I got this book [0] by Mark Forster [1], tried the techniques and found out what works for me. It is a gold mine.

The author describes in his blog [2] many more of his ideas and experiments about productivity.

[0] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/26171733-secrets-of-prod...

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Forster_(author)

[2] http://markforster.squarespace.com

Thank you for recommending this book. Started to read, seems like very different from other productivity books and useful.

I am glad you found it useful!

Thank you, what techniques resonated with you?

For me, simplicity and reduction of resistance [0] were the most effective improvements. Mark is always kind enough to explain the psychological underpinnings of productivity, or its absence.

[0] http://markforster.squarespace.com/blog/2022/6/13/resistance...

Thanks! This was a nice short read.

Generally I keep two different lists. One is for things I have to do on at a specific time (generally by day). This is often work related things, appointments, etc

Then I have a list for “Someday Maybe”. The wording of this is important. At the moment I add the task it feels pretty important, but often that feeling fades. I purposefully let that list cook for a while and come back to it one a weekly basis. If the thing still seems exciting I’ll pick it up.

This is pretty vague and not exactly how I do things day to day, but the key points are: reframing some tasks as “someday” or “maybe”. That reduces guilt if I don’t end up doing them but even more importantly it reduces mental clutter. It’s on paper so I can forget about it for now and refocus on the moment

Who said you had to create schedules as a part of accumulating information? If by schedule, you mean that a you've created a long list of topics that you haven't learned and feel you should, then of course that will feel intimidating.

But playing a game and learning about a game are two separate activities. The key is to spend your time actually playing the game. Playing the game consistently will feed the drive to learn more about it, and if both of those things feel like a chore, then why are you doing it in the first place?

Magic is just one example, but to be more specific with another hobby, I'll use music as an example.

The problem I have with music, is that I can't get it to sound like the other music that I like. And no amount of just "making music" will get me to sound like that.

Instead, what you need to do is actually study other people's music, through analysis, studying genre, watch tutorials etc. And this has helped me significantly. The reason I say that this is because I've had so many epiphanies about how I've been doing it completely "wrong" in regards to what I thought I should have been doing vs what I actually should have been doing.

In addition, if I just focus on making music I get demotivated cause it just doesn't sound like how I want it to.

The problem is that it's really hard to balance between making music and studying music. When you're studying music, it's like that becomes your focus and it consumes you. Which also demotivates you from making music.

But yeah, obviously I'm aware of what the issues are, but I'm not quite sure how to approach it all in a sustainable way.

When you are learning a skill, you have what I call structure learning, free-play, feedback and deliberate practice.

The structure of the skill is the curriculum, so to speak - but the skill itself is an action. When someone is learning music theory, they are really just learning what the structure of the skill is. If they knew the series of actions they needed to take, the goals they needed to set for themselves in practice, and the relationship between those competencies - then they would have no need of theory. The theory informs us of what the structure is.

In most skills and hobbies, you don't need much theory. This is because people have created drills and identified the fundamentals over time. Everything has been organized for you.

That's the structure. Here's the interesting thing - you don't need much structure at all. If the structure is a tree or graph representing the fundamentals you need to master, all you need to know is the next node - the next skill you will focus on.

That's where practice comes in. Practice should be your primary focus, not your secondary focus. Some fraction of that should be "free-play", or curiosity driven exploration & synthesis. You add that in because it's critical for learning, and because it keeps things feeling fresh - but the real value-add is to learn to enjoy the practice. If you "play" at practicing, then you're golden.

Practice though, must be deliberate. You don't just "make music". You have identified something you want to work on, and you attempt it through repetition. You compare your effort to the end-result (using feedback), and you repeat. This loop never ends. If you feel you've mastered something, you move on to the next thing. If you don't know what the next thing is, then you turn to theory in order to identify it.

That's all the balance you need. Learning about a thing is not doing the thing. Do the thing. Identify what you want to work on, draw a little progress meter on piece of paper, and start doing it. Do it for 20 hours, filling up the meter. At the end of 20 hours, you have a choice: draw another meter for another task, or stop doing the thing.

The problem you face is thinking that motivation is your problem. Your problem is that you are not doing the thing. How you feel when you are not doing the thing is irrelevant. How you feel after you've done the thing - and you notice that it's not what you wanted to it be - is irrelevant. You will never be at the goal, that's the whole point of practice.

Thanks for that.

I agree with what you say and I've definitely considered and thought about what you've said in the past, but it never quite works like that in practice. But that's also to say that I'm being unreasonable.

In the case of music for example, I had the realisation that part of the reason why I struggled is because I simply had no idea what I was listening to. This lead me to spend around 4 months familiarising myself with every single EDM genre and the kinds of sounds they use, and although I now find this knowledge invaluable, I'm not sure how I would have done this whilst also maintaining practice. In my mind, it was a necessary evil that I just had to knock out of the way, to the detriment of actual practice.

I guess my issue is my all or nothing attitude, which I really struggle to avoid and somehow even if I do start balanced and focused on practice, it somehow ends up becoming "all in" on a single way of learning.

But a question if you're available:

- How do you maintain that interest/curiosity without going "all in"? You say the feeling is irrelevant, but what is the drive? How do you maintain consistent curiosity?

I often think that the mania is a coping mechanism for a lack of curiosity/interest, and perhaps as well to mask the anxiety/boredom that art can bring.

1. How do I maintain interest/curiosity? I do not. I lose momentum and interest. I get depressed. So I pull out a blank sheet of paper and draw a progress meter. I commit to 20 hours of practice - dedicated either to a new skill or to generally overcoming my stagnation. I have done this dozens of times, and it has never failed, I always regain my passion.

2. How do I avoid going all in? Going all in is my default. I treat the 20 hour mark not only as a goal, but as a stopping point. I must make the conscious decision to draw another meter in order to continue, after considering how my time is being spent - otherwise I can become obsessed and lose balance in my life.

Note that your phrasing is self-defeating. You are telling yourself a story which appears maladaptive. Just listen to yourself: 4 months of valuable experience was an "evil" that you had to "knock out" to the "detriment" of "actual" practice.

You identified a weakness: You knew that you needed to develop your ear, and make sense of the territory. You might have collected a hundred brief sound clips and challenged yourself to identify the sub-genre. You might have randomly selected a genre and challenged yourself to produce a very brief (even minimal) piece that expresses its essence. You might have taken a short composition and, for any given genre, challenged yourself to reinterpret your own song in that style.

Here's an idea. Take 5 different genres, and challenge yourself to making a short piece that gradually and naturally transitions between them. Optionally ignore all other constraints, like global structure, general appeal, consistent aesthetics, etc.

You did 4 months of practice which was in all likelihood less than ideal, somewhat inefficient. So what? That's a positive, not a negative. Next time, try to incorporate "doing the thing" into your regimen and you won't feel like you've lost momentum.

Interesting, do you have any examples/literature on this idea of a progress meter? I think I might try that. Especially the whole 20 hour idea, I think will be really useful for me.

Here's an old album of the style meter I use [1]. I recommend a soothing blue & green for hobbies, I use red for client work. 20 Hours is the allocation for all skill learning. The tokens are part of a much larger whole as I've unified fun, skills, work, mental health and financial planning into a single system. I have programs that do most of it, but keeping it as a marker/paper UI is critical if you struggle with mental health or motivation, so that you can easily bootstrap yourself.

I extended the 20 hour practice idea from Josh Kaufman [2]

I highly recommend Sam Harris (Waking Up), Alan Watts, Laozi for mindfulness / meditation, as well as Iain McGilchrist (The Master & His Emissary), Mihály Csíkszentmihályi (Flow) and David Foster Wallace (Infinite Jest) for metaphorical inspiration. Learning to play at life in any moment helps to eliminate tedium & boredom from your vocabulary.

[1] https://imgur.com/a/pMudls5 [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MgBikgcWnY

Excellent answer!

I keep lists for everything, and I found that removing the time requirements from most things alleviated the stress. Now I just keep lists of things I need/want to remember.

I actually have a note/list for Magic The Gathering (I have one for every game I play). I keep a list of every deck I have with ideas and things to try for each one. When I see a card or ability I want to try, I write it down to remember. I also keep a list of new deck ideas.

For learning things, I tend to make lists of concepts and sub-concepts to learn, but I don't worry about when I need to learn it. I just get to it whenever. All my lists are organized into note files on specific topics, so whenever I want to remember what I need to do for any particular thing, I just open that note and see how my progress is on that thing.

It's important to be okay with deleting a bunch of stuff out of your lists when you don't need it anymore. Sometimes you make a big nice list about something, but then you finish the project and half the stuff isn't checked off the list. Sometimes you just need to re-work the list.

So for me, the notes and lists are a memory aid. When I go back to learning something, I don't need to do a bunch of prerequisite analysis every time to remember what I was supposed to be doing. I just re-get my memory from my notes and take off with it.

For me, lists work great... as long as they don't turn into obligations.

I keep a legal pad on my desk. I keep a running list of anything I want to learn, accomplish, research, etc. If I finish an item, I mark through it. Once I turn a page, I rarely revisit. If something is important, it'll make a second or third appearance on the list and eventually get scratched off. Once I fill up a pad, I throw it away and start fresh.

Treating lists, and really, nearly all my personal notes, as disposable is incredibly freeing.

The thing is, what if you're learning something particularly complex? How do you go about documenting what you need to do, because a simple list like that wouldn't seem to suffice?

Maybe my issue is how I go about documentation, as opposed to lists.

It might also just be that I don't know how to make a list not end up being an obligation. Aren't they obligations by definition, a thing you need to do?

Create a new checklist every day. I just use a pad of paper on my desk and list the ~3-5 things I want to get done on that given day. If I have next steps for upcoming days, I'll make note of that so I have it recorded.

But every day I'll decide what I'm going to tackle, that way there is no obligation from the past lists. I will refer back to them to see what I wanted my current self to do. I might not agree with my past self on what is important.

For me, the act of writing something down helps with memory and comprehension. Reviewing something I wrote down a week ago does not. If I forget it, I look it up and write it down again. Eventually it sticks.

Or it doesn't.

> How do you be productive without lists?

This is a really interesting discussion. I’m a professional musician. If a work that I have to prepare isn’t already “in my fingers” then I have to make up a process for learning it. Difficulty/length/complexity vs time are my variables to work with. I don’t make lists. Instead, I mark my musical score extensively, bracketing what will need more attention. Then I structure my practice sessions around those zones. But, as a rule, I don’t “program” them in a rigid way. I do make use of journal in which I record what I worked on today. From that, my clarity about where to go next emerges. I suppose for me it’s about injecting just the right amount of structure while allowing the whole process to still be a creative act. Maybe something in that for you?

Reading through the comments, I wonder if you put unreasonable pressure on yourself about the pace of your acquisition of the material. If the pursuit is truly for enjoyment, then letting go of expectations about the outcome can paradoxically lead to better outcomes! But maybe I’m over-interpreting here.

For your hobby of music though, constantly pivoting between the technical and what goes on in the sound world can only help. Again, with music, patience and careful listening to yourself are key. I tell my students that the practice room is less like a gym and more like a laboratory. Bringing a spirit of experimentation and playfulness can help in ways that over-objectifying the material and over-structuring it cannot. And in the making of music, knowing and doing have to be unified; that's the nature of embodied cognition.

Thanks for that.

Having both played many instruments and getting into music composition, I can say that music composition is fundamentally quite different.

Instrument practice is easy in that there is no ambiguity. There is the piece and there is you.

There is simply no guidance with music composition, so it is incredibly open-ended. But I think you're about the attitude of a practice.

Another issue might be that because it's a hobby I have to try and wedge in between the busier aspects of my life, it might feel that I simply don't have the time to truly dedicate myself to the things I'm passionate about, and that's really where my disappointment lies.

This is a great answer which demonstrates the diversity on HN so well. We don’t all have corporate jobs, and we don’t all need lists.

I use lists, a lot of them. I have Daily, Weekly, and Yearly lists (all on paper). I don't have them to be productive, I have them so that I don't have to remember the things on the lists. I want my head to be empty of all the things I cannot do right now. For me, the best way to achieve that, is to write the things I want to do in the future. That way, they get out of my head and I can focus on my daily business.

For me, the same trick also works for other things that are on my mind. Especially the things that would usually keep me up at night. I write them down, so that they get out of my head.

Maybe you aren’t as interested in Magic as you thought you were. I find that when I’m really into something new, or any project, I will sometimes make a list, but then completely ignore it while I follow various tangents I get taken on. By the time I look at my list again, I can cross off half of it. Some lists are made just to get things out of your head to free the mind up to explore more freely.

In a similar way, at the start of each year I make a list of a bunch of stuff I want to do that year. I don’t use that list to schedule things out and make sure I get them done. In fact, I rarely look at it. The act of making the list puts the ideas in my mind, and when opportunities present themselves, I’m more likely to notice them and say yes to the opportunity. By the end of the year I end up being able to cross off a fair number of them.

When I treat lists as things I must get done, I rarely do them. List making then turns into a form of procrastination. I make the list and feel like I did something, and then I don’t feel like I have to do the thing, because it’s on the list for later. If it’s not a thing I need to do, it won’t get done.

Another thing I try to keep in mind was a technique I saw where you write down everything you could to do for a certain goal, but then look at the list and think about what the actual goal is as pick out the few things on the list that would actually allow you to call the goal done… and actually enjoy doing it. It seems like number one on the list would be finding people to play Magic with regularly and doing that. I imagine that would inform and prompt everything else you might want to do on that topic, and give it purpose.

Todo lists can quickly become wishlists. The initial enthusiasm for a hobby turns into extremely unrealistic grand plans which then lead to disappointment when the lofty goals aren't met.

Try to keep your planning focus on now and next. What will you do today and what's the next step. Don't try to make a year step by step plan because the new knowledge you gain will inevitably change your original plan.

For me, ADHD was a huge part of my over planning problem. I knew I had issues finishing things, so I thought time management books and todolists would help. They did not. If you feel inhibited by your lack of focus and ability to do things then don't hesitate to get checked out by a professional.

It's not really the list, but the "grindset" meanings you've assigned to it. Here's an example of two contrasting approaches to organizing yourself, not to Magic but to learning art:

1. Open up Youtube, search "art tutorial", sign up for the first course that looks good, fill up a spreadsheet with tasks like "learn anatomy", and start setting your alarm earlier.

2. Create a "arts station" in your room. It has a lamp, a drawing board, a bookstand, some books that were recommended when you shopped around, some art supplies you wanted to try, and various bins and folders to store things.

I think nearly everyone will prefer 2, if they take a moment to consider it. The method of 1 is totally focused on achieving a "competitive artist identity" - the student most likely wants to know how to be a "real" or "normal" artist and if they are "good enough" yet. The intense structure and schedule makes it performative - you can be Seen working hard at your art. You are going to be out there on social media chasing those likes and follows.

But the method of 2 is more ambiguous: you've created an investment in a place you can go to and explore as you wish, and which is self-contained: it does not compromise your comfort, and therefore is likely to give you a good feeling when you return to it. You took the time to purchase materials that are, even if they are not perfect, came with good recommendations. You did not rush to attach yourself to a specific instructor, which might lead you down some alleys that slow down learning, but also lets you assert yourself every step of the way: you are likely to intrinsically value the act of study, versus showing the results to someone. It might become a hobby that you can't find time to pursue seriously, but it won't burn you out either.

If you want to feel good about something you do, try to make it a good space that you want to return to. I think it really is that simple, and it applies to all kinds of spaces big and small, whether it's what you're wearing at the moment, or how you organize your digital life, or the events you attend or help host.

This is not to sound contrarian, but I genuinely believe and have had the exact opposite experience to everything you describe.

Method 1 is preferred for me, because it's actually going out there and "doing it". It makes me focused.

Method 2 is where I spiral. Because it's ambiguous, because it's safe, instead of actually making art, I continue just improving the art station. I stall. I go into a kind of "gathering" mindset where I just collect and collect and collect (also known as GAS, gear acquisition syndrome) and I never actually end up making anything.

But I think there is some truth in what you're saying. I think what's missing for me is that feeling of "comfort". Instead, I get a feeling of anxiety when I approach art, but I'm not exactly sure why.

It's actually for this reason why I couldn't continue drawing as a hobby. It would just make me feel incredibly anxious, like I had to force myself to do it. Any literature or advice on this would be fantastic.

If you weren’t enjoying drawing why would you keep it up as a hobby anyway? Explore options for hobbies and stick with the ones you do find fun and drop the others-that’s totally fine! If you love working on organisational tasks - try that as a hobby, Marie Kondo your life

Because I did enjoy drawing in the beginning. It was my approach which made it anxiety-inducing over time.

Tentatively, have you tried commit-by-commit?

You come up with a project, and if it can be expressed in computation, complete each step with a merge to mainline. You only create the story after you've finished it.

Then you never have lists; you only have the journey ahead, and a logbook of past travels.

You never have anything pending, because you surmounted every challenge (or are stuck on the current one). Then, you know where last left it.

I'm using a similar method. Have a single goal for each day. That is the "commit" for the day. If you achieve it it's fine, if not just choose a new goal for the next day and try again.

Sometimes I don't achieve the goal but still choose a new goal for the next day. If time passes you learn something new or things change and your former goal is not important anymore. If the goal is on a list you still have to achieve it because it's on your list.

I think I get the sentiment of what you're saying, but I'm not sure what it would look in practice.

For example, how would that apply to learning a card game like Magic?

What did you do to learn Magic?

Magic is a complex game, but a game regardless. If you feel learning is overwhelming, just play.

The big issue with Magic (for me) is planning how to spend all my mana, calculating which cards to play in which order, and then--I forget. The entire thinking dissipates into thin air!

This after taking 15 minutes for a turn really convinced me I need to train my brain to handle stacks and to memorize the cards.

Even a spreadsheet where I can input mana pool and current hand (click, click, click to select), which generates what can be done (maximal allocation) would be neat (for non-tournament play).

Hm, so for that, I think find the "process loop." That is, the equivalent of the edit-compile-test cycle for Magic.

For example, first choose your domain scope: a thematic deck, super-crunchy probabilities, or studying a pro former deck?

And then create a deck. That's the edit step.

From here, try shuffling and drawing different initial hands. This could also be done in a program, so it could be a good chance to code something.

Finally, some way to test the deck by playing online.

Iterate by repeating the cycle, refining the steps, and so on.

Interesting, thank you for that.

What are your thoughts on documentation separate from the activity itself? Do you see it as something useful, or how do you go about approaching that?

It's easiest to document alongside the activity, or keep a journal. Otherwise, it may never get done.

At least with code, the commit and docs let me repeat info twice, but not a straight copy-paste. The commit lets me discuss why vs how and technical details; the docs answer things like

* I forgot everything; how do I onboard myself?

* Common tasks

* Troubleshooting

Preferences vary. I just know I'll forget if I'm not writing it down in the moment.

> And almost in real time, I could see my interest in Magic wane and disappear. Instead of being fun, I began to see Magic as a chore, rather than something I just wanted to do for fun.

You're using the same productivity strategies used for school or work for the sake of something meant to be leisure

The lists or structures aren't bad in themselves, just you're applying them in the wrong place

I think you need goals documented in some fashion to be truly productive.

Maybe not a task list but some list of your goals across days/weeks/months, otherwise you’re just noodling around or putting out fires. Or maybe I just have too much stuff going on at work. :-)

For me, having a Someday/Maybe list is critical. I am not focusing on it every day but I am periodically reviewing it.

I think it depends on what you want to be productive _in_

If you’re a project manager like me, lists are probably a good option.

If you’re an artist like a painter… I’d imagine very different ways to be productive.

When I write code I like to explore problems and features through developing and testing things, no need for lists until I run into enough bugs or ideas I want to pursue that I need to write them down.

Like all forms of success, one does not achieve productivity. One declares it.

Ergo the best way to be productive is to choose a definition of “productivity” that aligns with what you already did or what is easy to do or what you plan to do regardless or etc.

Was this worth your time?

Well you learned something about yourself.

Good luck.

I don't think that structure is the issue. In this case, where you want to preserve creativity and spontaneity, continue to make lists but only refer back to them when you have time to do something and you need ideas.

I think the issue is that I'm incapable of having that relationship with lists.

Kind of like how some people can't help themselves with alcohol, and others are totally fine with it.

Had the same problem. My secret, don’t write it down, keep the list in your mind.

Careful with this. Sometimes we think the risk of keeping something in our mind is that we might forget that thing. The greater risk is that there are other things that we never put into our mind because of the thing we're already keeping in our mind.

You want to remember a list of Pokemon. You memorize the list of Pokemon. You think the risk is that you will forget the list of Pokemon, but with effort you remember the list of Pokemon, risk averted, nothing lost. Except, the real loss was that you never learned a list of MTG cards, because you were too busy holding onto that list of Pokemon, and also you forgot your wife's birthday. (Silly examples, but true principle.)

Fair, there’s just a weird dopamine release that happens once I write it down that makes me not want to do it anymore. But if I keep it in my brain there is a tension to get it out by finishing the task. So it’s like a mental discipline but I totally get your point.

What was your original impetus to start structuring your learning - was it because you felt like your improvement was plateauing, or because you had things you were interested in to keep track of?

I think it began from the moment that I realised that I needed to study in order to become better.

That's when things became more deliberate in terms of focus, and I think in the process of doing that, is when things became more difficult to reason with.

But it's a catch-22. In the case of music, I felt demotivated making music, because it didn't sound like how I wanted to. But then focusing on study also demotivated me, because I wasn't making music and it felt like I was going off into another realm.