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We're only being dishonest to get your attention. Join us!
350 points by jpadvo on Aug 24, 2013 | hide | past | favorite | 68 comments
In response to a story currently on the front page titled "FB is the Only Other Platform Used by 20% of College Students. Join Us!" [1]

Do you actually want to hire people who are going to fall for dishonest linkbait like that?

YC companies, I understand that you get to post job ads on HN and they automatically show up on the front page. Great. But please, show some respect to the people you are trying to recruit, and show some respect for this exclusive privilege PG gives you.

If you read the full post[1] you'll see that what they are referring to is the college students at a single university. At this university, apparently, 20% of students signed up at launch, and 30% of those use it daily. Making it more like 6% of students, at one university, who use their app. Probably a little more if you count weekly or monthly users. But still. That, in comparison to what the headline claims (20% of college students, everywhere) is ridiculously inaccurate.

And also, what about Google? Way, way more than 20% of college students use Gmail, Docs, etc. And what about things like Craigslist? It is even claimed that their app can tell you "exactly what you need to get done every day, with no input". No input is qualitatively different than "very little input, but it's really easy and quick."

You can, and should, do better. In addition to misleading people being a mean thing to do (even when effective), it doesn't do you any good to mislead your own future employees, anyway. Geez.

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[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6269664




YC companies always have the worst link-baiting lines to get you to click on their job offers. Just put them in a standard template so we know who is looking for what before clicking on the link. I propose:

{company} ({yc season}) looking for {role}

Role should be the actual function title and if applicable mentioning the language-stack (i.e. RoR, node) the candidate should master.


I second this strongly. I'd pay a lot more attention with a simple format. It's more respectful to the audience and makes you seem more professional.

Common objections:

But we're young and hip, we wanna look different from the big companies! - Doesn't matter. Still bad practice.

But we don't like labels. We want generalists. - Then specify that. Asking for a "ninja" or some other nondescript title is retarded.

But we want to say what we do! - That's what the post is for.

YC companies have the exclusive ability to post job ads on the front page. I highly doubt there's any reasonable justification for posting anything aside from a standard template. It's not like you need more help.


There's a popular growth hacking strategy which I like to call the "what the hell" strategy: The content lead-in is deliberately vague but still gives you an idea of what it's about and it makes the reader go "what the hell?" and check it out of morbid curiosity. It's the inverse of link-baiting.


What about this objection?

"We A/B tested the copy and we got far better results with custom, quirky copy than we did with a standard format. Why should we purposely use a version that people find boring and has been proven to be less effective? If you don't like our job postings, then the job isn't for you anyways."


Then I respond with this:

"Your A/B test demonstrates it's better for you in the short term. Great! Now you're just being dishonest, instead of ineffective and dishonest."

EDIT: That probably sounds harsh. I have nothing against YC companies, this advertising is just something I personally find disagreeable and annoying.


I don't get the whole ninja thing - I went to an interview with a set of swords, shurikens and a nunchucks and they refused to hire me. Go figure.

I think that being dishonest is stupid while hiring especially here and for a small start up. You want the elite - treat them like one. A non brain dead person will see through the bullshit in a seconds. So you will be left with second tier candidates.


I think it's ironic that the monthly "who's hiring" posts follow such a guideline and try to inform the potential applicant as much as possible, yet these YC jobpostings go the exact opposite route.


The real irony is the "who's hiring" posts get to the front page the hard way.


As a newer HN user I was surprised that there are no comments on job postings. I've also noticed some interesting posts and think there could be some constructive conversation around them.

I can appreciate why there are no comments but also I think it would be interesting to allow direct feedback to job postings.

Anyone else ever thought this, too?


Reddit allows users to comment on ads.

99% of the time it doesn't go well, especially if they are being dishonest.


HN is, at least in theory, a place where being polite when giving feedback is the norm. Reddit, on the other hand, is a place where humour and rudeness is not only expected, but wanted by the majority.


in the mainstream subreddits, yes. But in the more niche ones, the discourse is civil if not heartwarming (I frequent the bicycling subreddit, personally)


Sure, I just meant within the same 99% that minimaxir was talking about regarding the adverts. (I've found plenty of friendly people in sports, gay and classical music sub-reddits myself.)


Reddit ads are pinned to the top of the page but allow comments. HN ads float with the rest of the links, but don't allow comments.

Either has their pluses and minuses.


In HN they don't float. They go down slowly in a deterministic way. (Perhaps the details of the algoritm have changed a little.) From http://ycombinator.com/newsnews.html#12may11 :

> Now instead of being ranked by points, jobs simply start at position 4 and slide down the page at 4 positions per hour.


And HN is a place where short articles and comments lacking depth are not only expected, but wanted by the majority.


Is that so? I personally go to HN for the comments, mostly. The articles themselves are just fuel for discussion, as I see it. Then again, I only use the daemonology Hacker News Daily as well, so I'm hardly seeing all of it.


God I love reddit. Nothing warms my heart as much as an angry anonymous mob full of inside jokes and puns attacking idiocy in advertising.


I think I've seen a reddit ad upvoted once, maybe twice. The vast majority of them (even when they seem like the hivemind would like them) are downvoted. It's strange.


Comments are off on job postings because they tend to become a running critique of the company or product doing the posting.


"because they tend to become a running critique of the company or product doing the posting"

Why do they feel that is bad? And have they ever been on on HN job postings (if so how long ago)?


https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2022018

Some more background info. Other issues were:

- outing companies that were still under the radar

- hijacking threads with other job postings


Thanks.

PG did a good job (as tptacek did) of trying to spin this [1] but the bottom line is there aren't comments because somehow it's not good for YC. (Which is fine of course since it's YC's sandbox.)

Fully see the problem of course with the "outing companies that were still under the radar". I would have just left it at that. The rest is just a distraction that gives people a reason to refute the additional points made.

In selling it's best to just concentrate on the strongest angles. Otherwise you give people an opening on something that doesn't even matter or a problem that can be solved.

[1] Reminds me of when trying to "explain" to children why they can or have to do something. The bottom line is "we're your parents and that's why and a different set of rules applies to us".


Y Combinator is a business...


Oh, so this has beed tried before?


Yes, it used to be that way.


Fortunately, we can just create meta threads and critique the company anyway.


Until they're killed, as I predict will happen here. (And, that's a reasonable online-community-tending policy, because meta/governance-complaints often spin topics and morale in unwanted directions.)


One reason, iirc, is to prevent stealth companies from being outed.


I still don't understand what stealth companies are all about (I mean the premise of "stealth").

If they say, we're working on X field with some Y tech, but can't discuss details, that's whole 'nother story. With some of these I have no idea what the company is, what it does, why it exists and even why anyone would use them.

If they want to avoid tipping competitors, there better ways of doing that.

I don't know. The whole thing seems silly.


I think the presumption is that you're already in the Bay Area, so all they have to do with the ad is to get you curious, and then it's not very much effort for you to just head over to their building and find out more in person.

Sucks for the rest of us, though.


What determines a post as a job posting and disables comments?


It wouldn't have been that bad had they made one simple change .. from (20% of College Students) to (20% of <some big name school>) or (20% of a major public university).

It would have actually been more impressive if they weren't so vague .. now they are probably going to turn off a lot of good prospects.

I say this as a YC alum whose 1st job post was fairly ill-advised (though not dishonest). Believe me, it is quite tempting to play around, so I wouldn't be too hard especially on the smaller teams who haven't been recruiting/employing for too long.

They will learn, soon enough. It's also important to note that many teams consist of 17-22 year olds, and as this app is aimed at college students it seems like it could be one of those teams. So cut them some slack.


I figured they would learn by getting called out like this. And since the post was anonymous, it doesn't really hurt them anyway. Free learning experience.


And also useful feedback for other YC companies that are queuing up job posts.

There have been previous discussions about the state of some YC job ads (though I can't find them right now), so this isn't the first time people have felt compelled to say something.

edit: Link to previous job post discussions (I know there are others but can't dig them up).

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5230892


I agree with this (particularly since it's anonymous), but piling on seems kind of mean.

Another option would be to simply email the given address and state your complaints. For example that you may have been interested (if you were), but felt mislead by the posting.


The reason I publicly posted this is because it is an issue about community standards, not just a personal issue between me and the company.

It's interesting to think about my own motivations -- I wonder if I would have been gentler if their post hadn't been anonymous. If so, should I have been gentler even though their post was anonymous? Anyway, I apologize if this caused unnecessary hurt, I didn't mean to.


I didn't mean to imply that you were piling on, and I don't doubt your intentions one bit. . The problem is that once this is posted, you have little control over the outcome in the comment threads and piling on is inevitable. Again, not a criticism of you at all, my reply was aimed at the comments in the thread.


Perhaps, but part of the reason for making a post like this is to bring attention to the format. We can cut them some slack, but being 17-22 doesn't require linkbait job posts. Plus, it's not like it requires so much experience to understand why linkbait is not in your favor on Hacker News. Some of the linkbaitiest titles are the ones I see consistently reposted - it doesn't work and it's somewhat annoying.

A really good format would be, as another commenter said:

{YC Company} {Season Number} is looking for {Job Title}. Join us!

Bam. Doesn't that just look better? Sexier? More appealing and respectful? You don't have to be 25+ to get that, it just has to be introduced.

So, now that it's the top story on HN, and has been introduced, let's maybe try to codify it for future job postings?


I think that's a decent format (assuming the startup is launched), but it doesn't encapsulate the spirit of some jobs. For example, I actually like posts like the following (right now the 2nd post on the board):

Help us build the mobile app farmers really want https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6266489

It intrigues me a lot more than "FarmLogs (YC sXX) seeks iOS developer". If that was the title, I might think it was some stupid iphone game and ignore it.

But if you click on it, it's a really interesting startup that could help a lot of people not normally helped by technology.


Help us build the mobile app farmers really want

Interestingly, that headline first read "John Deere sucks at software. Help us build the mobile app farmers really want." Someone must have edited it because it is not a good idea to alienate a possible future partner/acquirer. These are new companies, and they are still learning how to handle publicity and marketing. It is also possible that they intended to cause a stir with the controversial headline and generate buzz.


they are still learning how to handle publicity and marketing.

I think this is a crucial observation. Anyone who is recruiting (or fundraising, selling etc) wants to generate buzz, but those without experience do not naturally know where exactly to draw the line for what type of audience.


Looks like they made an edit: "Disrupt Education: Seeking Lead Engineer for Platform with Traction & Revenue"


well what if it's 20% of the National University of Singapore? That's not exactly a big name school in the Bay Area. (By now I have an idea which company this is)


The ad says "small team based in the Bay Area" so I doubt it's the National University of Singapore.


NUS and Berkeley have both the similar number of students ~30,000. Berkeley might be good for getting close to the users, but NUS would be better if one wants to remain stealthy or study adoption a la Google Fiber not being in California. Still you are probably right since there doesn't seem to be any asians on the team. If it's Berkeley, Marty Nemko should be involved, but can't find clues to that yet, although the original post contains two smoking guns, methinks.


Thanks for addressing this, I was wondering what was going on with that other post. The content did seem intriguing, but also a little shady at the same time.


FWIW this shows what it takes to get to the front page. There are a lot of interesting links in "new" right now but only stuff with a bit of negative tension gets boosted to the front page (fear & conspiracies work!) Disclaimer: I provided the crucial vote that boosted this here very thread.


YC job ads are not voted on. They appear on the front page automatically.


i'm not talking that YC job, I'm talking about this post replying to the YC job.


There's a big difference between "getting to the front page" and receiving more than 1 upvote per minute.


not if you cast the second vote within a minute. the subsequent votes don't help as much as the second vote, which already gets it too far (where people on the first few pages in the main section can see it)


[deleted]


> "YC companies have totally lost focus they are now just broadcasting."

This is unfair. There are a lot of YC companies and many do write clear, informative ads.


They couldn't be half as shady as Facebook even if they tried.


Hats off to that! Lots of the job postings on HN tend to make outlandish requests/offerings just because 'hey we got HN front page'. Some are downright shameful.

Also, in before the HN cabal muzzles this one.


What is really dishonest is not having an option to downvote a job ad.


Looks like they've changed the title and apologized.


The way I saw it was that they only operate at a few universities, and at the ones they do, they have 20% of the student body.

That being said, I agree it was disingenuous at the least and downright misleading at the worst.


That's a load off. I thought they were talking about Tumblr.


Thankyou for posting this!


seems like this worked, being at the top of HN and all...


who cares honestly, everyone talks shit when they are recruiting. if an applicant can't figure that out, what gives?


Unfortunately, dishonesty sells. How did all the large megacorporations get to where they are now?

Not by being great programmers and free thinkers, but by being greedy businessmen and, later, buying tons of lobbyists.

This piece of shit company is ... well... just being a normal company.


Dishonesty sells to 95% of the population, sure. That's the part of the population without critical thinking skills or the desire to fact check things they read. If you're selling a hairspray or something, being a bit dishonest is probably highly recommended.

The problem is these companies are trying to hire top notch talent - the 5% of the population that is least likely to be happy about dishonesty. Especially when it comes to a major decision like a new job. It's simply a mistake and the marketing is unneeded - if you're a YC company, the HN crowd has at least read your announcement in techcrunch and knows what you're trying to do.


    Unfortunately, dishonesty sells. How did all the
    large megacorporations get to where they are now?

    Not by being great programmers and free thinkers,
    but by being greedy businessmen and, later, buying
    tons of lobbyists.

    This piece of shit company is ... well... just being
    a normal company.
Citation needed.


Although I am one to also ask from time to time for links or citations I think that in this case this is clearly one persons opinion as opposed to someone saying "it is well known that dishonesty sells and that all large mega corporations get to where they are by.." [1]

As far as "dishonesty" in business that is determined many times by when the consensus actions of a particular industry is. Behavior in one industry in many cases means you have to play the same game or perish. Each industry works differently.

[1] Add: In which case a citation would be appropriate.


Confirmation bias is pretty close. People actively seek out not neutral factual information, but whatever makes them happy. Conservatives watch Fox NEWS because it makes them feel good about themselves. Liberals watch MSNBC because it makes them feel good about themselves. "Truth be damned, lie to me! It makes me happy."

Big oil doesn't cause global warming because that would make a bunch of rich powerful people bad guys, and they can't have that.

And, sales, marketing, and advertisers aren't sleazy liars because that would make them bad guys, and they can't see that. They can't. It's impossible. Can't be true. No way.

Advertisers are just showing people what they want to see. What they demand to see. They demand to be lied to, so it's okay.


    I think that in this case this is
    clearly one persons opinion
Agreed, but they should've phrased it as such as opposed to stating it as fact. I appreciate that your reply included "I think" :)




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