I can't believe so many people see reclining as rude, it's the design of the seats. If the person in front of you reclines, recline your own seat.
This product is like covering up your neighbors reading light because it bothers you. It's not yours to turn on/off. Lack of space is part of air travel, if you can't fit your laptop on a tray that is reclined then pay for first class or get a smaller laptop.
Thank you! You pay for the seat, the space under the seat ahead of you, and the ability to recline. All of that space is rightfully yours. Everyone else on the flight pays for the same and is rightfully theirs. People who don't understand that need to re-evaluate why they are flying. Blocking someone from reclining, in my book at least is a sociopathic move.
There is worse behavior on planes of course. I was once on a flight where I put my backpack under the seat ahead of me and the woman sitting in that seat started kicking it. I firmly pointed out to her that there was a laptop and camera in the bag and that she needed to stop. She informed me that the space under her seat was hers and that I needed to move my bag. The dispute finally ended when she hit the call button and the attending flight attendant eventually had to have her removed from the plane.
By reclining your seat all the way back you're forcing the person behind you to recline his seat all the way back, which in turn forces the person behind the person behind you to recline his seat an so on, it's just not a very mindful thing to do because you're actively forcing your preferences on everyone else. I feel like reclining more than halfway through is only fair if there's nobody sitting behind you or if that person had already reclined his seat.
I don't think these are strict rules or anything, you are certainly entitled to do whatever you wish, it's really just a question of politeness.
Airlines enforced their preferences on everybody else when they decided - at the cost of some very expensive additional weight - that seats can and should be able to recline. If they didn't intend for customers to recline the seats it's perfectly possible to install or modify seats to make reclining impossible (some do) or to instruct people not to recline seats at certain times it might be inappropriate (all do). They also designed seats so it wasn't wholly impossible to sit behind a reclined seat (or indeed climb out of the seat) without reclining. So the people forcing their preferences are the ones insisting they have the right to restrict the inclination of the seat in front.
Sure, out of politeness I might refrain from using the intended functionality of the seat if you ask nicely (same goes for switching off the light or redirecting the airflow nozzle, and I might choose to delay my toilet break to avoid disturbing your sleep). My sense of politeness tends to go out the window when people start suggesting its selfish or impolite for me not to coordinate my cabin controls to their liking.
Yes I mostly agree with that, even though I don't normally recline my seat if someone behind me used a Knee Defender I'd definitely complain about it, just out of spite as it's also not a very polite thing to do.
Now if you don't recline, you force the person in front of you not to recline, and the person in front on him, and so on. It's just not a very mindful thing to do because you're actively forcing your preferences on everyone else. I feel like not reclining is only fair is there's nobody sitting in front of you or if that person has already not reclined their seat.
Actively is the keyword here. Not reclining is the passive, default thing to do, because during takeoff you can't recline your seat anyway. If you had to recline your seat all the way back during takeoff, your argument would be valid.
Most of the time I don't recline my seat at all because I simply forget that it's a thing I can do, especially if the person in front of me doesn't recline his seat enough that I notice it.
> I can't believe so many people see reclining as rude, it's the design of the seats. If the person in front of you reclines, recline your own seat.
That the seat is designed to work in different positions has little to do with whether or not it is rude to use some of those positions. Rudeness is in general situational. An action that is fine under some circumstances can be rude in other circumstances.
For example, my home theater is designed to make very loud sounds. Are you going to argue that this means it can never by rude of me to listen at top volume?
My digestive system is designed to expel noxious gases. Do you think that justifies farting in crowded elevators?
I could rephrase your post as:
"I can't believe so many people see honking in your car as rude, it's the design of the car. If the person in front of you honks, just join in for a nice hullabaloo."
It's usually not that you can opt out of this. Would be cool though: left aisle: no reclining seats, right aisle: reclining seats. :)
It doesn't both me when people recline their seats, but I do wish there was a more reasonable limit on how fast people can recline. The number of times I see people slamming their seats back and almost breaking someone's laptop is ridiculous.
Reclining doesn't protect your knees, though it may provide additional space for your upper body. The fact that the design of the seat permits you to use it as a device to commit tortious battery on the person behind you doesn't make it okay to use it for that purpose.
I really love reclining. As a tall guy, it makes long flights significantly better. Albeit I usually fly in economy on budget airlines so can't usually recline far, but I'm still appreciative of what I get. It saddens me that people want to disrupt others and disable functionality that the seat/plane was engineered to have. Although I always recline very slowly to be least shocking to the person behind me and obviously not during meal time etc.
As a tall guy, I find that my knees are at most a couple of inches from the seat in front. When the person in front of me reclines and their chair hits my knees, it's clear that I'll be uncomfortable for the entire remainder of the flight. I don't recline; I judge people who do it in front of me as selfish, and I don't want to be hypocritical.
"tall guy" is a qualitative statement, not quantitative.
I'm 6'4". My knees always touch the seat in front of me - reclining helps me angle my legs a bit more so I have a few more positions for my legs, particularly on 8+ hour flights, which I often take. It also helps my back hurt less, and often means a significant difference (>1 hour more) in the amount of sleep I get on a flight.
I'm not sure why using the seat as it's meant (particularly in response to someone else using the seat in the same way in front of you) is perceived as selfish.
Granted, I often purchase Economy Comfort/Plus/Premier seats on redeye flights of more than 6 hours, but sometimes it's not an option.
Come on, you have to buy longer jeans, and extra-long-sleeved shirts, and probably bigger shoes. They all cost more. And given society's worshipping of tall people, it can't really suck. Not buying it; no sympathy from me.
Don't suffer in silence, ask the person behind you. At least for me it makes no difference if the person in front reclines or not. Biggest effect is that I get to have the entertainment system a bit nearer to me. On the other hand, I suspect most people would be too nice to give a truthful answer even if they dislike it..
You shouldn't. It's rather entitled. When I pay for a seat on a plane, I'm paying for everything that goes along with it. I won't slam my seat back, but it's going back, and I'm not going to ask your permission because I'm never going to give you the opportunity to say "no."
I've never been in a situation where the person head of me who has reclined their seat makes the entertainment system and tray table no longer available to me. The fact is, that person ahead of me paid for the space they've used to recline and it's theirs, not mine, period. If I try to block them from reclining, then I'm exercising my ego over theirs by denying them something which is rightfully theirs, which they paid for. That is wrong and tends to fall into a behavior covered in the DSM.
If the entertainment system is mounted in the head of the seat in front then reclining that chair brings it well below my eyeline - I cannot slump low enough in my seat so that I can see it.
If you're convinced that this WILL cause discomfort, why are you asking people - which very well might be too polite/afraid/distracted to decline - if you can do that?
Aren't you, based on your very own impression and description of reclining, asking people if you can slap them every 10min for the rest of the flight?
(I dislike flying in general, and I never had to take a flight longer than 4.5 hours. I couldn't care less about the argument, but would probably lean towards the 'So my chair can be set back. I guess I use it as intended' position)
> Aren't you, based on your very own impression and description of reclining, asking people if you can slap them every 10min for the rest of the flight?
A slap with consent may be weird, but a slap without consent is battery. So, if one accepts your slap analogy, there's a good reason to ask consent.
For me there is no analogy or issue. Ignoring the 'I think flights are crap in general' base line: My seat. I recline it or not, but that's my decision.
I would have a harder time to recline it, if I'd be convinced that this is in some way 'hard' on the one behind me. But IF I were convinced that this was 'hard' for the person behind me, I'd not ask them for consent.
A) They say "Please don't recline".
Hah! I'm right! And I'm a great person for asking, and now not reclining my seat. Go me.
B) They say "Enjoy"
B1) Hmm. I am convinced that this reclining thing is bad for people in the seats behind the person in question. They agreed, but unless I'm wrong I'm now making their life miserable. But yeah - they're fine with it?
B2) Interesting. Maybe reclining isn't that bad? I should reflect and think about whether my 'reclining is bad and torture' idea is sensible.
Or, maybe all possible people sitting behind you aren't identical, and reclining is really bad for some of them and not others, and asking gives them the opportunity to let you know whether it's bad for the one actually affected in the particular instance.
Hmm.. Let me explain my (probably broken) mental model.
But I'm not sure it really is about the yes/no answer - it is more a display of courtesy to someone whom you are about to cause discomfort
I parse that as
- You think reclining causes discomfort (Not sure I agree, but let's take this as given for now)
- But you ask the one behind you
For me it followed that if the person behind you says 'Sure, go ahead' you'd knowingly cause them discomfort (albeit after asking them / with their consent)?
For the sake of sanity: Can you pick that apart for me? Text is a crappy medium, this isn't my native language and nuances are hard. Where did I fail?
From what you say there I think you understand me.
Throughout this interaction I am assuming a few things:
1. Reclining causes discomfort to the person behind
2. But the amount of discomfort varies quite a bit from person to person (e.g. I can imagine that a small child is less discomforted than others)
3. I can't really tell for sure how much discomfort reclining will cause so I ask if it is OK to recline. Then it is up to the person behind to decide how comfortable they are with this.
Are you suggesting that I shouldn't recline at all because it causes discomfort to those behind even if the amount of discomfort might be negligible?
I'm only medium-tall (6' 1") and it doesn't bother me that I have to be a little uncomfortable and change positions every once in a while. I'm actually more uncomfortable when I don't recline because then I have fewer positions to change to.
I'm not a tall person, but I also agree with you. It is very uncomfortable to go through a long flight on an upright seat.
I can not believe people think they have the prerogative to stop other people from reclining. It is intended functionality and we have certainly paid for that.
> I can not believe people think they have the prerogative to stop other people from reclining. It is intended functionality and we have certainly paid for that.
Well I guess that is the question: What did we pay for?
Did we pay for comfort? Reclining does seem to offer that.
Did we pay for discomfort? Not reclining may be a cause of mild discomfort. Who would pay for that?
Did we pay for actual physical pain and significant discomfort? Hell no, but if you are tall and the person in front does recline then this is a reality.
I can't believe people think that have the prerogative to cause other people actual pain. I'm really not convinced you or I paid for that.
In my case, on the last flight I was on, when sitting bolt upgright and with my butt as far back in my seat as possible, there was maybe an inch between my knees and the seat in front of me. The tray table didn't come all the way down either.
Its not a case of thinking I have some sort of privilege that would be infringed by the person in front of me reclining their seat - it simply didn't work. the seat in front of me reclined ~ 1/3rd of its normal distance before hitting my knees, and there was no way to get my knees out of the way. In that case I apologise to the elderly gentleman in the seat in-front, and after he glanced at my knees he (very considerately) concurred that getting the full recline out of his seat was 'unlikely to work'.
Sometimes I try to pay extra and reserve an exit row seat, sometimes they aren't available. The last time I got one I ended up wedged between a rugby player and an obese person for ~12 hours, It's not always an improvement, nor is it necessarily cheap.
And like the poster somewhere up-thread, I don't like being a hypocrite, I try to recline my own seat as little as possible.
The problem is you, like an overweight person, think that you can get by with an economy ticket. I feel bad for your knees, but I'm reclining because I paid for the ability to recline even if it's only a few inches. If you are uncomfortable in your seat, fly a different airline or upgrade.
I honestly wonder if those measurements get adjusted over time or if the baseline of "average human height" (which I hope was factored into the calculation) was taken in the 50s? 60s? (when was commercial flight "mainstreamed"?) - as various studies show that it's been going up.
Will our ancestors (again +10cm[0]) in 100 years still mutter about reclining seats? :)
I fly a lot within Europe (granted, with a limited selection of airlines) since 2006 and never noticed a decline of space during this time.
Except for the super discount carriers (I rarely fly Easy Jet and never flew Ryanair, so I can't really comment on that) the seat pitch seems around 31" in economy for most flights I ever took.
This is about what most airlines offer on long haul flights (in cattle class) and is certainly tolerable for short hops of less than two hours.
So far, thankfully I've never had a person in front of me, who would have decided to recline their seat. Although I'm mainly travelling with Ryanair, so I'm not even sure if that is possible on their planes. But for me, 1.94m tall, even a thought that someone would try to take away some of my space on plane is simply infuriating.
I have experienced this in buses and trains, on trains especially. There this can be tolerable, because there is a much more space (at least where I've experienced reclining), and people mostly have been very understanding and kind of afraid that someone from the back will start to shout on them.
In any case, it as well quite a sad thing, that whether there is enough space to be able to recline or isn't, we have a situation were we are unable to sort this out between ourselves.
Once I almost got my laptop crushed because the person sitting in front of me reclined their seat and it caught the laptop's screen (it was standing on the tray). If only I had this "knee defender" it wouldn't have been a problem. I mean, how is that guy supposed to know they shouldn't recline at this very moment? If they can't recline because of knee defender, they will ask me and I'll be able to save my laptop from danger.
Maybe you should just accept that using a laptop in economy is crazy to begin with. Read a book, use a tablet, enjoy the crappy in-flight, talk to your neighbour, or have snooze instead.
Which always keep me thinking, why there isn't a temporary-attachment/hook-technology which would place tablet in my eye level?
You could keep typing on wireless keyboard that is on the tray or just watch movie.
Also, as a kind passenger, before reclining I always look behind to check whether person behind me is not eating of doing something on their tray. If they do, I am trying to recline slower so at least they can move their stuff.
> Read a book, use a tablet, enjoy the crappy in-flight
The reclined seat in front reduces the space between the eyes and book so it becomes a little blurry, Ok for an hour, but causes a headache after 10. Ditto the tablet and movie screen. If you recline to compensate, it hurts the back because non-reclined with the pillow inserted between back and seat is really the only comfortable way to spend an entire flight.
I may be showing my age here, but I remember when flying wasn't something to be dreaded. The few inches we've lost have really made a difference. Twenty years ago, you could read or use a laptop in coach and first-class was a frill for rich people.
In 2015, aside from the people with upgrades, most people in first-class don't want to be there (i.e. they're not there because they're wealthy, but because their disabilities or age make coach literally impossible) and most actual rich people fly private because even first class isn't great.
I find that the only thing that I can do on planes, these days, is take a pill, make sure I get 2 armrests (I'm 6' and 195 pounds) and nod off-- and I don't sleep very well. If we had 300 mph trains at competitive prices like Europe and Japan have, I'd rather take those.
This degradation in comforts of air travel is very regrettable. Especially when it comes to seat pitch, coach class is clearly denied what is necessary and, worse still, this is intentional. There's a lovely quote by a French engineer named Jules Dupuit going back to 1849, which explains the conundrum. I think he was talking about railroad cars but the argument applies to air travel just the same. Quote:
"It is not because of the few thousand francs which would have to be spent to put a roof over the third-class carriage or to upholster the third-class seats that some company or other has open carriages with wooden benches ... What the company is trying to do is prevent the passengers who can pay the second-class fare from traveling third class; it hits the poor, not because it wants to hurt them, but to frighten the rich ... And it is again for the same reason that the companies, having proved almost cruel to the third-class passengers and mean to the second-class ones, become lavish in dealing with first-class customers. Having refused the poor what is necessary, they give the rich what is superfluous."
20 years ago very few people had laptops. In fact, say 20-25 years ago, flying at all was a luxury (at least for most of us in Europe). I don't dispute that legroom has become stingy as air traffic has increased, but I think it's unfortunate to use ye olden days to set expectations for today. 'Economy' implies getting people from A to B as economically as possible.
An inch of extra legroom means fewer seats on the plane, and even if I had to pay 5% ($40-50) more, then it's too much. Some of the 'premium economy' options aren't that expensive anyhow. I flew Virgin Atlantic in April and only paid something like $60 for a bit of extra room (and as a bonus, because few people do, had an empty seat next to me).
Another thing with regard to your age, and I mean no disrespect, is that I believe ones tolerance for certain kinds of discomfort tend to decrease with age.
Another thing with regard to your age, and I mean no disrespect, is that I believe ones tolerance for certain kinds of discomfort tend to decrease with age.
I'm not that old (31). I just happen to remember a time when air travel wasn't horrible.
Older people are actually far more tolerant of discomfort. They just suffer more bodily pain when conditions aren't right.
5% being $40-50 means an airfare of $800 to $1000. If domestic flights cost that much, then we should consider airlines forgone for domestic travel and elect officials who'll make competent train service (not necessarily government run, but with infrastructural improvements and revisions of right-of-way laws that enable passenger rail competition) a #1 priority. As for international flights, the reason you see four-digit fares is the very high taxes on those, and the monopolies that airports have, and various other weird factors involving pilot unions and seniority tiers. NYC-HKG really should only cost about $850.
Unfortunately it's the airlines that create the potential for this flare-up to begin with. Every time I get on a flight I swear the seat in front of me is 1" closer to my knees. I try to fly Southwest as often as I can domestically, because they have the most leg room that I've found (and I can only afford economy).
It's amazing how thoughtless and selfish some people are. I young woman in front of me had a child who was pretty disruptive, but for some time I was able to distract him and he eventually calmed down. As soon as he did the woman punched the recline button and literally slammed the seat down. If I had been using anything other than a netbook it would have been toast. And as a reasonably tall guy my knees certainly didn't appreciate it.
So, yes, reclining your seat is included in what you pay, you can even pay more to recline more your seat, and low-cost companies are known for having non-reclining seats (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-cost_carrier).
Some European charter airlines (i.e. airlines that move people for package holidays) now have fixed "slimline" seats that can't recline and are incredibly uncomfortable.
We flew back from Turkey last year on a brand new Airbus with slimline seats and it was purgatory. I really hope this trend doesn't catch on with regular airlines.
I flew hundreds of times in EU, between different countries and using different airlines,and I have never ever been on a plane with reclining seats. It's mostly Airbuses A319/320 and Boeings 737-300 that I flew in, and none of them had adjustable seats.
I don't generally recline seats as although I'm 6'1" I've got relatively short legs... but those seats were an abomination and seemed to be fixed with the backs at an very steep angle.
Unfortunately the selected answer is meaningless. Quoting mine, which is below and has a higher score <grumble grumble>:
Such a list [of airlines] would not be meaningful. All airlines have wide rules to prohibit "tampering" with seats, with Knee Defenders or otherwise; you can improvise one with a well-sized bottle, after all. Those that point out the Knee Defender as banned are only making it explicit that this specific device is not allowed.
More to the point, if the passenger unable to recline complains, the flight attendants will insist that you stop using it.
Your answer is not an answer and should have been a comment instead.
Rejecting the premise of the question is very frustrating and causes some people to not bother with SE. At least leave a comment asking if they'd consider different types of answer, but otherwise just ignore the question.
So if somebody asks on SE "How many minutes should I microwave my baby to dry them after a bath?", you would not consider "Don't" an acceptable answer?
Suppose the question was "Which airlines ban whacking reclining passengers on the head with rubber chickens?", and I answered "Well, they don't specifically ban assaults with rubber chickens, but any airline's T&C will have something banning violence against other passengers".
Is my answer still off-topic? And how does this differ from what's essentially the same Q & A re: Knee Defenders? At the end of the day, the issue is that you can't tamper aircraft, not that you're doing it with a Knee Defender specifically.
Knee defenders are essential to me because I have long legs. But more importantly it protects my laptop. I've had an incident where the person in front of me suddenly reclined whilst I had my laptop on my tray table. The screen got stuck on the lever to lock the tray table and cracked under the pressure.
I usually just talk to the person in front of me to inform them that I'll use a laptop. Maybe I'm lucky but it's usually pretty easy to work it out.
I had never heard of Knee Defenders before today. I think it's fairly rude to just install them.
I mean, I had people stop reclining because they couldn't move their seat. They look back and see me smiling because my knees block it.
Disclaimer: I'm from Europe, we usually fly in very small planes where there's literally no way to have space unless paying 2-3x the price for business class.
> Disclaimer: I'm from Europe, we usually fly in very small planes where there's literally no way to have space unless paying 2-3x the price for business class.
In my experience, domestic US flights and even some transatlantic flights with US carriers, are just as bad unless you pay extra for more premium carriers or upgrades, just like in Europe.
Same here :)
I can handle 2 hours more less with no space (easy Jet for example), but anything more and my knees start to hurt.
I also think its incredible rude to recline, especially forcefully, like some people have done to me.
I think that these egomaniac people are the same that get to the end of an escalator and stop to see where they should go, or exiting a train and doing the same thing blocking the exit / entrance to anyone else.
Do you also consider it essential to put your belongings under the seats adjacent to you?
I would have more sympathy for your position if I thought it was likely that you investigated the knee room and reclining policy prior to purchasing a ticket.
The claims are that it is all about safety and fairness and blah blah blah. Does anybody saying this honestly believe that 7 footers just wing it? Why should the world be different for the 6'2" than for the 7'1"?
I am less worried about the needs of the person in front of me reclining than the chances of the morbidly obese person I get next to me and then am told I have to keep the armrest up because the other person doesn't fit.
Hence, put me next to the emergency exit which on some planes seems to have more room in front too
This product is like covering up your neighbors reading light because it bothers you. It's not yours to turn on/off. Lack of space is part of air travel, if you can't fit your laptop on a tray that is reclined then pay for first class or get a smaller laptop.