Or may be it is. At least for our population scale. How and why do you think rules and regulations get flouted? Plus I don't tend to restrict corruption to what government officials do. The business(of all sizes) who don't pay a penny in taxes, Common public who break every single law knowing that they can buy their way out, people/managers in private companies blatantly indulging in linguistic, regional and religious politics quelling whatever little is left of meritocracy are all equally guilty.
>>I mean, come on, we should stop taking the cover of corruption and colonialism for every problem that persists.
Colonialism probably damaged India in ways which can't even be repaired now. To tell that it doesn't have any impact on how things are running now is very naive.
Coming from a former colonial possession (Ireland), I agree that one shouldn't dismiss the injuries of colonialism, but I also think it's easy to fall into the trap of imagining that the pre-colonial era was one of benign harmony. It's easy to put the blame on a rapacious colonial power for a society's ills, but in many cases the only reason the external power was able to take over was due to dysfunction in the colonized country that limited its ability to respond to externally-imposed challenges.
> Coming from a former colonial possession (Ireland),
It's really not historically responsible to equate British rule of Ireland with colonialism as it existed in India.
> but in many cases the only reason the external power was able to take over was due to dysfunction in the colonized country that limited its ability to respond to externally-imposed challenges.
This is also not a particularly accurate depiction of the way that colonial powers built their empires. It's not a particularly accurate depiction of the way that the British took control over India either.
>>It's really not historically responsible to equate British rule of Ireland with colonialism as it existed in India.
I'd be interested to find out why you think this is the case? I'm not an expert by any means on the history of either colonial era but the little I do know shows some striking similarities in how the natives were treated by the British as far as rapacious barbarity in multiple cases.
As someone who both has a lot of Irish blood (read: many relatives who hate the British), and someone who considers himself an amateur historian I'd like to make a single point:
"starvation of anyhow underfed Bengalis is less serious than that of sturdy Greeks"
~ Churchill 1943
I think this quote captures the ethos of British colonial rule quite nicely.
While the British ruled many of their colonies by a identifiable play-book (i.e. a superiority complex that lead to brutal governance), cultural preference, as it always seems to, lead to favorable treatment of those demographics closest to anglo-saxon / protestant / etc, characteristics.
So I assert while famines were induced by the British in both Ireland and India, the Indians would have been seen as lowlier then the Irish, by a debatable amount.
The Indian population would thus have suffered harsher under colonial rulers.
This is coming from someone who has traced his ancestry back to a British lord, which in all likelihood means a family member (likely 3-4 generations) was raped as a direct result of British colonialism.
History is brutal and everybody likes to call foul. However treatment of different, far off, peoples by colonial powers will never seek to amaze in its vicious and sickening nature.
Well, the 'potato famine' in Ireland wasn't just due to potato blight. The English were ripping heaps of food out of the island. Given that the population of Ireland halved as a result, it seems much of a muchness to me when playing 'oppression olympics' about who had it worse.
Remember also that the English didn't conquer India just with their own armies. They used allies and puppets; England didn't have the sheer manpower it'd take to conquer India alone. Basically their tactic was find a small power and give them advanced weapons. The small power then enjoys becoming a big power... but is then dependent on England for the arms supply, and so becomes a puppet. The English were very good at politics, playing people off each other.
> To tell that it doesn't have any impact on how things are running now is very naive.
That's not what's happening here, people are saying that we should stop using colonialism as an excuse to shirk responsibility.
It's been more than half a century. Sure, colonialism damaged us, but 50 years is also a lot of time in which change could have been made to help undo that damage. That change is ... largely absent.
> It's been more than half a century. Sure, colonialism damaged us, but 50 years is also a lot of time in which change could have been made to help undo that damage. That change is ... largely absent.
First, I would disagree very strongly that this change is largely absent. India has made great strides in the last 50 years; it is undeniably a much stronger country in almost every way than it was 50+ years ago.
Secondly, it's been more than half a century since India's official independence from British rule, but it's certainly not been half a century since it was subject to immensely damaging influence from colonial powers. Just looking at Partition alone, the actions that the British took during Partition (and afterwards) are still being felt today, and there are many, many other ways in which India is still subject to external, colonial hegemony, just in a less overt and visible form.
There's lots of literature on postcolonial studies in India specifically, which explain it in far more detail than I could in this comment, but the fact is that colonialism has continued long after outright legal rule; it just exists in a different form.
To use 1947 as a benchmark is misleading, because that was only one stage of India gaining freedom from colonial rule. It's like saying that in the US the civil rights movement happened 50 years ago and slavery ended 150 years ago[0]. Yes, on paper, Black people are supposed to be treated equally under the law, but that undeniably is not the case in practice.
[0] Postcolonial pedants may point out that the relationship between Black people in the US is not strictly one of colonial subject-ruler in the exact same sense, but it's the closest analogy that non-pedants are likely to be familiar with.
We've made great strides, sure, but not in reversing the effect of colonialism.
Besides, I find it a bit disingenuous to put the full blame of a modern problem like pollution on colonialism, even when you account for continued influence way past 1947.
I completely agree that colonialism didn't stop at 1947. I'm just saying that it seems like a cop-out to just use it as an excuse for all our problems.
> Black people are supposed to be treated equally under the law, but that undeniably is not the case in practice.
Great example. Do you see any Americans blaming slavery or legal discrimination for the current situation, or are they blaming the modern times? Again, the past has a huge part to play here, but it's something that you should focus on trying to fix.
I don't see anyone go "meh, slavery" when the problems of the African American community are brought up. I do see people going "meh, colonialism" when India's problems are brought up, quite often. This is what I'm against. I'm not saying we should have fixed the problems by now, I'm saying we should have fixed them more than what our current state is, and we shouldn't just shovel all blame onto colonialism.
> I completely agree that colonialism didn't stop at 1947. I'm just saying that it seems like a cop-out to just use it as an excuse for all our problems.
I hardly, if ever, see people using it as a "cop out for all our problems", or people "shoveling all blame on colonialism". What I do see, though, is that this criticism is almost always made anytime someone makes mention of the actual continued effects of colonialism in the present day. It happens both on this thread and any other HN thread where the topic is brought up (though it's not limited to HN). In the aggregate, it becomes a way to dismiss these very real effects and ignore them altogether.
> Besides, I find it a bit disingenuous to put the full blame of a modern problem like pollution on colonialism, even when you account for continued influence way past 1947.
I don't (and neither would most postcolonial scholars), because the economic impact of 200+ years of outright exploitation takes more than 50 years to recover from. This aftermath of this economic destruction fundamentally changes the sorts of political and legal actions that are actually feasible (in practice). Even the US, the wealthiest country in the world[0], has outright refused to ratify the Kyoto protocol because of its effects on the economy[1]. In India, not only do you have to trade that off against the importance of economic growth in a developing economy, but also against the feasibility of actually implementing and enforcing policy changes[2].
> Do you see any Americans blaming slavery or legal discrimination for the current situation, or are they blaming the modern times?
Slavery and legal discrimination are responsible for the current state of the Black community in the US - that's the whole point. It's been 200 years and we still haven't been able to completely reverse its effects.
Incidentally, I do oftentimes see this same misguided criticism levied at the Black community, which essentially amounts to "you've had equal rights for 50 years now; it's up to you now to achieve success and end racial discrimination and inequality". While the situations are different (slavery vs. colonialism), this criticism is as misguided when applied to Black people in the US as it is when applied
[0] by raw GDP, and the wealthiest "large" country by GDP per capita
[1] ignore the political posturing in the rhetoric; this is very clearly the bottom-line reason
[2] Yes, inequality begets corruption and corruption begets inequality; it's a vicious cycle. This is why exploitative imperialism is so dangerous and exactly why fixing it is such a slow process.
> I hardly, if ever, see people using it as a "cop out for all our problems", or people "shoveling all blame on colonialism".
I have. Mostly amongst fellow students. Perhaps it's just different experiences then.
> it becomes a way to dismiss these very real effects and ignore them altogether.
Meh. I am okay with dismissing past issues when discussing present problems. Past issues cannot be fixed. I am less okay with dismissing present issues as a sole result of past problems.
Of course, I don't want to dismiss the effects of colonialism, but when it is used as an excuse (which I have seen often), I'd prefer to dismiss the past effects in an effort to avoid having present effects be dismissed.
> because the economic impact of 200+ years of outright exploitation takes more than 50 years to recover from.
You're talking in absolutes. I never said that we should have recovered by now. I'm asserting we ought to have made more progress than we have. This is a matter of opinion so I guess we should agree to disagree.
> Slavery and legal discrimination are responsible for the current state of the Black community in the US - that's the whole point.
Sure, but it's not used as an excuse either.
> Incidentally, I do oftentimes see this same misguided criticism levied at the Black community, which essentially amounts to "you've had equal rights for 50 years now; it's up to you now to achieve success and end racial discrimination and inequality".
Oh, this is not what I'm saying either. Perhaps I'm not being so clear; but I'm merely against the usage of colonialism as a cop-out. You're clearly not doing that here, so never mind :)
Do you think Indians themselves bear any responsibility for their public sanitation shortcomings? (Perhaps I shouldn't even assume you consider them shortcomings.)
The definition of colonialism, according to Google: "noun: colonialism --- the policy or practice of acquiring full or partial political control over another country, occupying it with settlers, and exploiting it economically."http://i.imgur.com/3wQbW11.png
A blessing you say? Until now I didn't even know anyone considered colonialism much different from an invasion. The definition that I just posted seems to fit "invasion" pretty well imho. And how do you even move a culture forward? It sounds like you're implying that some cultures are better than others. Please tell me you're not saying that. Please tell me there's some other definition of colonialism being used in this thread.
Type 1 is where is the colonizers set up new outposts in more-or-less unoccupied land. This happened in Hong Kong and Calcutta. This is usually benign for the host country.
Type 2 is where the colonizers steal the land from the natives and occupy it themselves. This happened in the United States and to some extent in Ireland. This type of colonialism is usually terrible for the natives.
Type 3 is where the colonizers install themselves as a ruling caste, but otherwise let the natives be. They extract taxes and provide governance in return. This was the case in India. It was also the case when the Normans invaded England, the Spanish invaded Mexico, or the British took over India.
Type 3 often works out better for the natives, because the existing regime had to be pretty backward and corrupt in order to fall to a small band of foreigners. The foreigners install themselves as competent stationary bandits and the country at least enjoys some stability and rule of law.
And how do you even move a culture forward? It sounds like you're implying that some cultures are better than others. Please tell me you're not saying that.
So you're saying Aztec culture wasn't worse than 19th century British culture? Cultures that had human sacrifice are equal to cultures that perfected the steam engine and flush toilets? Please tell me you are not that willfully ignorant.
It should be blindingly obvious that certain elements of culture are worse than others, unless you are willing to argue that religions with human sacrifice are just as good as religions without human sacrifice, or that funerals with Sati are just as good as funerals without Sati. If certain elements of culture are better or worse, than it would be a miracle if all cultures exactly balanced out so that the positive elements and negative elements were equal, thus making all cultures equal to each other.
Type 4 the type where you have no idea what you're talking about with regards to British rule in India
Type 5 is where you start enumerating during your rant to make it seem as you have a point beyond "never mind mass murders, famines.. colonialism sure did a lot for culture"
You may want to find the Satyajit Ray movie A Game of Chess and watch it. A Bengali director, no less (apt for rayiner's case), and his take on colonialism.
>> Type 3 often works out better for the natives, because the existing regime had to be pretty backward and corrupt in order to fall to a small band of foreigners. The foreigners install themselves as competent stationary bandits and the country at least enjoys some stability and rule of law.
Occupying a country is actually making them a favour!
> It sounds like you're implying that some cultures are better than others. Please tell me you're not saying that.
Assuming you believe the word culture actually has objectively true meaning, do you believe that while cultures are different, all differences everywhere somehow all balance out to a precisely equal level of "good"? And furthermore, are they all also equal with respect to any individual topic (sanitation, environment, honestly, etc)?
That's debatable, to say the least. One can make the argument that British colonialism was primarily (no surprises here) extractive, not developmental. And apparently to some extent it shows in the empirical pattern[1].
None of these arguments are 100% proof of course, but they should at least weigh in on one's priors, I think.
Virtually all governments are extractive. Governments are simply property owners that happen to own an entire country.
If you are lucky, you get a stationary bandit that extracts, but does not want to kill the golden goose. The stationary bandit wants to act as a gardener and grow production.
If you are unlucky, you get a roving bandit that will pillage as much as possible in the short term, not caring about long-term growth.
It strikes me that the corruption of the Indian government is much more akin to a roving bandit. Each official wants his share, no matter the impact on growth for the nation as a whole.
First, this presumes a linear progression and objective ranking of "quality" or "utility" of cultures, which any serious sociologist or anthropologist would reject.
Really, what you're saying is "colonialism turned Indian culture into something which more closely resembles present-day British (or perhaps Western European) culture". Phrased that way, it's easier to see that this argument is not particularly interesting. It's pretty obvious that colonialism will have that impact; that's basically the definition of hegemony.
Secondly, this ignores the immense impact that Indian culture (and other colonial cultures) have had on Britain (or their respective colonial powers). One of the well-known effects of colonialism (both in India and elsewhere) is the erasure of this influence. That is, cultural elements of the colonial subjects are appropriated by the colonial power as a "new" invention of that culture, rather than viewed (by the contemporary discourse) as an adoption of some aspect of the colonial culture. The reverse is not true; aspects of the colonial power's culture that are adopted by the colonial subjects are not viewed by either culture as being native to the colonial subjects[0].
Finally, this also overlooks the many ways that colonial rule appears to be a 'regression' even from the fallacious lens of a linear progression of culture. For example, the current criminialization of homosexuality in India is a due to a law imposed by the British during colonial rule. Before colonial rule, the concept of a nation-state didn't exist and enforcement of law was very different in practice, so we can't compare directly by looking for national legal codes. But it's very clear that homosexuality was not only not universally criminal in India, but was in fact an established and accepted cultural phenomenon in certain pockets of society. After the decriminalization of those practices, they disappeared entirely (in their then-current form; homosexuality itself obviously did not end).
[0] If anyone is interested in reading more about this, this principle is most famously explicated by Foucault. (No, the irony of referencing Foucault on cultural appropriation is not lost on me.)
It's said Chicken Tikka Masala is actually the most popular dish in the UK, well knocked off the very top but its still up there.
Mathematics, Jewellery, Ideas on Governance, A strong work ethic, Missiles & Weaponry (yup)... There are loads of other things. I think the tone of your question suggests one shouldn't bother to bring this out too much as it will not change your ideas.
Britain's current handout culture something that was better back then I assume?
Please have a look at the income of Indian families in the UK/US relative to other ethnic groups. Asian culture emphasizes a strong work ethic. It's not just Indians with this one.
When the question is what things British culture has absorbed from Indian culture, only things that have gone mainstream count, not things that are exclusive to immigrant communities.
>The Indians part seems irrelevant from what you're saying. It seems you think British people are lazy?
What? Not at all. I have no idea how lazy British people are. I was reacting to your statement that I should "Please have a look at the income of Indian families in the UK/US relative to other ethnic groups." That implies that there is a significant difference between mainstream culture and Indian immigrant culture.
I don't think I can argue much with nationalism. India has had nearly 70 years now without colonialism
I think you may find a large proportion of grandparents who will say the positive developments aren't anywhere to be found. Though there have been some nice things going on like having no one rule & no one to opress.
From my point of view, better the British than the Mughals.
If you're a keen scholar of history you may also find that if it were not for the British India would be many many small countries today.
I'm not sure if that counts but it would have had a different sort of destruction this way, perhaps it may have turned out better. Would you say secessionist states today are good for India?
When the British came the Mughals were already there. It is a bit different to remove that fish from butter and place it in margarine since it's not free to begin with.
I'm glad you said that. Indian culture and civilization still lives strong, it's just not only in India anymore.
You can thank the British for that (though I guess you hate them).
Guy, instead of arguing with me on HN where nothing will happen run in for politics or something where you can impact people's lives instead. Our family left long ago. Though we've left we're still quite attached.
68 years is long enough after colonial rule not to blame them on the current problems. Singapore did it and got independence later than India did.
Or may be it is. At least for our population scale. How and why do you think rules and regulations get flouted? Plus I don't tend to restrict corruption to what government officials do. The business(of all sizes) who don't pay a penny in taxes, Common public who break every single law knowing that they can buy their way out, people/managers in private companies blatantly indulging in linguistic, regional and religious politics quelling whatever little is left of meritocracy are all equally guilty.
>>I mean, come on, we should stop taking the cover of corruption and colonialism for every problem that persists.
Colonialism probably damaged India in ways which can't even be repaired now. To tell that it doesn't have any impact on how things are running now is very naive.