Everything Gardiner is saying is true :-( As an indian and also an immigrant here in the US, i can only be ashamed. it is hard to defend India when such simple things taken for granted everywhere else is a luxury. India is a mystery. How do things even work? (Try an evening commute in a suburban train in Mumbai) How can people (that too 1.2 B) even live in such conditions ? (Are the conditions because of the 1.2B?). But the country has a strange resilience. It is a country steeped in tradition on one side and trying hard to catch up with the rest of the world in modernization on the other. There are sparks of brilliance everywhere. Like lotus in a mucky pond. (http://www.thebetterindia.com/25026/gatimaan-express-10-inte...). My only wish is a little less corruption, and basic amenities for all within 5 years. The problem is huge, and unlike software humanity cannot be just rewritten from scratch :-(
Corruption is not the entire problem. The open defecation rates of India beat Sub-Saharan Africa handily an estimated 60-70% of world's open defecation is in India. I mean, come on, we should stop taking the cover of corruption and colonialism for every problem that persists.
I don't think anyone particularly revels in shitting outside. (I live in India, and don't see joy in people's faces when they do this).
If people can afford a toilet, and get access to sanitation and plumbing, they will use them.
In fact, the government has massive toilet-subsidy programs, and it's the government's responsibility to provide plumbing. Everybody here knows these programs and responsibilities are a joke, because of corruption (officials pocket the money for those toilet subsidies) and bureaucracy (getting the subsidies probably requires paperwork that the target citizens don't have, though that's just a guess on my part).
So, yes, an ineffective government (in large part due to corruption) may well be a huge part of the problem, if not the entire problem.
> A new household survey of nearly 23,000 north Indians offers more evidence, especially from Hindu households. Led by Diane Coffey, an economist at Princeton, it found that even among households with a working latrine, more than 40% reported that at least one family member preferred to defecate in the open.
People prefer to defecate in the open only because belive it is or not, open is 'cleaner' than inside. Most toilets require a subtantial amount of water to keep clean after every use and water is in short supply in north india. Without adequate flushing the toilet quickly becomes a stinkhole and outside offers a much better experience.
The princeton economist who wrote this intelligent study should have included talking to atleast one guy who stays in north india as part of her research.
There are many other countries that have similar poor plumbing infrastructure like India, but no where near the rates of open defecation. I had a friend who took a summer job in Mexico with an NGO that built pit-style toilets, and the villagers used them.
Heck, even within India itself, the vastly different open defecation rates between Hindus and Muslims point to the fact that the main factor is cultural, not just logistical.
Wow, Cunningham's law in action! Thanks for posting, that sounds like a fascinating study. May simply be a case of bad toilets, though; from the article: "Those with a government-built toilet were especially likely to choose a bush instead."
EDIT: All cultural change is just slow. Give a European toilet to someone who's been using squat latrines all 40 years of their life and they'll perch. Give it to a younger person, and they'll learn the new way.
Also, it looks like the cited statistic is a bit dramatic; only 21% of individuals who live in a household with a latrine practice open defecation. 80% efficacy is pretty good in social interventions. The household stat basically just says to me, "most Indian households include elderly members, who don't want to change their ways".
Or may be it is. At least for our population scale. How and why do you think rules and regulations get flouted? Plus I don't tend to restrict corruption to what government officials do. The business(of all sizes) who don't pay a penny in taxes, Common public who break every single law knowing that they can buy their way out, people/managers in private companies blatantly indulging in linguistic, regional and religious politics quelling whatever little is left of meritocracy are all equally guilty.
>>I mean, come on, we should stop taking the cover of corruption and colonialism for every problem that persists.
Colonialism probably damaged India in ways which can't even be repaired now. To tell that it doesn't have any impact on how things are running now is very naive.
Coming from a former colonial possession (Ireland), I agree that one shouldn't dismiss the injuries of colonialism, but I also think it's easy to fall into the trap of imagining that the pre-colonial era was one of benign harmony. It's easy to put the blame on a rapacious colonial power for a society's ills, but in many cases the only reason the external power was able to take over was due to dysfunction in the colonized country that limited its ability to respond to externally-imposed challenges.
> Coming from a former colonial possession (Ireland),
It's really not historically responsible to equate British rule of Ireland with colonialism as it existed in India.
> but in many cases the only reason the external power was able to take over was due to dysfunction in the colonized country that limited its ability to respond to externally-imposed challenges.
This is also not a particularly accurate depiction of the way that colonial powers built their empires. It's not a particularly accurate depiction of the way that the British took control over India either.
>>It's really not historically responsible to equate British rule of Ireland with colonialism as it existed in India.
I'd be interested to find out why you think this is the case? I'm not an expert by any means on the history of either colonial era but the little I do know shows some striking similarities in how the natives were treated by the British as far as rapacious barbarity in multiple cases.
As someone who both has a lot of Irish blood (read: many relatives who hate the British), and someone who considers himself an amateur historian I'd like to make a single point:
"starvation of anyhow underfed Bengalis is less serious than that of sturdy Greeks"
~ Churchill 1943
I think this quote captures the ethos of British colonial rule quite nicely.
While the British ruled many of their colonies by a identifiable play-book (i.e. a superiority complex that lead to brutal governance), cultural preference, as it always seems to, lead to favorable treatment of those demographics closest to anglo-saxon / protestant / etc, characteristics.
So I assert while famines were induced by the British in both Ireland and India, the Indians would have been seen as lowlier then the Irish, by a debatable amount.
The Indian population would thus have suffered harsher under colonial rulers.
This is coming from someone who has traced his ancestry back to a British lord, which in all likelihood means a family member (likely 3-4 generations) was raped as a direct result of British colonialism.
History is brutal and everybody likes to call foul. However treatment of different, far off, peoples by colonial powers will never seek to amaze in its vicious and sickening nature.
Well, the 'potato famine' in Ireland wasn't just due to potato blight. The English were ripping heaps of food out of the island. Given that the population of Ireland halved as a result, it seems much of a muchness to me when playing 'oppression olympics' about who had it worse.
Remember also that the English didn't conquer India just with their own armies. They used allies and puppets; England didn't have the sheer manpower it'd take to conquer India alone. Basically their tactic was find a small power and give them advanced weapons. The small power then enjoys becoming a big power... but is then dependent on England for the arms supply, and so becomes a puppet. The English were very good at politics, playing people off each other.
> To tell that it doesn't have any impact on how things are running now is very naive.
That's not what's happening here, people are saying that we should stop using colonialism as an excuse to shirk responsibility.
It's been more than half a century. Sure, colonialism damaged us, but 50 years is also a lot of time in which change could have been made to help undo that damage. That change is ... largely absent.
> It's been more than half a century. Sure, colonialism damaged us, but 50 years is also a lot of time in which change could have been made to help undo that damage. That change is ... largely absent.
First, I would disagree very strongly that this change is largely absent. India has made great strides in the last 50 years; it is undeniably a much stronger country in almost every way than it was 50+ years ago.
Secondly, it's been more than half a century since India's official independence from British rule, but it's certainly not been half a century since it was subject to immensely damaging influence from colonial powers. Just looking at Partition alone, the actions that the British took during Partition (and afterwards) are still being felt today, and there are many, many other ways in which India is still subject to external, colonial hegemony, just in a less overt and visible form.
There's lots of literature on postcolonial studies in India specifically, which explain it in far more detail than I could in this comment, but the fact is that colonialism has continued long after outright legal rule; it just exists in a different form.
To use 1947 as a benchmark is misleading, because that was only one stage of India gaining freedom from colonial rule. It's like saying that in the US the civil rights movement happened 50 years ago and slavery ended 150 years ago[0]. Yes, on paper, Black people are supposed to be treated equally under the law, but that undeniably is not the case in practice.
[0] Postcolonial pedants may point out that the relationship between Black people in the US is not strictly one of colonial subject-ruler in the exact same sense, but it's the closest analogy that non-pedants are likely to be familiar with.
We've made great strides, sure, but not in reversing the effect of colonialism.
Besides, I find it a bit disingenuous to put the full blame of a modern problem like pollution on colonialism, even when you account for continued influence way past 1947.
I completely agree that colonialism didn't stop at 1947. I'm just saying that it seems like a cop-out to just use it as an excuse for all our problems.
> Black people are supposed to be treated equally under the law, but that undeniably is not the case in practice.
Great example. Do you see any Americans blaming slavery or legal discrimination for the current situation, or are they blaming the modern times? Again, the past has a huge part to play here, but it's something that you should focus on trying to fix.
I don't see anyone go "meh, slavery" when the problems of the African American community are brought up. I do see people going "meh, colonialism" when India's problems are brought up, quite often. This is what I'm against. I'm not saying we should have fixed the problems by now, I'm saying we should have fixed them more than what our current state is, and we shouldn't just shovel all blame onto colonialism.
> I completely agree that colonialism didn't stop at 1947. I'm just saying that it seems like a cop-out to just use it as an excuse for all our problems.
I hardly, if ever, see people using it as a "cop out for all our problems", or people "shoveling all blame on colonialism". What I do see, though, is that this criticism is almost always made anytime someone makes mention of the actual continued effects of colonialism in the present day. It happens both on this thread and any other HN thread where the topic is brought up (though it's not limited to HN). In the aggregate, it becomes a way to dismiss these very real effects and ignore them altogether.
> Besides, I find it a bit disingenuous to put the full blame of a modern problem like pollution on colonialism, even when you account for continued influence way past 1947.
I don't (and neither would most postcolonial scholars), because the economic impact of 200+ years of outright exploitation takes more than 50 years to recover from. This aftermath of this economic destruction fundamentally changes the sorts of political and legal actions that are actually feasible (in practice). Even the US, the wealthiest country in the world[0], has outright refused to ratify the Kyoto protocol because of its effects on the economy[1]. In India, not only do you have to trade that off against the importance of economic growth in a developing economy, but also against the feasibility of actually implementing and enforcing policy changes[2].
> Do you see any Americans blaming slavery or legal discrimination for the current situation, or are they blaming the modern times?
Slavery and legal discrimination are responsible for the current state of the Black community in the US - that's the whole point. It's been 200 years and we still haven't been able to completely reverse its effects.
Incidentally, I do oftentimes see this same misguided criticism levied at the Black community, which essentially amounts to "you've had equal rights for 50 years now; it's up to you now to achieve success and end racial discrimination and inequality". While the situations are different (slavery vs. colonialism), this criticism is as misguided when applied to Black people in the US as it is when applied
[0] by raw GDP, and the wealthiest "large" country by GDP per capita
[1] ignore the political posturing in the rhetoric; this is very clearly the bottom-line reason
[2] Yes, inequality begets corruption and corruption begets inequality; it's a vicious cycle. This is why exploitative imperialism is so dangerous and exactly why fixing it is such a slow process.
> I hardly, if ever, see people using it as a "cop out for all our problems", or people "shoveling all blame on colonialism".
I have. Mostly amongst fellow students. Perhaps it's just different experiences then.
> it becomes a way to dismiss these very real effects and ignore them altogether.
Meh. I am okay with dismissing past issues when discussing present problems. Past issues cannot be fixed. I am less okay with dismissing present issues as a sole result of past problems.
Of course, I don't want to dismiss the effects of colonialism, but when it is used as an excuse (which I have seen often), I'd prefer to dismiss the past effects in an effort to avoid having present effects be dismissed.
> because the economic impact of 200+ years of outright exploitation takes more than 50 years to recover from.
You're talking in absolutes. I never said that we should have recovered by now. I'm asserting we ought to have made more progress than we have. This is a matter of opinion so I guess we should agree to disagree.
> Slavery and legal discrimination are responsible for the current state of the Black community in the US - that's the whole point.
Sure, but it's not used as an excuse either.
> Incidentally, I do oftentimes see this same misguided criticism levied at the Black community, which essentially amounts to "you've had equal rights for 50 years now; it's up to you now to achieve success and end racial discrimination and inequality".
Oh, this is not what I'm saying either. Perhaps I'm not being so clear; but I'm merely against the usage of colonialism as a cop-out. You're clearly not doing that here, so never mind :)
Do you think Indians themselves bear any responsibility for their public sanitation shortcomings? (Perhaps I shouldn't even assume you consider them shortcomings.)
The definition of colonialism, according to Google: "noun: colonialism --- the policy or practice of acquiring full or partial political control over another country, occupying it with settlers, and exploiting it economically."http://i.imgur.com/3wQbW11.png
A blessing you say? Until now I didn't even know anyone considered colonialism much different from an invasion. The definition that I just posted seems to fit "invasion" pretty well imho. And how do you even move a culture forward? It sounds like you're implying that some cultures are better than others. Please tell me you're not saying that. Please tell me there's some other definition of colonialism being used in this thread.
Type 1 is where is the colonizers set up new outposts in more-or-less unoccupied land. This happened in Hong Kong and Calcutta. This is usually benign for the host country.
Type 2 is where the colonizers steal the land from the natives and occupy it themselves. This happened in the United States and to some extent in Ireland. This type of colonialism is usually terrible for the natives.
Type 3 is where the colonizers install themselves as a ruling caste, but otherwise let the natives be. They extract taxes and provide governance in return. This was the case in India. It was also the case when the Normans invaded England, the Spanish invaded Mexico, or the British took over India.
Type 3 often works out better for the natives, because the existing regime had to be pretty backward and corrupt in order to fall to a small band of foreigners. The foreigners install themselves as competent stationary bandits and the country at least enjoys some stability and rule of law.
And how do you even move a culture forward? It sounds like you're implying that some cultures are better than others. Please tell me you're not saying that.
So you're saying Aztec culture wasn't worse than 19th century British culture? Cultures that had human sacrifice are equal to cultures that perfected the steam engine and flush toilets? Please tell me you are not that willfully ignorant.
It should be blindingly obvious that certain elements of culture are worse than others, unless you are willing to argue that religions with human sacrifice are just as good as religions without human sacrifice, or that funerals with Sati are just as good as funerals without Sati. If certain elements of culture are better or worse, than it would be a miracle if all cultures exactly balanced out so that the positive elements and negative elements were equal, thus making all cultures equal to each other.
Type 4 the type where you have no idea what you're talking about with regards to British rule in India
Type 5 is where you start enumerating during your rant to make it seem as you have a point beyond "never mind mass murders, famines.. colonialism sure did a lot for culture"
You may want to find the Satyajit Ray movie A Game of Chess and watch it. A Bengali director, no less (apt for rayiner's case), and his take on colonialism.
>> Type 3 often works out better for the natives, because the existing regime had to be pretty backward and corrupt in order to fall to a small band of foreigners. The foreigners install themselves as competent stationary bandits and the country at least enjoys some stability and rule of law.
Occupying a country is actually making them a favour!
> It sounds like you're implying that some cultures are better than others. Please tell me you're not saying that.
Assuming you believe the word culture actually has objectively true meaning, do you believe that while cultures are different, all differences everywhere somehow all balance out to a precisely equal level of "good"? And furthermore, are they all also equal with respect to any individual topic (sanitation, environment, honestly, etc)?
That's debatable, to say the least. One can make the argument that British colonialism was primarily (no surprises here) extractive, not developmental. And apparently to some extent it shows in the empirical pattern[1].
None of these arguments are 100% proof of course, but they should at least weigh in on one's priors, I think.
Virtually all governments are extractive. Governments are simply property owners that happen to own an entire country.
If you are lucky, you get a stationary bandit that extracts, but does not want to kill the golden goose. The stationary bandit wants to act as a gardener and grow production.
If you are unlucky, you get a roving bandit that will pillage as much as possible in the short term, not caring about long-term growth.
It strikes me that the corruption of the Indian government is much more akin to a roving bandit. Each official wants his share, no matter the impact on growth for the nation as a whole.
First, this presumes a linear progression and objective ranking of "quality" or "utility" of cultures, which any serious sociologist or anthropologist would reject.
Really, what you're saying is "colonialism turned Indian culture into something which more closely resembles present-day British (or perhaps Western European) culture". Phrased that way, it's easier to see that this argument is not particularly interesting. It's pretty obvious that colonialism will have that impact; that's basically the definition of hegemony.
Secondly, this ignores the immense impact that Indian culture (and other colonial cultures) have had on Britain (or their respective colonial powers). One of the well-known effects of colonialism (both in India and elsewhere) is the erasure of this influence. That is, cultural elements of the colonial subjects are appropriated by the colonial power as a "new" invention of that culture, rather than viewed (by the contemporary discourse) as an adoption of some aspect of the colonial culture. The reverse is not true; aspects of the colonial power's culture that are adopted by the colonial subjects are not viewed by either culture as being native to the colonial subjects[0].
Finally, this also overlooks the many ways that colonial rule appears to be a 'regression' even from the fallacious lens of a linear progression of culture. For example, the current criminialization of homosexuality in India is a due to a law imposed by the British during colonial rule. Before colonial rule, the concept of a nation-state didn't exist and enforcement of law was very different in practice, so we can't compare directly by looking for national legal codes. But it's very clear that homosexuality was not only not universally criminal in India, but was in fact an established and accepted cultural phenomenon in certain pockets of society. After the decriminalization of those practices, they disappeared entirely (in their then-current form; homosexuality itself obviously did not end).
[0] If anyone is interested in reading more about this, this principle is most famously explicated by Foucault. (No, the irony of referencing Foucault on cultural appropriation is not lost on me.)
It's said Chicken Tikka Masala is actually the most popular dish in the UK, well knocked off the very top but its still up there.
Mathematics, Jewellery, Ideas on Governance, A strong work ethic, Missiles & Weaponry (yup)... There are loads of other things. I think the tone of your question suggests one shouldn't bother to bring this out too much as it will not change your ideas.
Britain's current handout culture something that was better back then I assume?
Please have a look at the income of Indian families in the UK/US relative to other ethnic groups. Asian culture emphasizes a strong work ethic. It's not just Indians with this one.
When the question is what things British culture has absorbed from Indian culture, only things that have gone mainstream count, not things that are exclusive to immigrant communities.
>The Indians part seems irrelevant from what you're saying. It seems you think British people are lazy?
What? Not at all. I have no idea how lazy British people are. I was reacting to your statement that I should "Please have a look at the income of Indian families in the UK/US relative to other ethnic groups." That implies that there is a significant difference between mainstream culture and Indian immigrant culture.
I don't think I can argue much with nationalism. India has had nearly 70 years now without colonialism
I think you may find a large proportion of grandparents who will say the positive developments aren't anywhere to be found. Though there have been some nice things going on like having no one rule & no one to opress.
From my point of view, better the British than the Mughals.
If you're a keen scholar of history you may also find that if it were not for the British India would be many many small countries today.
I'm not sure if that counts but it would have had a different sort of destruction this way, perhaps it may have turned out better. Would you say secessionist states today are good for India?
When the British came the Mughals were already there. It is a bit different to remove that fish from butter and place it in margarine since it's not free to begin with.
I'm glad you said that. Indian culture and civilization still lives strong, it's just not only in India anymore.
You can thank the British for that (though I guess you hate them).
Guy, instead of arguing with me on HN where nothing will happen run in for politics or something where you can impact people's lives instead. Our family left long ago. Though we've left we're still quite attached.
68 years is long enough after colonial rule not to blame them on the current problems. Singapore did it and got independence later than India did.
FWIW, I don't hear many Indians blaming colonialism for the ills here (could be because I'm white and nobody wants to be insulting). It's more something that folks in Western countries talk about as far as I can tell.
EDIT: elsewhere on this thread, @sremani mentioned they are an Indian living in the US, so readers should not read my comment in favor of theirs.
Let's not forget post-colonialization. Less explicit, still as effective in resource grubbing and divide-and-conquer.
From the people that lovingly prepared the best conflict zones for after they leave, such as India-Pakistan, Israel-Palestine, Ethiopia-Eritrea, Iran-Iraq, Nothern-Southern Cyprus etc.
It's fairly common to see "do not urinate here" on walls in India. If the paint on the walls is nice, it seems to usually work. If the wall looks shitty, they're ignored. Near my apartment, there's a section of wall that's fairly well-hidden from the main street; people urinate there all day and it always reeks. (It's a corner of the outer wall of one of central Bangalore's nicest high-rise condo's). But the nicer stretches of that wall, and others in my area, are always devoid of urine.
Open defecation doesn't happen when people have access to (ideally free) toilets. Nobody likes doing that and I can't imagine shaming them will help anyone.
Thanks for pointing that out; it was wrong of me to make such a bold, absolute assertion, especially without data. It's certainly worth clarifying that I wouldn't expect 100% efficacy from anything involving cultural change; of course it still happens.
And also worth mentioning that the available latrines have to be welcome, clean, and comfortable; at least, better to use than the open-air alternative. Many public latrines are rather less pleasant than a patch of dirt behind a bush.
Humans are very good at not changing harmful lifestyles even if those lifestyles are particularly gross. Simple education has been a powerful tool for fighting hygiene problems in the third world.
>India is a mystery. How do things even work? (Try an evening commute in a suburban train in Mumbai) How can people (that too 1.2 B) even live in such conditions ?
Well, if you didn't have the money, connections or chance to be able to migrate to the US, you'd probably be living in such conditions too. It's not like you can't do much about it when you're poor.
And it's not like the US is all roses either. I've been to places in Mississippi, Alabama etc that look like the third world. Or South Dakota, were the life expectancy among Native Americans rivals the third world. And of course the same is more or less true for the well (and not so well) hidden homeless, urban poor, latinos, "white trash" etc communities.
I'm an American living in Bangalore (2mo) who spent 3mo traveling through India, after 6mo through other parts of Asia.
I confirm a lot of this, especially how impressive India and Indians are. In Bangalore, the sparks of brilliance are a crackling fire.
It's also worth noting that many of the problems noted in the article (air, water, food, flies) are far better in Bangalore. Frankly, there's a lot less cow manure, and the air isn't great but feels inestimably better than Delhi. "The Garden City" may have lost some of its greenery to the technology boom, but it's still in the top echelon in terms of tree cover of all cities I've visited (probably two dozen in the past year).
I saw that when it came out... it's only true of one metric, not overall air quality. You can barely see down the street in Delhi, whereas I see blue sky above my head right now.
Your point is worth keeping in mind, of course; I chose my words carefully when I said "the air... feels inestimably better than Delhi". I still get a headache whenever I spend longer than 15m in a rick.
Answer to your question lies your very post. The same Indians who probably cheat on taxes in every possible way in India(Fake rent receipts, Opting to buy things without a bill, show wrong records for accounting purposes), break every single traffic rule, litter streets, spit on the roads, break building regulations, play politics at office places, indulge in linguistic, regional and religious politics and do nearly everything wrong India; after arriving in U.S tend to exact opposite.
Why is that so? Life in the U.S doesn't come for free either. Account for all your taxes, expenses and cost of living and you will see this is simply trading one thing for the other.
While I wouldn't agree with enputen's characterization of "deliberate", it's entirely possible that they've been kept weak by a class of strongman lenders & landlords. Not an evil cabal, just a bunch of people who have the strength to play unfairly in the market and haven't been stopped. I don't have any special information here; it's just a hypothesis I find plausible.
Yes the air in Delhi is a Disaster.
The pollution & uncontrolled trash burning accompanied by a foggy climate with extreme heat/cold seasons all contribute. It is a very real and complex problem and the people & the Govt. of India & Delhi have not done nearly enough to tackle this.
None of this is a secret. People have been screaming about this for the past innumerable years, it is featured in the frickin Wiki about Delhi.
But you gotta wonder about the priorities of the author.
He brought a sick asthmatic child to a City known for its horrible air quality. What the f* was he thinking?
Then he writes a rambling article decrying the open defecation & air quality (mixing two tangentially related issues) after his son has an entirely predictable attack. A bad parent and a worse author, playing off the sympathy factor to decry known evils after putting his child in this situation himself.
Couldn't agree more. I got to the end of the article thinking "why did you stay after the first series of episodes?". I never realized how bad it was there and I am sad for all those impacted by it - especially the little ones.
So much for Modi's "Clean India" campaign. I used to think illiteracy is the root cause for all the evils in India. But now I guess corruption is. And the people are somehow responsible. Most Indians are overly religious. They are so deeply involved in visiting temples & godmen, praying etc., that they do not think about anything else. They vote on religious lines. I lived in Mumbai for a month. Every apartment in my 15 story apartment building had a picture of a god/godess, or other religious symbols on the front door. I guess the people are relying too much on "god" to set everything right. And the politicians are taking advantage of this fact.
Really. You expect a nation of 1.2B people to change overnight (it's been a year since Modi got elected).
The task is gargantuan; it won't happen in a year or even a decade.
Here's a simple example: the Cuyahoga river in Ohio caught fire because of pollution several times over a period of 100 years before someone decided to do something; and even then, it took decades to clean it up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuyahoga_River This is in America, a land with so much wealth and so many resources.
Here's the difference though: We passed the Clean Water Act, and stuff got done. Before that, as far as I know, nothing really making illegal to pollute the waters. Of course there is corruption and the like in the US, but nothing like India. It's not like the problem was people defecating in the Cuyahoga, it was purely an industrial problem.
#Culture - Culture makes societies and societies make cities. No really, all you have to do is walk down Newark St (aka Indian Street) in Jersey City or Little India in Singapore, yes Singapore, we have some how found a way to screw one of the world's cleanest city. The bright spot is, there is a movement called "Ugly Indian", in which enlightened Indians have acknowledged their "Culture" and working on the remedy.
If you live in India join this movement. If you live outside of India, please do not mess public spaces esp. the ones with high density of Indian businesses.
Don't generalize. Looks as if you have a especial hatred for fellow Indians which is coming out so evidently in your threads.
Now, let us go over your examples. Both of the areas you cited have traditionally been inhabited by not-so-well-to-do Indians which could be one of the reasons why they aren't well maintained. Little India in Singapore was originally inhabited by Indian immigrants - many of whom were very poor and uneducated and the area generally took its cue from there. Newark St in Jersey City, too, has largely been inhabited by poor early immigrant Indians (such as those who drive taxis in NYC) and Indians who come onsite (and thus are in heavy savings mode).
To give a counter to your example why don't you visit Sunnyvale and Fremont on the west coast which are heavily populated by the Indian community. Given how you have generalized, those areas should be dumps. The difference here is that the Indians who tend to live here are much more affluent and educated.
The difference here is between affluent and poor as well as educated and not. Such differences exist even within the white or black communities in the US.
You sure do rush to conclusion, do not mistake a harsh tone for hatred. So why is Hillcrest in Houston, TX not so appealing. You only want me to account Cities with average house price is about 500K+ ? Sure, while at it, why dont we not take Beverly Hills, CA as a sample to discuss crime in California. My point is, go to a place where there are a group of Indian business and you can see the contrast. If you are happy and satisfied, all the power to you.
As an Indian, I felt a real contrast when visiting Singapore. Everywhere we went around it was clean and beautiful but Little India. There was noise, trash, and what not. That walk was really insightful about us, begged questioning my values.
I visited Singapore before coming to India. I stayed in Little India because it was the only part of town with cheap hostels. It was also, I am told, the unofficial red light district. It may be more that Little India is one of the poorest parts of downtown Singapore, than that it's the "most Indian" part of Singapore.
Many Indians in Singapore occupy higher social classes, similar to Indians in America (from what I was told by an American-educated Singaporean friend). But Little India is where a different sort of Indian lives - the cheap, expendable, poorly treated laborer. In fact, there were riots there under a year back because such laborers were being treated so poorly, that caused many Singaporeans to reflect on how they were treating these people (from what I was told).
Did you visit the residential heartlands? It can be dirty there too, just in more of a Chinese way. A friend of mine works in the Singaporean police, and cited a number of recurring embarrassing incidents in these neighborhoods that are symptomatic of poverty elsewhere.
tl;dr: Little India isn't "Indian", it's just "poor".
My brother's friend, an electrician from India, worked in singapore. He was like $400 USD per month (20,000 Indian rupees) like 6 years ago. He used to live in a place whose roof is corrugated mental, and this was in Singapore. There are lots of laborers in Singapore, whose incomes don't allow them to live in nicer parts. So, glorified shanty town type homes exist there.
Yes, Singapore probably couldn't exist without its poor guest workers. One of my in-laws is a long-time truck driver there for construction companies, and he and his colleagues live in makeshift shanties on construction sites, making 450 USD per month while working 12 hours a day.
It is sickening to see people boasting of the beauty of civilized Singapore and shaming the poor laborers, the ones who make the city beautiful and are massively underpaid for their effort.
I am shocked that the author couldn't find a place for her kid to live state side. For example, live with grandparents, maybe a boarding school. Now your kid has permanent lung damage, thanks Mom and Dad.
Yeah, imagine Bram re-reading this article when he's a brittle 25-year-old whose health is failing while his peers are in their physical primes. Because they wanted to write for a newspaper column.
I feel bad for all of the children involved, but I feel extra bad for the ones who shouldn't have been in harms way in the first place, yet get thrown straight into it by will of their selfish and narcissistic parents.
Too right. I had bad asthma as a child and although I don't think I ever had an episode as catastrophic as decribed in this article there's definitely a long-term health deficit that's carried forward.
The way I understand it is that most of the damage was done before they understood the danger. While I'm sure it didn't help to stay for two more years, the effect of that is much more marginal, as long as they do get out.
Thought experiment: Bram moves to Washington DC, where the air is cleaner than in Delhi, but is instead shot in a mugging gone wrong and permanently confined to a wheelchair. It's well known that rate of gun crime in DC is far higher than in Delhi. Are his parents at fault?
"Several medical ethicists said it would be impossible to get approval for a clinical trial to send a group of children to Delhi to monitor their health."
So what about sending children from Delhi into another places and then comparing them with children that stay in Delhi?
Thousands of kids are already sent from one place to another in India. It's usually kids from cities who are sent off to boarding schools in more isolated locations, usually because the parents have jobs that make it inconvenient to raise kids at home, and often because some of these boarding schools offer excellent education. If they wanted to conduct such a study, they could study these kids.
Or performing tests with livestock (eg pigs), whose lung function could probably be measured non-invasively, and who could be ethically slaughtered and autopsied whereas people obviously couldn't. Animals aren't the same as humans but when the problem is particulate matter and broad-spectrum toxins as described in this article I rather doubt the biological differences would invalidate the observations the way it might if you were studying digestion.
We nearly left two years ago, after Bram’s first hospitalization. Even after his breathing stabilized, tests showed that he had lost half his lung function. On our doctor’s advice, we placed him on routine steroid therapy and decided that as long as his breathing did not worsen again, we could stay in Delhi.
So we fixed the symptoms, surely it won't happen again? Really questioning the logic here.
Agreed. I'd get the hell outta dodge at the first sign of trouble for my child. Steroid therapy -vs- clean air?!?! No comparison: clean air wins every time!
I found it troubling as well - but do you personally live in the absolutely best place in the entire world to live? The least pollution, the least crime, the highest life expectancy?
As someone who live in Melbourne (Australia) and is considering moving my family to a rural location for cleaner air for 10 years or so after the first child is born, I am unable to comprehend someone taking their child to live in one of the most polluted cities. Even if he (and his wife) did not think it through beforehand, the hospitalisation should have been a huge wakeup call.
Delhi's air is a disaster. It's immediately apparent just before landing. After leaving the terminal one can literally see and smell the dirty smog, especially in winters.
Air pollution's quite bad in Inland Empire, California as well (Riverside, San Bernardino, etc). One can see the air that they breathe.
What are the causes of air pollution in Delhi? It makes sense that trash burning would contribute, but to see pollution numbers worse than Beijing, one assumes there has to be some industrial process behind it. 75% of India's power comes from coal; is that the issue?
This, written by an expat, who lived in an AC home, travelled in an AC car, and probably worked had leisure activities mostly in an AC environment.
So, how would a common Indian citizen feel in Delhi? I don't know. But based on my few days of travel to Delhi, I feel, this article is quite alarmist.
Most Indian cities are not ideal places for anyone with lung problems, and it'd certainly exacerbate one's symptoms trying to live in a city.
I wish Gardiner Harris could give a common man perspective instead of a highly biased one. But, him being a persistent India hater (more specifically, writing anything that helps show the current government in a bad light), I'm not surprised to read this.
>But based on my few days of travel to Delhi, I feel, this article is quite alarmist.
It seems strange to discount his experience living there based on your experience of a few days there. My experience of Delhi is that the visibility often doesn't exceed 200ft, and the smell of the smog hits you as soon as the airport doors open. I don't spend more than a few days a year there though, so I'm neither inclined to write articles like this, nor to criticize them.
>But, him being a persistent India hater
He likes India enough to travel to the other side of the world to live there, and subject his children to significant health risks. This tendency to brand anyone pointing out obvious issues as an "india hater" or a "hinduphobe" is one the scariest things about India's political climate today, and I hope it fizzles out before it turns really nasty.
I travel to India a couple of times a year, for 2-3 weeks at a time. As the plane is landing in DEL, you can smell the difference. As soon as you step on the jet bridge, you get acrid smell of burnt ... something. Rubber? Plastic? It's hard to tell (and you're overwhelmed by the smell of phenyl used for cleaning).
Every time I've taken a 2-wheeler or a 3-wheeler in the busy streets, I come home with a cough; and near the end of the trip, I have a consistent burning sensation in the throat.
Did India ever try to implement a one child policy like in China? It may seem drastic but a lot of the conditions they are experiencing are a result of overpopulation coupled with poor infrastructure. The poor infrastructure is a direct result of the endemic corruption in the government resulting in reduced taxes and failure to forge ahead with much needed public works projects.
There is a direct relationship between quality of life and birth rate. The poorer a population, the higher the birth rate. In Europe the birth rate has been on a decline and the population is aging.
The one child policy in China has had negative social effects. For example many families sought to have boys, leading to a very skewed sex ratio and a high infanticide rate.
We can also say that such policies are a human rights violation, are treating a symptom instead of the disease and are doing more harm than good.
> A strong backlash against any initiative associated with family planning followed the highly controversial program, which continues into the 21st century.
I spent some time in Cairo, a city so clogged with dirty, filthy air that first time visitors often come down with respiratory infections.
The locals I interacted with knew about the terrible air quality, but also mentioned that the city was popular with Indians, many of whom came to enjoy the "cleaner" air.
I've never been to India, but this comparison has stuck with me.
people will say India is largest democracy on this planet. all the things you see are temporary and will resolve itself because this political system has been working well in many places. I will then ask, well, when this is gonna happen?
I find it hard to believe that the author could not escape pollution.
The standard thing to do is to get an apartment in the tallest building you can find, and then use an air filtration system. Plus, every Indian city has a few neighborhoods where the rich live. These are normally clean.
Before we read too much into the NYT Journalist's article, here is another view:
For an article that talks in excruciating detail of the cataclysmic effect Delhi’s air has had on the health of the author’s child—and the ethical dilemma faced by expats, whether they should risk raising their loved ones in this godforsaken metropolis—for all those morbid adjectives and gut-wrenching, bile-inducing descriptions, Harris quotes but a single scientific study.
“Delhi, we discovered,” he writes, “is quietly suffering from a dire paediatric respiratory crisis, with a recent study showing that nearly half of the city’s 4.4 million schoolchildren have irreversible lung damage from the poisonous air.”
Single it may be, a citation is still a citation. Except that here it is in the form of an article written in The Indian Express, and worse, the study it quotes is born out of data that was collected between 2002 and 2005. Yes, more than 10 years ago.
Discounting the fact that Harris insists on calling it “a recent study”; discounting also the fact that The Indian Express blunders with their subheading—“Just under half of the 44 lakh schoolchildren studied…” it says, while in reality only 11,628 schoolchildren were studied and the results of the survey extrapolated—the cited report is as comprehensive as one can get.
The study points to the harmful effect Delhi’s air had on the health of 11,628 schoolchildren between 2002-2005: “In lung tests conducted on 5,718 students, 43.5% suffered from “poor or restrictive lungs”; about 15% of the children surveyed complained of frequent eye irritation, 27.4% of frequent headache, 11.2% of nausea, 7.2% of palpitation and 12.9% of fatigue.”
But it is more nuanced than that. The study surveyed children from 36 schools, six of which were situated on Delhi’s main roads that are notoriously choked with traffic all through the day, with one, Lakshmi Public School—that presented one-tenth of the children surveyed—located near one of Delhi’s biggest bottlenecks: Vikas Marg intersection. It is also worth noting that in 2002, neither Delhi’s fleet of 6,000 rickety diesel buses had been phased out despite Supreme Court orders, nor had most of the 25,000 odd auto rickshaws converted to compressed natural gas, or CNG.
In the age group of six to eight—the same as Harris’ son—the prevalence of current asthma in Delhi’s children was found to be marginally higher: 2.5% compared to 2% in the control group. Prevalence of current asthma shot up in children belonging to large-sized families and families with poor socioeconomic background (5.1% for a family size greater than six).
The study found a strong positive association between PM10 and eye irritation, but not with asthma or headache. (PM10, or Particulate Matter of size 10 microns, and PM2.5, or Particulate Matter with size equal to or less than 2.5 microns, are the two major determinants of air pollution. It is now an accepted scientific fact that prevalence of PM2.5—measured in µg/m3—is more dangerous than PM10 as it settles deep inside the lungs).
About 27% of Delhi’s children studied were exposed to cigarette smoke at home (control 28%) and, crucially, the study found that a child’s BMI, or body mass index, has a profound influence on his lung function.
We nearly left two years ago, after Bram’s first hospitalization. Even after his breathing stabilized, tests showed that he had lost half his lung function. On our doctor’s advice, we placed him on routine steroid therapy and decided that as long as his breathing did not worsen again, we could stay in Delhi.
I hope Bram grows up to be understanding. Reading this article, I hope Bram grows up.
Anand Ranganathan wrote a good response to this article [1]. The TL;DR of it all was that the NTY article is too alarmist, and cites scant and old data, and that India still needs to needs to conduct more research on this issue.
Edit: for bonus points, read the comments below, and you'll see why the problem is unlikely to be fixed.
How is that a good response? His argument basically is that an article in a general-news newspaper is not meeting the same standards as a peer reviewed paper?
Well, duh.
Or him dismissing the study Harris does mention because it was conducted 10 years ago? Never mind that since Delhi's pollution has only gotten a lot worse since then, the research probably UNDERSTATES the negative effects of Delhi's pollution.
And anyways, at the end he basically eviscerates his own response, by rebranding his article as not dismissing Harris's concern, but rather as a complaint against the lack of data India is collecting. I guess even he realized he really wasn't negating anything Harris was saying, and if anything was providing evidence that would suggest that Harris may even be understating the issue.
> His argument basically is that an article in a general-news newspaper is not meeting the same standards as a peer reviewed paper?
Are you assuming that not meeting the standards of peer reviewed journals means not meeting good journalistic standards either? In any case, Anand Ranganathan has written for peer reviewed journals[1], and he has written for this general-news outlet [2]. He's usually very good at knowing where to draw the line with citations and details.
> And anyways, at the end he basically eviscerates his own response
He does no such thing. His main point is up there, under the title, "For an article that talks in excruciating detail of the cataclysmic effect of Delhi’s air, Harris Gardiner quotes but a single scientific study."
