It absolutely is not a load of rubbish. I have personally observed it many times. And I have spent a LOT of time observing. I don't claim to have "proof" however I know what I have seen. I also didn't say "reputable" (a strange word in this context). Also, every/most Casino does not engage in this but some do.
Your claim "they wouldn't do this because they already have an edge" is just silly. Why wouldn't they take a chance to make more money? Especially since, as you say, "proof" is a bit hard. An accidental bump. That's all. No intentional cheating here.
I would like to re-iterate my main point. This is something to watch for if you are a roulette player. If the table wobbles when you push against it... walk away.
If it's company policy, the employees have plenty of incentive to snitch to gaming boards. I used to hang out with a lot of casino dealers in Washington state and every one of them would sell out their boss that day if they were told to do something like this.
You would think so. But I assure you, it occurs. It may be more the dealers themselves with the "casino" turning a blind eye. Maybe they themselves would face suspension of their licenses. Maybe ratting out a casino is not a good idea *looks over shoulder. I don't know.
> It may be more the dealers themselves with the "casino" turning a blind eye.
That strikes me as even less likely. Given that dealers are tipped from winning players, they wouldn't want to cheat in the house's favor unless they're also pocketing the extra winnings. This is the equivalent of overcharging customers and then skimming from the register, except the store's surveillance is better than most.
FWIW, the one instance I have first-hand knowledge of someone being ratted out, it was the casino's owner. She asked a surveillance employee to destroy a tape and he sent it to the state Gaming Commission instead.
Ya, I don't know. I'm just relating what I've observed. And I spent a lot of time doing this observing. It was a sort of "second job" for a number of years. Probably more years than most people who post here have been able to drink beer. I know the game intimately and I have watched dealers who could point the ball where they wanted and watched the table bump scam. I guess I understand people being incredulous. I might be as well if I were not an "expert" on this particular topic. And I don't say expert proudly but rather with a bit of shame on a lot of wasted time and effort (although I am "up" in roulette it is hardly enough to account for these hours, and I am just as equally if not more "down" in other things. I tried to beat slots also with no luck. And of course poker which was probably about a wash and took a lot of time.) But... it did give me a new perspective on randomness. I think there is a lot less of "randomness" and a lot more of "patterns we don't perceive" in the world.
Come on, you're presenting anecdotal evidence to prove that Roulette isn't statistically random with a built in mathematical house edge. It's just silly.
As evidence for what I say I will tell you I have won thousands of dollars at Roulette. Far beyond what one should win "by chance" which should be a negative number for the amount I have played.
Things have changed a bit since then and I don't play anymore. If you start winning more than you should you become known. I will tell you that. And this changes things.
For example, one technique I used was taking advantage of dealers who had skill placing the ball...yes, these do exist. At one Nevada casino in a smaller town I stayed for a few days and played very small amounts of money while watching the dealers. One Asian lady was very adept at placing the ball on the green zeros when she wanted to. So I went to her table and played $40 which I lost. Then I left and watched her while playing small amounts at the craps table. I saw her practice placing the ball on the green zeros 4 times in a row (not sure why she would have done this in public). I walked back to her table and placed some reasonable bets all over the board. As soon as she released the ball I put maximum bets on the green zeros. What do you know? I must have got lucky! I then collected my winnings and checked out. That bet more than paid for my trip.
Roulette is not always as random as it is held up to be. No, I can't "prove it".
Would you like the actual log or the script that makes the log? See the point?
"Anyone claiming to be a winner at roulette in the long term is either lying or delusional."
Possibly but you don't know this. Besides he doesn't claim "over the long term" and states WHY he quit playing.
"The house edge in roulette is huge." Yes. IF the game is random. Read the post above.
Look, as I stated twice before, I don't claim to prove anything. If you chose to believe I am misrepresenting my experiences (motive?) that's fine. I understand. I'm just relating the results of a lot... and I do mean a lot (as in hundreds if not thousands of hours) of observation in hope it saves someone some money from the table bumping scam. I have seen drunks cleaned out with it more than a few times. But you can be "right" if it makes you feel good.
Observation is observation and it makes one a bit of an expert.
Was it "confirmation bias" and "delusion" when I saw a practicing dealer place the ball on the green zero 4 times in a row? Was it "imagination" when I took advantage of that and won a bunch of money? I have a lot of stories like this.
You weren't there. You don't know. You don't have to believe me. If you want to take the time... go observe for yourself.
> Was it "confirmation bias" and "delusion" when I saw a practicing dealer place the ball on the green zero 4 times in a row? Was it "imagination" when I took advantage of that and won a bunch of money?
Absolutely. That is a classic case of observational or confirmation bias, with a sample size of one, it shows absolutely nothing. At odds of 36-1 there will be, randomly, one time in 36 when you make an incorrect hypothesis about the way a roulette ball is going to land, and yet by chance it happens the way you 'predicted'. To confirm your hypothesis with any degree of certainty, one would need to have multiple situations of this kind happen repeatedly. You aren't doing that.
I have seen dealers with this skill many times. And I took advantage of it many times. Read my posts before talking about "sample size". I simply mention __this__ event because it is one of the more skilled dealers I ever encountered.
So... a one in 36 chance. Actually, I'll give you one in 18 as there are two sets of green zeros... 0 and 00.
So what is the chance of this happening 4 times in a row?
1/18 cubed = .000000952 chance of occurring. Probably not confirmation bias. Probably not something one is likely to EVER encounter. (Never mind that I encountered similar many times). If you read the post, I watched her practice doing this. No one was playing at the moment. Then she did it again and I burned her for a lot of money. Read my posts if you care. Or, believe whatever you wish. Roulette is not always random. And if you spent the time I have you would know this.
> 1/184 = .000000952 chance of that occurring. Probably not confirmation bias.
On any one set of four throws. Even if you used the smaller probability of the exact result (rather than grouping the two sets of green zeroes), its exactly the same as the chance of any other result of the four throws.
Sure, any four (or 4 groups of two in this case) has the same chance of appearing. But... these were a "special" 4 under special circumstances. Coincidence? No way!! I was watching her practice! Context is a big part here. I would love to have a big data set of wheel rolls from all over broken into individual dealers and wheels. Collected without knowledge of the dealer of course (which would likely change that which is observed).
Are you claiming I never witnessed the loose leg table bump scam?
That in fact I never beat the house at roulette with some degree of consistency?
Little snipes are easy. But I can tell you both are the case and I am neither lying nor delusional. And,
I'll go ahead and reply to your snipe at the very bottom of the thread as well. Don't mistake the word "observation" for the word "playing". I assure you my observations were fairly objective. And this is why I was able to win at roulette over a period of time. And I became known. This happens.
Feel free to regard it as delusion or whatever and snipe away. It would be nice if you believed me but hey... it doesn't matter. The table bump scam happens. You would be wise to admit that maybe it does if you play roulette and watch for it. If you don't... I guess believe however.
During my roulette "career" which spanned 6 or 7 years I came across maybe 3 or 4 other people who had "figured the game out" to some extent. I never talked with them about it. I became obsessed with beating the game during this time. And I will attest that it can be done to a certain extent at certain times and places. Casinos are wiser now though I believe. They sometimes reverse the wheel direction between spins. They often use different sized balls each spin. This doesn't mean patterns don't exist. It just means they are much more complex and difficult. The easiest to take advantage of are those casinos which employee dealers who are able to aim the ball where they want. This cheating can be used against them. Lazy dealers are good too. They sometimes develop consistency in their throw and quite often the ball will land in a predictable area if you watch careful the position of the wheel when it is released. These were hard to find and even more so now. Here were my informal rules in case anyone is curious:
1) You have to know the wheel and sectors by heart. If you don't, you can't determine patterns when they arise.
2) Don't sit down. You are never going to play for more than a couple of spins. If you don't win, move on. If you do win don't push it. Don't let the eye in the sky observe a repeatable pattern from you. Salt your real bets with some decoy bets.
3) Don't gamble. If you can't determine a probable pattern, don't play. You don't play most of the time.
4) Watch for sectors that seem to follow other sectors. With enough observation you will begin to learn these. When the dealer picks up the ball and throws it a rhythm often develops. The point from which they pick the ball up is the last number. If they remove the ball from the wheel between throws... that isn't a table to play unless you are confident they are good at "aiming" (which is rare). These "follow sectors" are often consistent between dealers, casinos and tables when the pattern forms. As and example, 32 often comes after number 23 if a certain pattern is being formed. If you find that pattern... you have found a dealer in a rut. Time to lay down a bet or two based on other "follows" you know to be in the pattern.
5) Don't drink. You are working. But appearing to drink is cool. Appearing a bit tipsy even better.
6) Don't sit and stare at the table while observing. Walk casually by and glance at the number board. Look curiously as if you are trying to figure out how the game works. If there are some penny or nickle slots with a good view of the action you are in luck. Take a seat and slowly spend some pennies while observing.
But my real advice? Don't waste your time. It's hard, Casinos are wiser now and opportunities less. If you do figure it out and push it they __will__ know who you are and you won't push it long before they take steps. When you go to the next casino surprise.... they will know who you are as well! Don't expect a sleepy dealer.
Your claim "they wouldn't do this because they already have an edge" is just silly. Why wouldn't they take a chance to make more money? Especially since, as you say, "proof" is a bit hard. An accidental bump. That's all. No intentional cheating here.
I would like to re-iterate my main point. This is something to watch for if you are a roulette player. If the table wobbles when you push against it... walk away.