The reason I really like the idea of a crate motor is because one of my pet peeves about new vehicles, and EVs and Teslas in particular, is that they seem to invariably turn your vehicle into an always-connected, auto-updating tablet, with zero privacy.
Partly why I like my older truck--it's got no modem, no screens other than a little clock, and nobody in any large corporation knows exactly where I drive it every moment of the day.
Exactly my thoughts! It's just an electric motor, it need not entangle my automobile in a web of SaaS interconnectivity. I think it's a problem the industry over, but EVs are particularly afflicted because they still serve the early adopters and technophiles.
I'm liking the trend of high-tech unchained lately, I'm seeing more instances of really great technology being supplied and built with consumer freedom and portability in mind.
Another problem is the ability to "refuel" with privacy as well. The fact that the charger identifies your car is a big no-no in my book. Also many/most? places demanding an account/credit card to pay.
I'm with you on demanding an account. However, if you have self-serve chargers that you want to be available 24/7 while also being unmanned, accepting cash can be troublesome. I hate trying to get cash to be accepted by automated machines, as they have to have the bill in the perfect condition or they just spit it back out at you. Also, an unmanned kiosk accepting cash is just asking for security issues. Yes, it's just a reverse ATM, but if you can avoid it by not storing cash then so much the better for them.
Was thinking more of "gas" station type places, with the snacks and cashier. Personally, probably wouldn't charge much at mall parking garages and other places where this would make sense.
There are gas stations that have 24/7 pumps availble while being otherwise totally closed. I was fortunate to have this be the case while driving through the desert. I was rushing home across country to get to a relative in the hospital, and in that mental state totally failed to check on fuel levels. When it finally occurred to me at 2am, the gauge was precariously low. After a few minutes I saw a station up ahead with no lights and totally closed. At that point I was preparing myself to sleep in the parking lot until they opened. To my luck, pay at the pump was available. Probably the most surreal fueling experience I've had, but totally saved my butt.
Do you mean 24/7 credit card or 24/7 takes cash? Because credit card readers built into pumps seems almost universally standard. Being able to get gas at any time of the day (even if the shop is closed) is very standard. It’s weird when the pump is not working or doesn’t have a card reader built in.
>I'm with you on demanding an account. However, if you have self-serve chargers that you want to be available 24/7 while also being unmanned, accepting cash can be troublesome.
At 10 cents per kWh, an EV costs $8-$10 to recharge (for an 80-100 kWh EV). So it’s more like an expensive beer.
If you are charging many, many EVs, you can buy your own capacity, and you don’t need to worry about a grid, maybe you can pay the LCoE, which is about $31/MWh for solar, so that charge costs $3 and is more like a cheap beer at a bar.
(At current US gas prices, that still makes the energy cost of an EV something like 1/3 that of a Prius and vastly cheaper than an average ICE car.)
Given that right now ICE cars are refilling at a rate about as expensive as colas (on a per-gallon basis), it seems like could be true. Seems unlikely to be true with EVs for a long time however.
They have (had?) cars powered by compressed CO2 in India. Honestly, if they were available worldwide it seemed cool enough to buy one. Less efficient conversion of electricity to stored energy, but great if you don't worry about heat and more than made up for by the cheaper up front cost of the car (in money and in damage to the earth).
I expect a charger condom would unfortunately cut out useful charger control packets as well as identifying information. I would totally use one, otherwise.
We're moving towards a state where simplicity and privacy is the province of the affluent. A simple, reliable product doesn't make for a repeat customer. If you buy what the Bollinger claims to be, you'll probably take care of it, and won't want to trade it in for a new model every year or three. Ideally they don't get to market your telematics data either. That gives them all of one chance to extract the product's value from you. Add that to the small production runs of a niche vehicle, and the price makes a depressing amount of sense.
“But It For Life” is a double-niched category: from the limited number of consumers interested and educated in the value proposition and from the entrepreneurs willing to build the companies and muster the investors who aren’t turned off by the promise of slow and small growth.
I feel like the investors are the hard part there, not the consumers. For instance, all pay software seems to be moving towards a subscription service, and that's not a consumer-led movement.
When you look at it, it's truly astonishing (well, maybe not) what economies of scale one can achieve going from ~10k EAU to ~1M EAU (with up to 5M across other models to amortize engineering and common parts).
Yes, but thought the electric car part market should have scaled by now. That leaves a smaller job of building the chassis. By how boxy it is should be easy pretty shortly. Hopefully price will come down quickly, because a simple no-telemetry e-vehicle is what I'm interested it.
It isn't the electric car parts that are necessarily the bit that need to scale, though. The custom-manufactured sheet metal goes from being made out of house to owning your own metal-pressing facilities. The screws, fittings and hardware goes from "what we can buy off the shelf or pay to make custom" to "what's on the shelf was made initially for us". Same story for electronics.
It's not even just the input materials that are helped by two-order-of-magnitude scale differences; assembly is also affected. Say you're considering a $100k robot to replace some assembly step that is currently done by a $10/hr human. At Bollinger-scale, that robot needs to save an hour of labor for each unit to pay for itself in a year. At Ford scale, it needs to save 36 seconds.
Past that, engineering is affected too. At Bollinger, a $100k/year engineer can pay their own salary by shaving $10 off the unit cost. At Ford, that same engineer pays their salary if they reduce the unit cost by $0.1.
Lastly, there are huge NRE's that are inherent to developing a car for sale (or any product, really) that scale very sublinearly with volume (think regulatory compliance and crash testing, prototyping, tooling etc), but that are amortized much more quickly at 1M EAU than 10K EAU.
Given all that, it's astonishing that they are (hopefully) bringing this design to market at only ~2x the street price of the mass-produced competition.
I really like the Bollinger. For the same reasons as you. I'd buy it instead of the Cybertruck if it was price competitive. But I'm not going to pay $50k more just to avoid the smarts of a Cybertruck.
Had never heard of them but they look awesome. I'm in love with boxy-looking utility vehicles lately. These look like a less gaudy version of the Mercedes G-Wagon and appeal to my sensibilities.
A lot of pickups are boxy. The Cybertruck isn't exactly svelte, but it apparently has much better aero and mileage. I've been wondering for awhile: Would a sloped bed cover going from the top of the cab to the gate increase the mileage of any pickup truck by some whopping amount? It seems like the aero would go from "ginormously" bad, to just "meh," which could still be a lot.
With the right kind of aerodynamics you can get a sort of bubble of air of roughly the right shape. Having a hard surface of that shape (wouldn't be exactly sloped as much as a bubble shape without discontinuities on the trailing edge) would be optimal, but you get 'ginormously bad' by having a sharp discontinuity without any turbulence generation.
That can be either the little nubs of high performance cars, or something like Airtabs that are meant for big-rig trucks. And either way you don't get to increase the mileage by a whopping amount as there are still probably shape issues on the leading edge of the vehicle, plus sheer surface area. To do amazing streamlining the whole thing has to be a bubble, including the front edge of the vehicle.
The tonneau cover industry likes to quote a senior-thesis type paper from university engineering students that even one of those improves aerodynamics by 10%.
And modern trucks aren't as bad as they used to be.
Modern trucks are better than they used to be, but they seem to give most of the efficiency back in terms of larger towing/payload capacity. It's absolutely bonkers how capable a "half ton pickup" can be equipped compared to 20 years ago.
Cool product, but that website sucks. I can't read the paragraph half-way down the landing page because their shitty custom scrolling handler keeps skipping past it.
Why do some webdevs think they need to re-invent scrolling?
This my friend is a deeper problem in our society, not limited to web design. Literally everything sucks if you look at it with a certain pragmatic and utilitarian lens. It's optimized for marketing. We're deranged, confused and unable to function properly - our eyesight has just been limited to quarterly earnings. Our ancestors from 1950s would be appalled at the state of current products and services.
People who were adults in 1950 are often still alive. I don't know that the ones I know have strong opinions either way. They certainly like iPads after never getting the hang of computers...
It will be interesting to see how the larger issue of "ownership" is going to play out in an iCar (TM) world .
Considering that you may still legally own the car but you're only licensing out your car manufacturer's software, it doesn't take much imagination of getting physically restrained by your cars' over the air capabilities:
- Missed an installment on your lease/financing plan? -> Grounded
- Took your car in for service at an non-authorized shop? (think Apple disabling third party charging equipment) -> Grounded
- (Some malicious actor injecting ransomware -> Grounded)
Vehicles are already far more regulated than smartphones, it's not a stretch to imagine that "turning off your car" for something like taking it to a non-authorized shop should be illegal. (Utilities, for example, can't turn off your heat in winter for nonpayment in many states.)
That said, Deere's made a business of it, so what do I know?
Yeah. Tesla is pretty much the apple computer of the electric vehicle world, and they've set a bad precedent for ownership of electric cars.
I think if market forces are allowed to decide fairly (they won't be) that consumers will choose a vehicle they own and have the right to repair over a Tesla that's licensed and can be bricked remotely at any time.
I'm unclear on whether or not this actually lets you avoid that. The concept truck seems to have most of the goofy Tesla knockoff tablet stuff from the Mustang Mach E that they pulled the motor and battery from.
Similarly, I have more than a little trepidation at the quoted price point -- does that include the motor and the electronics and all the smarts to run both? Do I need their fancy dashboard from the concept? Is it included? etc. etc.
Disclaimer: I worked for Ford until the beginning of this year, so some of skepticism is likely sour grapes, but some of it is because I saw what difficulties there were in changing years and years of assumptions on a dime because you went from an ICE to a BEV.
It should. All you need is to provide it the high voltage input, and an ECU to control the motor. None of those need to be integrated into the 'giant tablet', they aren't even integrated into that tablet on Tesla vehicles, either.
I assume what you'd get with the crate motor is similar to what you'd get with any crate motor: You get the motor, the transmission (probably, since it's usually part of an EV motor package), the drive circuitry, and that's about it. ECU, HV battery, drive axles, etc are on your nickel.
Do you have some more insights in Ford in this subject or any other thing. I am interested in cars. (Hence my name I guess, which wasn't really a well thought out name.)
The zero-privacy is frightening. The ability to (technically and buried in the fine print) push an update that makes your car stop at every McDonalds or accidentally brick your 50k+ device is also frightening. Heck, yesterday or the day before there were (unconfirmed) stories on HN about an OTA Tesla update causing collisions.
You can however retrofit your older truck with a more modern radio if you like. You can repair or upgrade a part of it (like a side panel) or just rip out the radio and install a new $200 dollar one that gets digital FM, Bluetooth and USB audio. Oh, that's another feature that doesn't exist in Teslas.
This will be useful in the boating industry as well.
Most inland waterway inboards use marin-ized crate engines; often this is the Chevy line (v6, v8s), but the Ford Raptor V8 provided a nice alternative in ~2016.
281HP is also right in line with the market ~280-320hp.
Friend here did an electric conversion of a pontoon boat as a covid lockdown hobby project. Got an electric marine motor from china, bank of batteries at the stern and a modest solar panel (his dock is north/south, so he can tie up with it facing south). Range is a few tens of miles, but it's a pontoon boat, that's plenty for a nice afternoon cruise on the river. The fact that it's almost totally silent is perfect for the application. Recharges on its own in a day or two, no shore connection needed.
It's not ucommon to have AC installed to docks/piers/marinas. these are useful for lifts (capable of lifting up to 10k lbs), accessories (AC, refrigerators, microwaves for cabin cruisers).
Electric boats are more common in Europe, Correct Craft makes the 220e in its lineup this year.
Here in the US, I've never seen a slip with anything other than a 120v connection. And I'm pretty sure you'd pop circuits like crazy if more than a few boats on a dock tried to draw the full amperage.
It makes more sense in Europe where you already have 240v. But the marinas here just aren't set up for this.
Pontoon boat would not use the Ford crate motor from the article, they use 55-110lb thrust electric trolling motors.
Example: Minn Kota Pontoon Freshwater Electric-Steer Bow-Mount Trolling Motor with Digital Maximizer & PowerDrive Foot Control, 48" Shaft
Most folks don't use their boat all day each day so it can sit and charge for days between uses and often on a use you aren't going far, then you anchor and hang out.
Do you avoid carrying your phone with you too, to avoid a large corporation with a known predilection for cooperating with law enforcement knowing where you are at all times?
It's easier to leave your phone at home or in a faraday bag than putting your vehicle in either. If your phone is part of your vehicle, it's pretty hard to go anywhere without them.
Bingo, and well said. Buying a Tesla and then ripping out all the bits that treat me as the driven rather than the driver, would basically leave me with a bare chassis and powertrain anyway, and that hardly seems sane.
That's the reason why I postponed selling my Jaguar X308.
When time comes I will convert it to electric without dependency of software-updates over the air, no trackers, and maximum privacy and style:)
Excellent. The PEV revolution could open the way for a flourishing of unique autos that support privacy and maintainability. Or it could be a DRM locked down dystopia.
Sadly, I expect this to happen. People don't care for privacy and data-hoarding, regulators are slow and will not draw the hard line quickly in hope to satisfy corporations or political donors.
I just hope that conversion EV's will not be outlawed.
I see a future in which the problems that we have with Apple's products (hard repairability, closed ecosystem) will slip into digitization in auto industry and SaaS will be everywhere.
I am told that Tesla can indeed build cars without transceivers, but they don't really advertise the option (and staff don't even always know it exists). There are many diplomats/officials/military that would never be able to buy or operate a Tesla if that weren't the case, I think.
I've a preorder for a cybertruck and I intend to refuse delivery if they can't build me one without radios.
I do use paper maps as my phone doesn't support apps or maps.
They're surprisingly useful.
Payphones, nope. Still got a flip phone. Yep, can be used to track me, but I don't take it everywhere.
Also, your position seems to be something like, If you can't be perfectly private from every possible angle, any choice enhancing privacy imperfectly is silly. I don't agree with that.
>Also, your position seems to be something like, If you can't be perfectly private from every possible angle, any choice enhancing privacy imperfectly is silly.
That wasn't my position. I'm sorry it was easy to assume it was. I was saying that it is very impractical to drive without a smartphone and that it is tracking you in a more ubiquitous way.
>I was saying that it is very impractical to drive without a smartphone
Man, I remember driving in the 80s, we just wandered around lost for two decades. I live in West Undershirt, PA now because I just happened to end up there when I went out for pizza. One time, around 1998, I went to visit a friend in Houston. All I had were some sketchy instructions given over email, and I ended up a warlord ruling over the stretch of I-45 between Juan's Tacos and the Sherwin-Williams.
>I was saying that it is very impractical to drive without a smartphone
Dude, I think you should really question this. I've been smartphone free for over a year. It's... easy. In fact, easier than having a smartphone in many ways!
So strange how quickly our society became psychologically chained to these blipping bleeping distracting infernal machines.
I've sometimes considered going back to a flip phone as a daily driver. I've settled instead for treating the smartphone as a tool rather than a lifestyle. If I'm not using it for navigation, location gets turned off. I don't do discussion forums on it, general web surfing is right out, and anything from Facebook got ripped out when I bought it (with one thing that couldn't be removed getting disabled).
A side benefit is that I get 2-3 days' life out of my battery and still have about 30% left when I plug it in.
>I was saying that it is very impractical to drive without a smartphone and that it is tracking you in a more ubiquitous way.
As someone who has stuck with a flip phone all along, its extremely practical. We had no trouble getting around before smartphones, and its still no trouble.
If you're trying to hide from the government, sure. But if you're trying to keep companies from sharing your data, keeping it limited to the phone does keep the same data in fewer hands.
Not trying to be snarky, but if you use your brain to figure out where you are going (perhaps referring to paper or digital maps before leaving), you learn your route, understand the geography of your location, and don't create a permanent dependency on being connect to the internet.
As a consultant in the 90s, I had to go to hundreds of client locations all over the Bay Area. I had a Thomas map book for each county and had to waste much brain space and time figuring it all out. Going back seems insanely primitive.
Before iPhones, humans had a rather impressive ability to create a mental map of a city. Upon seeing or hearing an address, they could rapidly plan a path to the location with nothing more than their own mind!
This is missing the point, I think. The point is not to be disconnected entirely, it’s to have control over that connection. While driving, one can turn off their phone, run a fully open-source device, old-school GPS, or whatever. But cars don’t give much if any control over the software they’re running or their broader connectivity. They’re oft becoming highly-integrated proprietary devices.
Maybe, but in the most paranoid case it’s a lot more practical and straightforward to put a small device in a faraday cage or remove the battery than doing so for the car being actively driven.
Big Brother to me is still the gov't vs individual EvilCorps hoovering up data to make a buck. Both could still be "the man", but to me Big Brother is specific. Maybe I have the term wrong or has it become more encompassing?
EvilCorps are hoovering up a hell of lot more data than I voluntarily give them. I give no data voluntarily to FB, yet with all of their track bullshit they take it from me. I have no idea if a website is using their code or not, so by me browsing said website is not me giving them my permission. Same with Googs and their analytics.
I use options to stop stuff as well, but that's the exception to the rule for EvilCorps hoovering up unsuspecting data. Even with my attempts at blocking other people are submitting information about me as well (perhaps unknowingly on their part such is the greed of EvilCorp). Again, I did not provide that information voluntarily so it should also not fall under the 3rd party ruling
1st time I drove across the US to see stuff was the summer of 1992. I put 10000 miles on the car zig-zagging across the country, up the west coast and to Alaska.
It was a counterpoint to his sneer, I felt like it was a productive re-contextualization of their narrow viewpoint. I am really surprised people seem to be missing the parent comments snark but not mine, it was really on the nose.
I was sincerely not trying to be snarky. I'm sorry you took it that way. I am actually GenX, so I know all too well what it was like back in the days of paper maps and pay phones. I couldn't imagine going back as they seem barbaric now.
Ah, my sincerest apologies. I guess it was hard for me to see it through any other lens, I was very much expecting a technophile versus traditionalist discourse to break out in this thread and so I was primed to read your words just one way. I even re-read your comment after others were discussing mine to make sure I wasn't being an idiot and was still certain. I suppose I was being an idiot!
Sorry again, I shouldn't have been snarky in either case, I was just so darn ready to have that discussion.
They were mocking someone for choosing to do without technology, it was just a snippy retort. Why aren't you jumping down their throat?
edit: Turns out I was wrong about the parent's intent. For what it's worth, I do actually drive in silence a lot. There is something about a vehicle in transit that temporarily relieves you of responsibilities outside of the drive, and it's a great time to reflect. I could reflect on this comment thread, for example. Two times in the past few months I've been wrong about someone's intent on HN and met them with a little too much spice than was fair, that's worth reflecting on.
I sometimes drive in complete silence. The friction between the tires and the asphalt is close to white noise. It contains a range of high and low frequencies that you can't easily filter out, something that I tried to deal with at a computer vision class project involving self-driving tech. Also it can be amazingly therapeutic.
Updates are a good thing. Since you said "Teslas in particular" you are misinformed about them being auto updating. It is true that they do automatically download the updates, but the updates are opt in.
Also, Tesla allows opt out for data collection from the car.
In fact, it seems like you will be very surprised to learn, the default setting value is opt out.
They also do collect a lot of driving data that they do not associate with the VIN or any other identifier, in my understanding.
You could argue that when the driver opts in to anonymous data collection (again, no identification of the vehicle, etc.) it is still getting exterior pictures of their home and driveway. OK. But, opt in.
There are tradeoffs. You allow collection of some data, or not… up to you. That seems like a fair setup to me.
>invariably turn your vehicle into an always-connected, auto-updating tablet, with zero privacy.
"Invariably"… no. "Always connected"… no. Often connected, certainly. "Auto-updating"… no. "Zero privacy"… no. This seems like a really poorly informed take, when it's opt out by default. Yet you currently have the top comment in this article.
You're making a framing error but I see I could have been more clear. The term opt-in is used to describe the entire scheme as a UX concept. The setting value itself (opt in versus opt out) is a concept at a different level.
To be more clear I should have said "the default setting value is opt out"… fixed; thank you.
Note that this is just the motor, you'll still need a battery, traction inverter and a control system, none of which are cheap. By the time you are done this system for a regular vehicle with a properly engineered battery enclosure will likely cost way upwards of $15K.
Which, hilariously, is very much in the realm of a "normal" engine conversion project. There probably aren't many Vanagon owners on HN but the hacker mentality very much applies. The two most popular gas conversions quote out in the 12k-18k range. It's not apples-to-apples with what it would take to integrate this crate motor, but it's not orders of magnitude off.
$15k is way too low of an estimate. Even if you have a machine shop and the skills can do all the machining and welding yourself. To do the conversion, you'd need (just for components in addition to the motor): controller/inverter (a hefty one), DC-DC converter, charger + BMS, battery, cooling system, accessory adapters for AC/heat, brake pump, etc. + a pile of contactors and wire and other high voltage components.
Then you gotta build motor mounts, adapt to existing manual transmission or figure out some other gear reduction + attach to axles, cases for batteries and other components, wiring, etc.
It'd be a big project and probably around $40k all in by the time you were done.
I can see some of the EV conversion specialty shops using this Ford motor as part of their services though because it is higher wattage than most of the products the DIY market is used to.
Note that this is a higher voltage motor than most DIY electric car conversions are done with, too. So harder to work with safely and harder to configure battery pack.
That's completely reasonable, and I don't disagree with anything you've said. Still not an order of magnitude though! Anyone doing an engine conversion on a project car is burning money anyway, and while it won't be for everyone... 40k is not in the realm of impossible for a lot of the car DIY crowd. In fact, of all the circles I've ever touched on, car mod crowds are probably the most willing to spend ludicrous bucks on an unnecessary project.
Make fun of the rich guy buying $7000 status watches, god knows I will, but there are thousands of relatively "poor" people in every American city spending 10's of thousands on their shitboxes... and I love it.
> Make fun of the rich guy buying $7000 status watches, god knows I will
I'm going off-topic, but just a heads up, there's a fairly large watch community out there (https://www.watchuseek.com/forums/) that have a passion for watches and treat it as a hobby like any other. They're probably one of the friendliest online communities I've come across. I haven't bought any thousand dollar watches, but I've spent a decent amount of time reading about watches and releases, and I know there's a lot of people out there that save up their money for years, decades, or life, to buy a $7,000 grail watch they've dreamed of owning. They might look like rich guys wearing a dumb Rolex status watch to an outsider, but sometimes that couldn't be further from the truth.
Ah, I see. I've been thinking far too long about buying a Sinn 556i as my daily watch. Well, we can be certain no one will poke fun at Sinn watches, because no one outside the watch community will ever recognize them on the wrist.
$15k is way too low just like it's way too low for an engine swap.
In that, you can do it for $15k as your starting budget but you'll have to cheap out everywhere, get lucky many different ways, sell the things you swap out and still have it creep upwards.
Likewise, unless you're starting with a junkyard motor $15k is probably not enough.
A proper turnkey conversion for a V8 Miata for example ends up right around... $40k.
Exactly. Anybody that looks at the $3900 price tag for the motor and that has never done anything like this before might be tempted to think that they can afford it. If you're going to build it from junk yard stuff then you will be able to stay under $20K, otherwise it will likely be much more.
It's not in the specs, but there's breakdowns of the whole Mustang Mach E drivetrain by Munro Live on YouTube, and they get into the battery pack, inverter, everything else. This is the rear motor out of the Mach E, minus the inverter.
The Mach E battery pack is 450 volts. So after going through the inverter, it'll be a bit less than that, but still very high.
Almost all commercial non-DIY EVs have quite high voltages, 300 and over at least. DIY EVs tend to use lower voltages but at higher amps.
EDIT: though it would not surprise me to find that you could run this motor fine at lower voltages but with higher current
Vanagon Syncro owner here! I can’t imagine ever parting with mine.
My stated plan is to convert it to electric in 2025.
There’s good progress being made forging a path - see the DreamEV guys on YouTube for a currently ongoing 2wd Tesla vanagon conversion. They documented all the steps, are pretty entertaining, and just finished like 2 weeks ago.
If I was to do it now, I’d go Tesla engines front and rear to keep the AWD and ditch the engine and both diffs, which are the most troublesome part of the syncro anyway.
In 5 years, who knows. Maybe I’ll transplant the parts from a scrapped 2023 Cyber Truck!
Just as the other comment said, "that's only the conversion kit". I didn't want to wax poetic about the various input costs to a project like that but let's just say I and several of my friends know how much they can cost on both the upper and lower ends.
If you DIY hack it together with junkyard motor and spend nothing on anything you can get away with a self-made conversion for ~5k. If you're buying your parts from a kit like these links and using new crate motors then you will never get under 12k. Not to mention the cost differences of you doing the work vs a mechanic. The cheapest turn-key mechanic-done conversion with a new motor won't be under 15k and will likely push in the 20k+ range.
Drivetrain labor is a huge cost. If your transmission goes out you are likely to get a refurbed transmission rather than fixing the one you have. It’s much cheaper to rebuild them ahead of time and ship them around than to do it on demand.
It’s very likely you will see a disproportionate number of conversions being done for vehicles that are experiencing transmission or engine failure, because then you are comparing the cost of conversion against a $4-5k repair bill.
Yeah, I feel like crate motor is a misnomer here. When I think of crate motor, I think of something that has everything necessary to put it into a chassis and crank it over.
Not including a traction inverter or control system is like buying a LS crate engine without an ECU.
From Ford. There is a huge drivetrain elements market from Ford, Mopar, GM (whose terrific LS series of engines are in hundreds of thousands of street rods, race cars etc). This is a natural progression and an encouraging continuation (for now, bureaucrats willing) of the long tradition of US car building choices.
The challenge for EV conversion is not the motor, which is simple, it's the battery skateboard and the technology to process the stored energy into viable mileage.
EV's are a huge fire risk, my concern would be fast EV's and inadequate battery protection in a converted vehicle + impact damage to charged batteries = inferno.
There is plastics tech on the horizon to stop damaged ganged up batteries in a runaway thermal event from trapped energy contagion but right now little effort has been made to isolate batteries to prevent this.
Do you think it would be easier or safer to convert a truck with a full length bed? Like could just put it as a layer in the back bed without messing with the chassis?
I just started driving again. Got an old Tacoma. New trucks are way too big and most don't even have full beds. Would love to just keep a 'classic beater truck' design but EV! Cheaper than just buying a new one anyways.
Yes. I was hanging around with a homebrew EV club 10 years ago (I like all types of vehicles) and most of the conversions were small trucks with the batteries in the bed and ev conversion under hood.
The sweet spot is still late 70's/early 80's trucks which are relatively simple, still made out of steel and are relatively easy to adapt.
In the event of fire it is relatively easy to install a big lever and spring loaded connectors to ungang the battery connections.
I'm guessing the ICE equivalent is swapping out a petrol engine for a biogas or LPG compatible engine. That is, not just the engine but all related plumbing as well.
>Weighing in at a svelte 205 pounds, this electric dynamo delivers 281 horsepower, 317lb.-ft. of torque, and generates a maximum speed of 13,800rpm. The Eluminator crate engine package includes a high-voltage motor-to-traction invertor harness, low-voltage harness connector, and vent tube assembly.
so, it sounds like the the motor traction inverter is included. Controller and the batter obviously still costs $$.
That's a bit strange since the text itself elsewhere says no traction inverter included.
The text there says includes "inverter harness"... What does this really mean? You sure they're simply not referring to the inverter mount point / wiring connector at the top of the motor?
"Does NOT include:
Traction inverter
Control system"
If it included the inverter it'd be an incredible deal -- like half the price of equivalently spec'd motors from other manufacturers -- which is why there's no way it does.,
I think you're right. they are just saying it is pre-wired. well, it would be handy if they had the rest of the stuff available and already pre-integrated.
It's weird they're selling the motor without a controller/inverter. I can see they probably don't want to give away any of their own IP but they could at least offer a Curtis or whatever controller that's compatible with it.
Not so weird, when you consider that a crate motor can be paired with a turbo, tuned exhaust, different gearbox and so on. It's just the motor. The other parts are going to depend on your application. You could easily run this motor in a lower voltage application but you'd have to supply a matching controller (and you'll have to live with lower output power and torque).
Tesla's opposition to Right to Repair has chilled the brand to many frugal car buyers who drive their daily beater 20+ years and 300,000+ miles. Being able to buy an affordable electric crate motor will open up the world of electric to those who like to keep their technology for the long haul.
It seems to be a trend in electric vehicles. I just bought an electric scooter which came with literature warning that my warranty would be voided if I so much as undid a single bolt. It's rather jarring, coming from the world of cycling, where stripping your vehicle down to atoms and reassembling it is considered normal maintenance.
Incidentally, the same literature claimed my warranty would also be voided if I failed to maintain the scooter properly. I'm not sure where to go from there...
And in many cases the warnings are there because the law comes down hard on manufacturers that enable bypassing the (mandatory) governor systems which limit the speed (and sometimes the torque) at which the vehicles can operate.
Yeah, but warnings like that confuse owners about what their rights are. I'm starting to think there should be a penalty for businesses who assert rights beyond what they actually have.
You're free to ignore those warning stickers because the onus is on the manufacturer to prove that you opening the device caused the issue. Warranty stickers are a scare tactic.
It matters less where the company is than where you are. I mean, sure, a company in China can refuse to honor the warranty, but they risk losing the ability to sell their goods in the US.
It's not US-centrism in general. You said only 5% of the population is subject to the law, which made that point. If you're like "we in the EU don't do that", fine. However, you then said that the issue was the company that made your scooter was outside the US. That implies you are in the US.
Look, if I offer you a peanut-butter and raspberry jelly sandwich, and you say "I cannot eat that, I'm allergic", fine. If you say "Well, my doctor said I'm allergic to all tree nuts", I would point out peanut butter isn't a tree nut and you can still eat it. If you come back complaining about how "people aren't sensitive to raspberry allergies", I'm going to claim that was bad communication on your part.
>However, you then said that the issue was the company that made your scooter was outside the US. That implies you are in the US.
I don't agree. Living in the US is not the default state of humanity. People on the internet are not USian until proven otherwise. I never mentioned the US. The US was only in the conversation to begin with because of a faulty assumption, which I attempted to delicately point out, even if I stopped short of outright contradicting it.
In fact, I was trying to avoid discussing my location at all, as I normally do on HN and indeed any other online platform as standard opsec. I wasn't asking for legal advice and it was not relevant to the point I was making.
Now, after a parade of HN commentators just assumed I was in their country, I am finally forced to clarify - no, I am not in the US. I am also in the 95%. What are the odds!
The fact that I need to clarify this at all, never having mentioned the US, is US-centrism. Try rereading the thread, but substitute, I dunno, "Kenya". You'll see how weirdly it reads.
I mean, you're not from the US, and maybe English is not your first language. However, specifically clarifying the company you purchased from is in the 95% implies there is a difference between you and the company and is read by many as "the company is in the 95%, and I am specifying that because I am not".
I never assumed you were in the 5% until you said that phrase (in fact, since you pointed out most people don't live in the US, I assumed you also did not). However, that phrasing implies you're in the US. It's just the way that language works.
I'm happy to summarize the thread using Kenya:
X: There is a law in Kenya concerning contract law.
Y: That law is irrelevant because most of the world is not in Kenya. In fact, in a recent contract my counterparty is not in Kenya.
X: Well, if your counterparty does business in Kenya with a Kenyan they are bound by Kenyan law.
Y: How dare you presume I am bound by Kenyan law! I'm not in Kenya.
X: The way your post was written made it sound like you were in Kenya because you were calling out your counterparty not being bound by Kenyan law.
Y: Why does everyone assume I'm in Kenya? I don't want to tell people where I live.
Mmmm, how much of the electric side is actually serviceable? I think you're confusing e-bikes with regular bikes. The electric side is probably entirely off limits to people and what you're experiencing is the vestigial aspects of the regular bike underneath.
As someone who own's a Tern GSD and a Tern Vektron too, I've found the unserviceable Bosch electric drivetrain to not be refreshingly serviceable at all.
This may have changed in year since I last had to look and might vary by region, but in US Bosch have been incredibly strict about parts and software tools for the motors - only approved dealers can order a brand new replacement motor, for example. You cannot order one as private individual easily (much like a Tesla...). That's unheard of for bike parts generally speaking.
For sure, all of the parts that are shared with traditional non e-bikes (group sets, brakes, wheels, etc etc) are still easily privately serviceable by end user. The Bosch electric drivetrain, not so much.
Solved by Tesla building EVs to million-mile specs. Between lasting 3-4x longer with few repairs, and gas savings over long usage, TCO is far less than ICE.
Running numbers, I'm seeing a "Tri+FSD" Cybertruck paying for itself at 410,000 miles just in gas savings, then amounting to a free second vehicle over the next >400,000 miles. That should make the frugal overcome "right to repair" issues.
I am in no way a mechanics/chassis expert but I have been involved in EV projects in the past and there is a substantial amount of design that goes into protecting EV batteries from impact or perfuration.
I agree that it would be much more sustainable to convert our old fleet of cars into EV but unless someone brings forward a big leap in battery protection for these conversions, to me it still feels relatively unsafe when compared with a vehicle designed from the ground up as an EV.
The idea here is definitely not fleet conversion - this looks to target the crate motor industry, which is really the realm of high-end "rod shops" who build one-off vehicles for monied buyers (DIY enthusiasts, by and large, buy and build junkyard engines, not crate motors).
These vehicles already are generally built without an eye for safety or compliance with standards of any form, and very few are driven a significant number of miles after the conversion is complete, so I'm not sure this is a meaningful issue for this specific product.
Pretty much the obvious - they are drop in engine swaps sold in a crate. These offer a somewhat straightforward way to upgrade a powertrain and often come with brand recognition (like the "Hellcrate"), certifications to a certain power level, pre-made engine control tuning, or sometimes even a warranty.
However, in the internal combustion world, they generally represent a poor value compared to sourcing a used engine block and upgrading it with aftermarket parts. So they're by and large the domain of wealthy buyers who are usually paying a shop for a "build."
Imagine being a first responder and going on a call to save someone from a DIY electric vehicle. EVs present an entirely different set of safety considerations, but at least the major brands have thought through these things and provide safety features, documentation, and training. I doubt the truck in the link has a guide like this: https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/downloads/2021_Mod...
Is there any reason to believe a DIY EV conversion is any more dangerous than significant modifications to vehicles with traditional combustion engines?
Nobody knows where the battery disconnect is on some DIY car.
Here's the first responder's manual for the Chevy Bolt.[1] Under the rear seat, which lifts up, there is a big emergency disconnect handle. Unlatch handle, pull handle up, pull out disconnect. NFPA has vehicle guides for first responders, and fire trucks presumably carry those in some form.
In accidents that require the fire department, it seems not common that you could get to the rear seat with enough freedom of maneuver to follow that procedure. No doubt that's been considered, so what am I missing?
The major difference (Apart from the electrocution risk when doing extractions) is that in an EV fire, Hydrogen Flouride can also be released, which is an uber nasty colorless gas.
From what I was explained it is a grim mechanism, the gas reacts with water, forming a highly corrosive acid. In humans the gas reacts with the moisture in your eyes and your airway forming an acid and doing a massive chemical burn. You basically choke with burned lung tissue while going blind all at the same time.
Gas detection was a big health and safety component in an EV charger company I worked for in the past.
Old vehicles are really unsafe before you even consider switching them to EV. Overall, I'm not sure what the outcome would be, could go either way depending on specific factors, but presumably for old cars, long distance travel is not the point of the exercise.
Agreed. A typical EV has thousands of cells and the way these are placed in the chassis and how the interconnects are done is a major safety aspect. You can't just toss a bunch of cells into an enclosure and call it a day, I suspect that for each and every car model you'd want to design a custom enclosure if you want do do this safely.
I'm in the process of increasing the capacity of the battery of my e-bike more than fourfold and even that is not a simple job.
I sort of suspect what will happen is small time manufacturers will come out with sealed battery packs designed for specific applications. I.e. I want to electrify my Supra, I'm gonna buy it from a shop that makes them specifically for my generation of Supra.
I'm imagining the same thing, and I imagine we'll eventually have battery cell inter-operability standards for cars that make that even easier.
In the past we didn't make it mandatory to have engines be easily swapped to other models of vehicle, but I think we're more conscious of re-usability and the long term lifecycle of vehicles and part of making sure that's efficient I feel is making sure I can take a battery pack from a crashed 2025 E-Supra nd put it in my 2032 E-Skyline.
I think it's a risk that a lot of people are willing to take. 99% of the EVs on the road will probably be production models. These conversions will probably be safer than most of the junky, poorly maintained, farting gas cars driving around today anyways.
I would speculate the problem with most conversions will be about increased mass, low quality suspension parts, and too small brakes. When gross vehicle weight goes up by 50% that will cause a TON of problems. I think this may be why pickup trucks are a good place to start.
The first question that comes to mind here is if Ford's going to offer a crate battery pack too. A crate motor in and of itself is huge, but an electric crate powertrain that's equivalent to GM's Connect and Cruise, would be huge for people looking for a mostly drop-in electric conversion.
Between the frame rails underneath the cab. Trucks are different from cars (unibody design, like a shell) in that they are body-on-frame. It looks like a giant ladder and they are generally 6-8" tall or more for HD trucks. You would create your own "skateboard" if you will then lower the original cab back down on top.
That does appear to be where Ford tucked the batteries for this one, this not-so-great video[1] does slide under and show them briefly. Not sure how it has two motors though, I thought the whole point of crate motors was as a drop in replacement for the existing engine (plus of course then they'd cost $7,800, before the batteries).
Sorry, I meant "seems like not such a great advertisement for DIY conversions if it completely changes the way the drivetrain works (and costs twice as much as the price of one crate motor, never mind the battery etc.)".
I grew up working on cars. It's really not that hard, especially with electric vehicles/retrofitting. The cab is attached to the frame with like 6 bolts. This is a very common practice in shops working on trucks - sometimes it is easiest to just lift the entire cab to work on the truck.
Doing restomod work is a lot of fun if you are into that sort of thing. You get to play 'car designer' and rebuild a totally new vehicle/powertrain while trying to make it look original.
Heard that modern truck engine compartments are getting so cramped you gotta lift the cab to even change all the spark plugs. This way dealers can charge $500-$800 for a plug change. (And diesels, which don't have plugs, have even more stuff ($$$) crammed in instead.) It's getting to the point where having the know-how plus equipment to lift a cab is becoming outright essential if you don't want to pay thousands for routine maintenance.
This is work, for sure, but honestly, it's one of the easiest chassis fabrications that someone can undertake. It's a box that sits between frame rails. You'll have to make considerations for chassis flex and ensuring it can handle the weight, but those are relatively easy.
And like moving a mountain, you do it one step at a time. I've done body lifts -- remove truck body, insert spacers, replace truck body -- with just a jack and a couple of 2x4's. Not hard, just takes time and patience.
And a niche that will definitely see players working to fill, if the last 100 years or so of aftermarket & tuner culture teaches us anything.
The first things I did when I bought a BMW convertible about 10 years ago was order BMW specific aftermarket wheels from a company that only sells wheels for BMWs. I also ordered aftermarket electronics from two companies that only market to BMW enthusiasts.
There will definitely be companies coming out with bolt-on battery packs for things like Jeep Wranglers and old trucks like this F-100. If bolt-on isn't possible, then it will be kits that the engineering has already been done and you just need to measure and weld on the mounts and then bolt on the battery pack and run the wiring.
My maths has it at approx 10,000 cubic inches of battery weighing in at 450kg, which rought and dirty is a 43 gallon tank (I may be way out) which is around 120kg of petrol.
Looks like standard is around 26 gallons (up to 36) so not miles away on volume, call it 1.5x. Wight and how you distribute it are going to be the real issue here at 3.75x the density.
If this happens (and it should), I would expect them to target the Mustang crowd first, simply because so many have been made and the Mustang performance mod scene is very strong.
Ideally the base battery pack would fit where fuel tanks are with additional packs connected to a power management unit for extra range.
On the Mustang case, more carefully design would be needed to make sure the weight distribution doesn’t make it worse. While driving in straight lines seem to be a popular sport, one would expect their car to be able to corner as well.
Maybe not Honda, the Japanese manufactures blew decade betting on hydrogen. They are now years behind other manufactures who decided in a single meeting (all that is needed) that hydrogen was a stupid route to take.
People talking about converting vehicles are missing the point.
Ford wants to convert people. The people who would buy a pickup from them today, and aren't sure about this electric motor business -- they need to see something cool and reasonably aspirational.
They'll look at the F-100 at big car shows, and a few years later see e-crate conversions at the local car shows, and then when the price of an electric F-150 has dropped enough, that's what they'll be buying.
Isn’t the electric F-150 already comparable in price to regular F-150s (around $40k)? So these prospective F-150 buyers shouldn’t be waiting for a price drop right?
Not entirely correct, under F-150 (and Heavy Duty 250 etc) brand they sell essentially two different vehicles (or three, if you count Raptor), which differ in price more than twice. Non-luxury version is priced low, has no extras and oriented to price-sensitive work truck segment of the market. King Ranch/Platinum (and Limited nobody buys) are premium tiers with all the latest tech and amenities, which are priced like luxury cars. Although both are “F-150s” they are oriented at distinctly different market segments.
So, just to be clear, they call out F-150s over $50k, not all F-series.
That's right about the dividing line between work truck and luxury truck. <$50k buys a SuperCrew XLT 4x4 with the max tow package. Basically, it's the best "work truck" F-150 you can get.
Everything beyond that are luxury trim packages. Heck, you can't even get a 8' bed unless you go for the lower tier trims. Which points to the XL/XLTs being the work trims and the Platinum/Raptor/Tremor/King Ranch being luxury trims.
> People talking about converting vehicles are missing the point.
the point of a crate motor is literally converting vehicles though. That's what they're for.
> They'll look at the F-100 at big car shows, and a few years later see e-crate conversions at the local car shows, and then when the price of an electric F-150 has dropped enough, that's what they'll be buying.
The cars that people build with crates don't really go very far usually. The people that complain about road trips in an electric car aren't using the car they built. This could be their chance to play with electric to prove its good enough to ditch the ICE F150
More importantly, this niche market will be the people making YouTube videos and attending car shows. These people will have huge influence on more casual Ford pickups fans, and will help sway them to electric
One of the things we should be pushing for is standardizing engine mount geometries for the last generations of ICE vehicles, so that every vehicle built after say 2030 can have a COTS electric conversion kit that works for it.
What you want is economies of scale. You need to be able to design a drop-in replacement that works for millions of vehicles, not one-offs for 25,000 vehicles. An electric conversion will be made fairly early for the most popular vehicles and everything that uses the same engine (eg, Accord, Camry, Jetta). The Mazda rotary engines will not. They’ll end up being taxed to death, unless someone can make cheap adapters.
Engine swaps have been going on for decades. Swapping a GM LS into a compatible frame is quite common. The mount points are standardized on the engine block so you only need to weld the matching mounts to the auto frame.
I don't see much of a demand for conversions for Accords, Camrys and Jettas. These are popular, reliable, yet disposable cars. Those buyers would be better served buying a new EV. I do see a market for car people cars: MX-5, S2000, GTIs, 4Runner, and FJ40s.
I'm not so sure. If you have to swap out the engine, trans, brakes, there won't be much left of the classic car. It'll just be a modern car, but much less safe.
I regularly attend car shows (typically domestic, mostly 1950-70's) with my dad. The last few years there have been a few pseudo rat rods that have used scavenged drivetrains from either Priuses(ii?) or Nissan Leafs. They're typically just looked at as a novelty-- the crowd doesn't take them seriously just by looking at them. They don't make power, and even then, the HP/tq figures wouldn't really be a 1:1 comparison, given that the EV drivetrain has torque from 0rpm. The example I use is an s2000-- it has 240hp, which looks great on paper, but it needs revs to make it-- and torque has the same issue. Demonstrating the power band concept is what will make widespread adoption occur-- otherwise people won't be making an apples to apples comparison. A $4k (plus batteries, adapters, etc.) 300hp/300tq electric motor shouldn't be compared to a $4k Small Block Chevrolet crate engine when the area under the curve for HP/TQ more closely resembles a $8k+ 396 or 454 Big Block (yes, peaks will be higher on the ICE, but safe bet that 1/4 and 0-60 will be close). The value prop is that the EV drivetrain will be higher performance than a traditional ICE.
This ignores that many of the older cars just sound like they're powerful, but in reality would struggle to out-accelerate a modern day v6 commuter car. Plus nostalgia. Boomers who grew up won't suddenly want to put a motor where the engine should go-- no Saturday afternoon oil changes, $300 headers or custom exhausts. Gen X or younger will likely be the target customer here-- I know I have already mentioned the idea of one of these Eluminators to my dad as a swap into his 1965 Chevy C/10 when I first heard about them.
> 300hp/300tq electric motor shouldn't be compared to a $4k Small Block Chevrolet crate engine when the area under the curve
Eh, maybe. Area under the curve doesn't tell the whole story because ICEs have transmissions to keep them in the meat of the powerband past first gear, EVs don't (usually). With the exception of Telsas, EV drivetrains lose a lot of power in the upper rev band, so their highway acceleration is comparatively weak.
But an ICE can be kept in the powerband for as many gears as can be added. Ford's 10R80 keeps the GT between 6200-7500 RPMs between like 20MPH (depending on rear end ratio) and top speed. The average HP under that curve is like 450HP (out of 460hp peak).
Ford is bragging about how the Mach-E GT hits 60 in like 3.5 seconds (faster than any other Mustang, GT500 included), yet glosses over the fact that it traps 100mph in the quarter mile. Which is less than both the 2.3L ecoboost and the previous generation 3.7L V6 managed (around 103mph each) and is a far cry from what the 5.0L can do (115-120), or the GT500 (131).
They end up the reverse situation of the S2k: fast from a stop, slow from a roll. I haven't seen a roll race between a Mach E and a lesser Mustang, but I would bet starting at a 40mph roll, the Mach E would lose, despite being technically superior in power/torque.
Yep, if they're doing an LS swap with a T56, then the modern transmission will be a huge advantage. I was thinking in the sense of something like the more common 4L60E/TH350 (3/4 speed autos) that most people resort to when doing swaps in old cars (at least GM).
I will never buy an electric car until it’s feasible to drive across the country in it without the car dictating my schedule and route. It’s really that simple.
I have a diesel truck right now and I can drive 400 miles on a tank easily, then spend 5 minutes at any gas station off the highway and be right on my way for another 400 miles.
The truth is that they have to put all this crazy luxurious tech into these cars to lure people away from thinking about the things that their old car can do that their new car will be incapable of.
I see initial adoption targeting two car households. For example my spouse and I have a gas powered Honda CRV. It’s fairly new and we plan on keeping it for 10+ years. Just took it on a road trip across the country and it worked really well.
The other car is gas powered, but we could totally replace it with an electric vehicle. Most day to day driving is in a city, and we drive less than 20 miles a day total. So having a vehicle with a 200-300 mile range is ok for that.
However if you are single and only have one vehicle then yeah getting an EV right now is probably not feasible if you do long road trips. I suppose you could fly or get a rental car for those once in a while trips though.
Ford has really been hitting the PR circuit while firing on all cylinders. The lead engineer of the F-150 Lightning was on the cover of Time, and now this.
unsurprising considering how radical their product line revamp has been of late - a ford that doesn't make sedans and an electric SUV "mustang" are pretty big changes for a fairly conservative customer base
No. When Ford says that they will build and sell something, they build and sell it. The pickup featured in the fine article is a concept vehicle, but the motors are production crate motors.
There has never been an FP part that was given a part number, but never made available. They have offered pretty exotic engines, and even the components to convert lesser Mustangs into special edition ones.
>So, Tesla Cybertruck and Tesla FSD are also vaporware, yes?
The parent comment revealed the marketing sleight-of-hand, didn't it? The Cybertruck can be "ordered", therefore it's not vapourware. It doesn't matter that the vehicle doesn't actually exist and the order involves a tiny, refundable deposit.
A gas motor is about the same price. There's no exhaust system for this, and it's smaller than Ford's monstrous modular V8's, so it seems like it'd be an easy retrofit.
But if you were to actually do a conversion:
How does the heating/AC work?
How does your power steering work?
How do the brakes work?
Many things in a standard car work off vacuum. There's no vacuum on an electric engine. Other things run off the serpentine belt.
These things also make running a newer engine in an older car a pain. Sure, the engine from a newer Mustang you find in the junkyard might only be $4,000 but you're going to spend at least another $10-15,000 getting it to run in your older Mustang or F150.
In regards to vacuum, diesels don't produce vacuum since they don't have a throttle, and so they use a vacuum pump. They run off the engine, but I imagine you can get an electric driven one. Also many vehicles use electric driven pumps for power steering.
I think the big thing, as others have pointed out, is buying the batteries and putting them somewhere in an old car.
> But if you were to actually do a conversion: How does the heating/AC work? How does your power steering work? How do the brakes work?
Those are the easy parts because all 3 run off of hydraulics and electricity. As long as they get power supplied to them, they all just work.
Brakes don't even need power, I believe, and can work purely mechanically. Of course you won't have regenerative braking in a retrofit.
> Sure, the engine from a newer Mustang you find in the junkyard might only be $4,000 but you're going to spend at least another $10-15,000 getting it to run in your older Mustang or F150
That's generally an issue with high labor costs and not the car industry in particular.
>> Those are the easy parts because all 3 run off of hydraulics and electricity. As long as they get power supplied to them, they all just work.
Except the heat in your car is transferred from the coolant running through your engine. Which is why the 'heat' in your car doesn't work until you've been driving it for a little bit.
>> Brakes don't even need power, I believe, and can work purely mechanically.
Brakes definitely need power. Have you even driven an older car without power brakes or steering? There's a reason they used to have much larger steering wheels in cars. And most of your brakes are hydraulic with vacuum assist. Turn your ignition off (in a large parking lot) and try to steer or brake your car! The brakes will work once or twice...
You would need to add electric power steering to an older car. You can convert over a Volvo system, get an electric pump, or do it a few other ways.
>> That's generally an issue with high labor costs and not the car industry in particular.
I'm talking just parts. For example, you need a control pack from Ford which contains the ECU and wiring harness which is nearly two thousand dollars, and aftermarket systems aren't even cheaper.
>Brakes don't even need power, I believe, and can work purely mechanically.
Yow. Power brakes have been standard equipment since at least 1950. Disconnect the vacuum line on your brake booster and go for a drive to the grocery store and you will very quickly discover their importance.
How much would it cost in total parts/labor to find someone to buy and restore a 1978-1995 F-150 with new paint job and replacement of rusty parts, and then add this motor and a ridiculous amount of batteries? I'd sign up tomorrow if the opportunity fell out of the sky.
Also is the intention here to just leave it in 3rd gear while running, like the Genovation GXE Electric Corvette mod?
The sky is the limit when it comes to car restoration prices, but if you started with a reasonably straight body and frame without a ton of rust it would likely in the ballpark of 10-15k for the restore and another 25-35k for the EV conversion on the low end to get 100-150ish miles range. You could spend any amount of top of that for a better restore, modern suspension and brakes, or more range.
Old trucks will be among the cheapest to convert since there is tons of space for battery boxes under the hood, between the frame rails, or just in the bed without much cutting or welding. Downside is old truck prices have really jumped in the last few years and are no longer the classic bargains they once were.
There are conversion kits for a number of vehicles already available and I'm sure tons more are coming.
* EV West has an air cooled VW kit for $8000 (plus battery)
* Swindon Powertrains has a Mini kit for £10,000 (plus battery)
* 2ECV has a Citron 2CV kit for £16,000 (inc battery)
* Zero EV is working on a Porsche 911 kit for SCs, G body and 964 that includes DC Fast charging, but I haven't seen pricing yet.
10-15K to restore a classic truck is not possible. Unless you're just talking about getting it to reliably run on the road. If you're talking about a paint job and new interior, and you're not doing it yourself, then you are easily in the 30K+ range.
Series might get cheaper. Keep in mind that just the electrical bits will be $15 to $20K, and depending on how far the truck is gone you could easily spend that much more on getting it serviceable and pretty.
Car restoration rarely is economically viable unless you go for something exotic.
Ah, but that's a reasonable price for something as low-key exotic vintage as an '80s F-150. They're beautiful cars, just like in the article photos. A decent quality Power Ram 250 can go for $35k (and they'll run for another 500k miles in that condition) so 25-50k for an electric restoration isn't that bad.
Cost is not the only factor, the other one is time.
Merely getting an old, broken vehicle back on the road is lot of work. Completely restoring a vehicle to like-new is an order of magnitude more work. Adding in an equipment swap from one version of a model to another (maybe auto->manual swap, or V6-V8 swap) is again so much more work.
Complete conversions like this take an insane amount of time. Probably months of time working on it full time. Part time, you're looking at a multi-year project. There is going to be a lot of trailblazing going on here, and there might only be 3 people in the world who can help you answer your problem.
There's a French startup that does exactly that: https://www.phoenixmobility.co/en/ The company has generated a lot of press but the concept hasn't caught on in other countries so I assume it is not very practical.
It's not a turnkey sort of thing. Every 1981 F-150 is going to be a unique snowflake of rust, broken parts, etc..
There will be some amazing barn finds where you could pull the motor out and bolt in batteries and an electric motor on a weekend and then there will be trucks where you basically rebuild the entire truck from scratch.
What might be interesting is an electric rolling truck chassis production and then various vintage looking bodies you could attach to them.
I'm waiting for something like this IRL. Ford already sells chassis only trucks, so if they would just make that with the battery pack and motors, I could bolt on the body myself.
The main draw for me is the smaller size of this car. I'm not sure why car companies have slowly inflated the size of all vehicles to be extremely large.
Safety is one aspect. Pedestrian crash tests require body panels that are a minimum of ~2.5" out from any crash structure in the car. Plus regulations on things like minimum headlight height, etc.
The other is that adding size to a vehicle adds very little to the cost to produce a car, but it makes the vehicle so much more functional and appealing to buyers. In most of the USA, vehicle size is not a constraint. So the size of one's vehicle is mostly personal preference. And bigger = more useful.
Makes a lot of sense. I think most people are just driving their pickups in the suburbs but want to be able to have a cargo bed when they need it. I really need a specific utility vehicle for agroforestry stuff; I'm likely just not in the target market anymore.
Well, it's a pick-up truck, it's kind of to be expected that they can carry a lot.
There's still plenty of options for compact cars, and if you want to go even smaller, motorcycles. That said, I don't believe there's many small electric cars. Electric motorcycles and bicycles are definitely a thing though.
It's not that. Older pickups that you see on, say, ranches carry plenty, but are not so huge, especially in terms of height, where a small adult barely comes up to the top of the hood if there's even a little bit of a lift.
> That said, I don't believe there's many small electric cars.
Most electric car offerings are small cars. Prior to the current generation of EVs, most manufactures offered "compliance cars" which were EV conversions of whatever the cheapest car the manufacture offered in the USA was.
These were sold almost exclusively in California or NY and were sold at a loss. So like, Fiat 500e, Ford Focus EV, Chevy Spark EV, VW eGolf, etc.
Yes but an older pickup is much more manageable and carries just as much in the bed. For some reason now they are jacking these up, making them wider and longer for no apparent reason. And honestly they haven't added very much to the beds. For that reason, as I'd mostly just need a utility vehicle and not a daily driver, I'd likely rather convert a salvaged 90s Chevy or Ford than buy a F150 lightning, cybertruck, or rivian. Another option would be a side by side (street legal with some modifications) or a Japanese mini truck. The former is available off the shelf with electric power train.
A few use cases I have simply preclude modern pickups. For example, I sometimes need to drive on smaller forest trails which are cut for ATVs. Anything larger than a subcompact SUV can't even navigate these.
Looking forward to seeing this in an old Mini or a Fiero
Shame there aren't photos of the inside of the bed or the rear axle - from the shots under the hood it seems like it would be difficult to fit without losing cargo space
I'd assume most engine swappers would be more interested in something that mounts longitudinally
It was the first 'mid-engined car you could probably find in a junkyard' that came to mind, and I know people have managed to fit Chevy LS motors
Cheap MR2s will normally be rust buckets. That said, I did see someone driving an X1/9 on the GCP a few months ago - there can't be many of those still around
That interior image is gross. It's like they built the cheapest dash / interior they could, then found a big iPad to incongruously glue onto the middle of the dash and called it a day. I hope it's just prototyping for the concept.
They'd make it, if it were legal. There are a thousand laws and regulations that a brand new F100 would fall afoul of, from crash safety to emissions...
I wish we had a tiered set of safety requirements for vehicles. In my opinion, occupant safety should be much more negotiable than it is. A good example is the column thickness on modern vehicles. I'd gladly trade some roll-over protection for increased visibility.
The one massive caveat I see with the drop-in motor conversions is that it's not just the motor -- you need batteries too. Retrofitting those seems like a much harder challenge. In new designs, they're at the bottom of the chassis, because they're large and heavy. In retro-fits, where would they go? Engine bay? In place of gas tank? It doesn't seem like there is enough room, and the weight distribution considerations are a major concern.
I see this as a niche market at best. The ICE engine at the heart of a vehicle is an old design. Nevermind all the secondary systems that piggy-back off it, these can probably be adapted. But the distribution of drivetrain into the wheels simplifies the construction massively. One huge advantage of the new electric cars is the lower maintenance, especially with the drivetrain. Converted vehicles would inherit many of the legacy problems, plus new issues stemming from kit conversions and interfacing old systems with new powerplants.
There's some percentage of cars out there that are vintage vehicles, which owners don't mind spending the money on to keep going, even though they're emitting diesel fumes and are inefficient. There's a love of these machines, a love which is a hobby and a passion for many car-folks. Giving them some electrification options is a great idea, it needs to happen and it'll create some really fun and zippy vintage cars :)
Price is good, really, people in the market to do swaps are used to paying big bucks for crate motors. This isn't really targeted at everyday consumers. Even so, I do agree that it would be nice to see battery options as well. At least something with a decently modular form factor that is targeted at powering an EV.
Having known many people who do this kind of a thing as a hobby and semi-professionally I highly doubt there will be much interest from the traditional hot rodding crowd. It’s the mechanical nature of things that they love, the sound of a well tuned motor, and the smell of fuel.
Maybe things like this will help seed a new generation of hot rodders but I can’t see the traditional crowd turning in wrenches for a soldering iron.
> I can’t see the traditional crowd turning in wrenches for a soldering iron
Looking at what it takes to do a swap, it seems like it's far less soldering and still a huge amount of wrench turning. It's possible some of the old folks won't go for it, but I know a bunch of hot rodders that would totally do it. Maybe not exclusively, but at least for the novelty. Heck, the biggest electric-mod enthusiast I know is pushing 70.
As someone who's on the edge of that community, this is the type of thing that would get me into it. I've lost interest in getting to all of the tight little areas on a conventional engine setup.
While an electric engine doesn't remove all of that, it simplifies significant portions of it.
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I can see this being interesting for people who have a car with a frame/body that's in good condition but have failing engine or exhaust components. Instead of replacing them, put the money towards a conversion.
Price could be lower. Cheaper to make motor than an engine.
Big issue is lack of inverter. If you get a bigger motor need a bigger inverter.
With a lot of parts now if you buy a la carte you spend as much or more than buying them in the vehicle especially at low end. They price them as if you are taking away a car sale. Not a good model in my opinion.
Dare we say it but this is by far a more sustainable/sensible option vs buying a new car. Also liked Toyota's idea to simply convert ICE's to hydrogen powered ones.
This is targeted at people who mod cars for fun, the kind of people who swap an LS series V8 into whatever. It's not at all intended for DIY conversion by non-experts of regular commuter cars to electric power.
That's fair. I was thinking of the people who would buy a crate motor -- even a basic GM LS3 runs almost $8000. People who do swaps by finding a used LS1/2/3 in a junkyard are not spending anywhere near that. On average they're probably doing the more interesting swaps, too.
It's neither sensible or sustainable for mass market use. Installing this motor in most cars would require multiple days of work plus custom fabrication. And then where do you put the batteries?
Manufacturers are happy to sell crate motors just to pick up a little extra revenue but it will never be more than a tiny niche market for enthusiasts.
It's undeniably more materially efficient to re-power serviceable vehicles but people get their the panties in knot over safety so I doubt the "reverse glider" approach will ever gain a big foothold in the light vehicle market. It would likely be targeted by legislation that makes it economically non-viable if that were to happen.
Considering that the venn diagram between "people who profess to care a lot about safety" and "people who profess to care a lot about the environment" has a pretty massive overlap I look forward to the inevitable dumpster fire as people are forced to reconcile that the tradeoffs exist.
Furthermore, a ton of ancillary stuff has improved so much over the last 20+yr that the cumulative difference is quite noticeable. Few people will drop "new Mitsubishi Mirage" money re-powering an '03 Civic.
> Few people will drop "new Mitsubishi Mirage" money re-powering an '03 Civic.
as you hint at re. legislation this is heavily dependant on how any transition is structured - a heavy-handed transition would put alot of upward market pressure on new EV's and downward pressure on old ICV's that could create a market niche for conversions - they might not spend "new Mitsubishi Mirage" money on a civic, but they might opt to save 5-10k vs new/slightly used EV for a '15 converted mercedes ...
No battery, no charger, no DC-DC converter, and the controller/inverter isn't there as well. The latter is probably gonna be more expensive than the motor itself. We're talking about an inverter that can put out 250kW three phase AC. The board components alone are expensive.
I find it odd they didn't include the inverter from the Mach E mounted on the motor, because that's how the Mach E is configured.
A full tear down of this motor (and its inverter) from the Mach E can be found here:
Notably this motor is potentially technically inferior to the one that Ford put in the front of the Mach E.
Indeed the motor price is competitive. But most of the competition from EV conversion shops is usually packaged along with a matching controller/inverter, so less hassle and also hard to compare price.
Most people doing a conversion would be better off just buying a salvaged Tesla drive unit -- which includes the inverter and gear reduction and can attach directly to short axles and has been reverse engineered so can be driven by third party software.
This has been done with a few models. Nissan did this with the Z and Mazda has done this with the Miata. They aren't new cars, but instead they completely restore old cars with brand new parts.
It's not cheap though. I think the Miata restoration was something like $40k excluding donor vehicle costs.
There are some companies out there that sell power plants from other brands too. Tesla motors, generics, Leaf, etc.
They also sell the peripherals you need to control these things and they've been around for a while. Might want to check it out!
With the strong motorsports traditions in Japan and Great Britain, I would be surprised if this was a uniquely American thing.
I've never known anyone that has purchased a crate engine, but doesn't it sound fantastic that such a thing exists? Fresh from the factory, with a warranty, support, parts, etc just by going to your local dealership! Put it into anything you can think of, whether that be an old car or something else entirely - limited only by your imagination and bank balance!
I meant the phrase "crate engine", not the existence of engines :)
We generally call self-build cars "kit cars", because they come as a kit that includes everything you need. AFAIK we don't have a specific word/phrase to specifically describe the engine (other than "engine", obv :)
What everyone is forgetting is the crash. . I've yet to see data on how well that old truck protects you in a front-end collision when the engine block absorbing the energy is in a junkyard.
Having owned a 1970 F-100, I think you may be overestimating the crash protection they had in the first instance. This takes it from approximately terrible to . . . also terrible.
At least by then they had seatbelts. I restored a 1954 F-250, and the very first thing I had to do was install aftermarket belts. Now that I'm grown with kids, I'm not at all sure I'd let them drive the same thing, crumple zones and airbags and whatnot are all just too good to pass up.
Partly why I like my older truck--it's got no modem, no screens other than a little clock, and nobody in any large corporation knows exactly where I drive it every moment of the day.