Tracking is currently a hot topic in the US as well, where a different approach, labeled Do Not Track is being pursued. I happen to be at the thick of it, so I thought I'd add that to the discussion.

Do Not Track (http://donottrack.us/) is fundamentally an opt-out from tracking rather then an opt-in, which makes it much harder to claim that it will threaten the ad industry, startups, puppies, or anything else [1]. It is an HTTP header which, if enabled, signals to advertisers and other trackers to stop tracking you across multiple third-party websites. First-party tracking is OK.

The Do Not Track option has already been implemented in Firefox 4. As of yesterday it is an Internet-Draft[2], and on the legislation side, Congresswoman Speier recently introduced a bill to give the Federal Trade Commission powers to enforce Do Not Track.[3]

I'm a computer scientist and this is my first major foray into the policy arena, and having worked with most of the people/entities involved in this effort, I have to say I've been pleasantly surprised how the disparate parts of the technology/policy/regulatory machinery started to work together.

I don't want to get into which approach is better, but just wanted to describe how we're doing it in the US. Feedback welcome.

[1] http://cyberlaw.stanford.edu/node/6592

[2] http://cyberlaw.stanford.edu/node/6633

[3] https://speier.house.gov/index.cfm?sectionid=48&itemid=6...

Otherwise this measure is bland as it'd totally rely on the way the legislation is implemented or in the trackers' good faith.

Liability should be owned by the one providing the service you're consuming. The same way as they'd if I were paying them with my credit card in their commerce, I'm giving them my personal information as a retribution but instead of my credit card number.

It also gives flexibility back to site owners. If you business model depends on tracking (so much that a visitor who opts out of tracking costs you money) they are free to redirect the user away or throw up a paywall.

http://www.edps.europa.eu/EDPSWEB/webdav/site/mySite/shared/...

Read point 50.

The general gist seems to be, that if you use a cookie to track the communications between you and the user (à la sessions), no problem. But if you are using a cookies to track where and/or what the user has been doing across sites then you need to make said user aware.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

I think this regards storing the users locale information in a cookie .. you wouldn't need to store this in a cookie if you can store it on your server which links the locale information via a session cookie.

[Edit] In any event, I agree with you that the article blows this issue completely out of proportion.

Note: what matters is the difference in the eyes of those who interpret the directive. In this sense, the actual verbiage (and not authorial intent) is paramount.

But I've only skimmed through it and it's making my head hurt.

edit: I wrote opt-in but meant to say "provide a warning"

Google Analytics uses a 1st-party cookie set by the website that runs it.

http://code.google.com/apis/analytics/docs/concepts/gaConcep...

EDIT: This [1] seems quite useful.

[1] http://www.google.com/support/forum/p/Google+Analytics/threa...

'This is how its always been done' is not reason enough. Many sites require you to accept terms&conditions. Another checkbox really won't matter.

This is actually beneficial for users; and the ones who refuse are probably not the users you are looking for.

"It clearly makes UK companies less competitive because sites we build will need to be plastered with warnings – and our competitors will not. It is a well known fact that at each stage of a signup process you lose customers – if you have to have a big warning sign just for a cookie that will remember you for purely convenience so that it keeps you logged in. The user wont read that detail – they will just think your a privacy nightmare and wont sign up."

An American startup doing business globally and with citizens of the UK would have to abide by this law too, though, right?

On a side note, In theory if you are EU company you cannot use a CRM which hosts your data outside of the EU. For a USA CRM company only way to get around this "Safe Harbor Policy". Do you know how many SaaS CRMs apply Safe Harbor Policy? AFAIK Only 1, SalesForce.

But obviously there are thousands of Europan users of these CRM companies which violate this EU law.

If you're in a business like that, where people are trusting you with that kind of sensitive information, I think you expect that serious customers are going to ask and they're going to need straight answers. I would agree that this is a barrier to entry for start-ups, but I think if you're trying to enter that kind of market but you aren't in a position to provide that level of service, you're already dead anyway.

Rather than taking the hit to their bottom line, publishers will adjust by making explicit user opt-in mandatory. Since explicit opt-in is nice and unambiguous, the targeting itself can then be a lot more invasive.

I really don't understand the desire to mess with the current system we have today, which works well enough. The small percentage of users who truly care about tracking have simple and effective technical solutions available to them. Publishers turn a blind eye to these unprofitable users, since their numbers are small. Finally, since most ad targeting currently falls in a policy 'grey area', the ad industry self-polices reasonably well.

At least there's going to be some interesting startup opportunities in detecting tracking circumvention and forcing compliance.

The current system does not work. Tracking people around the Internet is shady behaviour any way you cut it, and a lot of people don't like it.

A lot more people don't even know about it, which is why the effect on sites today is still relatively small. Try sampling a population who have been fully informed about what is going on and see the reaction you get.

Ultimately, businesses do not have carte blanche to engage in whatever shady practices they like in the interests of increasing profits. This is why we have laws and why we punish businesses that break those laws.

If publishers who want to spy on everyone make opt-in mandatory in response to measures like this, they will just create a market for publishers who are willing to share their content with ads based on that content alone rather than on tracking individual visitors' personal details. This worked well enough to establish things like Google ads in the first place, after all.

I have about as much sympathy for any company hit by these measures as I have for cigarette companies who are forced to display a warning about the proven health implications of their product in big letters on the packet.

I've yet to see a 'fully informed' sample from anyone. While people don't like getting tracked, they don't like getting tracked in contrast to an imaginary situation where they can access all the same content with no tracking whatsoever, which simply isn't possible.

Whenever people complain about ad targeting, you should think of the guy who spends all his time grousing about taxes while still wanting the government to pay his for roads and his Medicare and his Social Security. Same thing.

Ultimately, businesses do not have carte blanche to engage in whatever shady practices they like in the interests of increasing profits.

Of course. This is why online businesses will end up doing what, for example, a credit card provider or a magazine publisher does - they'll tell you that they're going to sell your information six ways as a condition of receiving the service, and the public will say 'well, I want the service, so what choice do I have?' Unless, of course, the government makes the very practice of ad targeting illegal, in which case the content goes behind a paywall where the poor don't get to read it.

If publishers who want to spy on everyone make opt-in mandatory in response to measures like this, they will just create a market for publishers who are willing to share their content with ads based on that content alone...

Now this argument is like the guy who thinks the government can balance its budget and lower taxes just by getting rid of some sort of vague unspecified 'waste'.

You are more than welcome to try to make real money through contextual advertising alone. Unless you own a search engine or are churning out made-for-AdSense content tailored specifically to search queries, you will fail. Brand advertisers doesn't do much contextual, so say goodbye to agency CPMs. The contextual stuff itself performs horribly when users aren't explicitly in 'search' mode. Why do you think those 'three weird tips to losing belly fat' ads are everywhere instead of Google AdSense? Yes, even that spray-and-pray CPA stuff outperforms contextual. Now picture all your brand advertising going away and trying to subsist solely on the pittance you get from education loan and car insurance ads. Now picture doing this while trying to produce quality content. Good luck.

I get that people don't like advertising, and I get that they don't like analytics. People expect the web to be like a backlit newspaper, and when they find out that their reading material is reading them back, they're disconcerted. However, they're just going to have to get over it, because that's the real price of 'free'. The alternative is paying for it, which helps turn the internet into a place for the privileged.

I've yet to see a scenario that's going to end up better than the muddling-through we're doing now. You can effectively opt-out just by installing an extension, as can anyone else who really, truly cares about a website knowing they're a college-educated male between the ages of 25 and 34. Stop trying to fix the world, you're simply going to make it worse.

However, if someone is visiting a site about, say, cats, it is still possible to show them ads for pet-care with no tracking required. If they then visit a site about data structure, then you show them ads about, say, data structure text-books, but the advertiser can't reliably detect that they are the same person who just visited the site about cats, so can't show them another pet care ad.

Tracking users might slightly improve the targeting of ads, but not by much - saying it will make companies in the EU unprofitable is extreme hyperbole.

Of course, the draft directive may not actually be effective, especially as IPv6 rolls out and NAT becomes progressively less necessary and common. IPv6 address + browser header fingerprinting could easily be almost as accurate as cookies to track users, and it doesn't require storing any information.

Most of the good small-scale sites I visit are related to some particular topic, perhaps a hobby or a particular technical subject. That means they already have a ready-targeted audience without any tracking whatsoever, so if there are any related products to advertise at all, they are pretty much a marketer's ideal channel. I don't know the operators of most of the sites I use personally, of course, but a few of those I do know get guaranteed rates from specialist advertisers based on real contracts that would make the average CPM-based ad-networked blogger cry.

Larger-scale sites tend to have more options open to them anyway once their user base has reached critical mass. You get to the scale of corporate sponsorship, serious donation volumes, and eventually the kind of mainstream advertising campaigns you see with mass media, major sports events, etc.

Obviously there are lots of other kinds of sites, but mostly run by people or organisations for their own reasons that don't necessarily involve profit.

What's left? Small-scale sites that need to make a significant amount of money yet have no particular speciality nor offer any particularly original and valuable content that others aren't contributing for free?

By the way, I don't accept your analogy between this situation and taxes at all, but I have no interest in getting into a superficial political debate that I don't think is particularly relevant.

Also by the way, I don't have much problem with prohibiting this kind of tracking outright either. Privacy laws are, IMNSHO, not nearly strong enough in most jurisdictions today. Far too many people wind up suffering significant harm in one form or another as a result, and if the trend for tracking everyone all the time continues along its current path, things will surely become much worse. If a few minor web sites have to be lost for preventing massive, organised surveillance of everyone's private lives, then I'm sorry but I consider that a small price to pay.

'Mainstream advertising campaigns' for larger publishers are absolutely and completely reliant on third-party tracking and targeting - for frequency capping, serving verification, and demographic targeting. If these tools go away, the branded ad spend stays on television.

The New York Times is the most obvious example of a publisher (and journalism the most obvious sector) that'd be negatively impacted by Do Not Track. They're making significant revenue from their online business right now, but they also have very significant expenses. It costs money to run a news organization capable of international reporting and investigative journalism. 'Minor websites' are not the issue here - it's the major websites that are concerned.

I'm calling it a night, but I'll wrap up with a couple of quotes from the Online Publishers Association (which includes the NYT and every other major American news organizations) comment on the FTC's "Protecting Consumer Privacy in an Era of Rapid Change" preliminary report:

Online publishers should have the right to offer their content and services on any lawful terms that are explicitly communicated to consumers and withhold access from those who do not agree to such terms. To require otherwise would burden publishers’ First Amendment speech with free riders who enjoy the benefits of access to valuable content without providing fair value in exchange.

[D]efault rules that prevent fair value exchanges of digital content for user data could harm consumer welfare by reducing incentives for some publishers to invest in the production of content and/or creating incentives for publishers to charge or charge more for content that they would otherwise make available for free or at a lower cost.

I think advertising itself is more of an annoyance than a serious harm in most cases, though I would certainly regard targeting certain profiles with advertising for certain products as abuse. That is mainly where the target is unlikely or unable to make sound judgements, for example where children, adults with learning difficulties, those suffering from a recent emotional trauma, or those who are recognisably not well-informed about things like legal, medical or financial matters are involved.

However, what really worries me is that it's not only advertising that can be driven by this kind of personal profiling, and the effects in other cases can be far greater than the irritation of seeing yet another toy advert because you just uploaded some baby photos.

For example, here in the UK, there was a lot of media attention a couple of days ago, because it looks like car insurers are going to be forced to stop offering different prices to male and female customers just because of their gender. The insurers, of course, have been profiling, and argue that on average young male drivers are more expensive in terms of the accidents they have and the resulting cost. However, while there may be some correlation there, that doesn't imply a causative effect in any individual case, and it doesn't change the fact that there are many safe male drivers who are paying more and many dangerous female drivers who are paying less. Since all drivers are required by law to have insurance in my country, this sort of profiling has effectively meant that many good male drivers have been charged thousands of pounds of basically unescapable tax, just for fitting a naively constructed risk profile.

Is it such a leap to wonder what would happen if health insurance companies were able to start profiling on grounds that were not directly clinically relevant, particularly in countries where private health insurance is the norm?

What about profiling and employer blacklists: sorry, we can't give you the job, because even though you appear on the surface to be an excellent and highly qualified candidate, we've analysed your friendship network and several of your regular contacts have photos up on Facebook that our automated analysis software thinks show them being excessively drunk, which means that statistically there is a relatively high chance of you also having your work performance impaired for alcohol-related reasons. Oh, and just to save you some time, don't bother applying for any other jobs where your hard-earned specialist skills and useful experience would be relevant, because we know that the other four big name employers all check the same databases we do.

> I'm calling it a night, but I'll wrap up with a couple of quotes from the Online Publishers Association

As far as I'm aware, no-one is saying that publishers can't offer content on their own terms. The publishers will simply have to be transparent and up-front about what those terms really are now, and compete accordingly. Moreover, where there are monopolies or essential services involved, consumer protection regulation may be warranted in the same way that state-sanctioned monopolies, such as our railway and postal networks, are sometimes subject to pricing constraints dictated to them other than by market forces.

Pascal Van Hecke wrote a useful comment explaining the situation and clearing the misunderstandings. The comment can be read here: http://eu.techcrunch.com/2011/03/09/stupid-eu-cookie-law-wil...

The real problem about this Directive (it's not a law, European Union does not make laws!), is how it will be converted in law by the single Countries; this could be the real source of confusion.

The real purpose of this directive is forcing to ask explicit consent for behavioral targeting purposes, not for simple analytics' cookies. We can't create buzz based on a misunderstanding!

Advertising is the life-blood of publishers on the Internet. Without advertising (and by extension, tracking) many of the sites you enjoy every day would cease to exist.

At least using cookies you CAN opt out (via browsing settings and plugins). All that will happen is that the tracking networks will switch to browser fingerprinting making tracking harder to control and more opaque.

It's been a little while since I talked to a specialized lawyer about this, but if I remember correctly, the same regulations would apply to this tracking strategy.

Just because you fund your content through ads, that doesn't mean someone else can't use a different model. Sorry to be brutal, but if you can't find a viable alternative model when ads aren't cutting it any longer, maybe your content simply isn't worth that much and losing your site isn't a great loss to anyone else.

Moreover, just because you associate ads with tracking, that doesn't mean everyone else does. The most lucrative advertising deals I know about are between sites catering to particular interest groups and advertisers who also cater to those groups and make a direct agreement with the site. It takes actual work to set this up, but can be very lucrative for all concerned, particularly without any middleman ad network taking a big cut of any money changing hands. Many models from classic sponsorship deals to modern product placement approaches are based on this idea.

> All that will happen is that the tracking networks will switch to browser fingerprinting making tracking harder to control and more opaque.

That's probably going to be illegal, too.

In any case, browser fingerprinting is becoming a hot topic for all the wrong reasons. I expect near-future browsers will basically kill it as a technique anyway.

Me and 99% of the sites I have read today...

> The most lucrative advertising deals I know about are between sites catering to particular interest groups and advertisers

In my experience, the most lucrative advertising campaigns are based on audience tracking and retargeting.

99%? Really?

I'm just looking through my browser history, and I can't see any site I've visited today that appears to be funded only by the kind of targeted ads we're discussing.

> In my experience, the most lucrative advertising campaigns are based on audience tracking and retargeting.

Perhaps you are fixating on certain types of campaign, then? Either that or you have very limited experience of different possibilities, but from your other comments, I doubt that is the case.

I think thats a key point. ALL banner advertising would be affected by this change. All ad servers use cross domain cookie tracking of some kind. If not to track user behaviour, its (for example) to track impressions to make sure that you dont show the same ad to the same user more than a set number of times. That is also a 3rd party cookie.

Without that ability it will be hard (impossible?) to rate limit campaigns to users, thus increasing the cost effectiveness to the advertiser and eventually hurting publishers as advertising money is diverted elsewhere.

In short, this rule would affect ALL banner adverts on all sites. So 99%, yes (at least the content sites I have read today).

No, it wouldn't. That's what several people in this discussion have been trying to explain.

Banners hosted locally and not by a third party service probably won't be affected at all.

Even banners hosted by a third party service won't be affected if they chose their content based only on the nature of the site where the banner would appear.

The only people who will lose out are the ad networks that track users as they move around different sites, and their business model and working practices are incompatible with my ethics (and, apparently, those of many other people, including those governing at EU level).

We should lose the conditionals, by the way. This has already been approved at EU level, and it will therefore become law throughout the EU in due course unless something dramatic happens. Given that the only people I've seen objecting even slightly seem to be those who are currently doing exactly the dubious things that these measures are intended to prohibit, "something dramatic" seems unlikely.

> Without that ability it will be hard (impossible?) to rate limit campaigns to users, thus increasing the cost effectiveness to the advertiser and eventually hurting publishers as advertising money is diverted elsewhere.

Why can't the advertisers simply re-evaluate the rates they pay per impression based on the expected cost/benefit under the new model?

Or just adopt one of the many pricing models that is based on actual results like CPC, instead of assuming that CPM is always going to be the right answer?

So you have to install and manage your own local ad server to earn ad revenue from your site? Many publishers large and small use ad servers e.g. doubleclick, adtech to avoid this overhead.

>Why can't the advertisers simply re-evaluate the rates they pay per impression based on the expected cost/benefit under the new model?

Yes, publishers loose out once again.

No, you just have to use a system that doesn't try to track users everywhere they go.

> Many publishers large and small use ad servers e.g. doubleclick, adtech to avoid this overhead.

That's fine. Those ad servers are free to continue offering their facilities to webmasters who would like to use them rather than setting things up themselves. The only difference is that now the centralised services won't be allowed to track everyone everywhere.

> Yes, publishers loose out once again.

You keep saying things like that, but I don't think you've ever explained why you think this is inevitable. I and several other posters in this discussion have now presented you with numerous alternative ideas that still allow sites to carry advertising that is fairly well-targeted without violating the new rules that are going to apply after May. Those methods funded numerous sites for several years before the current generation of spyware-based ad networks took off, and given that hosting is far more competitively priced now, I don't see why today's enthusiast sites shouldn't be able to cover their costs if yesterday's could.

All nice in theory... the real world is very different.

Sites could simply stop tracking users with long-term cookies. In this case, no warnings and popups need to be added. And everyone is happy...

Those companies can cry all they want but they get ZERO sympathy from me. I'm sick of having to install three extensions to counter their hostile behaviour towards my privacy.

I understand you feel companies have a hostile behavior towards your privacy. But you're part of a minority. If people really cared that much about cookies, the market would have responded accordingly and there wouldn't be any need for this kind of regulation at all. Why impose your obsession with privacy to the rest of us?

That's naive.

For one thing, most people are not technically knowledgeable and don't understand the extent to which they are being tracked.

For another, even those who would care about such issues can't spend their entire lives becoming experts in every ethical, legal, regulatory and financial field that might affect them. It simply isn't humanly possible, which is one reason we have laws crafted by specialists but applying to everyone.

Your argument only makes any sense if everyone knows about what's going on, understands the implications, and still doesn't care.

You apparently haven't heard of the invisible hand.[1]

The role of experts is to educate and influence, not to impose their own values. People should be allowed to chose what's best for them and put their trust where they want, not be forced into putting their trust on bureaucrats.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisible_hand

Basing your site revenue on advertising doesn't require trackig across sites/domains, supercookies written in flash, circumvention of user-defined browser privacy settings, etc (which is probably what blub is talking about). Honestly it doesn't even require cookies or retaining IP logs, though I don't think anyone here is arguing that those are malicious.

That's why your comment is a fallacy. Websites providing me content for free, and websites respecting the privacy of their users are not mutually exclusive concepts.

Hence, people might feel that a level of privacy should be provided by law, not by optional technical doodads.

Maybe people don't care about privacy as an abstract concept, I think people do care about possible outcomes - say my partner borrows my machine and starts seeing ads for the surprise holiday I was planning.

It's certainly desirable for website owners though...

Not really. You can achieve similar dubious goals with various other techonologies that are not so readily disabled, or that are usually implemented independent of the browser itself anyway (e.g., "Flash cookies").

That said: I also use tracking, but anonymize as soon as possible. And: there are enough laws that contradict regulations like these (such as the goverments force the ISPs to store the communication data from the users).

While I applaud the EU's efforts on this, it seems a bit of stepping over dollars to pick up pennies. The bigger battles for privacy still need to be fought.

They do, but you have to start somewhere, and at least this is a step in the right direction.

My personal view is that a privacy backlash is building. For the past decade or so, we have lived under an unwelcome combination of commercial interests who now have the technology to conduct mass surveillance and government interests whose politics is governed by fear, which in turn drives the surveillance state. I think it's becoming increasingly obvious that the cost/benefit in both cases doesn't justify the price we're paying, and it's starting to be the common guy or girl in the street who is asking questions and not just the privacy advocates and civil liberties campaigners.

As debates like this one start to hit mainstream media like the BBC, the political winds will shift, helped by the fact that many of the over-reactionary post-9/11 government administrations have now been shown the door so the political resistance is lower. As long as those of us who care can keep building the momentum, and the global picture remains more one of hope as dubious governments are falling than one of fear after a string of terrorist attacks, I think we'll start to build a more reasonable regulatory framework for protecting privacy when it's important to do so, without unduly disrupting useful innovations.

Customers will probably be scared at first, but once they understand a bit more about tracking (which are harmful, which are not), opt-in system will definitely add to customer's confidence, and thus benefit to business in the long term.

The only times lay surfers have heard about cookies is in the news when severe privacy invasions have occurred. To those that have never heard of it, it is new, so they are cautious. Some parts of the industry have misused that technology and now the whole industry is called to gain back the users trust.

The EU law's intention is to shift the responsibility from the companies to the user, i.e. they will be the ones to decide weather they want to use cookies or not. To make that decision they need to be informed about it's positive and negative sides.

Regarding opt-out models, how many people will know about that? So if I'm not aware of opting-out, is it my fault if some company goes berserk with my privacy rights?

I've not seen a decent discussion of this anywhere - the BBC site says "shopping baskets are exempt" but what about session cookies? What about font-size preferences or logins?

I've asked my MP (in the UK) to look into it...

Just some examples - so yes, I think this could definitely hurt EU startups, or at least smaller projects that rely on adsense.

e.g. i visit a website to buy a birthday present for my wife, but later everywhere she browses she suddenly sees adverts for the shop or product that i bought.

It only really falls down when there are a large number of totally identical machines in the same IP range, where the machines are locked down so plugins (etc..) cannot be installed. E.g. a large office or university lab.

http://www.davidnaylor.co.uk/eu-cookies-directive-interactiv...

I can use news.ycombinator.com because the first time I came to this site after installing Cookie Monster, I set it to accept session cookies from ycombinator.com, and to permanently remember that setting. I don't need to let ycombinator set long lived cookies, and I certainly don't need to let clickpass.com set a cookie on my computer when I visit the news.ycombinator.com login page.

What defines critical?