I'm very happy with my Glove80. I started with a prototype 3D printed model last year: the creators are friends of mine, and I wrote the LED status display code for them. I also dropped the prototype down a flight of concrete stairs (sorry! It still works though).
I now have a production model with the white clicky keyswitches. Ultra happy with it. I've been using Kinesis Advantage2s for a shade over two decades - the same model DanielDK used for a long time. The Glove80 is simply better. I prefer the clicky keyswitches. Ergonomics are great. It's really repairable - everything is held together with screws (spare parts for my Advantage2s are not available, and the function keys are not repairable). Open firmware so you can make it do wacky stuff if the need arises. Small and light enough for travel - I should get a proper case but it's survived a fair few trips stuffed into my backpack.
Yeah, adaptation to new keyboard layouts is hard. I used a layout that mimicked my old Advantage2 - so I'd paid the cost to learn columnar already. I found the default Glove80 layout was better, but switching meant a month of confusing Ctrl and Shift. All better now!
As a general question to anybody that used the Kinesis Advantage and switched to the Glove80: how's the thumb cluster?
The double-length keys for bk/delete/enter/space allows a lot of vertical travel freedom on the hand. Instead of flexing the fingers I can just move the whole hand down and hit the lower row _very_ comfortably while not having to worry about the thumb at all.
I've mocked a few pieces of paper to advantage with the shape of the glove80 cluster and I really can't decide if that's good or bad. While the inner thumb keys of the advantage are pretty far from the key wells, the most important modifiers are all closer compared to the glove80.
Trying it on the mockup, the glove80 cluster placement forces my hand on a higher position and requires the thumb to stretch more.
I've been looking at the advantage 360 and I don't like the complete removal of the Fn row, while at the same time I also hate the old Fn keys on the advantage. The glove80 layout is really nice, but I find the thumb cluster of the advantage to be pretty darn good.
I wrote about this in one of my articles. I use a Kinesis Advantage 360. It's like the Kinesis Advantage but split. I like it, but there are draw backs. Namely, the clusters are not mirrored across both keyboards.
Left Side
Backspace
Delete
Ctrl
Alt
Home
End
Right
Super Key
Ctrl
Page Up
Page Down
Enter
Space
The keys are easy to hit, but the biggest problem is the space bar. On a typical keyboard the space bar is accessible from either thumb. This makes it so that if you are using the mouse and are playing an FPS, then you can still jump. This is not possible on the Kinesis Advantage withought modifying the keys. I use the Smartset program, and have a profile specifically for games that fixes this, but it might be annoying to some
The second is that fact that there is not print screen key on the advantage. I take a lot of screenshots for work so this is annoying. I've set one of the 4 macro keys to be the key combination I need to make screenshots, but again this required some configuration.
With that being said I still like the keyboard. My hands feel great even after 12 hours of mixed browsing, coding, and writing. My posture is better, and I don't get pain in my vertebrae next to my shoulder blade. But there are definitely things I would change if I was making it from scratch. Maybe in the future I'll Diy a dactyl-manuform^1 which has the perfect switches and layout for me.
Due to the 3D nature, it is very hard to mock up with a few pieces of paper.
One thing to note is that the Glove80 thumb cluster plane is at a very different location and angle, compared to the the Kinesis Advantage thumb cluster plane. In fact the Glove80 thumb cluster plane is much lower and slant down gently (nowhere as much as DM) towards the opposite half. OTOH the KA thumb cluster sits significantly higher than the keywell.
Due to the thumb plane difference, "the glove80 cluster placement forces my hand on a higher position and requires the thumb to stretch more" is not the case in reality for me.
I would definitely reposition the thumb cluster on the KA to be slightly lower (no more than 1cm lower really), however I didn't find this to be a problem for me.
I rest my hands with the pinky/thumb at about 15' (that is, the hand is is not with the palm flat but at about 45" compared to the keyboard). If I extend pinky and thumb, they're naturally on the same plane.
If I could tent the halves though that 1cm of difference would be nice.
On the kinesis I can hit comfortably ctrl+alt + "=" (and pretty much any other key on either half) with thumb+pinky, on both halves. Holding shift is also entirely possible with pinky or ring, even in combination with ctrl/alt/ctrl+alt and while typing with the remaining 3 fingers.
Seems a stupid thing to do when written, and maybe it is, but hey .. emacs, and I'm doing it with ease actually. I normally chord the modifiers with one hand and type with the other, but if there's a weird combination I'll just do it with a single hand too.
I could definitely 3d-print an entire glove80 mock if I found a model.
For a long time I've been pondering about just 3d-printing a modified dacytl to fit my own preferences, but it's one of those things I wish to just pay for, have some QC without wasting time, and be done.
I find the bottom row easy to hit but find the top rows are awkwardly placed. I've got round this by using the top row as toggles for the momentary layers on the bottom row keys, so it's fine. I wouldn't want to press them as part of normal typing personally.
I had severe problems with RSI many years ago, to the point where I thought I had to give up programming alltogether. I also got an ergonomic keyboard, which helped, and an argonomic pen-like mouse. However, I would say that even more important in getting rid of my problems was the use of a break program. It reminds me to take regular breaks, and prompts me to to stretches throuhgout the day. The combination of these things meant that I recovered completely from my problems.
As someone who sits in front of computers way above the average and never had any issues with eyes or hands (while others my age had issues there) I think this is the key:
Try to get into the habit to stretch your wrists/fingers when you are not using them and try to do the same thing with your eyes (eyes are muscles too), by e.g. focusing onto something far away, rolling your eyes, etc.
If you are of the type that gets lost in work some reminder can help, but I think it is better to form habits of using thinking breaks to do the stretching. Nobody types regularily for 3 hours straight without interrupting to think at least for a bit once every few minutes. If you use these breaks to stretch, you will be fine.
Ultimately a person with good habits will be able to work healthy with seemingly unergonomic setups, while a person with bad habits will be able to use even the most ergonomic setup in unhealthy ways.
Everybody knows that collegue who has that incredibly expensive ergonomic chair and sits on it like a bored prototypical teenager. Habits will always trump tools, unless your tools are so incredibly bad, it will be self evident that they are.
Curiously, unlike many, my wrists and fingers have been fine but I have tight/frozen shoulder and neck issues. Keeping the UHK halves apart and Magic Trackpad in the middle has probably been helpful, I can’t say yet.
Sounds like an issue with chair/desk height and/or monitor height. Anyways there are stretches and exercises that you can do that target that neck and shoulder portions specifically.
If you are otherwise healthty, doing those exercises 15 to 30 minutes per day will have you pain gone in a week.
And if you get a feeling for which muscles they are targeting you might be able to find variations of those stretches that you can do inbetween while sitring at your computer.
I developed shoulder pain because my chair armrest was too high so was propping my shoulder up ever so slightly.
It took me a while to figure out, and my pain went away quite quickly once I’d understood the problem.
More recently, someone took my chair and moved the head rest by a few centimeters. This pushed my head forward a bit - bam ! Neck pain.
You might want to check your chair/posture ( or it might be unrelated).
When I (or to be more precise, when a colleague I was trying to pair program with) used them, these programs infuriated me to no end. Just when I was on to something, I got smacked in the face with a modal dialog.
Perhaps things have improved over the years, but I could not imagine a user interface that would cater to both my physical and mental well-being.
It's also my experience that break reminders prevent wrist pain. For macOS, I recommend Time Out. Actively maintained, with all the options you'd want.
I'm a huge fan of the Goldtouch V1 keyboard. I have been using it along with their fantastic pads my entire career. I have accumulated a surplus of these keyboards as I intend to use them until I'm unable to type.
I discovered them when I started my first job at HP-UX in Cupertino, CA and a bunch of people there were using them.
I also switched to Dvorak a few years before than.
I don't like their V2 offering, as an emacs user the caps lock key is gimped and I don't need the windows key near the ctrl / alt keys.
How much do you type a day to have problems? I have never felt limited by my typing speed or comfort during my career, but I understand that different people might have different workflows.
For me it’s thinking, writing a few lines and start thinking again.
One programmer guy I know who had RSI problems was actually writing way too much and overly verbose code and also literally banged on the keys instead of pressing them.
I think its just genetics, some people are more inclined to experience RSI due to structure of wrists. I'm 22 and I started experiencing wrist pain during college and found that split keyboards are the solution for me to be able to do my work without pain.
I'm 46, programming since I was 6 years old and started having wrist and even lower-arm pain ~2-3 years ago.
Even the tips of my fingers hurt sometimes.
I never would have imagined I will have such problems...
It's probably the combination of many factors, probably age mostly, but I'm also experimenting with Emacs, with Ctrl being on Caps-Lock and I think that has triggered the problem. Thumb-tip pain is probably from the SpaceFn layout, but the other finger-tips, no idea.
My main keyboard is a Leopold FC M660 with Cherry blues, but IIRC the problems has already started on a stock 60% Cherry MX with linear red switches.
I've also experimented with vegetarian diet for 11 months, which fucked up my guts and ass, plus I always felt super tired, then a beef + potato only diet for 6 months, but that made my joints hurt. Pretty much caused gout, which is also supposed to be worsened by drinking high-fat milk, which I do drink about a liter a day, like I did most of my life. But then the problems has slowly subsided. Not sure what has changed though; I only got older...
While I have not used a Penclic mouse, I am pretty sure that it is inferior to using a small Wacom Intuos graphic tablet instead of a mouse, like I do.
The tablet is no larger than a traditional mouse pad, it is even somewhat smaller.
The stylus, i.e. the pen, is much lighter than any pen-like mouse can be, and it has better resolution and accuracy. Because the pen works contactless and it is very light, you can move it very fast. You can point to any location on the screen faster than with anything else.
Because the pen is so light, I usually retain it between my fingers while I am touch typing, without noticing that I still keep it, which shortens a lot the transitions between typing and using the graphic pointer. I leave the pen on the tablet only before starting to type a long text.
The tablet is switched to "relative" mode at startup, so it behaves as an ordinary mouse. I use it under Linux, where it has excellent support.
The equivalent of the mouse buttons is configurable. I have chosen to touch the tablet with the pen for left click, and to use the two thumb buttons for right click and for double left click.
After I have begun to use a graphic tablet instead of a mouse, trackball, trackpoint or touchpad a couple of years ago, my only regret is that I have not thought to try this earlier, because at least for me it is much more comfortable than the alternatives, and it is also much more precise, being easy to use for drawings or signatures.
My .bashrc script (when logging on, which is checked by the fact that no GUI session is running) starts X Window (actually it starts an XFCE session, because that is what I use), then it remaps the keyboard to a custom Dvorak variant and it configures Wacom thus:
The line that discovers WACOM_ID is necessary because the Wacom device driver does not always use the same device numbers, even when nothing has been inserted or extracted in or from the USB ports. Moreover, even the Wacom subdevices are not always listed in the same order, hence the need to use grep for row select.
There are many other ways to execute a script on startup, where you can add these lines.
The acceleration of the Wacom mouse cursor is configured in the standard desktop settings.
"button +3 " means that the associated action is right click.
"button +1 -1 +1 -1 " means that the associated action is left double click.
I have left the default action for touching the tablet with the pen, which is left click. Selection by pointing and touching is even more natural than with a mouse or other alternatives.
I don't understand the curved keyboard wells as present on the Glove80 and Kinesis Advantage keyboards. For most keys on a flat keyboard I type not by bending the finger joints and then punching the keys with the tips of my fingers by straightening my fingers. Instead, I press the keys by largely swinging the whole finger up and down and typing with the pads on the distal phalanx of the fingers.
This is hard to explain but my experience with my Kinesis Advantage is that the keys above the home row and especially the function keys (really just function buttons) are too high and are oriented with the faces of these keys too angled towards my hands (i.e. the normal vector from the top of the keycaps are angled at perhaps 45 degrees from vertical). So on an "ordinary" keyboard, like a laptop keyboard, the surface of the keycaps are roughly parallel to the surface of the laptop keyboard. On such an ordinary keyboard it is quite easy to press the number keys and function keys without a lot of finger flexing, while on the Kinesis Advantage I feel like I am curling my fingers then lifting my whole hand and then straightening my fingers to kind of punch the keys like one would press a button mounted on a wall. (Does this elaborate explanation even make sense or am I just being picky?)
I greatly prefer typing on the Kinesis Gaming Keyboard. These feel better than using welled keyboards to me.
This is my experience with the Glove80 and the Maltron. I don't have any reason to use the function keys, but I found the number keys needed an awkward prod. Consciously keeping my palm on the rests mitigated the problem to some degree, but I find that an unnatural position, possibly because I am a pianist and keep my wrists a bit higher. Stepped rather than bowled keyboards might help, but I prefer a flat keyboard, or one that is tilted slightly away from me. This is not to say that other people will not like the Glove80, and it is certainly well made.
I haven't been following ergonomic keyboards for awhile, but went pretty deep a few years ago back when the Dactyl Manuform and Kinesis were the only names in town.
So seeing the Glove80, I was excited to see a new "mass-manufactured" entrant in the space, since dactyl manuforms have to be 3d-printed and handwired, thus meaning they're hard to come by and quite expensive.
The glove80 looks interesting, however at $400 it's not much cheaper than handmade dactyls (https://bastardkb.com/product/scylla-prebuilt-preorder-2/). So if I were purchasing another one, I'd probably still go for a dactyl, as there's more community history/support, and hand-built build quality might be higher.
If an injection molded + flexible PCB mass manufacturer for these curved keywell ergonomic keyboards could release something for around $200, then the space might really heat up!
I think one of the issues is that the key wells need to hand soldered, which increases the cost per unit.
You can find well-priced Glove80s sometimes. I was particularly lucky and found one for 150 Euro. But for the other, the 360 Euro was well spent!
At any rate, people spend thousands on a MacBook, but for a product that probably lasts longer and might save your job long-term, we suddenly practice extreme austerity. When I had my brush with wrist pain, I realized that the money spent on a good keyboard, chair, and desk is nothing compared to the income lost if I can’t work until I’m retiring.
Already soldered 2 dactyl manuforms (one for home and one for work), not going to solder another one until one breaks :)
Though honestly if it broke, I'd probably just pay for the next one, not worth the labor (literally hundreds of solder points and hand wiring over like 30 hours). I did it mostly to learn about soldering/electronics and thought it would be fun.
The careful hand wiring is the laborious part, which the flexible PCB seems to solve. So I'd imagine it would take a 30 hour task down to 2 hours?
I have it. The community is active in Discord. They also have a section for buying/selling Glove80's from users and getting mods done. The firmware is ZMK and lots of configuration options. I was glad to have bought this over any Dactyl. The physical key layout is amazing. The Red Pro switches even better than I expected coming from C MX Reds. The low profile is also great and I prefer it over standard height keys. It met my expectation. Checkout Ben Frain on YouTube since he has the Glove80, Moonlander, Kinesis Advantage 360 and a Dactyl. A customized to your hand Dactyl w/ low profile low force linear switches would be enticing.
I have a Scylla and a Skeletyl from BastardKb (the site linked above). The Skeletyl is a 3x5 keyboard with three thumb keys each hand, and I love the thumb clusters on it. Works perfectly with Miryoku and each key is very comfortable to press.
My thumb rests at close to neutral position on Glove80 as well, at least compared with Advantage. I like that I can press thumb keys more by moving my arm slightly without having to contract my thumb tendons whereas Dactyl is more of a claw grip.
I love my glove80. Went from 110 WPM to about 10 the first day, practiced a few hours and got to ~60 in a day or two. After a week or two I could comfortably program with it without feeling slowed down.
I have no more pain in my left arm after a work day, and I feel like it’s easier to sit with a proper posture.
I'm close to 50yo so i blame my slow uptake on that but I'm finally close to my original typing speed now (also about 110) after a month on the glove80. I'm not quite convinced by it yet as a pragmatic tool but I'm enjoying the hell out of it as something new and interesting. Kind of like driving stick. Had to do a bit of remapping to get it to be usable, as i use the super key a lot for my window manager.
Flipped it with the layer key so it is on the left instead of right. I often hold down the super key with a right-handed mouse operation to move and resize floating windows.
I wonder if all those "ergonomic" designs really aim at the right corner of the solution space. What about targetted exercise of involved muscle groups and regular breaks to stretch and relax the tendons/joints/muscles/...?
I mean, with our societies sedentary life style, surely exacerbated by programmers sitting for 10+ hours a day, I'm a bit doubtful that moving even less is the answer. What about doing a few simple exercises regularly in breaks and evaluate? Obviously the standard Apple keyboard has terrible ergonomics, but something slightly more reasonable could already do the trick..
While ergonomic keyboards are big part of some peoples fight against RSI, for many more using them is about comfort. After you get used to having tilted keyboard going back to normal one just feels tight and uncomfortable.
Also for me big part about customizing your tools is exactly that - you get to customize your tools. I type professionally so it is insane to me when I see my colleagues working on some random laptop keyboard and screen day after day when they could spend couple hundred bucks on a nice quality keyboard and large screen or two and make their work more enjoyable.
Sometimes switching positions dynamically is less straining than staying in the same (ergonomic) position forever, which is why most ergonomic chairs are about dynamic sitting.
But no amount of dynamic sitting and no ergonomic chair will make the bad influence of sitting go away — this can only be dealt with excercise, breaks and stretching. And every ergonomic chair can be misused. A person with good habits can sit healthy on a rock, a person with bad habits can sit unhealthy on a custom made ergonomic chair.
The same is true for the hands. As a life-long multi-instrumentalist with trained hands and fingers I could totally see someone with a laptop and the right habits ultimatly acting healthier as someone with the wrong habits and the best ergonomic keyboard that exists for them.
And this is the truth: Everything that involves the human motor system is never just about the objects we interact with, but always also to a major degree how we interact with them. My grand-grandmother that worked in her garden with 109 didn't have any ergonomic tools (as they didn't exist), but all the right habits. Habits are always more important than tools.
"Insane"? I type professionally too. On my laptop, in a myriad different settings. Sometimes in a coffee shop, sometimes on a quiet bench in a hallway, sometimes at home on my sofa, my kitchen table, and sometimes at my desk. I enjoy every minute of it and I'm having a blast. 11 years and counting.
If it doesn't work for you then it doesn't mean it won't for anybody else. It's surely not "insane".
I worked for 14 years, coding almost every day, before I started feeling pain in my arms. Took quite a while to get better. Not saying it will happen to you (people are different), but in my case I think the problems built up over years of working with poor ergonomics. My best advice is to take it seriously if you do start feeling any pain.
All I read is: "I have been a professional carpenter for a decade and sharp knife is all I use. I use it for floors, chairs, tables, and all. If it doesn't work for you then don't use it"
Of course I can work with a tiny laptop screen and keyboard, but I choose to actually have a pleasurable experience when I work.
Maybe laptop and tiny screen is pleasurable to them? I’m currently on a big 4K monitor with external keyboard and all that and I’ll probably go back coding on a laptop because for some reason the more compact experience is a lot more enjoyable for me. We’re all different after all and that’s ok
I'm mid-50, thanks for asking. I've had a military carreer before doing more desk type of work.
This was about keyboards, but sure, we can talk about screen real etate too. It can be great, but it can introduce more distractions too. Having a single laptop screen in front of you makes you focus on what matters most. Those chat and mail windows can stay hidden until I need them and opt to get distracted. Others may see that differently, and that's ok.
Is it possible you've taken more from that single word than was intended?
GP said "insane to me". I understood this as a colloquial expression of disbelief or surprise rather than an actual accusation of insanity.
E.g. I might say it's insane to me that anyone likes Brussels sprouts. The state of mind of someone who could hold such a position is so alien to me as to be comparable to insanity.
Maybe, but when they sit next to me for 8 hours that argument kind a falls off.
I am sure there are exceptions to this, but from my experience these people also aren’t nearly as productive as people who have usable, comfortable setups
It's not either or. I switched to ErgoDox after I broke my wrist years ago. Even with surgery, OT and exercise, regular keyboards don't feel comfortable anymore for more than a few minutes at a time. (I also had to switch my wristwatch to the other hand.)
I'm not sure if taking regular breaks and doing exercises can fully mitigate the RSI and discomfort/pain that drives many to use ergonomic keyboards and input devices.
Personally, my wrists start to hurt after only an hour or two of use of a "normal" keyboard and mouse. It doesn't matter if I've spent the previous 3 months offline doing yoga (getting very thorough full-body movement) or totally absorbed in some computer-y project - "normal" input devices hurt! My shoulders and back are more tolerant, but eventually they start to ache too.
It's likely I didn't take care of myself properly earlier in life, but using a split keyboard and tilted thumb-operated trackball mean I can continue coding without nerve pain.
To be clear, the goal is not exactly to move less - it's to keep the wrists and shoulders in a neutral, less-stressful position.
> Personally, my wrists start to hurt after only an hour or two of use of a "normal" keyboard and mouse.
IME, what has worked for me is to make the interval of the "regular breaks" on the order of one hour. The break isn't much, just get up, grab a glass of water or whatever, moving my arms and wrists a bit, then sit back down.
> To be clear, the goal is not exactly to move less - it's to keep the wrists and shoulders in a neutral, less-stressful position.
I fully agree with this.
The only hardware issue that couldn't be solved with this approach and required a new keyboard was the wrists-angled-up situation imposed by a 2012-era Apple keyboard (don't know if they've evolved since).
I've always refused to type for longer than a few minutes on keyboards that don't at least lay flat on the table. And for the keyboards I use every day (when sitting at my home or work desk) I've insisted on keyboards with a wrist rest and no number pad. I have a TKL one at home, and I think even that may be too large. My "75%" (laptop style, with the arrows under Enter and HOME / END / etc in a column to the right of Enter) is perfect.
That’s a good question. As I get older, I’ve found that I should do all of them: regular exercises, good chair, height-adjustable desk, and a good ergo keyboard.
Even though my wrist issues have disappeared, I wish I could tell the younger me, who could type all day on a grey slab without breaks on a crappy chair, to care about ergonomics and improve along all these dimensions.
The split allows you to open up your shoulders and straight end your wrists. Tenting or tilting does make it even more comfortable because it gets closer to a more vertical (handshake) position. I agree with you that movement, rest, and stretching is key. Staying too long in the same position is not good.
> I wonder if all those "ergonomic" designs really aim at the right corner of the solution space.
I don't think your question comes from the right corner of the problem space to begin with.
If you have a class of products which are linked with health problems in a subset of the population, and another set of problems that mitigate or eliminate said health problems in that subset of the population, then why should we complain about the products that are designed explicitly to protect your health?
And think about it: it your keyboard is causing health problems, why are you exploring solutions that involve perpetuating the root cause of your problem?
The regular standard keyboard hasn’t been a limitation to me in any way, I prefer mechanical keyboards as they feel slightly better but I never felt the desire to try a different layout keyboard. However, Im lucky that I don’t have RSI and that I don’t have to type so much so as to justify the effort of a better setup. So keep in mind, while some seek perfection for their own setup others are looking for a solution to a medical sort of problem, and that usually doesn’t have much to do with doing sports and taking breaks, once RSI becomes a problem, it’s no fun..
That’s the thing, you don’t have issues until you have them. And then you wish that you cared earlier.
In hindsight I with I’d gotten that adjustable desk and (then) Kinesis Advantage ten years ago. But then I thought it’s a waste of money and I’m doing fine with my Apple keyboard.
In hindsight, would it have helped you as well doing targeted exercising?
It's understandable that a tech community immediately turns to tech as a solution to problems, but it may not be the best solution, or at least not the only one available.
I have been doing targeted exercising for a longer period. It helped, but didn't solve my issues.
I believe in a multi-faceted approach. Exercises are great, even necessary. But avoiding pronation in the other 55 minutes of an hour, letting the blood flow, is also useful.
I have not suggested that. Quite the opposite. Let's not make gadgets be the only thing that matters, even though it may be more fun to geek out on key alignment.
You are fighting a strawman. No one said that gadgets are the only thing that matters. Most people who had hand/arm issues and use ergo keyboards will tell you to: go to a doctor first, then get a good chair and desk, do regular exercises, and maybe then get an ergo keyboard.
I have been in the MoErgo Discord for a while. When someone new comes in looking to buy a keyboard because they have wrist/hand/arm pains, the first advise consistently: go see a doctor.
I use a Glove80 keyboard, and even after 4 months I'm not back to my normal typing speed! This has cost me a fair bit of productivity, and was stressful at times. Almost feeling like I'd suffered a bit of brain damage, where I could picture what I wanted to do, but be unable to type it out.
Having the modifier keys in the thumb cluster feels a lot less awkward than using my left-hand little finger at odd angles. And I like the fit and finish and customisation.
Overall though, I think I would have been better served by a regular qwerty, not columnar, split keyboard. Maybe my middleaged brain ain't plastic enough any more.
<small>Plus I think the benefits of columnar are oversold. If I naturally curl my fingers in and out, they kinda fan in and out, rather move in parallel straight lines. And the right hand side of a regular keyboard matches that movement pretty well. The left hand side is backwards of course.
These differences between people are really interesting. When I switched from a traditional keyboard to a flat column stagger keyboard, I did 15-30 minutes of exercises a day and after a week I was pretty much at my regular speed. Going from a flat column stagger keyboard to a Kinesis Advantage took me a few hours of adjustment at most. And from the Advantage to the Glove80 no adjustment at all.
I type Colemak-DH, but I am experimenting on the side with letter on thumb layouts. Over the past few weeks, I have tried rsthd, Maltron, and now aptmak (30 key variant). With aptmak I am at 40 WPM after ~5 days. I still type Colemak-DH during the workday at my regular speed, I can switch to a typing tutor and type aptmak at that speed again after two minutes or so (even though I have space on the other hand).
I am sorry for all those people for which this is a really long painful process. I am sure age is a factor, but I am also past 40, so it's definitely not the only factor.
Keep practicing! When I switched to KA2 I could not type with the same speed for months. I've also decided to switch from QWERTY to Colemak at the same time - it did not improve the situation.
But I am fine now, have a KA2 @work, Model 100 @home and have no problems switching between them whatsoever on a daily basis. I've also ordered Glove80 and I am sure it will be fine. What I have some problems with, are those rare occasions where I travel and have to use my notebook's keyboard. Everything - staggered layout, lack of thumb cluster, no split, scissor switches - is just a source of huge discomfort.
I couldn't type blind for 30+ years. Never bothered to learn it.
Then I used https://www.keybr.com/ a couple of times, less than an hour in total and I was able to touch-type afterwards at an acceptable speed and error rate.
So when I'm experimenting with a new keyboard of key layout, I always practice on keybr.com 1st, because it tremendously speeds up the getting-used-to period!
I tried a columnar layout for a while (ergo dox kit if I recall) and gave up because when I was in meetings on my laptop keyboard I made so many typos. The worst was hitting Enter on my laptop when I was aiming for apostrophe. So many unintentionally sent IMs.
FWIW, I really can't do ortholinear. Maybe it's similar for you? I think it's just one of those things where you don't know until you try for a while. It's apparently right for some!
I highly recommend low profile switches for those who haven't tried them. They weren't really available in many models until recently and they're a big step up from standard switches if you're more used to laptops.
> they're a big step up from standard switches if you're more used to laptops
In what way? I was contemplating a keyboard with mechanical low profile switches. One of the reasons was that I could easily remap the keys without having to buy new keycaps, since they all have the same profile, and for some reason, every manufacturer insists on their own home / en / pg up / pg dn layout (I'm looking exclusively at "75%" and similar layouts, which put those keys in a column).
But I'm hesitant because I've trained myself to not bottom out when I type with my regular mechanical keyboards, and my fingers enjoy the lack of abrupt stop at the bottom.
One switch I've not seen mentioned here yet is the Kailh Sunset switch [0], developed in collaboration with Darryl from lowprokb.ca. It is my favourite low profile switch, and the closest in feel to my X220-and-previous-generation Thinkpad keyboards.
Low profile switches are not compatible with MX keyboards, because all the dimensions are different. There are “mid profile” switches made by GMTX and perhaps others, which can be swapped into an MX board. (The Kailh mid-profile switches are not MX compatible.) You might have to be careful about keycap compatibility, to avoid longer caps that might bottom out on the switch plate.
I appreciate the nerdy customization of this in a way, but every time an ergo keyboard comes to the front page I'm a little disappointed that it's way too niche, and in this case also seemingly a bit unwieldy and stationary.
I've really come to love the now discontinued Sculpt series, despite their flaws, and wish someone would just come along and produce that again with some minor iterations; fix the dongle problems, increase durability, sell it as just the keyboard, and maybe allow it to fold in half for increased portability. I'm glad there are tweakable keyboards, but I never want to do that, I just want speed, confort, versatility, familiarity, and minimal size. It would be neat to order one with custom superficial elements though. I know the Sculpt isn't loved by everyone, and maybe it's my narrow shoulders, long arms, short torso, and alien-like fingers that make it my favorite, but damn I like it. A mac version would also be cool, but I get by.
I use it at home, and when I'm working at a cafe for variety, I can just toss it in my backpack along with the dongle (that frustratingly doesn't have a dedicated compartment in the idiotic mouse+keyboard package I'm forced to buy it in) and then use it on my lap so I can deal with the odd chair to table height ratios of coffee shops.
I’ve haven’t tried the glove80 but suspect I won’t like it because it doesn’t do QWERTY and the columnar layout may not work for me.
However over the years I’ve purchased many ergo kbs: ergo dox, kinesis and variants, and I just could not get into any of those.
Until I got the UHK (Ultimate Hacking Keyboard) , and I absolutely love it. It retains the QWERTY + regular (staggered?) layout, has split/angled halves, and thumb clusters, all of which can be programmed with an excellent software.
Ortholinear is what you are referring to and it is absolutely worth it to learn. Staggered keyboards don’t make sense anymore - the originally reason keys were staggered was because the bars could not physically overlap - and it is far more natural to type only moving each finger along two axis
With the UHK I am already having difficulty typing directly on my MacBook. With the ortholinear this might only make switching back and forth harder. But it is intriguing.
Or easier. I have switched to column stagger pretty quickly after going to ergo keyboards and I don't have trouble typing on my MacBook. I only dread it now :).
I personally use an ergodox I built, and I will never type fast like I can on a staggered layout. I also had to fix a typing mistake (I typed c with my index on staggered, and it became 'b')
In the end it's the split that saved my wrists. I believe everyone should type on one, whatever the model.
Anecdotally, I did not have too much of an issue switching to a columnar layout - I would give it a shot if you were interested.
I've been using a Moonlander for about a year. I feel like it took at most a week for me to adjust and to attain my current typing speed. I probably type a little slower on it (maybe less accurately too), but my rate is passable (80-100 WPM). I've recently tried a Kinesis Advantage 2 for a few weeks and did not find that adjusting to it was very difficult.
Maybe I'm the odd one out here. Edit: having seen other comments here, I suspect I might be. Apologies for making switching seem trivial.
I had an Ergodox before and I like finally having function rows back, and the thumb cluster on this is at a nicer angle than both the Ergodox and Moonlander.
The wells are pretty easy to get used to and in general I think it’s just a really well made product.
I was looking forward to the Kinesis Advantage360 Pro, since it solves some of the issues with the Advantage2. It supports three different tenting angles and is a truly split keyboard. However, the Advantage360 Pro was quite a disappointment. The keyboard, which is a hefty 650 Euro, was plagued with Bluetooth issues, the Gateron Brown switches were tiring for me, and Kinesis didn’t improve the thumb cluster. I switched back to my Advantage2 after a while and the 360 Pro was collecting dust.
I got a Kinesis Advantage 360 through Upgrade Keyboards: https://upgradekeyboards.com/collections/kinesis-advantage36... with Box White switches, and it's been great. Expensive, yes, but great. I got the wired version for the usual reasons ("he who knows wireless, chooses wired"). YMMV. I also like the brown switches but like speed switches or box whites better.
The bluetooth issues are sort of resolved with the 3.0 firmware, but the previous firmware versions were pretty awful in scenarios where you turn the keyboards off and the pairing between halves becomes an absolute nightmare.
With that being said, while Kinesis' own firmware for their keyboards (SmartSet) has gotten a lot better over the years, it still doesn't really come close to ZMK or QMK. To me the functionality of the firmware trumps the occasional reliability issues of the bluetooth.
I just hate that they pushed all customization to a third party. I got another set of blank PCBs for my Kinesis Advantage 2 by emailing Kinesis support (which is fantastic, by the way) and paying roughly 100 bucks for them. Now they send you to upgradekeyboards who are expensive and have massive lead times when I just want some PCBs so I can replace the gateron browns in my keyboard without having to desolder everything.
Are they solved? I still see a lot of reports of people with issues with ZMK 3 on the 360 Pro. Someone who does switch replacements for the KA2/360 said that there is a design error in the 360 Pro, where on one of the halves the key well flex cable runs through the Bluetooth antenna clearance area. This also explains the high variance: how much the issue affects you depends on how the flex cable happens to be oriented in your unit.
But if the connectivity issues are indeed caused by this, the only real solution is a new hardware revision.
Have tried both, cannot go back to kinesis. Layouts seem very similar, but glove has home/end and pgup/pgdown keys in the main part, so thumb cluster has two alt keys and shift keys.
I cannot overstate how much better having shift keys on thumb cluster is.
I wish I had seen this earlier. Probably a few hours before seeing this on HN I bought a Kinesis Advantage 360 from an EU retailer for nearly 700 euros (I got the palm/wrist rests).
And I am still waiting on a Moonlander to try out as well but DHL customs is being difficult.
I really do think this keyboard is interesting. My only concern is why not use the more mainstream cherry mx mechanism?
The reason is that mx switches together with keywell make a keyboard quit high, which is causing issues - you need either a desk which can go quite low, or a chair and monitor stands which can be adjusted quite high for an ergonomic position. I have a KA2 and Model100 and yes, it is a problem if you do not have adjustable desks. Choc switches allow to keep the profile low.
That makes sense. I will try out the moonlander and the kenesis and i might pick this up as well if i return both of the others. It's cheaper so that's awesome.
Can someone who owns a Glove80 do a sound demonstration video please? Ive looked on youtube and there is not much out there. One of the main reasons I couldn’t get adjusted to using the Ergodox EZ was due to how it sounds.
I might do that. I have Cherry MX Browns. I bought case foam and pcb foam for dampening. Could only install the pcb foam since it wouldn’t close with both. It didn’t make much of a difference. I do have a desk pad but I tent the keeb
Browns (and Clears, my preference) are pretty darn loud in my experience despite being only tactile and not also clicky. You can help with O-rings, but I agree with the above commenter that silent switches are probably an ideal solution. Well, assuming they meant to imply that.
I was using the Kinesis Advantage 2 (KA2) for the longest while 8+ years now, and then recently upgraded to the Kinesis Advantage 360 and the KA2 was still hands down the best keyboard that I used. I still switch between the KA2 and KA360 but the KA360 is as mentioned plagued with so many issues, from the bluetooth connection issues all the way to setting the keymap using the ZMK software. I would still recommend the KA2 for most users and also the best bang for the buck if you can get one used or refurbished. The split also doesn't make as big of a difference as it seemed at least from my proportions.
It looks neat, though it always seems strange to me when an ergonomic setup involves picking up one of your hands and moving it to the side often to use a separate mouse or keyboard. Is there not a better place to put it, integrated or slightly above or in the middle etc, to avoid having to change hand position all the time?
Go to https://kbd.news/search/ and search for “trackball” to get some inspiration. Personally I would like to try something like the Orbyl but haven’t had the time to build one yet.
if you have kinesis advantage, just stick magic trackpad in the middle (it fits nicely). I wouldn't mind mushroom like on ibm thinkpads or optical trackpad like on blackberry in the middle of keyboard, but oh well
This looked so good until I saw it requires switches to be soldered (by them or you). Hot-swappable switches is a must for me, specially at this price point. I guess my ergodox will have to last a bit longer until a proper replacement is found.
There are a lot of touted ergo features: tenting, concave keywell, l/r split, ortho columns, thumb cluster. Of these, the most important IME is the thumb cluster -- giving more work to your thumbs and taking load off your pinkies.
This led me to HHKB JP layout for 80/20 ergo benefit without having to carry two unwieldy halves of a keyboard when I want portability. Still use Kinesis Advantage 2 at home, but nothing beats the HHKB JP when traveling.
It's bizarre to me that the big spacebar remains a standard feature on keyboards. It would be better for the thumbs to be able to use e.g. backspace, enter, escape, tab.
And unlike those other features, there's no downside to making the spacebar smaller. (The only thing I can think of is some people press with their right thumb instead of their left; but, a 2U spacebar would cover that).
(I'd still much rather have a keyboard that's symmetrical and ortho; although I can at least understand that traditional layouts have such a stay that it's only enthusiasts who would use keyboards with these features).
Same. I’m actually skeptical of some of the claims, particularly in regards to ortholinear/column stagger key arrangements. In particular I feel like this actually makes the layout worse in some situations. For example, consider the `in` bigram in qwerty. It’s one of the most common bigrams in English, and if you switch to most ergo boards, the distance between those keys will _increase_ which will require a bigger stretch for your index and middle finger, and consequently reduce your ergonomics (at least for that bigram).
HHKB JP is very nice in that it has a slightly reduced row stagger, is a single board, and has extra thumb keys which can be remapped to for layers or moving things such as shift or backspace into more comfortable positions.
> I’m actually skeptical of some of the claims, particularly in regards to ortholinear/column stagger key arrangements. In particular I feel like this actually makes the layout worse in some situations. For example, consider the `in` bigram in qwerty.
In different arrangements of keys, some words will be easier to type than others (and some will be more difficult).
e.g. Comparing Dvorak and qwerty. -- With the example 'in', both of these letters are on home row on Dvorak, whereas both letters require reaching with the fingers on qwerty.
I don't think it's worth putting strong weight on any one example.
I'd point to the distances between (on a typical keyboard); between FT should be the same as JY; and between FB should be the same as JN. -- But on the traditional row stagger, these distances are absurdly different.
I find it hard to believe that the best arrangement of alphabetical keys would be asymmetrical.
The fact is that language is itself not symmetrical (consider 5 major vowels vs 21 consonants and semivowels), so really a better solution is to use a keyboard layout that is optimized to fit a physical arrangement of keys. (Side note: I’ve spent the last three years critically thinking about, learning, and designing a few handfuls of keyboard layouts and keyboard layout analyzers/generators. At the moment, the layouts which works best for me are MTGAP and Graphite, both of which work really well in both an ortholinear and rowstagger configuration. (I also used Dvorak for 15 years prior to switching). Though, the layout iceberg goes pretty deep, so if you don’t like the layouts I mention, there are tons of other layouts to pick from).
The only reason I bring up `in` and ignore the rest of the keyboard is because `in` is right up there with `th` in terms of frequency. Worsening it has a significant and noticeable effect IMO. Though, I could also point to another reason which might make ortholinear not ideal for some people. Consider the left middle finger column on qwerty: EDC. E is simultaneously the most common letter, and also combines with basically every other letter (consider typing `decided`). It’s very common for qwerty typists to use alternative fingerings to avoid the same finger sequences. Commonly you’ll see index finger used for D and C. An ortholinear layout used with qwerty moves D and C further away from the index finger, making the alternate fingerings more difficult/cramped/impossible.
Tangentially, something I think works in the glove80’s favor however is the scooped design. While `in` is pushed further apart, I imagine that the curvature of the keyboard in utilizing the 3rd dimension helps reduce this distance somewhat.
EDIT: Here’s a video demonstrating someone using an ortholinear keyboard with qwerty at an impressive 170+ wpm: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HHFK-GbECWA Note, my comments above have to do with ergonomics. At the end of the day, ~~honey badger don’t care~~ people adapt, and can sometimes get incredibly efficient using tools with dubious ergonomic value. Compare that video with my own using MTGAP and you can immediately see a difference in finger movement: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Msebf_zNaxY
Here's a video with a direct comparison (typing same text, video above video) of row-stagger qwerty vs ortho dvorak; both at about the same WPM.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWjgFqy8IE0
It depends. My thumb joints specifically can't bear a lot of action, so all those thumb-cluster ergonomic keyboards are a non-starter for me. Hitting the space bar is about as much as my thumbs can handle.
I bought moonlander some time ago and found the learning process far too frustrating. What's more, I noticed that the more I switched to the new layout, the more I was struggling with more classic ones (primarily laptops and my trusty MS NEK 4000). That was enough for me to shelve the moonlander for now.
How long it takes to fully and comfortably switch, including all the punctuation characters? Did you also struggle with other keyboards?
I only have two kinds of keyboards: a regular 94 key Mechanical Keyboard and the Glove80. My accuracy/speed is now equal on both for QWERTY after 3 weeks. It is confusing to switch between Colemak-DH back to QWERTY on the same keyboard. I'll fix the Glove80 to Colemak-DH and use QWERTY everywhere else.
I had learned touch-typing (for a non-qwerty layout), so using a keyboard where the keys are in columns isn't so difficult.
I suspect it's difficult for the "quick hunt-and-peck", where your fingers can quickly hunt down the keys on the staggered rows, but aren't trained to follow finger-per-column that the classic touch-typing discipline encourages.
> ... including all the punctuation characters
It's actually not so bad. The symbols associated with 0-9 stay in the same positions as you put 0-9. This leaves `, -=, [], /\. You can put [] near (), or in some other way that makes sense; you can put /\ together. ` I tend to have on a pinky finger. -- Rather, I'd say there are ways of arranging the symbols so that it retains what you're familiar with, or has an improved association to it.
> ... the more I was struggling with more classic ones ...
When I was learning a non-qwerty layout, I struggled using either qwerty or dvorak. Eventually, my motor memory was able to sort it out. -- Although, I think using different layouts on the same keyboard is very confusing.
I went through the similar journey with Moonlander. Took me about 3/4 months to be comfortable, with tweaking the layout quite a few times.
I did have some struggling with normal layout after. It sounds silly but after typing almost everyday on monkeytype.com, things (wpm, accuracy, etc) are stable for me.
The learning process is pretty normal, other than that you have a vague idea of where keys are if you're already touch typer, which is to say it's incredibly frustrating... until it's not.
How long it takes probably depends on the person but I'd say if you actually force yourself to use it you'd probably feel comfortable on it in less than a month. To me it wasn't really much of a choice. It was one of many changes I had to make to help deal with RSI.
A lot of people use standard keyboards their entire life without issue. If you're not experiencing issues with a standard keyboard, why make things harder on yourself than necessary?
I went all in. No laptop, no other keyboards. From now on, your only computing devices are desktop computers or two-in-one convertibles (microsoft surface pro). My coworkers don't touch my keyboard, I don't touch their dirty keyboard.
It's a bit easier if you're already typing on a non standard layout, like dvorak, which was my case.
It took me about one week to me productive on an ErgoDox and another week to surpass my original typing speed and accuracy. I created my own layout instead of using the default, based on what was easiest for me to reach and the most common symbols I used.
After a few weeks I could look away from the screen to have a conversation with a coworker while still typing at full speed and accuracy.
For an easier learning curve, consider a regular 75% layout split in two. The only keyboard I know of that uses this is Mistel Barocco MD770, which I’ve been using for two years. I’ve swapped the keycaps to DSA ones.
I know I need one.
I have an Alice layout keyboard (think Microsoft ergonomic keyboard) and it helps but I know a fully ergonomic keyboard that I can tent is in my future eventually.
Anyone have tips on getting up to speed with a new keyboard? My productivity drops dramatically every time I’ve tried it. Last time with a Kinesis FreeStyle and I just wasn’t adjusting fast enough.
I’ll take tips on how to adopt an ergonomic mouse too
Just do it and don't look back. The night I ordered the Glove80, I almost bought an Alice in Amazon but I got the one I really want. Half measures might have given me buyers remorse.
The thing is with Alice you can easily get hot-swappable board with different switches and keycap profiles and it costs less than $200.
While I have been eyeing these "cup" style keyboards for years, I feel very hesitant dropping $400 on a keyboard when my Alice is "fine".
Maybe you are right that Alice is a half measure and going full hog is the way, but I could also be spending $400 on a keyboard and another $100 on shipping on import tax just to end up with a keyboard I don't use.
I did think about it being non-hotswappable but it was a non-factor since I'm optimizing for ergonomics. I already knew I want linear switches and the lower force which was Choc Pro Reds. I don't like the other switch types after trying other keyboards.
For me the first switches I bought felt mushy. You could argue I didn't do my research, but you can end in same place with this Glove, should I get the normal Reds or the Red Pros? Maybe I would like the tactility of the Browns better? Then again what is the point of having a mechanical keyboard without THONC so maybe Whites aren't that bad?
With hot-swap you can just buy a set and if you don't love it you don't need to buy a whole another keyboard.
But I do get that some people know exactly what they want, but I often need couple tries before I get what I like.
With the Kailh Choc switches, I wouldn't bother with anything other than linear. -- The tactile on Kailh choc is very lame; the 'clicky' sounds like insects crawling, and isn't all that satisfying.
It boils down to knowing what you really want and what your priorities are. I owned the same mech keyboard for a decade now. I've only tried other types of switches a handful of times.
But also the most memed by the mechanical keyboard community. Although I do think they are a good compromise for open office use, but personally I prefer more “click/thonk”
I love my Glove80 with Pro Reds at 35 grams. 14 years on Kinesis Advantage and not looking back.
I gave up on ordering KA360 when I heard from several people that even the wired version was as plagued with issues as the Bluetooth one without in house expertise to resolve it, reliant on contractors.
I'm not saying I like it either, but I find that it wasn't hard to get used to. Probably because I use arrow keys a fair deal outside of contexts with vim keybinds so I was forced to adjust.
I've also adjusted to: the Happy Hacking Keyboard diamond-style arrow keys, and the compact-style arrow keys e.g. on laptop keyboards.
Of course the right approach is suggested by the other reply, which is to not be lazy like me (remap keybinds, get vimium, etc.).
I use Kinesis Advantage 2 for work, but I don't use it to play video games. First, it's kind of expensive, and games wear the keyboard very quickly, second: game designers assume a more conventional keyboard layout, so, for example, small function keys are a non-starter for a lot of games. Also, games assume that the player should be able to press keys 6-0 with the same hand they press 1-5 (while holding the mouse in the other hand) -- this doesn't work well with split keyboards.
I would expect the same to be true, more or less for this keyboard. With the exception of function keys being bigger. On the other hand, I'm not sure I'd want function keys to not be very easily distinguishable from the rest. At least, in the case of Kinesis, some of them control keyboard's own macros / remapping. Accidentally hitting those might result in an hour long break trying to reprogram the keyboard to do what it used to do before you fat-fingered it to do something stupid.
Happy with mine with the 35g pro reds, but the real benefit is just being programmable. It has more keys than I need coming from a ferris, but the extra thumb keys give more options for layers. Also the physical number keys make taking down phone numbers while on the phone easier. ZMK can also be built in a github action which makes tweaking the layout easier. Would recommend.
I am in my late thirties and have been developing arthritis in my hands for almost ten years now. I have tried a lot of different ergonomic keyboards including the aforementioned Kinesis Advantage. I was extra hopeful for it, but even after getting through the rather intensive learning process I didn’t find it helped. If anything I think aggravated the problem.
I found myself having to repeatedly bend and unbend my individual fingers to reach keys. This action is particularly painful for me. On a standard keyboard I can maintain roughly continuous finger curl and move my entire arm at the shoulders only slightly extending the finger I wish to use.
I remain largely unconvinced of the benefits of welled keyboards, since they do seem to increase overall wear on individual fingers.
The solution I found that has actually helped the most is simply using a keyboard with the lowest pressure mushiest rubber domes. For me that has been a keyboard I already owned, a Sun Type 7
I’m probably going to get the Glove80 depending on if I like the switches more, but I really wish that there was one ergonomic keyboard that had 2.5ghz wireless connectivity instead of Bluetooth. I actually use these keyboards for gaming, and adding 10ms of latency is fine for typing but absolutely unsuitable, so I will have to keep it wired
The large thumb keys of the Kinesis Advantage Keyboards (writing on one of them) can be pressed without moving the hands at all, because of their "loose fit". They probably work very well for a large range of hands sizes. I've programmed my layout so that the thumb keys are (from left to right) mod1, ctrl, return, space. The right ones with mod1 delete and backspace. On the home row (with mod1) arrow keys, alt, shift, ... . So the large thumb keys are absolute essential in my layout. And 4 of them are enough due to using one of them as mod1. I don't use the regular sized keys in the cluster at all.
I can't imaging going back to a none curved, none orthogonal keyboard.
Anyway, the Glove80 is still really interesting, esp. the various switches and the more affordable price.
These types of design look awesome, keyboard should be split and it should reflect the physical difference in finger length etc, the only thing missing is one (or two?) tracking points for mouse movements without moving your hand, are there keyboards like that?
I use the Moonlander with a layout that doesn't deviate much from the standard Mac keyboard. Even though I sacrifice a little bit of single keypress magics that I can do on my Moonlander, it enables me to switch more easily to my laptop keyboard on the go.
Got excited about the function keys but unfortunately the Glove80 isn't a replacement for my Kinesis Advantage. I really dislike a battery powered keyboard, plugging in a cable into my laptop in the morning is something that never bothered me. However, having a failing keyboard/mouse in the middle of some work really annoys me.
Maybe I am wrong but aren't two movable parts a bit annoying as well? My keyboard gets moved on my desk quite a bit and repositioning two moving parts sounds quite tedious...
However, having a failing keyboard/mouse in the middle of some work really annoys me.
Do you mean failing because the battery is empty? Why not hook it up then and power it through USB? There are handy split cables with which you can hook up both halves in one go. Some people even disconnect the batteries.
Maybe I am wrong but aren't two movable parts a bit annoying as well? My keyboard gets moved on my desk quite a bit and repositioning two moving parts sounds quite tedious...
Hasn't been an issue for me. But you could always fix the distance in some way (3D printed tool, measure the distance and cut out some plastic/papes, etc.). Personally I just put my arms how I find them comfortable and then position the halves to align with that. Takes maybe five seconds.
Compared to the Advantage2, I use a slightly wider separation distance, so it's more comfortable (though the KA2 distance was still ok-ish for me).
KPrepublic have a tester that includes all four of the Glove80 switches (Brown, White, Red, Red Pro) [0] and also a cheaper one that excludes the Red Pro [1]. (I ordered the cheaper one after reading the review.)
a sidenote: I did use a switchtester a friend lent me and thought I had found my favorite switch only to realize, that typing on a switch-tester is vastly different to typing an actual keyboard. :(
I've typed the last 20 years on the same keyboard and all those "clicky", "linear" etc. things don't mean much to me so I hope to benefit by just testing those different styles to get a feel for it
You can get a basic impression of what the differences are, but I agree with the GP that it won't really tell you how typing on an entire keyboard with those switches will feel.
I bought a Typematrix 2030 since I can bring it wherever i go. It is small enough to sit on top of a macbook keyboard and the ortholinear layout helped my RSI
I like but don't love my Glove80. The build quality just feels a little cheap given how decidedly not cheap the price tag is. And the thumb clusters are quite pointy. I do like how the key well shape makes it easy to reach an extra row of keys; I have all my parens and braces below the zxcvb row, where on an ordinary keyboard all the modifiers would be.
This is exactly why I wouldn't want to switch from my Kinesis 360 Pro even though I prefer the low profile switches and maybe the thumb cluster from the Glove80.
I just love the build quality of the Kinesis 360 Pro.
I’m still hoping to see keyboard designs that adjust for the size of the user’s hand and length of their individual fingers.
Example: As noted in the post, some people have a longer middle finger while some have a longer ring finger. The “wingspan” can also vary wildly especially with the wide varieties of height.
If you have arthritis in your base of thumb joints, keyboards with thumb clusters may not be a good fit for you. I can use these types of keyboards for a day or two, then the thumb pain is too much.
I have the same issue with game controllers, so that may be a good indicator of problems with this type of keyboard.
Reminder that if you have any sort of finger or wrist pain, arthritis, RSI, etc the simplest fix you can make is to switch to a better keyboard layout like Dvorak. QWERTY was made to be unergonomic by design and with full intent of making your fingers travel further to type out common words to avoid adjacent keys from sticking if struck in close temporal proximity due to manufacturing limitations of the time.
I switch to Dvorak twenty years ago because I wrongly believed it would make me more productive (as if programming is limited by how fast you can type!) but stayed for the ergonomics. I should, by all rights, have terrible RSI due to how I abused my poor upper extremities in my youth but through the mercy of the lord and thanks to a miserable month or so of pecking at letters like a computer illiterate individual until I learned where the (unlabeled) Dvorak keys were, I have no real issues. On days where arthritis kicks in, typing isn’t an undue discomfort thanks to the sane layout of the keys.
Now, this is a site extolling the virtues of yet another layout, so feel free to take it with a grain of salt, but the methodology seems sound to me. (Though I used Workman in the past, I've since moved to Colemak due to a combination of it being built-in to Apple OSs and my dislike of the "ly" digram being on the same finger in Workman, plus some other factors.)
Even though Dvorak is the "least efficient" of the three QWERTY alternatives measured, it's still over a 40% reduction in finger travel distance compared to QWERTY. "Distance traveled" is obviously not the sole factor in ergonomics, but it's equally obviously a big one.
> Reminder that if you have any sort of finger or wrist pain, arthritis, RSI, etc...
Or better yet see a physiotherapist. The most important thing is not to ignore any tingling, numbness etc. That's a warning sign of RSI. Believe me it's better to address it early.
I had never come across that before - and I’m one of those guilty of spreading this origin story far and wide. Thanks for linking it - I think I have more reading to do!
I suppose QWERTY could very well be incidentally terrible rather than intentionally so (the keyboard travel in comparison to other layouts is genuinely worse).
I'd love it to have 1-2 more columns and one less row. And be twice as heavy. Keyboard must have some weight. No matter what kind of footing it has - if it's not heavy enough it will slide all over the table.
Such keyboards are good for people with wrist, shoulder, blood flow, etc. problems. But for the majority of computer users a regular keyboard is good enough - just take a short rest now and then.
If you try a split keyboard, either Glove80-like or Kinesis Advantage-like, it's pretty clear they're much, much more comfortable than rectangular keyboards. Your wrists sit in a natural position instead of bent unnaturally outward. This is particularly clear the smaller the keyboard is, e.g. on laptop keyboards.
In my opinion rectangular keyboards aren't good enough at all. They're uncomfortable and bad for your wrists, and the only reason people are using them are because: they don't know any better, computers (laptops), by default, come with rectangular keyboards, force of habit, the cost involved with buying another keyboard or having durable wrists/being young and not suffering from deteriorating body.
I started using Microsoft Natural Keyboards mid 90s, and moved onto Arisu layout mechanical keyboards a few years back when I first learned they were an option. They are so much more comfortable than rectangular keyboards. It's not even close, even without all the customization options available for switches, keycaps, tenting, etc.
Regular keyboards are why many people end up with wrist/hand/shoulder/etc. pain. Perhaps going as "extreme" as something like Glove80 is unnecessary for most, but I wouldn't recommend a regular keyboard to anyone that types at least a few hours a day.
I'm really glad I took the plunge and switched to a keyboard that I could program to move the action away from my pinkies (I moved the character blocks outward and got real creative with the two new columns between g and h).
Had I waited longer I think it would've gradually dampened my enthusiasm for code, just by association.
Why does every ergonomic mechanical keyboard have to cost like 4 times the price of a standard mechanical keyboard. I do not get it, and do not have that much money either.
I’d really love to see someone design a keyboard that fits your hands like a PlayStation controller. I can hold a controller for hours without any pain whatsoever.
That's funny, the latest armored core is giving me RSI. I'm not saying your experience is wrong, just self-deprecatingly reminding you of the old saying about "Make something idiot-proof, and they will build a better idiot."
you can change the position of any key. its one of the selling points of keyboards with qmk/zmk firmware. you can make unique layout for yourself or choose from what others have already tested in their setups.
I don't understand why this is so freaking hard to find.
Kinesis had the Free Style 2 keyboard[1] that you had to go out of the way to buy a vertical stand with, and it has been my go to keyboard FOR YEARS now because I just can't find any alternatives.
I used to use the Kinesis Advantage keyboards, but they mess with my carpal tunnel. As cool as they are the plastic placement for the wrist rests still mess with you. It's awful if you have carpal tunnel. And yes, everyone is saying they help, but they're still sources of aggravation because you are wresting your wrists on the plastic and compressing them. And yes, you can get some pads, but that really doesn't change the system.
I just want some g- d- vertical keyboards. And no one makes them with good layouts.
I got this crazy battlestation vertical keyboard from Safe Type [2] and I freaking HATED it because their layout puts a bunch of keys in the middle and there's an insane F-row keyset that requires me to move my hands all over the place. It's ridiculous!
How hard is it to get a vertical keyboard with a good keyboard layout?! I'm so scared my free style 2 is going to fail and I'm going to have to go back to a world with terrible keyboards. I even e-mailed Kinesis asking if they were going to go the same route of vertical keyboards and they refuse to. I'm dying here.
At this point I would love if someone made keyboard gloves that let me put them on and wear them to type so I don't have to compress any nerves, but I doubt that will ever happen. I feel like I'm nuts.
You can get a mounting plate for the Glove80 and mount it vertically. Some people do.
I went through some ergonomics research and they suggest that lower angles are better than completely vertical. It differs per paper, but most comfortable angle in group studies seems to be somewhere between 20 and 45 degrees if I remember correctly (I’d have to dig up the papers again).
The Keyboardio Model 100[0] has 1/4-20 threaded holes (standard tripod) in the bottom, so you can add them onto whatever crazy setup you have that uses that threading. So, you'd have to hack together a stand, probably, but once you do, you can make the stand exactly the way you want it. I've heard of people mounting the keyboard to their chair.
Interestingly I bought my mother-in-law a keyboard back in 1997 or so from an early auction site (not ebay) that had a release and dial that would split the keyboard and raise it in the center so you could pick any angle from 0-degrees to about 60 degrees vertical. As a transcriptionist she had dealt with carpal tunnel for years and that keyboard greatly reduced her pain. Sadly, I think it died in the early 2000s and I could never find a proper replacement.
It might have been a Keytronic, but I've slept since then.
It's funny as i only use my laptop for work and then seeing on the other side all those colleagues with 4 monitors and fully customized split mech keyboards on a layout i've never heard of. We must be living in a different world.
I now have a production model with the white clicky keyswitches. Ultra happy with it. I've been using Kinesis Advantage2s for a shade over two decades - the same model DanielDK used for a long time. The Glove80 is simply better. I prefer the clicky keyswitches. Ergonomics are great. It's really repairable - everything is held together with screws (spare parts for my Advantage2s are not available, and the function keys are not repairable). Open firmware so you can make it do wacky stuff if the need arises. Small and light enough for travel - I should get a proper case but it's survived a fair few trips stuffed into my backpack.
Yeah, adaptation to new keyboard layouts is hard. I used a layout that mimicked my old Advantage2 - so I'd paid the cost to learn columnar already. I found the default Glove80 layout was better, but switching meant a month of confusing Ctrl and Shift. All better now!