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Congrats to Condi Rice, Joe Biden and Obama, all of whom became President today. (washingtoncitypaper.com)
70 points by yummyfajitas on Jan 21, 2009 | hide | past | favorite | 30 comments



If Obama was not president because he wasn't sworn in yet, then certainly neither Biden nor Rice were president either since they hadn't sworn in.

Per the 20th amendment[1], the new president's term begins immediately after the old president's term ends. This means that Obama became president at 12:00, even without being sworn in. He couldn't "enter on the execution of his office" until he was sworn in, but he was nonetheless president.

[1] http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html#Am20


> If Obama was not president because he wasn't sworn in yet, then certainly neither Biden nor Rice were president either since they hadn't sworn in.

The argument is that Rice was president due to the succession laws. I understand that this succession does not require swearing in. Then, as soon as Biden did swear in, at 12:01, he became acting President.


I agree. The constitutional lawyer was just blowing smoke.


Yeah, if this law professor were at all confident in his pronouncements he would publish his views somewhere where other law professors could see and critique them--not on some layman's Facebook page.


Furthermore, even if you buy that at 12:00 Bush and Cheney's terms had ended but Biden and Obama's had not begun, wouldn't the proper order of succession made Nancy Pelosi the president? I'm having trouble envisioning any interpretation which would have made Rice the president.


This is addressed in TFA:

(6) Neither Nancy Pelosi nor Robert Byrd actually resigned their seats in the Congress. Thus, neither of them qualified to become Acting President under the Presidential Succession Act. Plus, interbranch appointments might be unconstitutional anyhow. See Akhil Reed Amar and Vikram David Amar, Is the Presidential Succession Law Constitutional?, 48 Stan. L. Rev. 113 (1995); but see Howard Wasserman, Structural Principles and Presidential Succession, 90 Ky. L.J. 345 (2002).

furthermore, to the parent comment:

I suppose the obvious counterargument is that Secretary Rice also never took the Oath prescribed in Art. II, Sec. 1, cl. 8, and thus was no more qualified than Barack Obama or Joe Biden to act as President at 12:00 noon. But if Secretary Rice was not President from noon to 12:01, then who was?

Verdict: today is an interesting meatspace reminder to check your edge cases.


"Verdict: today is an interesting meatspace reminder to check your edge cases."

Actually, it's also a reminder that, like plentyoffish, a working system can ignore edge cases and be incredibly successful for unrelated reasons, and only a few people will complain about the failure at the edge. :)


Plus, if Rice was appointed President, I don't think that Obama could legally just reacquire his deserved Presidency. She would have to appoint a VP and whoever (the Congress?) would appoint someone to replace her.


If I read TFA correctly, Biden was sworn in privately earlier and thus was president. Rice wasn't though.


Biden was sworn in publicly, at 11:45am. Its the part where Joe Biden is talking right before he turns around, shakes Obama's hand, and kisses him on the cheek. (Super awesome).


Wow. So geeks sit around in forums arguing the finer points of eigenclasses, and constitutional lawyers sit around in forums arguing about who is president during a 60-second period. Awesomeness!


Ridiculous.

Here's a better debunking than I can give myself:

http://yazilikaya.blogspot.com/2009/01/first-legal-wrangling...

But many have noted that his legitimacy is not really in question because he officially became President Obama (pause to savor that...) at noon, and the oath is just a formality. Amendment XX apparently confirms this:

The terms of the President and Vice President shall end at noon on the 20th day of January . . . and the terms of their successors shall then begin.

From a practical standpoint, Amendment XX might have functionally eliminated the oath requirement since it is not really possible to separate being president and executing the office of president, and the amendment is very clear that there are no obstacles to taking office after noon on 1/20. That's my interpretation -- I think if this were ever seriously challenged in court, the elimination of the oath as a Constitutional requirement would be the result.

Also, the VP's oath is only mandated by statute. ALSO, because of Amendment XX, and contra Katie Couric, Biden was not president for five minutes today.


Ridiculous.

On what grounds is it "ridiculous"? The cited article quotes a professor of constitutional law, your linked article is from a random blogger (who seems remarkably confident about what he "thinks" would happen if it were ever challenged in court). At first glance, both interpretations seem plausible.


1) If a President shall not have been chosen before the time fixed for the beginning of his term, 2) or if the President elect shall have failed to qualify, then 3) the Vice President elect shall act as President until a President shall have qualified

1) Did not happen, Obama was chosen (President Elect) weeks ago. 2) Did not happen, Obama was at no point refused the Presidency between his election and his inauguration. Consequently 3) did not happen.

Anyway, if Obama was not president because he had not been sworn in then nobody else was for the same reason, and if you follow the argument in the blog then you get to "the {XYZ Position} shall act as President". Acting as president is not being president anymore than acting as a Spaniard makes you a Spaniard.

Also, if you read "Before he enter on the Execution of his Office, he shall take the following oath. . . ” without any surrounding context then it's vague. There is no office of President-Elect, Barack Obama has no office, so it could read:

Before he [The President] enter on the Execution of his Office...

As in, someone has to be President before being able to take oath and execute the office of President. Similar (in my layman's terms) to how ex-presidents retain the title of President without executing the office of president.

But if Secretary Rice was not President from noon to 12:01, then who was?

If you guys had a constitution written in Haskell you could have a "maybe nobody" president and it could be lazily-evaluated so this question would never be explored until it was really needed.

The cited article quotes a professor of constitutional law Fallacy of "proof by appeal to authority" alert.


"If you guys had a constitution written in Haskell you could have a "maybe nobody" president and it could be lazily-evaluated so this question would never be explored until it was really needed."

Wow, you just seamlessly combined constitutional law geekery with computer science geekery in a way that actually made sense. I wonder if this has ever been accomplished before now.

I also wonder what President Obama himself makes of all this, given that he IS a constitutional law scholar. This is a good reason to give the man his Blackberry back, so he can directly weigh in on important questions like this.


Condi's term as Secretary of State would also have ended at 12:00, so at that point she wouldn't have fallen anywhere within the chain of command.


False. Condi remains SoS until she is fired by Obama


Typically they all submit their resignation effective at the end of the term. If the new president wants them to stay on, he'll ask them to do so ahead of time - I'm not sure if they have to be confirmed again, though... Since we haven't heard of that happening, I'm guessing not.


I just assumed it was a 3 minute tape delay like a sporting event or award show, just in case Dick Cheney accidentally blurted out an obscenity near an open mic.


It's funny to see someone who claims to be an expert be so wrong. We can learn something from that.


Sometimes people can be willfully ignorant. Take doctor's who believe in homeopathy, or CS students who don't believe in uncountability (I know one).


So at 12:01 Condi Rice, who actually is a black belt, takes out Biden and Obama, immediately pulling out a presidential pardon for herself and signing it. Thus she would be #44 (and the first black, woman president)

Make a great Kung Fu/Ninja/Steven Seagal movie. I'd probably watch it. If I were drunk and left in a room with nothing else to do.

I was fascinated at how full-of-holes most laws are. You'd think if the Congress passed a "Presidential Succession Act" then that would be the end of that, but no. Turns out, as opposed to what we learned in civics class, simply because the Congress passes a law doesn't mean that it will ever be applied the way they wanted it to.


I would bet that if the US were invaded right at 12:01, Obama would be calling the shots, not Biden or Rice.

Letter of the law, meaning of the law, and all that.


what if it were invaded at 11:59? :)


Then Batman's in charge.


Nice to see a link to the city paper; that's my favorite little rag around here. They did some great journalism on the Thomas Sweat serial arson story a couple years ago...I'll have to look for the online versions of some of the better articles I read in there and post them.


Update: my Aunt informed me that there was a private swearing in at precisely 12:00. She claims the 12:03 oath was just for the TV.

She sourced this to an anonymous TV talking head on a channel she doesn't recall. Anyone able to confirm/deny this?


your aunt is wrong. logistical impossibility. that, however, does not preclude the possibility that obama was indeed sworn in earlier in the day or more likely the night before.


Then who was that on the dais at precisely 12:00 who looked like Obama?


Lawyers doing something useful with their time, for a change.




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