. Sometimes being so vague as to describe some sort of wistful 'jack-of-all-trades turd-polisher'.

Perhaps it's as simple as that. You're applying as an experienced Product Manager to businesses that don't understand the role as a veteran like you does.

You also describe yourself as a Product Manager 'leader'. So you manage other Product Managers? I would think that 'smaller companies' have very few or even one Product Manager, and maybe you're seen as overqualified for this?

Good luck.

There's certainly a funk that PMs go through... mid-30s sounds about right. If you aren't getting jobs through connections by your mid 30s... it's going to be REALLY hard to land jobs. Don't forget you're competing against people here... 5, 10, 25... who knows. So you may not be doing anything wrong, you may just not be that top 4% for that one role. That one role isn't all roles... each company is going to need something a little different. So just keep trying.

If you can, find a PM who is a little more senior than you -- someone you trust -- and do a mock interview with them so they can give you their feedback. Ideally this would be someone you meet through a friend of a friend so they can be objective as possible.

Have faith in yourself and others will too. Finding the right job take time.

Opportunity could be just around the corner. Don't give up now! What if it's that 8th or 9th interview that leads to the position you want? Persevere! You could be super close to the end of the race--i.e. to getting the job you're looking for!

For me at least, sometimes opportunity comes when I least expect it, or when I am feeling most down on my luck...

Just out of curiosity-- Why don't you like the product management position?

I have friends for whom 'product management' is their ultimate dream job, hence I am curious about your experiences. I guess the grass is always greener.

What sort of product? What sort of company? What are the major downsides in your view, which are causing you to be depressed?

1) You're perception of yourself and other's perception of you appears to be different. This can occur for a couple of reasons, either your resume says you're something that people don't see when you talk to them in person, or people around you are giving feedback about you that doesn't match what you believe their feedback would be.

In a company setting you can get a "360" review which is basically a survey about you that you take, people who either report to you or are your "customers" take, people who work with you take, and the people you work for (your boss and perhaps their peers). Those exercises, suitably anonymous, can be really helpful in pinning down mismatches between what you think and what others think. The bigger the gap the bigger the problem.

2) A big influence in person to person interviews can be how you take responsibility and give credit. I interviewed a guy once who was great on paper, really knew his stuff when it came to interview questions, but all of the people who interviewed him mentioned that at some point in the interview he spent some time talking about how another person at a former company "screwed him" or "had it out for him" or "sabotaged the project" Etc. Every time the project that wasn't successful was somebody else's problem. I'm sure he wanted us to see him as not the problem in past failures, but instead by blaming everyone else and not taking any of the responsibility he seemed like someone who wasn't a team player. Nobody wants to work with someone who will turn on them if the project is behind schedule.

I don't have any idea if either of those things apply to you so please don't take it personally if I got it all wrong. Good luck with your job search.

Most companies value referrals much higher than unknown applicants. If you have a friend who can vouch for your work ethic and can give you straight forward feedback, that will be the best route. You'll iterate much quicker. Also friends may give you insight on the inside of their companies about how decision-making is going. Once you have sizable work experience and sizable network, you shouldn't be doing the shotgun approach. In my very first job I reached out to a 3rd party recruiter and they helped me get a job in 2 weeks from me doing it on my own for 2 months (not a software dev). After that, my jobs have all been referral based.

It's neat, your answer is in your question. These companies are coming back and saying they have a different role for you.

Yet, instead of being curious for a change, you turn them down? Bizarre.

Perhaps you don't want change after all, since your skillset is similar, they probably want to help you.

I very much understand your frustration with the job market and how things go, because before I was in my current location, I sent out 200+ applications and got 2 interviews with no responses. The cop out advice is to just keep trying, but I would echo sentiments to find a set of friends to interview you in panel interviews and one on one and see what kind of feedback they give, or if you can do better and get a friend of a friend to do it, that may be better since they don't explicitly know you and may give you more constructive criticism.

Let's say you interview pretty well overall, and the interviewer guesses that there's a 80% chance that your previous company is really that bad, but a 20% chance that you are the toxic personality.

In general, a smaller company filling one of its few leadership roles will have less stomach for risk, so any real or perceived warning signs can be grounds for rejection. Even more so if they are small and not growing very quickly.

2) 7 interviews without an offer doesn't mean you are damaged goods, but you didn't mention any feedback or learnings from those 7 interviews. Its ok to ask how you did at the end of an interview. Even without that, what are they telling you without telling you?

* Statement questions like "so it sounds like you don't have direct experience with X?" or "is there a reason why you didn't do Y?" * Enthusiasm/body language changes during the interview - whats the topic when they occur? * Leadership questions like "that does sound like a problem, what did you do to address that?" * Do you feel like you are doing well with some interviewers but not others? peers, senior leadership, engineers, direct reports... they are grading different things

First step would be to ask, at least, the 7 on-sites for feedback. If it's insufficient, ask for more. Explain that you're having trouble at the last hurdle and that their feedback will help. Take that feedback and integrate it in to your approach. Getting feedback can be difficult, especially when it's just you. Consider giving it to some friends and/or mentors to get a clearer view. Choose someone that can bring the most amount of objectivity.

Otherwise... Attend some meetups. Consider blogging and producing some content. Build a profile that projects where you want to be (you should consider, a little, what that might be). If you're passionate and visible in a domain, combined with good skills and experience, then you're gold to these organizations. Often they will come to you.

Also consider being proactive to companies that you want to work for. Engage and see if they have any jobs. Many roles get filled without a Job Description seeing the light of day. Part of doing the above should achieve that.

Finally, consider tackling the problem in a structured way. Interview for a job that's well within your capabilities. Apply for roles that stretch you. These give you a broader understanding on the needs out there in the market (and hopefully what you're capable of).

Good luck.

Really? It's been my experience that companies will not give feedback, at least anything that could be considered detailed feedback, as a blanket policy. The perception at least is that giving feedback opens up the company to potential litigation and provides the company no benefit.

Even if someone does provide feedback, it usually can't be trusted, and often times, interviewers can't even articulate why they're passing certain candidates.

This despite the fact that they recruited me through their code jam, in which whether your code actually works is the only criterion.

It seems people just don't like to be pinned down.

A freeform box for rejection rationale will probably never get a good response rate, because it's work for people to make up a plausible-sounding explanation for why they liked someone else more (and this explanation is rarely if ever reflective of reality; people make up intellectually-satisfying stories to justify their impulsive/emotional decisions). However, a radio box that offered rejection reasons like "bad technical fit", "bad culture fit", or "good candidate for the future; not enough slots right now" may see better response rates.

An interview process is a huge investment for a person, especially if it's face to face. We're talking hours, maybe days. Not giving feedback is really an insult.

A poor interview experience is a massive miss for a company. If they don't see that, then I'd take that as a bad sign. Equally, a good interview experience can be a huge positive.

Word will get around, and on Glassdoor. That's a very real risk, significantly more than the threat of litigation. This is expecially true in creative, engineering, etc roles.

The solution is good interview process and training, not a blanket no-feedback rule. That's a race to the bottom.

One place I interviewed at, an educational institution, apparently had some very serious behind-the-scenes arguments and some hurt feelings between friends, because most of the interviewers wanted me for the job but one of the decision makers had already promised it to someone else. (Which is illegal, I might add.)

That's the closest I've been to "Here's why you didn't get the job..."

[edit] I'm not including the times someone's discriminated against me for daring to have a disability.

Companies that have declined to give me feedback after an interview include Google, Facebook, small startups and medium sized places. I have not seen any evidence that you are correct.

Very few companies will provide specific, direct feedback even after a face-to-face interview. In fact, their HR has likely coached them not to.

I try to provide both positive and one factor that influenced it not being a match. This sometimes ends up causing problems for my employer, likely mostly because I don't do it well, but it helps me grow in having difficult conversations and I feel some feedback is the least I can do after the candidate spending so much time and energy. I've learned to ask people first, "is it ok if I share some frank feedback?"

2) How do you present yourself? Are you easy to talk to, relaxed, comfortable, confident?

3) Are you well qualified in the areas you are targeting? I'm not just talking about the job function, product management. I'm talking about the specific ecosystem of the products (web, mobile, cloud, hardware devices, etc.) and which industry segment (medical, energy, transportation, etc.)

4) Related to that, if you do have a specific area of expertise, maybe try going after just that area.

5) Really hope this is not part of it, but do you live in a bigoted or (sometimes a different thing) a non-diverse part of the country? If yes, that could be one piece of the puzzle. Not with every interview, but some of them. For that case, short of moving somewhere else, I guess it's mostly out of your hands. Again hopefully it's not this.

6) You didn't mention if you ended up interviewing for the other role they suggested, and if not, why not. Seems like they are offering you a chance to get in the door, so maybe you're just blind to what is being offered. You didn't say what was wrong with the other roles.

In any case to find out if it's related to question 2 above, maybe you should do some practice interviews with local friends or better yet experienced coaches. Could be eye opening if they are willing to give you frank feedback.

The other issue is the kind of job you have: product management. Every guy in IT wanna move up; so, the first thing was told to these guys to get an MBA. (Now we have morning, evening and day time MBAs, on campus and off campus MBAs. Even Wharton is called MBA factory these days.) So, we have a glut of candidates in the product management.

Top tier start ups don't like to deal with non-elite candidates. Here, eliteness = which MBA school one went to--whether Stanford/Harvard/Wharton; which company did he work for, if any. I remember a guy here, who worked at Yahoo in product mgmt; he is not white, but born in America; he did not not have an MBA from H/S/W, but from somewhere else. FB interviewed him and rejected him later. I know of one who graduated from Stanford GSB, and joined FB in the product management just before FB went to public.

Product management jobs at top companies like Google and Facebook look for eliteness. So, just start talking to people, and get some referral and see how it goes.

Perhaps it's time for a career change. If you are not made for software engineering, perhaps QA? Maybe you strive for something more technical, maybe scrum master? Technical writer? Graphic designer? Technical evangelist? Sales engineer?

These are things only you know. Perhaps taking a personality assessment, or scanning blogs for career ideas are steps you can take. Maybe answering this question: If you could be an expert at anything, what would that be?

P.S.: I don't believe it is your accent, or your ethnicity. I've interviewed plenty of Indians, Russians, and Eastern Europeans over the years. If they can code and/or know their stuff, they get the job.

My recommendation would be to identify a handful of companies that you'd really want to work for and instead invest heavily in building relationships with people connected to those companies. Attend meetups at the company's office, reach out to employees on linkedin to chat, or find out who the hiring manager is and see if they'd be willing to speak with you over the phone.

During my limited time as a hiring manager, I've experienced the impact that a pre-existing relationship has on the hiring process. Even if I've only had a coffee or phone conversation with someone, they're almost always guaranteed a better shot at landing a job than if they apply cold.

Keep two things in mind 1) You are the interviewer's bitch. They can ask any and every question from your resume. And in product management, all questions are subjective. 2) Interview is not reflection of your on job performance, its a reflection of how much you can convince a new guy. You only have to convince one company unlike sales people who have to convince someone every single time.

But, looking at what you have written, my guess is that your leadership aspect is not showing up well. Atleast, thats what happened to me.

Think about why you're being rejected - you have just not yet found the job that fits you. So keep looking. It's hard but it will happen. Be positive yaar :)

You also should think of the people in your network who work at companies you're interested in. Finding a good role once you cross a certain threshold is difficult, is it possible that you have high standards and are looking down on some of the interviewers?

Forget about being Indian. If you don't care about it, you'll only be focused on what you bring to the table. You don't want to work in a team where race matters anyway.

Otherwise, try to stay in the same industry and go for a company that isn't as well known and where your experience would be especially helpful.

What are those "other roles"? How much of product marketing vs product management vs project management vs people management do you currently do? For the "other role" what is the same vs different to what you currently do (not what your job title is, but what you do)?

I feel you will get the best insight if you take a look at the differences between your current day to day tasks and the tasks for the "other roles".

I also think that interviewing for a leadership PM position is much more difficult...

What is the other role companies are suggesting you for? Perhaps your resume, which is helping you get so many PM interviews, doesn't match with where your experience actually is. That's not to say you don't have valuable experience, but it may not align with the role you think it does at other companies even if, in theory, the titles are the same.

Another way to put it, maybe your current PM role and experience is, for some reason, misaligned with what it means to be a PM at the companies you're interviewing with?

- team-fit: this is a big one specially for smaller companies, they wanna be 100% sure this new hire will be just like everyone else so they can all get along, so next time you're doing an onsite do a quick look up of people you'll be interviewing to find as much as about their hobbies, side-projects, etc. as you can and talk about those things

- your presentation: how you carry yourself and behave is another thing that only applies to onsites, you gotta be confident or let your inner geek out if that's who you are, acting super nervous and non-confident sends the wrong signal

- answering the questions the way they want you to, it might have been a while since you last successfully interviewed and got a job so brush up on what the trendy interview questions are for role nowadays, go to Glassdoor look up similar roles and see what the questions were and what answers were the best, you don't wanna deviate too far from those, but you gotta treat like the ACT it's bs for the most parts but that'll determine if you end up at MIT or the city community college.

Other than that, there are some aspects of Indian culture that are daunting to a potential employer. "How many people do you manage" is a common question to get during arranged marriages. The American equivalent would be "how much money do you make". It's a lot easier to pay someone more than give them more people to manage. You really need to show that you've bought into the American versions of self-worth, work ethic, and personal responsibility (that last one may seem weird, but it's often the case in India that if someone forgets to do something, you are the idiot for not reminding them).

P.S. Your stats honestly aren't that bad. People used to wallpaper their rooms/corridors with rejection letters before things went digital. Getting more perspectives never hurts though.

Is it possible that it's heavier than you think? Depending on the role, if your accent is heavy enough to add cognitive burden for listeners, it could be part of what's holding you back. Fortunately, it's something that can be addressed - it takes work, but it can be done!

When you are fresh out of school, you're hired for general human capital. It's many people chasing many jobs. The best people get many offers. When you're later in your career, it's more of a matching problem.

Net - hang in there!

As a software engineer these are the character traits I most value for a product manager:

- Knowledge about the history of a specific class of products; CAD, Mapping, consumer electronics... whatever it is we are selling.

- Capable of effectively translating customer needs to engineers.

- Capable of effectively translating engineer concerns to customers.

- The ability to prioritize requirements in succinct communication in both e-mail and in person.

Unfortunately "12 years of well known brands" does not mean much to me unless that experience is very closely related to the domain of the company. In a parallel example; I am not going to hire an 12 year expert in kernel hacking to build my SAAS payment system.

Unfortunately (for many people) software trends come and go fairly quickly. Business models of yesterday become the pejoratives of today. If your specific area of expertise has met such a fate... you need to re-tool.

Find a specific narrow niche in the larger business market and become an expert in that 1 thing. Grow outwardly from there. But target it based on your true personal interest... not what you think will be most profitable.

Email is me @ glenngillen.com

What are the other roles? So you've had a bunch of instances where they're eager to hire you it sounds like, and you hate your current job, so why no grab one of those other, slightly different, opportunities?

I suspect it may be your interview style and recommend asking a close confidante about it. For PM type role, it is more about the ability to influence and earning trust. Keep trying! We all have rough patches !

Like a few people said already, it's very likely that your resume is overselling you, suggestion: remove the bells & whistles.

A few common "red" flags come to my mind: - Tell me something you like about your current job? Nothing. (Really, nada, zap, nothing?) - Why do you want to leave your current job? My manager sucks, my peers are the worst, yada yada. (Blame others, have nothing good to say about your current job) - Why do you want to work with us? I like startups. (Shows zero research on the company, area, industry). - Tell me about a time you had a impossible deadline, what did you do? I worked really hard and communicated effectively (Some utterly vague response).

Find something you are excited about it, be genuine when applying (like prepare a cover letter, explain what you would do in the first month on that position, etc), be humble and show interest on the company, explain how you will make a difference.

To my view, the interview is to screen out the "business" types who are just repeating or rehashing well-known processes you can get from watching a few podcasts and read a couple books. Teach me something I do not know (I am not a professional product manager, so if the person I am hiring cannot tell me something novel then they shouldn't be a professional product manager either).

I think it sucks, but this is way to litigious a society for it to work any other way.

It makes me wonder if there is some opportunity for a middle man service that anonymizes the source of the feedback.

If I were in this position (I've done something similar for a friend in the Design industry), I would:

1.) find someone in your LinkedIn network in a senior PM or PM management position from your chosen industry, 2.) send them a few job reqs. from positions where you have applied, your resume, etc. 3.) do a couple short mock interviews (10m-15m) 4.) discuss patterns that emerge, and compare / contrast your experiences in previous interviews.

Likely, this person can be totally upfront and honest about his/her impressions, and how he would frame his hiring decision, or anything that may jump out as to why you might be getting a lot of `NO`s.

Best of luck in the job hunt!

http://americandigest.org/mt-archives/5minute_arguments/mike...

I'm happy to jump on a call to learn more and give you honest feedback that would hopefully be helpful.

Feel free to drop me a line - nir AT yodas.com

that out of the way. not getting feedback is probably not an option at this point. you need honest feedback from someone who is able to accurately evaluate your interview performance. i would be pressing for more honest feedback in my interviews. it might help to humble up a little bit and explain to them what you've explained to us. (post-rejection, of course...)

might be unorthodox but if i were you i would consider scrounging up 30 bucks or something and soliciting an "interview consultation" on craigslist or some Slack channels or something.

Maybe focus on what attracts you to the company at which you're interviewing

Don't give up now even though you feel like it!

While I don't have 12 yrs of experience as you do, I had almost 2 yrs of exp leaving Uni and still had a hard time getting a job!

Just out of curiosity - are you looking for jobs at startups? and are they located in SF/SV?

As a final point, from what I've been told it's a better idea to deal with good recruiters instead. Maybe asking your colleagues for recruiter recommendations and contacting them would get the results you are looking for.

In your shoes I'd hire somebody to do practice interviews with. Look either for somebody who does that for a living or, perhaps better, a product management consultant who will consult on your career.

One thought, though: it sounds like you're running from, not running toward. When I'm interviewing product managers, key characteristics include excitement for the domain and energy for the work. That's because they need to have enough enthusiasm for what they're building to get everybody else charged up too. If you're burnt out and just looking to escape, people may be spotting that.

- Where are you based, and are you legally able to work where you're applying without too much overhead? Sometimes a company may like you but not be willing to jump through hoops after they realize how hard it will be to hire you, in which case they still interview to check if your talent justifies the hassle.

- Are you always on time, and always replying fast to emails? Lack of punctuality hurts bad, especially in a management role.

- Do you have a tendency to blame your current environment or your co-workers in interviews? No one wants to work with someone who's going to blame them or their company.

- What do you answer to the classic "where do you see yourself in 10 years?" Interview questions? This has a very strong impact on any large company.

- How long did you stay in your previous and current gigs? Job hopping can be a red flag.

- Did you ever get to the salary negotiation phase? If so, were you the one asking first? A candidate asking for too much might not look attractive.

- What is the size of the organizations you apply to? Your experience might not match what they're looking for.

- How do you define product management? Product Management is such a wide net (Design / Management / understanding of tech/...) that what you're currently doing and what the companies are looking for might not match. This happens more often than we could expect.

To anyone else reading this, but looking for a programming job (and not product management like OP), add those questions to your list:

- Do you contribute to open source? A lack of contributions will prevent your interviewer from selling you properly to a team.

- How good are you with algorithms and data structures on a whiteboard? This is like a sport, and as backwards as it is, it is different from actual programming, so you should actually train interviewing as a separate skill if you're not proficient.

Finally, 15 interviews for 50 application is not terrible, answer those questions honestly and you're probably going to do better!

Also I don't count phone interviews as interviews. Those are just to weed out candidates from the in person interview.

Lastly, I think we're missing some info. You must be doing something odd on the phone or you would've had an in person interview. Do you have any friends in management who can do mock interviews with you to figure out what it is?

Even if you go off on your own to find a job apart from the recruiter, the advice they give you on candidate assessment will be invaluable feedback for you.

How prominent is the question that "Will s/he be able to fit into our culture?" ... when it comes to hiring above 30 people out of India, with an Indian accent? (..haha)

I may have thrown too many boxes there... disclaimer: I have been applying to many such companies and I am above 30 Indian guy (with an accent) and many times the company has most developers under 30.

Your article talks about what you want and how you feel.

Consider what those companies want and how they feel and try to determine why they failed to pick you over another candidate.

Talk to people you trust and ask for honest feedback on your weaknesses. Compare those to the things you learned during the interview.

Improve your skill, your communication style, and your contacts.

Continue to drive for the role you want, you will get it when you shape yourself into someone that can genuinely convince people you have the right stuff.

The number of QA managers we rejected because they said they don't want to be QA managers ... eesh.

If you are one of those rare exception and technically sound person, then you need to keep trying to overcome the general perception created by fellow Indian managers. Good luck.

I'm wondering if you come across as hating your current job so much that you are ready to take anything that will get you off you current job

You may have to beat it statistically (more interviews) or go with the "unspoken" employment narratives - get hired by a friend, figure out how to get someone to make a position for you.

Have you considered looking for jobs that aren't in product management? Do you have any other strengths you could leverage? Could you learn and develop a skill that would open up more jobs to you while at your current job (eg in your spare time)?

Why not interview for this other role?

It sounds like people like you. They want to hire you. But they perhaps they want to hire you for a slightly different role. Why not consider this role?

It's very hard to get people to diagnose the problem online but maybe if you give more details we can help you out. Otherwise reach out to a trusted colleague.

Otherwise, as others say, just be persistent. Sometimes you have a run of bad luck but it will pass. Don't read too much into it.

This would be my first guess. Ask for less money. Even phone up places where you were rejected and say your expectations have changed.

(Accent yes, but no one has asked me to repeat anything in many years. In recent times folks have asked me if I was born in the US. So let's get that out of the way)

Ok, what is the one weird trick. Its actually two.

1. Know yourself: I wasn't really into software engineering, I was a scientist, and I really wanted to get into SE because those jobs were more abundant, esply when you are junior you can't crack into the scientist job unless you have a Phd - I dropped out. When I am at an interview, I couldn't help but convey that deep down I really didn't want this job. This will show, you could pretend on the phone, its harder when in person. Folks still do it, I couldn't. Understand who you are, and that you really want this job, you are hungry for it. Go ahead and show it, let them feel your animal energy! For all his faults, and almost all of his person is a fault, the current US president has "raw animal energy” (RAE), which people like, love even. You can get a job you are not even qualified for by just having this RAE. So get to know some of that in your own personality.

2. Dude(or girl) I can't stress this second point enough. One of the biggest things that is different about Indian culture is this. In India if you are confident and know a lot - you are trained to show that power by being Quiet. Silent. Calm. This is the case with many cultures. It is not however the case with American business culture. Please read my point above about bringing out your animal awesomeness. In the US, I don't know how else to say this: being bombastic is what will pass for confidence. (Bombastic from an Indian perspective, of course it is just awesomeness from the American perspective). Show your energy, jump around. I know, it will be very unnatural if you are new to it. So I’d recommend acting classes like some of the other comments, but I didn’t take any. I was able to channel my inner panda by just being aware of this problem.

Think of your personality itself as having an accent. It is not a crime to have an accent, but if you can tone it down, it helps everyone involved. This is what you need to do. You have to not only be confident, you have also to convey it effectively in the language of the culture you are in.

If all seven onsite interviews have been "serious interviews" then zero job offers is a bit low, but still could be just bad luck: 1 chance in 2 to the 7 (128).

That said, mid thirties -- thirty-five to be exact -- is the age where employees in the high technology industry start to report increased difficulties finding jobs. Look around -- not a lot of people who look over thirty-five.

Very few companies seem to be looking for 10+ years of experience. Most job postings on LinkedIn and other job boards will ask for 3-5 or 3-7 years of experience. Some for ten years, but not that many. You state you have twelve (12) years of experience.

It is difficult to know the reasons for this pattern in high tech. Probably all of these contribute:

o conscious and sub-conscious age discrimination

o companies are looking for young people who can work long hours, unpaid overtime. Overall stamina does decline with age. It is also harder to get more experienced people to work unpaid overtime as they recognize what is happening -- aren't fooled by unrealistic schedules, manufactured crunches over trade show appearances, and other deceptions and demand to be paid.

o Companies and managers feel threatened by employees who know a lot, preferring young people with little or limited experience.

US born "native" white men with perfect English report same difficulties frequently. It may have little to do with being Indian or having an accent, although it is surely good advice to work on accent and mastery of American English which differs in a number of ways from Indian English. Indian English is derived from British English in the 1940's and 1950's that was taught in missionary schools in India. There are a lot of web sites and blog posts now on the differences between the two dialects.

Also, if you are on a visa like the H1-B, that can be an issue as well. Probably easier to switch jobs with US permanent residency (green card) or US citizenship.

If you are unhappy with your current job and have trouble leaving it, non-work social activities, physical exercise, and sometimes meditation can be helpful. Unfortunately, under stress it is very easy to cut back on social activities and exercise, but actually you should do the opposite -- increase these -- under sustained stress.

Perhaps talk to some older product managers who are not trying to hire you, colleagues rather than employers, about their experiences and what might be an issue in the job hunt.

Good luck!

I'm lucky enough that my day job isn't that stressful that I do not get "burned out" when I get home to work on my personal projects.

I love my job and I love working with the people in the company. The culture is very good and not toxic. However, trying something new or building something fun, it is not possible always within the job. It's fixing bugs; figuring out processes, etc. But as long as I am not burned out at work, I still find a few hours every night to do something I really want.

Without my personal projects I would be bored to death.