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Launch HN: Pana (YC S22) – Social Trust Banking with a US Latino Focus
66 points by Piero0909 on Aug 12, 2022 | hide | past | favorite | 82 comments
Hey HN! We are Piero and Luis, co-founders at Pana (https://joinpana.com), a banking app that uses social trust to help people save money and access healthier and better financial products. We’re open to everyone, but are focusing on the 62M Latinos in the USA, a particularly under-served market that we know a lot about.

US Hispanics have largely been ignored by traditional banks [1], resulting in 5% of this population being unbanked and an additional 13% underbanked. This is mainly due to cultural differences and lack of trust, as well as in-person and Social Security Number requirements that exclude a significant number of people.

Why is this market under-served? In Latino communities, a lot of transactions take place within family and personal networks based on trust. But this trust network isn't connected to the standard banking system, and therefore they don't get access to the financial products they should, if their creditworthiness were evaluated properly.

In addition to remittances, Latinos commonly lend amongst each other. Lending circles are an example of trust and credit-worthiness currently outside the formal financial system, and are common among US Hispanics (e.g. [2]).

We’re working on a new “social banking” concept that is designed to be a better fit for the trust-based behaviors that are common and familiar to this community. Of course, everyone is welcome! But we believe that social banking is especially applicable to the US Latino market, so we’re focusing there for now.

It’s worth adding that a proper evaluation of trust-based payment behavior should help us lend to people who are currently being abused by predatory rates.

The inspiration for Pana came during my time as head of Scotiabank’s Caribbean & Central America Digital Factory, where I saw the power of building digital banking products for the Hispanic market. In stark contrast, I was surprised to learn on a trip to the US that without a Social Security Number I had to visit a traditional branch. After numerous signatures and hours of waiting, I was finally able to open the account—and then handed an ATM card instead of a debit card which would only allow me to do cash withdrawals and not the ability to make purchases. Adding insult to injury, I could never reach the bank officer again for support.

Because this was so surprising to me, I checked with friends and family, and all of them shared similar experiences. “Lack of trust,” “high fees,” and “cultural differences” were words I heard repeatedly.

It isn’t just end-customers who struggle with this system. Employers and sellers transacting with the 12M people living in the U.S. without a Social Security Number have to rely on cumbersome paper checks, cash or money order, and seriously, you have no idea how complicated it still is to perform basic transactions like sending money abroad.

Encountering this broken situation made me realize that a new startup would be best positioned to fix it. I had already, working with a team that’s knowledgeable about the Hispanic market, built digital banking solutions solving some of these issues—but only for big banks; smaller institutions tend to lack the scale, technology, and reach. However, the big banks are the ones who ignore this demographic in the first place because they have “bigger fish to fry”—a catch-22! The market, however, is easily large enough to support a new business, so we decided to build it ourselves.

With Pana, we’re applying the functionality and community-building aspects of familiar apps like WhatsApp to the banking space. Today, Whatsapp is widespread in the US Latino market -specially around informal peer-to-peer financial transactions-, proving that when one tool catches on, it will probably become the norm across this diaspora. We’re building on the social trust strongly embedded within the Latino culture to help achieve personal financial goals. Individuals can choose to share milestones and celebrate achievements with close friends or public groups of peers with similar needs. Within a group, payments and requests for payment among users can be made.

If this works, banking on social trust could potentially disrupt the $320B in yearly transactions through Alternative Financial Services (money orders, check cashers, payday loans, etc.), and who knows, maybe eventually the banking industry as a whole!

Latinos represent the fastest-growing diaspora in the USA with a 1.7T buying power and are often forgotten—in part, because we are not compelled to use existing banking products and therefore, no one can see how trustworthy many of us really are. We're now on a mission to remove these financial barriers.

We really hope you guys check out Pana and tell us any feedback you might have, and we look forward to your comments!

[1] https://www.federalreserve.gov/publications/2021-economic-we...

[2] https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2014/04/01/292580644...




Aren't there regulations that make this illegal? Surely current online banks would let you open an account without an SSN if they were allowed to.


Some major banks do allow you to open an account without an SSN whenever you have a valid proof of address just like Pana. The difference is that they require you to visit the branch in person, we don't.


In that same vein, are there unique KYC/AML requirements that come about when dealing with customers who don't have an SSN? I've had the experience as an American banking in Europe and my impression was that banks really don't like to serve foreigners as customers because it has a higher overall risk profile (I know Americans also have unique additional reporting requirements but in general that was my understanding). Are there any regulations you have to deal with around immigration reporting?


If you have a valid passport and a proof of address in the USA, you are able to open a bank account with Pana and even some big banks. What we've seen is that its 10x more difficult with these big banks.


Sure, but it's probably partially more difficult because there are heftier regulatory requirements for non-citizens, no? I'm just curious how that translates practically to KYC/AML work on your side


Yes there are. For now from a regulatory standpoint validating the users identity and their proof of residing in the USA is enough to comply with KYC/AML standpoint


I never visited US but I have US bank account through Aeldra. And the required document it's just my Indian passport.


Sounds great! BB Americas has something similar for Brazilians wanting a US bank account, but other Latin American countries don't have services like Aeldra or BB available yet.


> but I have US bank account through Aeldra

Had. Aeldra is winding down operations. They sent out a notice a while ago. Check your email.


I don't think that is winding down but more of a compliance with their partner bank account. As long as you have transaction done by regularly you don't need to worry I think.


The email literally says:

Aeldra is winding down its operations due to a decision driven by external factors. This action is not specific to your account and applies to all Aeldra accounts.


I haven't figured that out. Bank of America required my SSN, but Varo, a neobank, did not require it. For my purposes they are functionally the same product, but maybe neobanks are excluded somehow?


FWIW, I created an account at Bank of America without an SSN. This was a few years ago though.

I think a lot of this might inconsistent even across branches of the same bank.


It’s totally possible to open accounts without SSNs.. plenty do it. They still need to do their KYC though.


How to KYC w/o SSN or other things the Gov wants to track us with?


I've seen some banking forms that ask for passport number, visa number or foreign tax ID when no SSN is available.


It looks like you basically combined FDIC-insured bank accounts with Venmo-like payment functionality and some other stuff? That seems pretty useful.

But currently Latinos mostly use Whatsapp for payments? Is that right?


In part yes. We've also implemented free remittances up to $300 making it 10x better and cheaper to send money for 90% of use cases. Thanks!


Kudos to the free remittance feature, genuine social good there. Wishing y’all success!


That's really interesting, how do you manage the conversion for the person accepting the funds abroad? Generally you have to tap into a partner network you build right? Or are you partnering up with some existing provider to use their infrastructure?


Thanks! The person getting the funds can receive them in their bank account or pick it up at specific locations. They can either have a Pana profile (chat only) or not. We do have great partners including some on the infrastructure side


Are you avoiding mentioning ETH/cryptocurrency things because you're unlikely to integrate them, or because it's not super popular to talk about that right now?


Great point! We believe there is a lot of potential on many other technologies like ETH/Crypto. We just had to start with basics and continue to evolve from there


I'm genuinely confused why you think crypto currency has anything to offer for traditional banking


> But currently Latinos mostly use Whatsapp for payments? Is that right?

WhatsApp is widely used for almost everything in Latin America. But it doesn't support native in app payments yet.

They tried to do that in Brazil in 2020 but they were slowed down or halted for regulatory concerns.

Something we do very often is to share online payment links and bank transfer screenshots via WhatsApp.


Zelle in the US is the most common form of instant payment, at least in South Florida.


It's becoming better. But my companies credit union doesn't have Zelle yet. While my state employee credit union does.


I remember back in 2016 when I traveled to the US to get my master's (proud latino over here).

It was cold af, but the college experience was awesome: met a lot of different cultures, made some great friendships, and learned a lot... But...

As every new person to a new country (in a foreign language), there are many hurdles, and it's impossible to forget how painful it was to open a bank account.

It took me a painful 3 hours and several voodoo tactics with a relative to finally open a checking bank account within Bank of America.

No SSN, no credit score, no records; it was as if I didn't exist. I needed the bank account because it was how I was supposed to receive my funds and live!

Finally... just finally after that awful experience was over, it went buttery smooth. Love the technology that US banks provide

Nonetheless, after 2 years, my study period was over and I left the US (I do visit it yearly for tourism), and left my BofA account opened with some $.

As it was normal, my debit card expired, and I had to issue a new one to access my account! BoFa requires you to use your debit card PIN as a 2FA step.

The problem is that the only address I have is a courier. And while I can receive almost anything, I don't know why, even after verifying my address, it never seem to reach it.

Therefore there's no way to get back to your account, unless you spend 1 hour of your day dealing with customer support.

In addition, BoFA has geoblocking outside the US. I have to connect through a VPN and use Google Hangouts (to prevent expensive international calls) to reach them.

Just plain awful.

If you asked me I do miss having a US card because there are sites that only allow you to use US issued cards. For one, I couldn't buy AppleCare for my father's MacBook because Apple wouldn't allow me to use foreign cards.

I have no idea whether this service (Pana) would do any justice, but if it works as well as the founders are envisioning to, then have my blessings.

We all need to be represented when we travel abroad, especially the marginalized Latino community.


BoA just sucks for foreigners. But not all banks are like that. Wells fargo will allow you to have a foreign number and send your debit/card overseas too.


I so feel your pain having lived it in flesh and bones and yes, we're just getting started but those are the pain-points we're working on fixing. Thank you for the feedback and we hope you try Pana. We do not have hidden fees like minimum balance or even debit card fee


He said he no longer lives in the United States. Did I understand correctly that you need to live in the US to open a Pana account?


Correct, in case he were to move back to the USA, he'd be able to get out a Pana account and enjoy these benefits we described


Oh, that sounds interesting. I'll give it a shot!!! Thanks!


Funny you mention scotiabank in the caribbean/central america. I specifically signed up for them so I could use them in that region, they told me yeah you're good to go for your account services there by the people at the bank in Canada... NOPE, can't even make a deposit or anything with this card, the banker in Canada was wrong. Oh well at least there's no transaction fees on the card whenever I use it.

So my question about your company is this (Great idea by the way) - How well do your accounts work for travelling outside of the USA?


Honestly, and dont take my word for it, the international Visa Debit card you get when opening an account works flawlessly!


Not wanting to sound negative but can you explain how you are not going to shutdown in a year.

Cheese recently announced the closure of all accounts by the next month. It has the same ideas as your startup (except it’s targeting Asians).


Thats ok :) Its a completely different segment and our early traction as well as our insights for whats to come make us very optimistic for the future.


That doesn't answer parent comment's question at all.


No it doesn’t. It’s a BS answer and a good reason to stay 56 miles away from such a company.


Hi Csomar, the answer is simple; we've seen great interest for the product we're building and we've personally experience the problem we're solving


Where did you see Cheese is closing accounts?


They recently sent an email about their winding down.


This is a great endeavor! I add 1 extra “niche” for you there in case it helps. People working remotely, but want to have a US bank account.

It happens A LOT with freelancers from Argentina/Uruguay. If you live in Arg, but work for a US company, you want to use a US bank account.

A lot of people I know are now transitioning to Wise.


Wise bans venezuelans, cubans

Constatly closes central americans account, perma holding with no support answers to colombians

Instant closes latin accounts of people who have emigrated to the US ilegally/refugees/asylum

Has no chile/peru outgoing transactions

Bolivia doesnt exist in wise

It seems like they are actually making an effort no serve latin america or kick out the latin america users.

So much for 'borderless accounts'

Aparently borderless for them means people living in SF sending money to people in NY


What makes Pana specific to Latinos? It sounds like this product is relevant to pretty much any immigrant who's struggling to set up banking in the US while occasionally exchanging money with folks back home. I can imagine folks from every ethnic background and 6 of 7 continents using this product.

I guess it's a market focus thing -- appeal specifically to Latinos to build a small, dense network before you branch out to other backgrounds?

Just feels a bit weird to claim to be "inclusive" when you also claim that you're for one specific ethnic group.


Within that specific ethnic group there are several national backgrounds. Even the word "pana" itself, which is like "bro" is not used by all the different subgroups of latinos(some might say compa, parce, chero, etc). I like the name because it's easy to say and sounds like "pan-american." I just think you have to start somewhere. Where I've lived there seem to be just as many South Asian and East African immigrants as latinos.


You're exactly right! This is just a starting point as we're for everyone. Latinos is a segment we truly understand and therefore it made sense to start there. Pana means "Pal", and we believe thats the type of friendly banking all migrants need when coming to the USA


Counterpoint: Don't change anything. Building something that is clearly made for "you" (as the customer) is one of the advantages a startup has. If someone in your segment gets to your landing page, they can quickly see this is custom built for them. If you build for everyone, you effectively build for no one.


I think you may be conflating a few things here.

Being Latino and not being eligible for a social security number (and by extension having a bank account) are different things.

There are millions of Latinos that are citizens, some others are permanent residents, temporary workers, fiancees or otherwise people eligible for a SSN... Some others are refugees under TPS, some others are in DACA, and so on and on.

To conflate Latino and undocumented immigrant is upsetting as fuck, it reinforces negative stereotypes that already cause significant problems like citizens being assaulted, insulted, discriminated against, kidnapped by ICE, harassed by TSA, CBP and other agencies.

Conflating undocumented immigrant and Latino is a disservice to the community at large.

Another thing is: how do you guarantee your service won't be used to finance or otherwise facilitate human trafficking, smuggling, prostitution, extortion or any other illegal activity? Will your service adhere to the Bank Secrecy Act and other regulations?


Millions of migrants including Latinos come to the USA legally and while they go through the process of getting an SSN usually some time passes while one needs a bank account for many reasons. During that period, Pana offers a 10x better experience. We at Pana are solving problems we've personally experienced. The Pana bank account is FDIC insured and compliant with all required regulations through our banking partner Piermont Bank.


And there are many more millions who are already here, and have been here for generations, and are US citizens.

The way you use language to promote your service doesn't reflect that.

You may want to say "Latino immigrants" or "Latino tourists", since those are small subsets of "Latino". Be specific.

Do you think Latinos are people that "come to the USA", as if they were all tourists and immigrants? Latinos are about 1/5th of the US population.

Why are you portraying Latinos as a network of 60 million of people informally lending money directly to each other? Do you even know 1 Latino person?

Do you think all Latinos are buying houses lending money to each other? as if any realtor would be remotely OK with that? What the FUCK


Interestingly enough, in Southern California a significant percentage of border agents are Chicanos. Border security and immigration policy isn’t a race issue, no matter what certain ideologues would have you believe.

It’s interesting to me that many Chicano families can trace their history back to the old Spanish Empire. They’ve literally been Americans longer than nearly all Anglos.


"To conflate Latino and undocumented immigrant is upsetting as fuck"

Or... just an accurate perception of reality? Turns out, not many Namibians or Mongolians make it to the USA undocumented. This doesn't have to be a politically charged observation unless you're trying to force it to be one.


What do you think is the proportion of legal and illegal Latinos?

What you say implies something close to 99% of Latinos are undocumented, and that's not even remotely true.

If there are 60 million Latinos in the US, and 11 undocumented immigrants of all national origins, that means your statement is false as well as intellectually dishonest.

And some of those might as well be descendants of US citizens removed via ethnic cleansing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Repatriation


I don't think I implied that. How many undocumented immigrants in the US do you think are not Latino?


DHS numbers from 2014[1]:

- India: 4%

- Philippines: 3%

- China: 2%

- Korea: 2%

- Vietnam: 2%

- Mexico, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, Dominican Republic: 70%

- Other: 17%

The number of illegal immigrants from Mexico and El Salvador are going down. Mexicans are no longer the majority.

[1]: https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/Unautho...

Anyways, the way you present accusations without even looking things up beforehand makes you look pretty bad.


So 70% are central America. Throw in South America and it's an even higher percentage that are Latino.

I'd call that an accurate perception of reality, not "upsetting as fuck."

And this startup is trying to provide valuable services that improve their lives. Why does it upset you so?


If less than 13% of Latinos are undocumented, to say Latino = undocumented is not an accurate perception of reality.

And the part that I characterized as being "upsetting as fuck" is the false premise that most US Latinos are tourists or immigrants not eligible for a bank account rather than the reality which is that most US Latinos are US citizens that do not need this fucking application to do banking whatsoever or their unintelligent founders with savior complex that do not even know the difference between a Latino and someone ineligible for a bank account.

It invalidates the fact Latinos have been here for a long time and formed families and participate of society in a law abiding way, and now in a few words from this guy they're all back to being tourists and illegals that can't even open a bank account. Fuck! You guys know how to make someone upset.

Go to Puerto Rico, California, Florida or Texas and socialize a little bit before making such uninformed claims.


> It invalidates the fact Latinos have been here for a long time and formed families and participate of society in a law abiding way, and now in a few words from this guy they're all back to being tourists and illegals

I understand your point. But I think this could have been an unintended lost-in-translation kind of mistake?

The U.S English definition of 'Latino' is different from the Latin American Spanish meaning of 'Latino/Latinoamericano'.

Maybe they meant to say "Latinos en Estados Unidos", and translated it as "US Latinos" instead of "Latin Americans in the US".


I think the relevant consideration is not the number of latinos that are undocumented, but the number of undocumented that are latino.

I work at a company that helps US employers provide H2-A visas and benefits to undocumented immigrants, including banking services, so I'm not totally uninformed here.


That was not the point of contention, you are just rephrasing things in a desperate attempt to save face and sound logical.

Most Latinos are not undocumented and to make that generalization, which you did, is discriminatory.

Use all weasel and misleading language you want. I know what you are trying to achieve, and you have failed at it.


Good luck with your launch! As a latin in south america, can I open an account in your bank? Do I risk getting blocked if I deposit through crypto exchanges? My country is in ruins and using local banks just means we lose all our money really fast, we have crypto as an alternative but I want a bank I can trust.


Hey Ivass, at the moment only users who live in the USA can open a bank account


Could you please also clarify what living in the USA means? If I happen to travel with a tourist visa, is a certain amount of time necessary? I imagine a lot of those 62M used tourism visas. Are they allowed to go back to their countries and still keep the account, for how long?


You must provide a proof of address like a utility bill or a bank statement with you name on it that proofs that you live in the USA


I dont live in the US, yet I have bank accounts, credit cards, services and utilities paid (Google fi, etc) with US address, can I access?


social/chat based finance seems ripe for fraud to me. Imagine if a facebook worm had access to your finances. How do you overcome this concern?

EDIT: I guess messenger does have it's own payment system too... which seems crazy to me.


Great point, it's exactly because its the other way around that its completely different. Instead of adding financial features to a social platform, we're adding a chat functionality to an FDIC insured and secured banking platform. Its sounds like the same but from a security stand point -as well as a cognitive one- we believe it makes all the difference.


Surely you mean Latinx? This post title completely erases non-binary, trans and 2 spirit people


Hmm… people living in the country and getting paid without a social security number? Could there not be another term for this group?

I’m thinking that a certain political party would make this whole thing unviable outside of a few cities.


Quite an interesting solution for such a big market, as Latinos we have so many obstacles to have access to finance services when we have just migrated. This can change all of that


Why focus on race? Why not a compelling solution that is inclusive of everyone? I guess that's marketing these days.


Vamos Pana!


Best of luck for you guys. This project will be a success


[flagged]


Nothing says "inclusive" like targeting customers based on their ethnicity


I think they make it pretty clear this product is for everyone but that Latino's are their first market.


Imagine if someone made a similar product, but explicitly marketed towards white people. How well would that be received here?


Ironically, I think many latino's do classify themselves as white! https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/2021/11/04/measuring-th...

I get what you're driving at but I just don't think it's helpful for anyone to pretend that there aren't groups of people with different needs, cultures, etc. and don't think this is that big of a deal


I actually agree, and think there's probably a clear need here to provide for a market that's underserved. I do think it's odd to categorize this as inclusive though.


Latino relates to country of origin not ethnicity.

There are many colonies of Europeans in Latin America that are mostly endogamic and they would be considered Latino too.


Country of origin can be an ethnicity. Ethnicity isn't race.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latino_(demonym)

>Neither "Hispanic" nor "Latino" refers to a race, as a person of Latino/Hispanic ethnicity can be of any race

https://thesocietypages.org/teaching/2013/04/02/latino-race-...

>As sociologists, we are quick to refer to “Latino” as an ethnicity,


So an endogamic Mennonite living in Latin America is the same ethnicity as a tribe member from the Amazon? Makes a lot of sense. Good job, sociologists.




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