I say this as a Christian: most churches I've seen aren't really following what Christ teaches. They're often filled with some of the most hateful, spiteful, and conceited people I've ever met. Ask yourselves, when they talk about LGBT people are they saying things out of love and understanding or are they trying to throw stones? I generally agree, homosexuality is pretty easy to see as a sin in the Christian bible most Americans know, but in the end was Jesus going around and telling people to be mean and spiteful to those who practice different things? Did Paul tell Timothy to burn down the temples in Ephesus? Didn't he say Christians are to love Cesear despite the oppression? Did God tell Daniel to cast judgement and be hateful to the Babylonians and their diet, or was Daniel just supposed to continue to be faithful to his religion? So what is the real Christian response to those who practice different things?
And this is just one of many topics!
If Jesus came back today he'd be making whips and flipping tables all day long.
I have always thought that Jesus would not be too great fan of Churches as big buildings in general... Community centres probably, but the churches themselves... And specially not broadcasting it on tv...
"Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. [...] And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full."
Paul and Daniel didn't have any temporal power, our religion teaches us Christians should seek to wield temporal power when possible to create more virtuous societies.
I didn't realize sending people to prison for paperwork issues and denying healthcare to the poor so wealthy people can continue enriching themselves is creating a more virtuous, Christ-like society.
Sadly, this is very true in my experience. We are all fallen to some degree, but few, including Christians, seem to have the humility to recognize this in themselves.
Regarding the Robert Morris reference, not going to defend any action, but I will point out his 'bad action' was 40 years ago.
Why does that matter? There are abuses happening now, every day, by high profile. Some (Epstein, Diddy) are starting to be caught. Others (Drake) may face judgement far into the future. Others (Chris Brown) never will.
If criticizing modern church culture requires referencing acts of 40 years ago, and criticizing secular culture requires references acts that happened recently, and will probably happen again tomorrow, that could indicate that the modern USA church is doing better than we think. Possibly a lot better.
Maybe the original action (the sexual abuse) happened 40 years ago. But he continued to lie about it until recently and pushed other people to lie on his behalf. This isn't 40 years ago, this is still very recently. This is still wrong and was a wrong that was ongoing. Had he actually been honest about these things and properly served whatever justice is right for these things and lived openly about it for the last 40 years, it would be a very different story.
And now he's suing the church for millions of dollars for some retirement he feels he's entitled to. This is church money,
which should be used to push the work of Christ. He's massively enriching himself, to continue living a lavish lifestyle instead of actually helping the people he was charged to help. Yet another wrong.
From what I've heard, he has disclosed actions years, possibly decades, ago but did not mention that involvement of a minor. I expect this is because a lawyer, or possibly anyone with a quarter of a brain, gave the same advice to him as they would any other human - shut your mouth. Is that a wrong?
> And now he's suing the church for millions of dollars for some retirement he feels he's entitled to.
One article [0] says "his attorney sent a letter to church lawyers [demanding] more than $1 million that had accrued in Morris's retirement account". Again, I suspect that he is getting advice from lawyers to do what they would advise any other human to do - collect on earned retirement benefits. Is that a wrong?
> He's massively enriching himself, to continue living a lavish lifestyle
If you'll forgive the crudeness of this comparison, I expect that running a church of 100,000 attendees to be of comparable, but not equal, complexity as a company with 100,000 customers. That could make running Gateway in the same ballpark as running Asana. The CEO of Asana gets 15 million a year for his trouble. Morris got, what, 5% of that? 3%? Is it self-enrichment to offer world-class leadership to a church at a 95% discount to its free market value?
Continuing to lie and hide these things is wrong. Telling a few people and pressuring them to lie on your behalf doesn't make the lie better. It's incredible you're arguing otherwise and really points to your character.
And while it might be sound legal advice to shut your mouth, it's not necessarily the moral thing to do.
And yes, I think it's wrong pastors are paid millions of dollars, and that he's suing to try and continue the gravy train. And its asinine to compare counts of attendees to a church as the number of employees at a company. People attending a church aren't employees. And comparing the mission to the church to a for profit enterprise is once again just clearly missing the point.
If the person leading the congregation is making significantly more than the poorest of the congregation there's a real problem.
Your continued comments just further exemplify the things I find wrong in the modern Christian church.
> And its asinine to compare counts of attendees to a church as the number of employees at a company.
You did not comprehend my comments, because I did not.
> And while it might be sound legal advice to shut your mouth, it's not necessarily the moral thing to do.
I hope that you argue that the 5th amendment is immoral when anyone uses it, and not just pastors.
> If the person leading the congregation is making significantly more than the poorest of the congregation there's a real problem.
Ideally a congregation will include all of society, which will include people making zero, so your argument becomes that a pastor making significantly more than zero is immoral.
I would challenge you to find a moral basis for that in the Bible.
Apologies, I guess I did misread the employees and customers part.
> I hope that you argue that the 5th amendment is immoral when anyone uses it, and not just pastors.
Once again, you're not understanding man's law isn't God's law.
And also he wasn't just not bringing it up, he was actively suppressing his victim from coming forward with the truth, having his lawyers tell her she would face jail time for bringing up the truth. If you don't see that as morally wrong I don't know what to tell you.
And I'm not against pastors being paid. Absolutely, they should be compensated for their work. Paul says this. But they shouldn't be living in mansions with fancy cars and private jets and living a life of opulence. If those around them are living homeless and hungry while they pull down millions, there's a problem.
Sure, the actual claim is more of a vibe. A nebulous, anecdatal "Christians are the worst". A distinction, but hardly a difference.
> most churches I've seen aren't really following what Christ teaches. They're often filled with some of the most hateful, spiteful, and conceited people I've ever met
That's why Jesus said "Better pick up a stone otherwise you're just encouraging adultery!"
I'm not for encouraging people to get abortions. I think abortions are a terrible and sad thing. I wish for a world where nobody would ever need to have such a procedure done. I also think its terrible to have the state force people to carry risky pregnancies to term. I also think its bad for us to then go on and be hateful to those who have had an abortion, and I also think its wrong to firebomb places which give healthcare.
> That's why Jesus said "Better pick up a stone otherwise you're just encouraging adultery!"
Your implied argument is what, exactly? That JC opposed the death penalty for adultry, ergo he's against shaming single mothers, even if it leads to better outcomes? Bit of a stretch.
> I also think its bad for us to then go on and be hateful to those who have had an abortion, and I also think its wrong to firebomb places which give healthcare.
These opinions are shared by all mainstream Christian churches and the overwhelming majority of Christians.
My argument is Jesus taught us to not throw stones. Maybe you disagree, assuming throwing stones leads to some better outcome by your measure. Just because you're not arguing we should throw physical rocks doesn't mean you're not arguing for the stones, your stones are just different.
Like, what exactly are you proposing when you say shaming and disowning women and children? No food stamps or healthcare for kids born out of wedlock? No public education for kids born to single mothers? Trap people in abusive relationships or have those people be destitute without any aid? Very Christlike!
Tell me buddy, what stones do you propose we throw? Which are the most Christlike? After all, Paul says Jesus died for everyone, save for those single mothers and their illegitimate children!
What kind of shaming are you envisioning to prevent pregnancies? Have actual hard data to back that up?
If any of my kids have a child out of wedlock I'm not disowning my child or their kids. Don't get me wrong, I'd hope I instill virtues that lead to them never being in such a situation, but I don't think I'm called to disown my family for making a mistake. We all fail in life, we're supposed to be there for those who need help not push people away who are struggling. But I guess to you disowning them is your Christlike response. Be sure to let your kid know if they mess up they're on their own, after all that's the standard Christ holds us to right?
But hey, disowning and shaming is to you the Christlike response. And you wonder where are all these hateful Christians people talk about.
And to an extent, I do get what you're saying, and I do partially agree. I've definitely been around lots of people who say their Christian but in the end do nothing to actually push those around them, especially fellow Christians, to actually live a Christlike life. I think we should teach our kids Christian values. I think we should advocate for those around us to see our point of view. I think we should do what we can to convince society we're doing it a good way and they should follow. I don't think it's right to use government violence against people to force them to live our lifestyle though. I don't think it's right to be spiteful and mean to gentiles, to those who live a different life from us.
> These opinions are shared by all mainstream Christian churches and the overwhelming majority of Christians.
I guess you'd be surprised how many people I heard which were OK with the bombing of the fertility clinic thinking it was an abortion facility. I've had multiple people tell me they got what they had coming to them with all the embryos they've murdered. I guess you haven't seen the lines of people yelling at people going to clinics, calling people murderers and throwing refuse. I guess you haven't been in pews hearing the person up front cheering for laws that will cause people to die.
The political party allegedly being the voice for Christian views has an extremely anti-immigrant stance, sending people to pretty extreme prisons for little evidence of doing anything wrong but being someplace with questionable paperwork. They want to eliminate school lunches. They're trying to massively downsize Medicaid. All to help wealthy people build bigger barns. Seems pretty at odds to the things Jesus taught us to do.
Matthew Chapter 25:
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
Leviticus 19:33-34:
When a stranger sojourns with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong. You shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.
Luke 12:
16 And he told them this parable: “The ground of a certain rich man yielded an abundant harvest. 17 He thought to himself, ‘What shall I do? I have no place to store my crops.’
18 “Then he said, ‘This is what I’ll do. I will tear down my barns and build bigger ones, and there I will store my surplus grain. 19 And I’ll say to myself, “You have plenty of grain laid up for many years. Take life easy; eat, drink and be merry.”’
20 “But God said to him, ‘You fool! This very night your life will be demanded from you. Then who will get what you have prepared for yourself?’
21 “This is how it will be with whoever stores up things for themselves but is not rich toward God.”
I'm so happy that you put that scripture here(Matthew 25). I have an inner dialog constantly that involves a certain someone telling me that I did not feed them, shelter them, or visit them when they were sick or in prison.
We are all so worried that if we give strangers(or immigrants) our food, clothes, and shelter - there won't be any left for us! I think we are worried about nothing. If we all pooled our tiny fragments of mustard seed, nothing would be impossible...
15 As evening approached, the disciples came to him and said, “This is a remote place, and it’s already getting late. Send the crowds away, so they can go to the villages and buy themselves some food.”
16 Jesus replied, “They do not need to go away. You give them something to eat.”
17 “We have here only five loaves of bread and two fish,” they answered.
18 “Bring them here to me,” he said. 19 And he directed the people to sit down on the grass. Taking the five loaves and the two fish and looking up to heaven, he gave thanks and broke the loaves. Then he gave them to the disciples, and the disciples gave them to the people. 20 They all ate and were satisfied, and the disciples picked up twelve basketfuls of broken pieces that were left over. 21 The number of those who ate was about five thousand men, besides women and children.
A lot of people see this as purely a supernatural thing Jesus did. As if the pile of broken bread pieces just kept growing and growing out of nothing. Maybe that's what happened. But maybe it was also that so many saw the charity that was happening and were also so compelled to share what they had. I think both possibilities are supported by this scripture.
