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Filmora and Adobe decide to use “Kdenlive” as a keyword in their online ads (reddit.com)
202 points by ladyanita22 on Jan 2, 2023 | hide | past | favorite | 111 comments



Filmora/Wondershare is having a very bad PR week - one of the worst I've seen since Baghdad Bob famously claimed here were no US soldiers in Baghdad. First they apparently decided to redefine a lifetime license to mean something other than lifetime for Filmora, and Louis Rossmamn (the right to repair guy) raked them over the coals for sketchy sales practices for data recovery software.

Filmora "altering the deal" on lifetime licenses: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bm90xW40c3A

Wondershare deceptive sales practices: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKX0LjGBBqo

Congrats to all the Kdenlive devs over the years - it's actually quite good!


I have never heard of this before, so congratulations on getting big enough for the paid competitors to take out ads.

"Kdenlive" sure is an open-source project name though. How is it even supposed to be pronounced? It's not actively offensive like "The GIMP" but it sure does not imply a single thing about what this program does to the uninitiated.


I can't tell if they're just bad with names, or if it's become some running joke but all kde software has stupid names


Calling a file manager Dolphin is a particularly bad one.


Is it worse than "Konqueror" or "Krusader"? Regardless, I don't see what's so bad about "Dolphin," it seems just as good as Nautilus, Nemo, Thunar, Finder, Midnight Commander, Caja, Ranger,...


Explorer ...


That's an internet browser, right? Surely nobody would make two different applications and give them the same name.


Internet Explorer is the browser, Explorer is the file manager. Not that Microsoft has made it confusing </s>


Could be worse - it could be named 'Files'. Good luck searching for help...


"KDE Files" - done

Apple, Google and Samsung have done it, why not KDE?


Apple's graphical shell is called Finder unless they renamed it for some reason.


On iOS the file manager is called Files.


Calling the Files app a "file manager" is being extremely generous


there is a program by KDE called Kile, but it's not what you think - it's a LaTeX suite


I mean I can guess how they got there. Shell led to Nautilus, and then they thought their shell should be named after another sea creature?

The seems like classic imitator product naming really.


It's not and never was a shell; Plasma is.


Not only is it just a bad name for a file manager, it breaks the k-prefix name convention (which is also a bad convention imo)


kid3 is a neat name. It is a KDE program for editing ID3 tags of audio files.


Hey! It's not bad! It's a Linux thing! ( :D )


One goes to the Photoshop to buy stock photos, right?


I think its more about workshops


DaVinci Resolve doesn't tell much about the program either to the uniniated.


It must have something to do with art, named after an artist and all.

Kdenlive looks a bit worse IMO. Maybe it is the name of a twitch-stream for someone with “creative name” parent.

“Hey this is Kden, I’m here with my best bros Ayighden and Reighleigh, and you’re watching KdenLive.”

(But I mean we’re used to bad open source names and it isn’t like they have a marketing department, so no big deal, haha).


The opposite exercise, treating proprietary software naming in such an un-generous way, is pretty easy too:

- Fireworks: you'll make bitmaps so good they'll blow up in colors?

- Dreamweaver: you can weave... dreams? I get the 90s web enthusiasm but come on

- Illustrator: there's bitmap illustration and vector illustration; Illustrator focuses on the latter, so good job on picking the wrong word in "vector illustration"

- InDesign: this name is a marketing dept playing it safe to a point that only a beige puddle of non-meaning remains

- GoLive: crappy subscription 1995 online service

- ColdFusion: lol

I'd love to see people taking such critical takes into the bigger guys for once. Especially because they have marketing departments. F/LOSS project naming reflects their often-personal origins and ways of expressing identity. Some do sound clunky, but give me the clumsy Inkscape any day (the "ksk" is hard to get used to, but you forget quickly) than any of the sad corporate names above.

I'm being snarkier that warranted, but man i'm crestfallen with all the unbridled hate on free software project naming around here.


All of the examples you gave are either real words or composites of real words, making them 10-100x more memorable and brandable than “Kdenlive.”

I agree that expectations should be different for FOSS, but the bar is literally at “pick one or two short + commonly used words and mush them together”…


You're right, but I don't think memorability and brandability are universal priorities that F/LOSS projects must also be measured from. Sure they can go for that (and many do), but it's unfair to hold them to that very specific standard.

I'm reminded of Debian Linux and its origins (the combination of names of the OS author and his partner). Ended up being pretty memorable, and brand-wise it works. And yet the motivations behind Debian's naming were unusually human for a software world full of empty buzznames.


What is the generous reading of kdenlive?

Just to be clear, from me at least, this isn’t intended as unbridled hate. The names are bad. So what? Anyone who’s named a software project knows it is an annoying task. And it isn’t very important. I think open source names are often somewhat sarcastic or lampshade-y, and I like it that way.

Inkscape is a great name, IMO.


I'll take it, not much to praise. It reads well (kayden live) unlike other names I have to grudgingly pronounce (postgresql, qjackctl, systemctl come to mind).

But cheers, now I see I was reactive towards a generalised view of your point; I now understand where you're coming from, I'm with you there.


You have a way with names my friend


Fwiw, I say K-dian-live, but, as with many software-y things, I have 0 friends with the same interests so it's always a guess. I do know on some Jupiter Broadcasting podcasts you can vote (with boosts/sats) on how to pronounce things (like Gif/Jif, Gnome/Gu-nome, Deb-ian/Dee-bian). So, I guess it's a regular thing... But you know, English... https://www.learnenglish.de/pronunciation/pronunciationpoem....

Somehow in my head some things come out as Dutch, so GGGnome (hard throaty G, like a Klingon would say it).


Who would the gimp offend? It’s not claiming gimps are good or bad, it’s just called the gimp. You could reasonably say it was unnecessary sexual but it’s not trying to hurt anyone.


The word's also used as a slur for people with physical disabilities.

Also the sexual connotation isn't very professional IMHO. And this is the opinion of someone who pays a significant chunk of her bills drawing porn.


I'm not an artist, but I'm curious as to how digital artists are making money online. Is it comission based? Is it more like only fans, but for art? What platforms are popular?

Back in the day I knew a few people doing a particular type of art, often with mild adult content on deviantart, or in some cases not so mild, and they were able to fulfill commissions that came direct from enquiries. Those days were quite a while ago, however. That particular topic has continued to grow, despite all its stigmas though I'd imagine with growth came more artists and that likely drove prices down for most.


You can probably pick any word used as a product name and find someone who claims to be genuinely offended to the core of their being by it.

That doesn't make it a slur.


It has been in use as a slur in since the 1920's at least.


I'd never heard of it being used as a slur, growing up in 70s/80s/90s. It just wasn't a word used in my circle/area. Was introduced to it in... late 90s or maybe 2000 at a local Linux group. No one mentioned anything about the name then, and I don't think I actually heard it referenced as a slur until around 10 years ago. Not saying it wasn't used or known as one, but it's certainly not a universal thing.

Perhaps if we ignored some of these reactions to words after... 80+ years, and just let the 'new' meaning become the default... we can move past censoring words that someone, somewhere, used as an insult?


As a general principle, I do think that the level of offense taken should generally be proportional to the context in which a word is used. This particular circumstance is really at worst unfortunate.

That said...

> Perhaps if we ignored some of these reactions to words after... 80+ years, and just let the 'new' meaning become the default... we can move past censoring words that someone, somewhere, used as an insult?

The world we live in today lets black rappers use the n-word in their music while also seeing white teachers get fired for using it in the context of a classroom discussion about why it is a bad word and ought not be used.

The mental gymnastics of accepting a word which could be either a term of endearment or the most deeply offensive pejorative are too messy for my liking.

> It just wasn't a word used in my circle/area

This highlights the problem, I think. You've moved from a circle where it wasn't even in use, to a circle where it is in use with one meaning (an acronym), and now another circle where it has been used for 100 years with an entirely different meaning (a slur).

You have a decision to make. Acknowledge that other people see the word differently than you do, or try to convince everyone that only your view of the word is the right one. Personally, I think it would be easier for the gimp to be renamed, but I'm also making an assumption (based on the circles I've run in) that more people are familiar with gimp as a slur than they are with it as an acronym for a software program.


So the fact you personnally were never inconvenienced by a word means it must become ok for others. And whenever we hear a slur, we have to somehow give it a pass because the word wasn't a slur before?

I'd recommend you read up on the aids health supplement, and how that attitude didn't help them. Simple fact is that GIMP has an unfortunate name, it's not getting any better despite your wishes to single-handedly control the most important language on the planet. Its name makes the whole product less appealing, making it a harder sell to switch from Photoshop. A better name would be in order.


The use of the word is enormously exaggerated by crybullies desperate to exert some power over a project. Words have contexts, and this context is not a slur. This is on par with the mental defectives claiming "blacklist" is a reference to slavery.


Right, but no-one's ever actually used it as a slur, and it's all just a bunch of folk whining so they can have their voice heard.


Calling someone a gimp has never been used as a slur? Are you voluntarily denying reality?

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gimp

Second etymology, fourth definition.


So, on a publically editable crowdsourced website, someone recently added that as a definition, so it must be true?

Yeah, no.


https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gimp

Gimp (3): 1. (sometimes offensive): Cripple (sense 1a)

----

https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/gimp

The noun gimp is sometimes used to describe a limp or another physical disability, although it's an outdated and offensive word to use.

If you comment on someone's gimp, call the person a gimp, or say, "Look at that guy trying to gimp across the parking lot without his crutches," you've chosen a very objectionable way to talk about a disability. People will know what you mean if you use the word, but they're likely to be offended by it. Gimp was first used in the 1920's, possibly as a combination of limp and gammy, an old slang word for "bad."

----

New Oxford Dictionary of American English

gimp(2) | ɡimp | North American informal, derogatory noun 1 a person with a physical disability or leg injury. • a limp. 2 a stupid or contemptible person.


Okay, so it appears in a crowdsourced dictionary, and in a dictionary for a nonstandard patois.

Sure.


All KDE tools have terrible names IMO


This is just senseless hating IMO. What is wrong with KMail? KolourPaint? Konsole? Ktorrent? KSudoku? These are all straight forward and descriptive. Nobody bats an eye at "Gmail" but KMail makes people lose their shit apparently. Come on.

And of those that aren't plain and descriptive, most of them seem inoffensive. What makes Kate such a worse name for a text editor than "Vim", or "JOE"? What's so awful about a PDF reader called "Okular", when the competition is named named after southwestern construction materials and trapeze artists e.g Adobe Acrobat? At least 'Okular' suggests the program is for viewing something. Corporate brand can be as bizarre as the strangest KDE names, the only difference is what you're acclimatized to.


It's just a personal preference. I can't tell you why, but I just don't like how all of the programs start with K. I think it looks weird.

It also annoys me every time I try to search for the calculator by typing in "Calc", but nothing is found because I forgot I need to look for "KCalc"

I think at the very least, commonly used applications like "Calculator", "Console", "Mail" should just be called "Calculator", "Console", and "Mail". Not everything has to be branded. The mail application on Windows is called "Mail", the terminal is called "Terminal", etc. They don't call them "WinMail" or "WinTerminal" for a reason. They know most users would find that off putting


Better than gnome where every program has two names; one used in the documentation and . desktop file, and another used at the command-line and by the package manager


I see you haven't used GNOME :)


Even Krita?


> How is it even supposed to be pronounced?

I've always heard it and pronounced it as kay-den


It's probably more meaningful to someone who uses other KDE tools.


Consistent, yes. Meaningful, no.

What does "denlive" mean? "live" could mean "streamed in real-time" but "den"? "kden"? Am I transmitting live from my den?


from their user manual:

"Kdenlive is an acronym for KDE Non-Linear Video Editor"


Not sure if adobe is any better


At least it’s pronounceable and “photoshop” and “illustrator” are pretty self-explanatory. Acrobat isn’t I’ll grant.


I wouldn't call Adobe pronounceable, most people I know call it "a doab."


If they know what adobe is it's perfectly pronounceable.


So I can buy pictures with photoshop ?

Not defending kdenlive but photoshop is a bad example


Do you buy cars at the autoshop? Or buy lumber at the woodshop?

The photoshop is where you work on pictures. If you shopped there, it would be a photostore.


Just an FYI, outside of North America, the only shop specifically for work is a workshop. We would go to a auto workshop or a wood workshop. For Aussies or Brits a shop is equivalent to a store (often a small one). And yes go shopping at a shop or a store, you don't usual go storing at a store, unless it's like a grain store or a data store.


huh, never made that connection. I guess because I'm not American. Thanks for clearing that up.


if you stored photos there it would be a photoshed


At this point it is a term so used, any previous meaning has been replaced.

It is even used as a verb for 'generic photography edition'.


how is acrobat not pronounceable? have you never been to the circus?


He missed a comma:

> At least it’s pronounceable, and “photoshop” and “illustrator” are pretty self-explanatory. Acrobat isn’t [self-explanatory] I’ll grant.


you might be thinking about it wrong. maybe it's named after the number of hoops you have to jump through in order to make things


This is what success looks like! Congrats Kdenlive devs! And thanx for a great video editor!


That’s a life goal right there: Have your software reach enough users that a software giant buys ads in searches for your software.


I just started using Kdenlive and it's truly impressive, especially when compared to other FOSS solutions like OpenShot. As far as I can tell it's head and shoulders above the competition.


I've used kdenlive for the better part of a decade now, it's great to see it grow and get a well-deserved place in the sun.

A fun trick I used to use when kdenlive would corrupt its own savefile is to drag the kdenlive project into an openshot timeline and render it with openshot- it'd work too.


> when kdenlive would corrupt its own savefile

Hmm, this is not filling me with confidence


Fun trick, or horrendous bug: we'll tell you after the break!


+1 for Kdenlive, it's so good I went from knowing nothing about it to editing a complex 3-hour course full of clips in less than a week. It's incredibly powerful and dense with tools.


Had never heard of this before, here's the blurb from the sidebar of the subreddit:

> Kdenlive is an intuitive and powerful multi-track video editor, including most recent video technologies. Our software is completely free, as defined by the GNU foundation. Using Kdenlive is investing in a community driven project, which aims to establish relationships between people in order to built the best video tools.


Filmora is fighting a losing PR battle with their decision to end honoring lifetime licensing.


although I'm not a video editor I was served up a video on Youtube from one of their old brand ambassadors, I watched three of his video's. They've created a bit of a PR nightmare coming across as a big bully, even to the point of issuing DMCA take down notices.


FIlmora Buckles Under Public Pressure! (but issues a threat) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xy1HiWGchMg


And their threat, as claimed in the video, is that of legal action against those posting on social media for what they're claiming is false and misleading information.

It does kind of sound like they're targeting that guy for calling them out.


is there anywhere i can find out more info on this that isn't a youtube video or twitter thread?


I don't see why this is interesting. Internet marketers have been using this strategy since the adevnt of the internet.


When Adobe markets their product as an alternative to yours, you know you're doing it right.


The parent's point is that marketing folks have always done this for every possible alternative. It has no relationship to whether Kdenlive is "doing it right".


They clearly don't. Go and search for OpenShot or Cinelerra and let me know how many Adobe ads show up.

Actually I can't get an ad to show up for Kdenlive either so I can't test this (maybe region specific?) but I'm guessing it's zero!


Reminds me of GoLive vs. Dreamweaver - or ImageReady vs Fireworks before their Macromedia aquisition... "if you can't beat them, buy them".


That's just Kdenlive getting tagged as "Video editing software" on wikipedia/search engines, and I guess they simply bought ads for the "video editing software" space...


try to do that with adobe product and they will send their lawyers after you as if you murdered their cat


No, this is how Google ads work. With enough money you can be in front of Adobe fur the keyword Adobe or Photoshop.


It may not have the best UI, but Kdenlive is really powerful. It's based on the scriptable editor called "melt" - which actually saved me during the early days of the pandemic (blog post here: https://www.circusscientist.com/2020/04/09/making-a-living-d...)


Love kdenlive. (I've been pronouncing it kay-den-live, but ymmv.) Terrific video editor that I've cut lots of footage with. Just keeps getting better, too.


Tangentially, is someone working on smooth previews for the rendered output ? Kdenlive provides preview zones where it encodes just a small selected segment so it plays smooth as opposed to at 7fps when previewing.

Encoding the entire output can understandably run slower than 1x, but transitions can be rendered on the plain decoded inputs, so I'm still hoping to see instant smooth previews in a future release.


Never heard of kdenlive, had to look it up. Looks like an amazing pieces of software for being FOSS.


Things may have changed but IIRC you can bid on a competitors keyword on Google BUT you cannot use their trademarked brand in the content.

It would appear the Filmora ad violates this. Submit a complaint to Google.


As stated in the reddit post itself - "They had them on Google too, but we complained and they were removed."

The ad targeting is done on Yahoo and Bing searches


Sounds like a pretty straightforward trademark dispute.


You can advertise on other peoples' trademarks, as long as you don't misrepresent your software as being 'official' or otherwise confuse users via your ad. The ad in the screenshot says "Best alternative to Kdenlive" so I doubt anyone's going to think Filmora is an official product of KDE/Kdenlive.


I just checked for instance in France it's not that simple:

"Care must be taken to ensure that advertising :

  - Is not misleading or likely to mislead,
  - Relates to goods or services of the same nature, meeting the same needs or having the same objective,
  - objectively compares one or more essential, relevant, verifiable and representative characteristics of these goods or services, such as price.
"


Odd choice of words. To me 'best alternative to' implies the target audience is people who can't choose kdenlive for some reason. But something which is both libre and free of charge has few barriers to adoption.


well, why would you pit a paid software against a free one. obviously it is free so they are giving it away because it must be a crap software. no way. /s


How?


Kdenlive is their trademark, competitors are using it to sell their products.


In marketing, you can include competitor brand names in your keywords. The tactic is referred to as "conquesting".


Yes. In general people avoid giving any attention to their competitors, so marketers typically say “50% better than the most popular toothpaste” (if you’re an underdog) or “the #1 product, used by twice as many people as the competition”.

But that’s a convention. You can absolutely use competitors trademarks as long as it doesn’t create confusion. The Pepsi Challenge is a famous example. Microsoft’s lame “I’m a Mac” ads are another.


> Microsoft’s lame “I’m a Mac” ads are another.

I think you'll find those were Apple's lame ads.


I think you’ll find Microsoft made even lamer ads as an attempted response, though I did misremember and they were “I’m a PC”: https://velocitypartners.com/blog/microsofts-baffling-im-a-p...


I think Apple's original message was something along the lines of, "You can't get malware on a Mac", but the subtext would have been, "Only because we have so little market share that the scammers wouldn't waste their time developing it."


Eh, I don’t think that was the message. And at the time Macs were far far more malware-resistant than Windows. There are better complaints about Apple.


If people actually wrote viruses for Macs they would have ran just like Windows. The expense and rarity of Macs at the time in hands of people that wanted to write programs drastically reduced the number of attacks.


> Macs were far far more malware-resistant than Windows

In what ways? I work in the field, so feel free to speak technically.


Trademark isn't being used; you'll notice the ads don't contain any reference to Kdenlive.


The first image in the linked Reddit post literally says "Best alternative to Kdenlive", though.




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