Mechkebs are fun, been an user for years, right now sitting on a 1.5k build from 2018
I enjoyed the hobby, not amymore
Since around 2016, the money grab situation became a joke, it all started with Drop (former massdrop) and it all went downhill.. i get that the community was really small and we were forced to use forums to organize drops and so on.. but now the community is by the milliions and stuff are even more expensive than before.. Fake "limited supply", copies of copies of switches that at the end offer no difference, same old keycaps vendors that have months if not years of intentionally delayed orders to justify their insane pricing, US/EU resellers of china pieces for 1000% margins, hidding inventory, snob creators, corruption in raffles, people being hyped by snob 'keyboard celebrities', censure in discords servers when you bring this up and i could go for hours with this list
I've learned that with all the mechanical-head-pens hobbies that it's best to read a little, decide on one good enough product, and stick with it. Stop reading the forums, stop second guessing yourself, just be happy with what you chose.
I settled on a Code keyboard with MX Clears. It's durable, useful and I'm happy with it. Sure I could upgrade but there's little to no reason.
Same with headphones. I gave up on all the fancy audio and use AirPods. Yes, they sound worse. Yes, Bluetooth hurts audio quality. But who cares?
For most of these hobbies the benefit you get from your first purchase will never be replicated. From there it's all diminishing returns.
When audio is being transmitted via Bluetooth, the audio is transcoded to another codec to be played back on the receiver. Lossy transcodes always hurt audio quality, however telling the difference between the source content and transcoded audio isn't as easy as you might think.
Mechanical keyboards are great. Fell in love with an M 20 years ago, and wanted the same feeling. There are great models under $100 that will last you forever. I have 3: 1 at work, 1 at home, and 1 BT for the media center. That's it. Never replaced them, I just got them not to move keyboards around.
The rest I agree. It's like the audiophile business. Drop basically turns every consumer product line into an exclusive, elitist, better than you, brag in front of your bros marketplace with absurd margins. Keycaps are the worst offender, they're the cheapest thing in the whole keyboard to manufacture yet they get sold for... hundreds??!? Hard pass on all that.
Boutique keycaps are expensive because small-run injection molding is always expensive. I'm not at all sure they're the cheapest part of the whole keyboard, I would bet the case is probably cheaper.
Yeah, that's the excuse, but seems like every batch is small-run, limited release, exclusive collectors edition, but somehow more and more stock keeps coming back over time. They're expensive even by Warhammer standards, but at least Warhammer figures have detailed work from an artist on them.
>Yeah, that's the excuse, but seems like every batch is small-run, limited release, exclusive collectors edition, but somehow more and more stock keeps coming back over time.
I can all but guarantee you that fancy custom keycaps are rarely going to be done in runs big enough to have the economies of scale drive down the cost of tooling. Particularly with double shots and the like, those molds are extremely expensive. I don’t doubt that the products are luxury priced, but I think you might be surprised by what the costs are here.
I don't think it's necessarily tooling economies of scale, but probably custom-order costs-- rather than cranking out 5000 standard US QWERTY sets, you have to swap between five different toolings and run 50 sets of each. Even if tooling's free, there's a cost in the short runs and switching.
From what I've seen, a typical new keycap set is 90% existing tooling in a new colour-wave, and 1-10 completely new legends, usually that define the theme (there are seemingly 300 sets with Hiragana sublegends, but this one will have a Windows-logo key replaced with the Strawhat Pirate flag!)
I suspect there are efficencies to be found by pooling overlapping orders and reducing nonstandard kitting. Saying "everyone gets the 3/£ keycap" adds 20 cents per order, rather than making a few UK users buy a low-economies-of-scale kit at $25.
I've been fond of Maxkey's caps-- they seem to have achieved that accidentally. They seem to sell one basic cover-all set in different colours, and as a result they have pretty good supply and modest prices (their sets sell for about USD100, I suspect anything similar from Signature Plastics would cost 150 or 200, and have a 12 month turnaround)
Just go on ebay, you can find great pbt double-shot keycaps for ~$20 or even less, usually shipped from China. The enthusiast shops only carry the most expensive stuff.
ducky keyboards are around the $90-$120 range mostly, depending on the model you get. I think they're a great option for a high quality but non-exotic keyboard
Been running Noppoo Choc since it came out, got two of them. Newer Noppoo Lolita Spyder had the same feeling but didn't award being bought. At work a colleague has a Drevo Tyrfing V2, too much LED but it has a good touch too.
I am into the mechkebs as a hobby (have a KA2, Kyria, Model01, Redox and parts for Dactyl Manuform laying around) but it the first time I've ever heard of Drop, fwiw.
I think that mechanical keyboards are an interesting (if expensive) hobby, but standard keyboards with only mechanical switches and and funny keycaps are too expensive for what they are providing. They are a bit nicer to type with, but switches are in general not the problem of a keyboard. The layout and ergonomics are.
You have to switch to an ortholinear split with a firmware to see how different the ergonomics of a keyboard can be if we push it further and do non let legacy drive our decisions.
> I think that mechanical keyboards are an interesting (if expensive) hobby
I'd love to own a mk, but I don't because I refuse to pay the huge markup just because "it's mechanical!". I'm typing this comment on a decades old Logitech K120 that's even missing some keycaps, that cost me, what, 10 bucks? But you're telling me I can't find a ultra basic key caps set for under $20 because...? "Hey, this Ducky is tacky but doesn't look that bad, how much is it?" $125? Go duck yourself.
The scene is completely nuts, there's no space left for people who just want to type on a mk, it's all about exclusivity, "the endgame", limited editions, artisan caps... Bullshit. There's no "mechanical K120". There's no room left for full sized, affordable, practical, run of the mill, "Ford Model T" mk. So thanks, and good riddance. I'll just buy another K120. I could pay $20, even $40, for "a good feel", but it's not worth $100.
Imagine the same scene on mice. "Hey, are you tired of your ball mouse? Want an optical mouse? Well, the technology is cheap, but we're going to charge you $120, just because!!"
I don't want a mk as a hobby, I want it as a tool. But it looks like we're incapable of conceptualizing a mk as a tool. Sorry for the rant, and pardon my French.
> Imagine the same scene on mice. "Hey, are you tired of your ball mouse? Want an optical mouse? Well, the technology is cheap, but we're going to charge you $120, just because!!"
My, I better not tell you what a MX Master, G903 or Kone Pro Air retails for...
That said, I think you're asking too much if you expect a mk to cost about the same as a membrane keyboard; I think a 2x-3x price increase is totally reasonable considering that a membrane keyboard is trivial to assemble compared to one made of 102 individual switches, and that the production scale is so vastly different.
On the other side, I'm typing this on a Lenovo keyboard that's technically a membrane but it's so sturdy and clicky it feels pretty close to the brown-switch Cooler Master I have at home (which was definitely a cheaper mech, I think I paid $65 or so for it).
>There's no room left for full sized, affordable, practical, run of the mill, "Ford Model T" mk.
I bought a boring (by mk community standards) Filco Majestouch in 2010. I think it was around that $125 price point, but you know what, it is at least 10 times better than the keyboard I had before it and costs less than 4c per day. I wouldn't even be surprised if this thing lasted another 10 years.
Personally I don't understand why people spend thousands of dollars on new PC hardware just to use a 10$ mouse and keyboard. Of course people are free to prioritize whatever they want, and I'm not suggesting everyone should have DIY custom $400+ keyboards, but if you put a 10 year old K120 infront of me with missing keycaps, I'd be measurably unhappy while trying to use my computer.
These days you can get solid mechanical switch keyboards in the $60 to $100 range. The only downside is that they all seem to come with LED backlighting and obnoxious gamer marketing, but once you turn off the light shows they're perfectly good keyboards. I think they would qualify for "Model T" status.
They have mechanical switches but often lack N-key rollover (I think the blog post gets this wrong) and instead have a watered down form marketed as "anti-ghosting". But that's more than enough for all purposes except maybe Emacs olympics and social prestige with keyboard-philes.
I bought a Filco Majestouch 2 three years ago when I finally had to retire my 8 year old Sidewinder X4, which was a $40 membrane keyboard with deeper-than-usual key travel. I can definitely say moving from that to the Majestouch 2 has not made me a better programmer, typist, or gamer. And it hasn't helped with ergonomics either. It just feels better the same way shelling out the extra couple hundred bucks for a high end graphics card makes games feel better.
I owned an actually ergonomic split-key keyboard as well (Goldtouch) when I developed RSI-related wrist problems as a teenager and kept it around for 15 years. That keyboard made an actual difference and I would take it out of the closet whenever my wrists started acting up even from the Majestouch 2. But you don't usually see ergonomics front and center in super expensive mechanical keyboards - because IMO in that price range and in that community it hasn't been about practical concerns for a while. And that's fine - I'm not going to judge someone's choice of things to collect - but I see no practical benefit to spending substantially more on mechanical keyboards.
I bought 2 of these in tenkeyless (for work and home) and both are still in great shape. I did switch to Kinesis at work about a year later but is 9-10 years of daily use and they all look almost identical to when new.
Finding a keyboard you like is expensive but once you do they pretty much last forever. At work the Kinesis has outlasted 5 MacBooks and serval PCs. It is by far the cheapest computer peripheral when time of use is considered.
I think a lot of the interesting keyboards are really small series, and such things cost - there is such thing as "economy of scale".
The cheapest KB I've built myself was a Kyria for just over 200 EUR with cheap keycaps but relatively expensive switches - Kailh Pink, as I remember.
Imagine building something like Keyboardio Model01 (https://shop.keyboard.io/products/model-01-keyboard?variant=...): You have to build a case in low numbers, you have to design and print the PCB boards, you have to order the switches (Jesse, the author of it told once, that Cherry was not even interested in talking to him due to the relatively low number of switches he could take off them) and you still have to solder and assemble it, which for small shops is a manual job. Even the most mass-produced ergonomic keyboard I know if, Kineses Advantage2 is still a very niche product.
So all the "endgame" photos of another 60% KB with "artisan" keycaps and expensive pre-lubed switches are indeed bullshit. But you can get a lot of gain out of it if you go for ergonomic keyboards, even if you get the cheapest switches and keycaps (gatreon, for example) because the ergonomic improvement you can get out of a keywell or a proper thumb cluster can be life changing. Especially if you have a predisposition for developing RSI or similar problems. But it will still not be cheap. Or you can buy one and stick to it, you don't have to do it as hobby. Buy a Kinesis Advantage and do not worry that much. If you later want to mode it, there are still multiple possibilities.
I own just one mechanical keyboard and it’s my daily driver, when I type lot I plug it in and off I go, otherwise I’m fine with the not so good-to-type-alot laptop keyboards. Mechanical keyboards are a good investment if you don’t go overboard and become obsessed with them. They do offer a very good feedback and are pleasant to type on. My typing error rate is the lowest on my mechanical keyboard, and I guess that says quite a bit. My mechkeb is a Leopold FC750R and couldn’t be happier with my purchase, which i expect I will own for quite some time.
Check out cloud nine. Full sized, split mechanical, and looks near identical to the Microsoft Ergo 4000. I typed full speed immediately. Still pricey, but feels like a tool to me.
I'm typing this on an Ajazz Ak33 which I've owned for several years and it's still working perfectly fine. You can find it for less than $30 on aliexpress. There are quite a few options of mechanical keyboards for less than $50 .
It’s interesting you mention this, as I (somebody who has always used basic keyboards) just recently bought a split ortholinear mechanical keyboard for this exact reason. Curious to see what the experience is like.
The ideals of improved ergonomics and typing efficiency were much more interesting to me than fancy keycaps... but looking cross-sectionally at the keyboard space while researching my purchase, I found that the opposite was mostly true in terms of what attracted the most attention. Strange.
>looking cross-sectionally at the keyboard space while researching my purchase, I found that the opposite was mostly true in terms of what attracted the most attention. Strange.
It is not that strange - people who aim for ergonomic builds are a small community of an already small (if increasing) community. Most people do not want something like a new keyboard to mess too much with their motor memory.
That fits for me. I got two mechanical keyboards at the same time. One mirrors the Microsoft Ergo: cloud nine. The other is unique in the layout: ergodox ez. On this, my typing speed dropped to a third of normal. With the cloud nine, i typed at full speed minute one. The twice as expensive ergodox ez sits in my closet.
In my experience it doesn't take very long on a new keyboard set or even a new layout entirely before one gets fairly up to speed. When I built my Lets Split v2 ortholinear, I put dvorak on it and getting up to speed was surprisingly fast.
The ergonomic reasons behind the lets split/ergodox make them quite worthwhile. I love my HHKB2 but a split keyboard in general feels much better for my posture.
I enjoyed the hobby, not amymore. Since around 2016, the money grab situation became a joke, it all started with Drop (former massdrop) and it all went downhill..
I have been a mechanical keyboard user for decades and I have no idea what you mean or who or what this is talking about. There are people for whom keyboards are a hobby?? What is "Drop"?
If I want a mechanical keyboard I just buy it directly from Cherry, the quality is high, the prices are fair, the customer service is great, I've never had any problems.
If I want a mechanical keyboard I just buy it directly from Cherry
As with just about everything, while most people are perfectly happy just buying the thing, there are always people who prefer to buy the pieces and build their own to their exact taste and preference.
It could be computers or sailboats or guitars or, as in this case, keyboards.
A hobby as in building and customising keyboards. If I want a mechanical keyboards I'll spend weeks researching various pcbs and kits, looking at keyswitch datasheets and listening to recording of sounds they make, choosing keycaps with perfect font, color and manufacturing process. Don't get me started on keyboard cases...
A couple of years ago, a buddy convinced me to sign up. Personally, I’ve only found them to be expensive. Like, they show it as a bulk sales price drop, but it feels more like gimmick original prices (though I don’t think they are doing that, maybe it is just normal prices outside my comfort level).
Thanks. How was this one company able to distort the market? Is this an American thing? Here in the UK mechanical keyboards are readily available with no such issues. I don't think we suffer from any "money grab" situation.
A few months ago, I finally built my own board from scratch. I used an Arduino-alike (based on one of the bigger Atmega parts)
It was an interesting endeavour-- designing a PCB, mounting plate/casing, sending them out to be be drilled, soldering it all together, configuring QMK firmware. It's the order of something like assembling Heathkit audio gear was in the 1960s-- the finished product is on tier with a good quality commercial product, but you also get complete control over any substitutions and customizations you like.
Unfortunately, due to low economies of scale, I paid about $500 for the board.
It's like most things. You can buy most things at a decent to good quality easily, but if you want something bespoke, it costs more.
I like building things, so I'm making my own keyboard. I decided on a switch type. I like a strong tactile switch so MX Browns are too soft for me so I'll pay a bit more for something that suits my taste.
My PC is in the living room, I like having a pretty living room, so I'll pay a bit more for a pretty keyboard case, a pretty rotary encoder and pretty keycaps.
I'm French and the problem to me is that the hobby of building custom keyboards is increasingly popular in the US and in Asia but very little of it is European. This means few keycap sets have the big ISO enter key that doesn't exist on ANSI keyboards. Pretty keycaps are expensive. Shipping to/from the US and Asia is also expensive.
I also use a non conventional keyboard layout (Canadian Multilingual Standard) which has small differences with more standard layouts and though I can type mostly without looking at my keyboard, I still look a it sometimes and it's confusing to have something completely different printed on the key. I've started working with blank keycaps but those aren't much easier to find. Especially in some profiles. (You can have an idea of profiles here : https://www.keycaps.info/stack)
Another factor to the cost is that a lot of the parts are produced for limited runs. I'm not exactly sure how it's organised but a designer submits a new design, if enough people are interested they order a bunch of them with a little extra but they can't easily buy a lot of stock to keep selling. I feel like a lot of the designers do it a side thing and can't afford to invest in it.
Compare it to cars, where people will buy extremely powerful cars, with crazy interiors and using enough petrol to power a small country when a good old second hand Voxhall would be enough for their needs.
Oh yes, it's similar to a lot of other 'enthusiast' things, like high-end audio, cameras and guitars.
I got into keyboards because I wanted a lockdown project. I figured I could learn a little about electronics and firmware, learn how to solder, and even perhaps make something that would be useful at work. Keycaps can be a complete rip-off, and my keyboard is fitted with a mixture of caps that I've scrounged from various places.
And when we finally get back to the office, a super-noisy mechanical keyboard will help my project of being allowed to WFH as much as possible ;-)
I love how Cherry Browns became déclassé key switches, due to their popularity and everyone ran to the other extreme (extremely stiff tactile switches) and are now running back to the other extreme (softer tactile switches like the Browns) with special lube and keyfilms to improve their sound and subtle typing feel.
> same old keycaps vendors that have months if not years of intentionally delayed orders
Got any source on this? I don't disagree with the rest of your claims, but this sounds completely wrong; for example GMK is actively expanding their production capacity and already offers a selection of keycap sets without shipping delays.
Orders are delayed because the "same old" manufacturers are flooded with an ever-increasing demand for customized low-quantity productions, each of which introduce an overhead. And the appearance of new, cheaper manufacturers only seemed to make the demand explode even more.
That explains a lot to me, as a (almost) user. Wanted to buy one, loved hackers keyboard, but the whole thing was more expensive then a modern mobile ryzen 4xxx mini pc with lots of ram and m2 ssd, wifi6 and so on. It also not locally available so basically no real warranty for me.
Got one of those curvy ergonomic divided keyboards from MS and forgot about the whole thing, while saving $500.
What makes it a problem to orders switches yourself?
Mechanical switches are not a rocket science, and any electromechanical OEM would've been happy to work on them with such premiums.
I myself been thinking of ordering double action switches, so you don't need debouncing them. I even contemplated adding some ultra low power latches to be overmolded inside, so you get a single output out of the box.
I have never been interested in the "online community" part of this mk fad but I have been happy to buy off the shelves from hhkb maybe 20 years ago, the Unicom, then EZ/sza.
It’s expensive for sure but there are functioning suppliers for quality boards.
This one has always annoyed me and really annoys some people I know. I had the opportunity to buy a DisplayWriter (full system) a few years ago and when doing research on it was horrified to find out it was popular to gut the keyboard and replace the circuitry with a modern custom keyboard controller.
> Mechanical keyboards are ideal for programmers and fast typists, while light users can also consider membrane keyboards since they do not often come across certain 3-key combinations/shortcuts.
I've never encountered this sort of problem with ANY keyboard I've owned in 30 years, no matter how crappy.
> A good mechanical keyboard can alleviate the fatigue of typing. Users who need to type for a long time can consider it.
This claim seems dubious.
> In theory, a mechanical keyboard can last for 3 to 5 years.
I've yet to have a membrane keyboard actually wear out. I just had my daily driver Logitech solar wireless keyboard that I bought in 2014 finally die, but it was the solar charger circuit that failed, not the keys or membrane (although the paint on the wasd keys were getting pretty damn faded).
> Keyboard wrist rest: some users may feel uncomfortable typing without a palm wrist. This depends on personal needs.
Wrist rests are actually one of the leading causes of RSI due to the extra compression stress they place upon the carpal tunnel.
I'm not hatin', but spend some time on r/mechanicalkeyboards and you'll quickly realize it's just a fun hobby that's 90% about aesthetics. For example, most users ignore backlighting because it limits the cute keycap sets they can use.
Imagine what kind of person regularly posts on a subreddit about a physical tool that doesn't require much maintanence. Of course it's going to be the people that take it up as a personal hobby that are going to post - that isn't going to give you a representative sample of the average users. I've been using a mechanical keyboard for years now, and I've visited the sub maybe half a dozen times, and yet I enjoy the feel of my keyboards and they'll continue to make a small but significant improvement to my interactions with computers.
I'm sure a lot of this is out there, especially for young keyboard users. I'm middle age and I learned in grad school that a good mechanical keyboard could save my fingers. I personally went from finger pain to no finger pain, and have been good since. YMMV of course
If you are a cook, spending a ton of money on a knife that cuts well, is balanced and — most importantly — you like to use is totally common and normal. A cheap kitchen knife from ikea probably would also work for them — but this is what they interact with, so spending money there is totally reasonable.
People on this site probably interact with computers much more than the average person, and many type stuff into their machines for the majority of their days. I don't see why it wouldn't make sense to get yourself something decent that feels good to interact with there.
Tiny annoyances multiplied by a hundred times a day, 365 days a year add up. And even if it is only that slightly mushy Ctrl key or that spacebar where the right stabilizer is weird because the thing fell off the desk once.
For me a mechanical keyboard must be sturdy, heavy, with no flex of any kind. Preferable with black linear/silent switches, something that you can punch in hard or type completely silent if needed. Not a piece of plastic that moves around on the desk.
Maybe the fact that I am playing musical instruments (and work in audio) plays a role here. Tactile feedback is very important to me. I don't need a click, just very predictable and reliable responses that don't distract me when I am in the flow. I need a keyboard that can be silent if I need it to be silent.
That alone (for me) justifies spending more money than usual people would spend on a keyboard. It is not hobby to me, it is a tool. But a tool I enjoy using and that works for my use case. Sure I could use any other keyboard. But I don't have to, so why would I?
> Tiny annoyances multiplied by a hundred times a day, 365 days a year add up.
A year ago I lost a lot of free time and realized how much crap I was unnecessarily putting up with. I've started trying to upgrade the tools that give me the most friction, and many times it's been surprisingly inexpensive for the benefit gained. I bought one decent keyboard and mouse that can switch between multiple devices, replaced my terrible second monitor with one that has better viewing angles, and took in my kitchen knives to have them sharpened. There are (obviously) still many annoyances during the course of a day, but there's just a little less overhead involved in getting work done.
I agree with nearly all of the points you made, and I am a similar linear switch user. It is a sturdy, reliable input device. But even though I'm not a chef, I still cook for myself and I want sturdy, reliable tools there as well. Maybe I don't need the largest array of knives, but the ones i choose should make my life easier, not possibly have the knife equivalent of a squishy membrane key.
I have a number of the Cherry MX Board 1.0 TKL that has a backlight, I use them on keyboards for computers at theatrical (stage) shows. No need to turn on a light that may get noticed by the audience to see where the keyboard is or to find your place on it.
And some people do not 100% touch type, or don't touch type in the strict way everyone expects all touch typists to do so.
To type, sure. But what if you want to press a more obscure button like F7 or Print Screen? Also helps for games where your fingers aren't always in the standard ASDF position and you're still learning the keybindings.
I'm pretty confused about your comment and all the replies. Do you all not have lights? I can see my keyboard just fine without backlighting. Not wanting backlighting has nothing to do with whether I need to look at my keyboard or not. I just think it's ugly (which is just a preference, totally fine for people to like it).
Yes, controlling your lighting situation is certainly a good solution. For me, even though I don't compute in the dark I do keep the ambient light pretty dim. I get sick of squinting at the keys.
Yup, I've got no problem with hobbies. I have a friend who keeps a closet full of sneakers he'll never wear, and quite often I'll go days without calling him a weirdo ;-)
It just gets weird when people start into these audiophile-like arguments for the superiority of their choice. I've owned a number of mechanical and membrane keyboards since my first computer in 1983, and there's no real benefit to either except for aesthetics and how it feels to you personally.
I totally agree. Membrane keyboards are 100% fine. In fact, back in the 90s I was a bit turned off by the cacophonous IBM keyboards and considered the shift toward rubber domes as a luxury. We've come full circle.
> In theory, a mechanical keyboard can last for 3 to 5 years.
3 to 5 years! I expect all of my mechs to last a lifetime. My daily driver is cherry mx blues that have been clicking away for 11 years now, 6-10 hours of software engineering a day.
That calculation does not seem very realistic. I'd expect a mech keyboard to continue to function after 50 years of daily use, and a traditional membrane to probably wear out somewhere between 10 - 15 years of daily use.
I've gone through four or five Apple Keyboard (A1243) during the past decade. They break very easily, but I like the feel and layout.
With mechanical keyboards made for gaming (Razer and Corsair) I've had the caps start to fall apart and break after ~2 years of regular usage. The most frequently used switches also tend to start showing signs of wear and tear after a while.
>With mechanical keyboards made for gaming (Razer and Corsair) I've had the caps start to fall apart and break after ~2 years of regular usage. The most frequently used switches also tend to start showing signs of wear and tear after a while.
That's why a lot of people into this hobby get pcb's where they don't have to solder in the switches and if ever a switch breaks they just pop in a replacement or pull the switch apart to see what's wrong.
Similarly if a keycap `falls apart and breaks` although i don't quite know how this managed to happen for you
Yep, if you get a nice one then it should last quite a while. Problem is when you want to buy another one for work or something and they no longer sell them :/
I have been using a Tex Beetle TKL Mechanical Keyboard for about 10 years and they no longer sell it which is a huge bummer. I'm sure if it breaks I'll be OK with another TLK keyboard out there on the market but I do love this one.
> Wrist rests are actually one of the leading causes of RSI due to the extra compression stress they place upon the carpal tunnel.
Can you speak more to this? I bought a ZSA Moonlander[0], which has built in (tho removable) wrist rests. I bought the keyboard specifically for ergonomics, mechanical keyboard "coolness" was far down the list.
I used to get wrist pain typing directly on my MBP, with my laptop on my lap (shitty setup due to COVID, am fixing now). I would be resting my wrist right on the hard edge of the MBP. Since getting the moonlander, I've had no wrist pains.
That kind of RSI is caused by repeated rubbing along the carpal tunnel in your wrists. The more friction there is, the quicker it happens, so the idea is to keep your wrists as free from all forms of compression/pronation as possible so that the tendons glide as effortlessly as they can. Resting your wrists on something, having your wrists bent at bad angles, etc increase the compression and thus friction. Piano and guitar players with poor posture also suffer similar injuries for the same reason.
Other than that it's about recognizing the signs that your wrists are getting raw from too much use and taking breaks.
There's more than one type of RSI, carpal tunnel is only one particular injury.
I've had severe typing RSI and had to go to the doctor for it.. mine was tendonitis in the flexor muscles.
They looked at the X-Rays and MRIs of my wrists and said there was no way I would ever have to worry about carpal tunnel, different people have differences in the bones and can have a tighter tunnel.. a tighter tunnel can make that type of issue more likely to occur.
There are tendons going from your fingers all the way to your elbows. These tendons must traverse the narrowing that is your wrist. Tendons are surrounded by a sheath that lets them move freely in one dimension as they extend or contract. There's two sets of these tendons: one below and one above, for bending and extending your fingers, respectively. On the underside of your wrist the tendons for bending your fingers all get close together. Now when you rest your wrists as you type you put pressure on all those tendons and their sheaths, and this causes trouble by increasing friction -- eventually scarring.
Learn to type by floating your hands like a pianist. It’s the main thing that saved my wrists 10 years ago when I started developing first hints of issues after 15 years of daily coding.
Retiring at 23 because of wrist pain wouldve sucked.
Typing on yor lap is generally bad for all sorts of reasons. I’ve found it can work if you’re reclining in a comfy chair. But float your wrists!
Great tip and way of phrasing it. This is basically what I do, except I cheat a bit by resting my elbows on my arm rest. My wrists hover, or gently graze the wrist rest, but most the pressure is closer to my elbows.
I had really bad arm / wrist issues about 10 years ago due to overuse of crappy small keyboards on laptops, etc. Mechanical keyboards (after a bunch of physical therapy / massage) have been key to keep my arms healthy.
After trying probably 10 different "ergo" keyboards, the one I landed on that has been amazing for a decade is the Kinesis Ergo Advantage2
It is split, so helps with that angle, and also has depressions where your fingers go so your hands aren't cocked back causing additional strain. It also has a couple options of the mechanical switches used. Anyone struggling with pain from typing, I'd suggest looking at it. It has a learning curve but it's worth it.
I think it's a matter of keeping the hands aligned with forearm and not having pressure on the write joints themselves. I try to keep the palms of my hand (the same part you hit with in martial arts) on the "wrist rests" instead, and I've had zero issues for years. For me, the biggest problems I had came from using various mice and never finding a good one until I moved to a MacBook and learned the trackpad. Now I've literally adhered a magic trackpad 2 to the middle of a Kinesis Advantage 2 keyboard and I love it. It translates back and forth between using the laptop and a "docked" setup better than anything else I've tried over the years.
The kinesis advantage (now Advantage2 LF) has been my mainstay keyboard over the last 20 years, both professionally and personally. I too adhered a trackpad, although mine is an Ergo Mini touchpad:
https://ergonomictouchpad.com/ergonomic_touchpad.php
I immediately bypassed the aesthetics side of MK and went straight to functionality; the kinesis has probably been the most reliable piece of hardware I've had over the years (with the exception of a key-repeating known issue that has been resolved with the advantage2)
I had the exact same issue with my laptop - and my wrist pain wouldn't go away even after switching to a normal keyboard and watching my posture.
I also bought the Moonlander and have had very minimal pain since (~4 months now). Was thinking about this as I went to bed last night; such a relief. Sometimes I'd have to wear wrist braces at night due to pain.
Regarding the wrist rests, I find that the base of my palms, and not my wrists, touch the wrist rest. Maybe it's the size of my hands and how I have it tented, but overall I like the wrist rests quite a lot. I do try to lift my wrists a little when I'm really typing though.
The ideal if you need to type a lot is to leave your palms and wrists "floating" in the air while actively typing, and position your torso and keyboard such that you can type with your hands close enough to your body that they can be supported without much effort by your arms and shoulders, perhaps lightly resting your finger tips on the keys. Resting your palms on a palmrest while not actively typing is fine.
You’ll get wrist pain primarily from wrists not being straight (either flexed downward or extended upward). Keeping your wrists close to straight is important when doing any kind of repetitive action with the fingers.
I usually do this "floating" thing, especially since I mostly use my index and middle fingers, so I have to move the hands around to reach the keys.
But I've found that for some use cases, when I always press the same keys (say moving around text with hjkl, or similar) it's very comfortable to rest the wrist on the wrist-rest. However, I usually put most of the wrist's weight on the exterior, so I suppose the nerves aren't as much constrained.
That moonlander looks cool, but I place my keyboard on my lap while typing, so it wouldn't work for me. I like that the switches are replaceable, and it's funny that the first thing they mention about what matters in switch selection is loudness but then fail to list that attribute for any of the switches they offer!
personally I had trouble until I got a wrist rest that was:
- high enough (forearm to wrist straightish to concave, NOT splayed back)
- just the right softness (too hard = palm fatigue)
- kept my wrists warm enough. I think cold palms/wrists might be a bad situation
for my mouse, I found using a smaller mouse-dedicated wrist rest full of beads worked for me.
why people would use wooden or plastic wrist rest is beyond me. Same for typing with your palms on a cold laptop surface. (also remember there are NO OSHA-approved laptops, they are not ergonomic)
I've never encountered this sort of problem with ANY keyboard I've owned in 30 years, no matter how crappy.
I have, but only under very specific circumstances: playing Overcooked with two players on one keyboard. This will occasionally mean six keys simultaneously pressed and then someone notices key presses just go missing.
Also, not all keyboards with mechanical switches have N-key rollover. Many tout "anti-ghosting" which means different things that you have to look in the specs for.
I'm not sure how much typing you do but I've done a LOT! One thing I can say for certain:
Mechanical keyboards are much more comfortable to type on.
I feel like even a 10% increase in comfortableness for something you use every day for just $100 is totally worth it! If you do any amount of typing I really recommend it!
Sorry! I used a membrane keyboard! I don't use laptops much but whenever I do its super uncomfortable! Thats more of the position rather than the keys though.
If you play any games on your computer, then odds are high you are familiar with using the WASD keys for directional movement and the space bar for jumping.
If someone is moving forward (W) and strafing to the right (D) while jumping (Space), they will have reached the key rollover limits of their 3KRO (3 key roll over) membrane-based keyboard.
This means that if they ALSO try to fire off one of their abilities (let's say they have to press "1" to activate their ability), they won't be able to activate it unless they first let go of one of their movement keys.
This is a lot less noticeable in a more advanced keyboard that can do 6 key rollover. It's pretty rare that someone is going to be performing 6 simultaneous actions in a game.
I think the wear could be from people using the same keys very heavily (e.g. WASD) and those failing. I've had failures on both mech (a WASD mx-clear, 7 yrs old) and membrane (ms natural, 1 yr old) keyboards. That's about it. Build quality for the rest of the keyboard is a factor, however.
I eventually threw out my oldest mechanical (1997) because I didn't want to deal with a ps2 adapter anymore. Mecha are a higher price tier, and it's easier to get higher quality. Newer keyboards (2009 onwards) that I still own hold up pretty well.
My Kinesis is distinctly less fatiguing. That's because I don't bottom out the keys when typing. The key activates early and the keyboard beeps. I stop at the beep and it's really more comfortable. My hands can feel a significant difference after a day off typing.
If you're placing your wrist down when typing, it's better to place it higher up. And when rising your hand from idle to typing height, it's less fatiguing to raise it less. A better starting position will likely improve your final typing position.
> >> A good mechanical keyboard can alleviate the fatigue of typing. Users who need to type for a long time can consider it.
> This claim seems dubious.
Having had some RSI issues; I have found significant improvement since I started swapping mechanical keyboards around. I don't bottom-out as much which alleviates some finger pain I had after using my previous rubber-dome.
Not for everyone I'm sure; but it does help. I rotate a Magic Keyboard and ~3-4 different mechanical keyboards on various desks to get different angles and pressures also.
Heh.. my full circle ended up with 5 years of playing with mechanical keyboards causing RSI.
I was completely brainwashed by the community that mechanical keyboards were the solution to RSI and had a major blind spot. I even learned dvorak and got up to near 100wpm at it with no success.
When I ditched the mechanical keyboards all the problems went away.
Something about the whole thing with the tactile bump in the middle doesn't work for me. When my typing ramps up to high speed I end up pushing the mechanical key all the way down to the stop anyway and blowing through the tactile bump. Once you're doing that you're moving your fingers further and doing more work, and the stops on these key switches are harder than a lot of non-mechanical keyboards.
No doubt they feel great and I do think I can type faster on them but unquestionably for me the Cherry MX type switches give me RSI symptoms and tendonitis in my arms.
I think it's all in the travel & how the "stop" at the end of the travel feels. I have a bunch of experience playing guitar and piano too.. piano has a long travel, if the stop at the end of the travel is hard it gives me RSI, but if it's not (and it's usually not on real acoustic piano keybeds) it's mostly OK. Guitar meanwhile has a rock hard stop but minimal travel, and a good guitar you also get some tactile feedback in that if you push the note down too far it goes sharp. Guitar basically gives me 0 RSI symptoms. A lot of these Cherry type mechanical keyswitches are the worst of both worlds.. long travel and a very hard/harsh stop at the bottom of the travel.
Both the modern MS and Apple keyboards are mostly fine and I've been feeling great for about 6 years now since ditching the mechanical key switches.
I think buckling spring might not cause me issues FWIW, but I tried a lot of mechanical KBs including TEK, Kinesis, different Das Keyboard models.. anything with a Cherry style switch (Actual Cherry MX or clones) gives me trouble.
The mechanical keyboard community has a fetish for switches that have an absurdly strong bump. I don't understand it. I've tried a couple different ones that are supposed to be amazing feeling and both times it felt like way more effort than I should have to put in to pressing a key. And then once you've passed that point you smash into the bottom.
Personally I keep going back to MX browns because the slight tactile bump is easy to press past and gives enough feedback for me to be satisfied. I still bottom out but it isn't a sudden shock as I pass the bump. Though I actually have been thinking of switching to silent MX reds since they bottom out more softly. Or maybe I'll try O-rings again so I can get the softened landing and still keep the tactile bump.
When I built my first keyboard, I used MX Browns because I didn't know any better.
Then I read all the /r/MK threads and other forum posts where Browns are (almost) universally shit on. The conventional wisdom was that they were the worst switches out there.
So my next keyboard was some clicky green thing. Can't remember the brand.
They were very tactile and clicky, but I didn't like them. One problem was that the click was fake! It's a separate bar that snaps as the key travels down, but it's not associated with the electrical contacts at all. So depending on the key, it's possible to generate a keypress without hearing a click or (worse) get a click without closing the switch.
I'm back on Browns now. I think you're right about the fetish. The clicks sound really cool, but they're not as useful as people claim.
Or maybe I just have a "thunk" fetish, I don't know.
I was super bummed when I realized the blues I bought were similarly fake. I loved the old buckling springs, and wanted that certainty. But the click lies! If I trust the click a speed, I get mis-types.
If I am a "conscientious typist" and I am actively/awarely concentrating on my fingers with MX browns I move my fingers with smaller travel and just go a little past the tactile bump and I'm fine.
But as soon as I'm concentrating more on code, or trying to type fast, or under stress I start hitting the keys more quitckly and forcefully and I hit the bottom stop and that's when the keys start causing RSI type forces to build up.
I don't have to be conscientious with most other types of switches. Theres something different about the feedback cycle and for me almost anything provides better feedback than the mechanical switches.
I think it's a question of habit. I use both membrane and Gateron brown switches, one or the other for longer periods of time, and I find that I tend to get used to the lighter force needed for the mechanical, to the point that for a while, when getting back to membrane, I miss keys.
I think that's most of us. People who can stop after the bump certainly have trained in that way of typing, possibly even learned it that way from the start.
Interestingly I'm old enough that I learned to type on buckling spring type keyboards.
But back when I was learning no one ever even discussed any of this stuff. I didn't meet the first person I knew with RSI till I got out of college. My first manager out of college had a bad case of it and she had all kinds of keyboards she was always trying to alleviate pain.
Cherry MX Blue switch keyboards all around the house for a few years, then I noticed my hands and arms ache like hell after extended coding sessions where I am typing more than copy/pasta. I attributed this to the amount of pressure I was exerting to get the keys to depress in an agreeable way.
Fast forward to now, I am using a Realforce R2 w/ Topre switches. The first few days I felt like I was typing on a cloud with zero feedback, but I got used to it really quickly. Can code for 12 hours straight now without any difficulties. Your fingers get desensitized to subtle forces when you are slamming those heavy keys around all the time.
I went back and tried the MX blue keyboard the other day and it felt like typing on a pile of marble.
The Topre is the only thing I didn't try. It's tempting, but it's an expensive keyboard and I have no problems just using cheap rubber dome/chiclet/butterfly keyboards.
Your experience is just like mine, but mine got so bad I ended up the doctor. The doctors & hand specialists & PTs are very clued in about wrist posture, desk setup, etc.. but there is literally no medical research on keyboard switch travel, force, work, bump stops, etc.. so they never said anything about what kind of keyboard I was using.
Can you elaborate a little bit more on the Topre switches. I am on MX Reds and I have been debating on switching over to Topre mainly because anyone that uses them likes them over everything else (price aside)
The travel and force required for the keys is something to get used to. I honestly don't know how to describe the sensation in a way that would properly inform a purchase.
I will say this though - As someone who plays the piano and understands good form, the Topre is much more rewarding to disciplined hands. Lazy hands that rely on the spring tension of MX Blue switches to keep from accidental activation will take some training to get back into proper form.
You have to be very intentional with this Realforce keyboard. Your fingers should not touch keys until you intend to fully depress them. It will punish you for being undisciplined and resting hands on keyboard with long sequences of "aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa", et. al. as you contemplate various sections of code.
Bottoming out is a neglected problem. (The long soft stop is one of the reasons the IBM Selectric has the best key feel ever.)
The Apple Extended Keyboard II is probably the most common ‘mechanical’ keyboard that was made with rubber ~baby~ button bottom bumpers. Unfortunately, for Jobs, “This keyboard represents everything about Apple that I hate.”
But in general, different people encounter different types of RSI. For me the problem is wrist motion or position, so a Kinesis contoured keyboard and Kensington Slimblade trackball were a solution.
What's weird is that a decade ago, bottoming out was a concern in the mechanical keyboard community. A selling point of mechanical keyboards was that you didn't have to bottom out; that's required on a membrane keyboard by their nature. O-rings were a very common way for people to fix bottoming out without having to learn to stop their fingers before reaching the end of the key travel (it was also a way to make the keyboards quieter by avoiding the clack).
Indeed, and the one change to keyboard design that would provide substantial ergonomic opportunities hasn't been seriously approached. The key switches are too large to provide layouts that fit hands that are narrower or shorter than somewhere larger than average.
Lillian Malt kicked things off in the 1970's with the Maltron, a (brilliant) workaround for key spacing being too large for her hands. We've been beating around the same oversized components ever since, trying to squeeze out a drip or two of better ergonomics.
Further useful pursuit of improved keyboard ergonomics requires keyswitches with a size and travel distance that isn't informed by the recent memory of typewriters and manufacturing limitations of the era of Cherry's original design, and produced in volume to at least Cherry MX standards. It's time to move away from typewriter-defined hardware.
You can add o-ring on the stem to soften the bottoming out (varying stiffness), or you can go for super-light springs so there is minimal strength required for pressing. Or I've seen people adding neoprene foam to the plate for a softer bottoming out.
I tried that, the o-rings made things worse. They soften the bottoming but they also increase the force required to actuate the key. They also make the feel of the keyboard horrible IMO.
There's something about the tactile nature of the keys which just doesn't work for me and/or some other people.. the tactile nature makes us use more force instead of less, and there is no getting around these keys require more force X a greater distance so they literally make your fingers do more physical work.
They certainly did feel nasty to me, but they shouldn't increase the force required. A narrow enough O-ring should provide cushioning just past the actuation point. What I would have to do when I used O-rings is press every key very hard after installing them to ensure that they were pushed as far up as possible.
I didn't go off on a wild goose chase trying different O-rings. I believe I did the experiment on a Das Keyboard Professional something and I used the O-rings that Das Keyboard recommended and sold.
It all got silly at some point. The Mantra is that mechanical keyboards are better. If you have trouble with RSI typing on them the community suggests a never ending series of high effort and/or high cost solutions. No one ever suggests the easy and cheap solution of just not using the mechanical keyboards.
When I finally figured it out it was like I'd escaped from a cult. Interestingly I used Mechanical Keyboards at the office from about 2009-2014. During that time period tons of developers I worked with were steadily buying up Mechanical Keyboards, it was basically a trend/fad at that time.
Fast forward to 2020 and I don't think there's a single developer left in my office who still uses them.
I'm 1 of 2 devs in my office that use mechanical keyboards, and the other one is only in the mechanical category because they have a Kinesis Advantage to eliminate the wrist pains they were having. It's all down to personal preference with input devices and there's no shame in using whatever suits you best.
Yes I mentioned owning both a TEK (Truly Ergonomic Keyboard) which I believe had the Kalih brown-types and I also owned a Kinesis with Cherry MX Browns.
Neither helped.. the Kinesis is what I was using when things got so bad I had to go to the doctor.
I, too, found a Kinesis (bowl-shaped) keyboard to be worse than a typical non-ergonomic keyboard with membrane switches. In fact, my worst RSI was during the year or 2 I used a Kinesis.
When a person switches to a different kind of keyboard, particularly if many of the keys are in a different location, he or she must pay closer attention to the mechanics of typing until the keyboard becomes familiar. I have found that this paying of attention to the mechanics reduces RSI, whether I switch from a standard keyboard to a Kinesis or I switch back to a standard keyboard after a long period of using a Kinesis. So if you are sufficiently like I was, then you should wait a few months after switching to a Kinesis before concluding that it is actually better for you than a standard board.
I had RSI (tendonitis) for about 5 years. A large fraction of my keyboarding time during those 5 years consisted of my slowly pecking at a (standard) keyboard with the eraser end of a pencil. I consulted doctors and worried that I would never again be able to work as a programmer.
I cured my RSI and have been free of RSI for about 15 years. I have been using cheap non-ergonomic membrane keyboards (Amazon Basics, $13 each including shipping before the pandemic started causing shortages of computer equipment) for a few years although for much of the last 15 years I used expensive non-ergonomic membrane keyboards (Logitech K750s) out of an abundance of caution.
The "height" of the keyboard (distance between the part resting on the desk and the top of the keycaps) is much lower on the membrane keyboards I have been using over the last 15 years than it is on any keyboard I have ever seen with mechanical switches. The lowness of the height is desirable because I can spend less time monitoring for good wrist position (because if my wrists are resting on the desk every now and then, the position is not as harmful as it would be if my keyboard were taller) and I don't need to bother with wrist rests.
The problem with the Kinesis is you're never going to always have a Kinesis available if you have to use someone else's computer, so it's really hard to really get to the point you use it correctly without thinking about it.
Dvorak can be a huge handicap too if you can't be 100% in control of every computer you touch.
>you're never going to always have a Kinesis available
My lifestyle was stationary and uncomplicated enough that I used the Kinesis for 99.5% of my typing except for those times when my RSI was so bad that I abandoned 10-finger typing and switched to typing very slowly with the eraser end of a pencil (for which I usually switched to a standard keyboard).
I had the same experience. I bought cherry mx brown and on day 1, I thought I need to give it sometime to feel its superiority. I thought I am typing the wrong way and I need to relearn how much force I apply. There seems to be no consensus on how deep I should go. So I tried both bottoming out and till the bump. But I only feel the bump if I am focusing on it. If I go in work mode, I don't get any feedback and thus miss so many keys. I have been using it for 2 months and I feel it was waste of money.
Funny you mention the hard stop! I too play piano and guitar and have not had problems with them. However I joined a startup way back in 2005 and was working on a laptop for 12+ hours a day and started to get RSI and shooting pains in my left hand. I moved to a full-sized keyboard with Cherry MX Blue switches and have not had a problem since. HOWEVER I ended up putting those little red rubber O-ring on the switches to soften the stop years ago. I wonder if softening the stop has spared me from any RSI. My keyboard is also quite thick and 100% requires a palm rest to get hands to the proper level of the keyboard.
Edit: I see further below you mentioning trying out the O-rings and it made things worse for you. I might have lucked out in the hand-biomechanics part of my DNA.
Sorry to hear about your RSI troubles! The comments in this subthread sure highlight how many different experiences people have with RSI. I had a years-long bout with bilateral tenosynovitis 25 years ago and have had issues that I manage ever since. For me, the mechanical keyswitches (no bump) clearly help, as does tenting, splitting the board, and angling each half. I can't type on laptop keyboards for long durations without forearm pain, but on a Kinesis Freestyle Edge with MX Reds, I'm good to go as long as I take breaks every hour or two. YMMV!
I tried a couple mechanical keyboards recently, but in both cases the left `control` key was further away from the center (I guess because the space key was significantly longer) than with a mac keyboard. It made it an uncomfortably long reach for my finger and that's a key I use very frequently; so I had to go back to the magic keyboard. If I had forced myself to adapt to that longer reach I have no doubt I would have ended up experience various issues.
Different people type differently, which is one reason why it's hard for the community to give good feedback about what sort of keyboard or keyswitches you should buy. Since you're a heavy type that goes to bottom, you should look at a board with Topre switches. The venerable Happy Hacking Keyboard (HHKB) is one such design that's specifically built for coding.
You should consider a keyboard with Cherry Clear switches or similar. Brown and blue have a relatively short travel distance, and it sounds like you are a heavy typer.
I feel there's a full cycle of buying keyboards. I wonder do people feel the same?
1. Buy mechanical keyboards with click sounds, preferably blue switch ones.
2. (Optional) tweak keycaps
3. (Optional) tweak customized keyboards
4. Wondering if Topre or PFU is really better as people said. Then proceed to buy one, and couldn't be happier
5. Actually, I could be happier because I don't care about keyboards anymore - my favorite is a silent red switch one because it's doesn't draw attention (both mine and others'). Also never go back to keyboard forums or subreddits.
I just want the keyboard to have those nice color keycaps and the tactile sensation to remind me of old IBM keyboards I used to have as a child.
Those were the days when simply using a computer or touching a keyboard was a rush, computers were rare and everything was so mysterious. Now they are commodities without much poetry in them. So I want the poetry back.
I have 2 WASD's (blue and green), a Poker2, an OLD Razer Black Widow, and a few others. I always said that when Unicomp made a tenkeyless version, it would be a day-1 purchase. Two days ago, I just noticed that they started shipping in February. I bought one on the spot.
Note that the IBM Model M is actually a "membranical" design. Beneath the famous buckling spring is a bit of metal that strikes a contact membrane to close the circuit and register a keypress.
That said, it's nothing like the rubber dome pieces of crap we associate with membrane keyboards; its durability and keyfeel are still legendary. The membranical design may have contributed to its durability by making it less susceptible to dust and dirt.
I still love the patent name for it: "Catastrophically buckling compression column switch and actuator". Still wondering what is catastrophic about it.
I think there is a distinct branch to this path. When you start building your own mechanical, ergonomic keyboards. I know this because I have built my first one couple of weeks ago [1], and am already thinking of how I can improve it.
Same here. I built a Dactyl Manuform, and it was definitely worth the hassle. I do agree with the OP that the stuff you see on the MK subreddit and similar sites is ridiculous, and mostly rip-offs.
I cycle through these steps but, fortunately, only in my mind. I browse through e-commerce shops, read all the blogs, DYI keyboards and what not. But in the end I realize that my current keyboard, Apple Magic, isn’t too bad. So I tell myself if it isn’t broken why fix it and get back to work.
1. Skip your 1,2,3,4 and just get am inexpensive Cherry MX-Board
2. After several years, realize that I'm not really happy with keyboard because it boosts my bad posture. So I see if there is a split keyboard that suites my needs.
3. Damn, I need to test switches (luckily a friend has a nice selection of testers).
3. I think I might prefer tactile, but I don't want to blow the money on an expensive split keyboard to learn I don't like tactile - so better go with hot swappable switches.
4. Realize the exact board I would prefer doesn't exist.
5. Do some research on firmware, keyboard matrix circuit,...
6. Use the opportunity to learn kicad over eagle.
Started with 6. yesterday. Actually it's not that complicated, I'm more afraid of hand soldering 100 SK6812 Mini-E and 100 kailh sockets than of the rest.
When I opened up my board to swap the switches, I realized it had unused RGB pads...soo of course I hand solder 60 2-3mm surface mount LEDs to it. Yep, last time I do that :-P But it worked, which was the fun part...
the sad part is, I don't even like RBG on computer gear
I'm not a huge RGB person, either. But my Thinkpad has plain white background LEDs. And even though I type blindly 98% of the time, I find it more comfortable to have some (slight) hinting when positioning.
Sad part for me: TIL that most keycaps with "shine through" need the LED above/north of the switch (else the LED mostly blinds the user), which means I need to rotate all switches by 180 deg. But the GMK caps (which are considered some of the "best") are known to cause trouble with that orientation. And some switches might be feel different as well.
Yeah - my vortex rebuild (1) has south facing LEDs, so they're basically useless. The only thing I really liked about shine thru's was the ability to occasionally change up the legend colors (ohh - maybe amber or yellow legends today? or blue!)
I went somewhat differently, I tried a split wireless keyboard and couldn't go back after that but Bluetooth was flaky, so I designed my own (wired) one.
> Wondering if Topre or PFU is really better as people said.
I have one I love, bought it like 10 years ago. When I tried to buy a second one this year I had the bad surprise to discover they're not available with French layout anymore.
Anyway, some steps you forgot: the search for the best ergonomic keyboard and key layout.
I would buy a Ducky One 2 in the Skyline colors (reminds me of old Thinkpad keyboards with the blue return key), but they've been out of stock with a Nordic layout for 6 months now.
Yes I had to settle for something other than Skyline as well. I also bought a separate keykap set thinking it wouldn't come with any accent keycaps for WASD, but it did. So I have a lot of spare keycaps.
I don't know, I'd definitely call myself a mech keyboard fan, but not a zealot.
The one I'm typing on right now I've had since 2013 (changing key caps once in a while) and as I'm working from home, my private other one is close by.
I do have a few more (I think 3 others? [0]), but I've not found something to replace my daily driver and I'm not actively searchign. I'm not completely averse to building one at some point but I don't see the need, it might be a fun (expensive) project.
I always hated clicky switches and I have no idea why people like them. It's the quickest way to make a $1k keyboard feel as cheap as a clicky ballpoint pen. Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of clicky switches, I just think all existing variants get it completely wrong(maybe except one or two Alps switches, but that's another rabbit hole).
And you can pry my 40% split ergo out of my cold, dead hands. I don't care about Topre, just give me nice linear switches and a layout that won't kill my wrists and didn't originate in a prehistoric era when it comes to computers.
I recognized this would be the cycle, so jumped to the end as the first step. Where I'm looping though is on keyboard layouts, and I may end up going for a matrix/split keyboard but I'm holding off.
Hah, definitely didn't follow those steps myself, although I can see that being a popular template. I do hope mechanical keyboards become less associated with clicky switches over time. Before I realized the hobby wasn't necessarily dominated by loud clacky sounds, I not only didn't see the appeal, but actively detested the whole idea. +1 for silent linears.
Also, wanted to mention ergonomic layouts - would love for that space to be more mainstream! Some really cool stuff out there; I'm looking forward to getting a 3D printer someday and building some Dactyls.
Yes. I think it ends up starting with blue, peaking to a dream keyboard which looks different for different people, then finally moving gradually back to keyboards resembling mainstream usage.
But I also quite like not having to hit the keys because they're stiff. I have a mechanical with Gateron browns which is silent enough for when I'm alone. Whenever I switch back to my MBP (2013 model, so "old" keyboard) I always miss keys because I don't push hard enough on them. This even happens on my work HP ProBook, which I had always considered having very "soft" keys.
But I think the difference between mechanical and "soft dome" is that even though the latter are soft, it's an "on and off" affair. When you start pressing you have a lot of resistance, which all of a sudden disappears, and you can't stop the finger until you hit the bottom.
On my mechanical, it takes me maybe a day or two to get used when I switch back, but then I'm able to type much more softly. Not sure how this affects my typing speed, my feeling is that I type about the same. But it's much more comfortable.
My favorite dome keyboard right now is the MS Sculpt, but I would love a similarly-priced (~€100), similarly-shaped mechanical.
My current configuration has the softest MX keys I could find (like 30g) for all keys but the 8 keys on the home row where fingers sit at rest.
These home row keys are NovelKey Box tactile keys, something like 60g. They are heavily tactile, but not noisy.
The trick is that I can leave my fingers on these stiffer keys, relax them, and the keys won't press under their weight. I never have to remove my hands from the keyboard, they are always ready to type without staying tense.
I thought about that, but I actually don't have an issue with involuntary key presses on the Gateron browns. Ironically, this does tend to happen on the HP Laptop.
But I think it's related to the "on / off" thing. Usually my hands rest their weight on the wrist-rest, but if I happen to shift the weight towards the fingers, I'll feel the gaterons start to move and have the time to stop. With the laptop, on the other hand, I don't feel anything and when I do, it's too late.
I've experienced the same thing. All my fancy regular mechboards are sitting on the shelf while I daily drive electro-capacitive switches.
Epomaker makes a more affordable but equally as great Topre clone, compatible with MX keycaps: https://epomaker.com/collections/niz - I have one and got nothing but good things to say.
I have tried all Cherry's and I think brown or clear was the most similar to topre but I keep going back to topre. Not sure if there's something wrong with me or why Cherry's are so popular. Perhaps it's because they're modular whereas topre's aren't?
Oddly enough, it was aging that drew me to mechanical keyboards in the first place. I found that as I grew older, my hands started cramping when I typed, and the worse the keyboard, the more quickly my hands turned into gnarled, pain-wracked claws. Laptop keyboards were pretty bad but rubber-dome membrane keyboards -- of the type that just about everybody sold at the time -- were the worst.
Relief only came when I bought a Das Keyboard III with heavenly Cherry Blue switches.
I'm still rocking that board today, nearly 13 years later.
same here - as I got older, I really started to notice the stress typing put on my hands. Even though I use ultra heavy switches now (kailh box navies, cherry greens, etc) I still feel better at the end of the day. And switches don't register everytime my fingers twitch.
As someone who has owned an HHKB at one point, then switched over to a full-size Topre Realforce board, I have to say you should consider giving Topre-based switches another chance, but on a proper Realforce board instead. Unlike the HHKB, Realforce keyboards use a metal plate internally, which seems to make for a more satisfying "thock" if you will. Plus, you can also acquire a Realforce board with varied key weights instead of the uniform 45g weight found on the HHKB.
Are there any QMK-programmable Topre boards? I'm open to trying them out but not if I have to learn and get used to yet another layout for media controls.
Edit: Also, do I still need to lube them? I remember HHKB felt slightly "scratchy" by default. Some people would also say that cherry-likes also needs to be lubed but my Zealios boards feel awesome as-is.
Keyboard Quantizer makes any USB keyboard to support QMK by proxying USB. It won't support all QMK feature/key combination due to the architecture. Probably you can import it from Japan.
Good start, but your are missing a few things too. For example the culture of mechanical keyboards, or more importantly how that affects buying them for the first time and, when the time eventually comes, replacements.
Want to be able to replace your keyboard, or get another one for the office easily? Buy a Cherry G80-3000.
Want to get used to something only to find it’s incredibly hard to find a second one that matches your muscle memory? Get an RGB Vortex racer 3 pro or an AKKO3068 with a custom run of SA double shot hello sushi keycaps in limited edition dat boi green.
Want something that you can place in a backpack and not cry about when one of the 1000 tiny little bits of plastic — all of which are critical to the keyboard operation — snaps off as you pull it out? Keychron K1 or one of its siblings. (And this isn’t a slur on the K1’s build quality — all keyboards are, by their nature, delicate devices.)
I own all of the above and more. That’s not a flex. I’m an idiot. If I did it all again I’d buy a six pack of K1s and stop there. Unrelated: can I borrow some money?
(You have a typo fyi: “there are mainly four types of switches: black, brown, green, and brown”.)
1. Wireless is kind of a rarity in the MKB landscape
2. It's one of the more inexpensive hot-swappable boards out there, which is a stellar feature if you want to try different switches but dont want to buy an entire new keyboard.
I was not even remotely convinced that I would find a mechanical keyboard to be a superior option 6 months ago. But I was frustrated after my Apple Magic Keyboard 2 died. It was probably even under warranty, but mid-pandemic that was unapproachable.
A friend recommended Keychron. After 6 months of using the K1, I'm not sure I could ever go back. I've bought a case for carrying it around, because as another comment mentions the keycaps are prone to coming off in my bag.
I have the red low-profile switches, and they're not as quiet as a membrane keyboard, but they're not loud enough to annoy the only other person I share a work/living space with, so that's all that matters.
The wireless is definitely an important feature for me as well. My Macbook Pro is already a dongle party without needing to plug a keyboard in as well.
It's not as low-profile as the Magic Keyboard 2, but it's a tradeoff that I'm prepared to accept. It's well and truly earned it's place in my backpack.
Can confirm - Keychron didn't even come up on my initial searches a few years ago for mechanical + wireless, and I ended up with a couple (work, home) of the Logitech G613.
These are good, solid devices, with a nice response - however both are starting to give me double characters on some keys. I'm wary about popping the tops on the keys, and so far some good thumps / blowing out around the affected keys has resolved the problems. However, reviews around the net suggest this is a problem that tends to get worse with this model.
The Keychron is now on my shortlist once these Logitechs are unusable.
All mechanical switches are prone to bounce and oxidation. You can try contact cleaner or switch replacement (some keyboards have slotted switches that can be replaced without soldering).
Consider next a keyboard with programmable firmware (QMK) so you can adjust and mitigate bounce in software.
Noted, thank you - but a quick search suggests Keychron isn't in that category. On the other hand, they have replaceable caps that are (individually) quite cheap.
I'm 6-12 months away from a follow-up purchase, but will tag QMK options for the next search.
I have K2 which I bought for the form factor (75%, 84 key, laptop-like, etc).
It works fairly well for me, but I find it needs a wrist rest.
However, I would love for there to be a "autonomous" wireless option. Bluetooth works OK on both my MBP and Linux laptop. But I can't use it fully under Linux, since I have full-disk encryption and so need a keyboard during the early boot stages. Also, my main computer doesn't have Bluetooth...
All in all I'm not disappointed, I wasn't looking for a wireless keyboard and knew it was bluetooth only.
I’m waiting for the Nordic layout K1 (brown switches) to appear to try a mechanical keyboard for the first time, good to hear their build quality is acceptable (been reading some online reviews, and some people seem to have issues with Keychron boards).
Can you suggest one that might pair well with the Contour RollerMouse Red?
I both love and hate this mouse. It’s fixed my RSI but it has been unreliable and limited keyboard choices. Also, I can hear coil whine when I use it wirelessly!
In my opinion any modern guide that frames switches in terms of Cherry MX flavors is doing people a disservice. Double so for calling them "the gold standard"...
Gone are the days of Cherry having the only quality switches, now they're just mediocre slightly over-expensive switches.
Stuff like T1s, anything Gazzew puts out, etc. are not much more (or even cheaper) but give a much more enjoyable experience. Actuation point, tactile bump, and spring weight are three very easy to explain concepts that let someone go out and find a switch that's perfect for them
I honestly don't understand the fascination with keyboards. For as long as I can remember, I've always used the cheapest keyboard I can find on Amazon, usually around $10. I've written software, books and movies on shitty keyboards. What's a fancy keyboard supposed to give me?
Much like the quality of a photographer is quite independent of their camera (in fact, the easiest way to insult a photographer is to tell them "wow, what a beautiful picture, what camera do you have?" ), I don't see how a keyboard can make any difference in the quality of the stuff I make. What am I missing?
The thing you touch and interact with every day, better be beautiful and bring you joy, whether through aesthetics, tactile feel, personalized function, or whatever else, hencewhy "custom" is the keyword here.
Nothing to do with quality of your typing or the work.
You don't opt out for the cheapest possible decor because it "does the job", your environment affects the way you feel and this is just one ways to express one's own.
A nice mechanical keyboard is nice, especially to touch type on. It's only going to improve your writing in the sense that you'll be in a better headspace when you write because you're using a nice keyboard, but then how many hours a day do you spend typing? Is it not worth spending them typing on something you actually enjoy using?
The quality of a photographer may be independent of their camera but I guarantee professional photographers don't use cheap shitty cameras.
Edit: Tradition dictates a car analogy, so - when I bought my first car I couldn't understand why people thought disk brakes were better. I mean, you can lock the wheels with drum brakes so they're equivalent, right? Then when I got my second car with all-round disk brakes I was retrospectively horrified that I'd ever trusted my first car's brakes with anything.
Of course, a year later when I was more confident and started testing the limits of my second car, I found out the difference between disk brakes and racing brakes...
I owned a used, but lovingly cared for, Volvo S80 T60. It was a magical car. The ride, the handling, the power, the comfort, the stereo. Everything about it was better than my current Honda Accord. My wife couldn't tell the difference in any of these things in driving it, or at least didn't care. It's a stretch, but I can imagine that undiscerning people could think a $10 membrane keyboard is fine. Statistics say those people should exist. What I can't understand is why anyone would want to spend even 5 minutes typing on one of those external Mac "magic" keyboards. They are truly terrible. Yet I know multiple people who prefer them over anything else. It just goes to show that you can't account for taste.
I used to use Mac keyboards because I wanted to minimize the difference in typing feel between using the laptop keyboard and using the external keyboard. I thought I was used to that and would never want to use a mechanical keyboard, because I thought I valued very small "travel" in the keys. I quickly found that I actually really liked both the tactile feel and somewhat low audible click of the Cherry Browns.
So I sort of moved from thinking I liked laptop keyboards, and hated mechanical ones, to appreciating the qualities of a good mechanical keyboard.
I used a mechanical keyboard (mk for short here on out) for a while after being loaned one by a Mechanical Keyboard Zealot coworker. (he was actually super laid back, and would just lend out keyboards to people :) )
After that I bought a Corsair keyboard because I wanted to get a mk as easily as possible and didn't want to try to decode the mk subreddit. Then that started to "break" (just needed cleaning, whoops, I gave it to my nephew to go with his parents' xmas present of a gaming PC) and I got myself a Ducky mk.
I also tried the ErgoDox but was getting frustrated with it during a crunch time at work, and put it aside for the ducky. One day I want to try the split keyboard again.
I'm currently typing on a keychron keyboard that I like well enough to use instead of the magic keyboard, but I'm more accurate and faster on the magic keyboard.
As a bonus, the magic keyboard's lower profile means that I don't have to use a wrist rest when I use it, unlike all of my mechanicals, even though I've got the lowest profile available mechanical.
They're extremely well engineered keyboards not worthy of your hate.
It will depend on the switch, but personally on cherry blues and browns I can type while looking away from the keyboard (or screen) with basically 0 typos. On cheap keyboards either I type harder (and slower) on purpose to be sure or I just miss keystrokes randomly.
I can get by with a rubber dome keyboard by if I just write comments like this one, or light office work, where I see immediately what I type, but certain tasks don't have visual feedback (or you just look elsewhere).
In my case, using Vim in normal mode (command chains aren't usually seen until they execute), taking notes off meetings/presentations, doing translation work, adapting code snippets from elsewhere, and refactoring code benefit greatly from touch typing.
Not OP, but I do touch-type fairly accurately at around 85-95wpm, even on cheapo keyboards. I don't like it, but mechs are hard to find and expensive where I am.
> but mechs are hard to find and expensive where I am.
Same, but you might want to look into "gamer keyboards", those are usually easier to find. I ended up buying one of those from Razer (this one: https://www.razer.com/gaming-keyboards/Razer-Huntsman-Tourna...) that serves the purpose just fine and I can't say I have any complaints. (Though I obviously have no point of reference on how it compares with other mechanical keyboards.)
Pretty sure I could shave off $50 of the price of a new one and resell it to some teenager if I ever wanted to.
> Much like the quality of a photographer is quite independent of their camera
And yet you'll have a really hard time finding a professional photographer using a cheap compact camera or their iPad to do their work. Just like you'll rarely see a professional developer writing code in Notepad.
I can type just as fast on a standard $10 keyboard as on my custom one. But on mine I can type more accurately, more comfortably for much longer periods, I can change the layout at any time as it's fully programmable, and at the same time it feels nicer. Why would I not use it?
I enjoy typing on a mechanical keyboard. It's a pleasant tactile experience. That's all. No big performance or cognititive benefit, but why does there need be?
It's the same reason I have a plant on my desk. I like to look at it. It doesn't make me smarter, but that doesn't mean watering it is a waste of time.
It's special because it's the main output interface between your mind and the network. You spend many days of your life on this device. It doesn't need to be cheap, for the same reason that the shoes of the professional football player does not need to be cheap, he could also score with bare foot.
Ignorance is bliss - and I genuinely don't mean this in a negative way. I was perfectly happy with my cheap keyboard until I got tempted into a mechanical and now I love it. But it's great to be happy with what you have. Desire can be a source of unhappiness!
Generally speaking (there are always exceptions), mechanical keyboards are one of those things that you cannot live without any more once you use them. Before that, it's hard to see a point, but going back from a good mechanical to a mushy keyboard is hard.
Typing is just more fun on them. It's similar to having a favorite coffee mug for drinking coffee.
For me it is just more fun to write on a mechanical keyboard. I've never measured it, but I think that I'm writing a bit faster on it. But anyway, there is no other reason for me than that I like the the feeling, the sound and the mechanical quality. It's like drinking good wine.
It's about ergonomics. To me, a mechanical keyboard is more comfortable to type on.
I actually chose the camera I use for a similar reason. It doesn't have the fanciest electronics, but it has all the important controls on physical dials which make it more pleasant to use.
Most of these points already have been mentioned (e.g. ergonomics. My hands stopped hurting after switch to kinesis advantage. (but bevare of the so called “ergonomic” keyboards that actually are not))
There is anothe use case for fancy keyboards: a keyboard made for specific application. I you spend most of your work time in ProTools / Resolve / InDesign / expensive CAD, then an extended keyboard makes a lot of sense.
A related example is the majority of cash registers: those apple/banana key grids? They are likely a programmable computer keyboard! Those are cheap and not “fancy”, though...
On top of all the subjective emotional things, I can clearly see a difference in typing speed and accuracy. I do typing speed test from time to time and it was constant for quite some years, until I got a mech. When I got another (better) mech it got even better still. If you touch type and you are already fast, the tactile feedback of switches really closes up the feedback loop a lot better. Your fingers know you screwed up, before your eyes have to see the mistake. And it's also easier on my hands for some reason, but may have more complex causes.
I've always used the cheapest keyboard I can find on Amazon, usually around $10. I've written software, books and movies on shitty keyboards. What's a fancy keyboard supposed to give me?
I could feel the early onset of what could have become full blown carpal tunnel early in my career; since switching to mechanicals I have had absolutely zero problems. A Cherry keyboard isn't that expensive and will last forever. For me it is a very worthwhile investment in my health and the longevity of my career.
There several reasons, some of them make logical sense, others don't ;-) Some people for example try to optimize ergonomics/efficiency. There is in my experience a lot of overlap with people liking mechanical keyboards (and if it is only for the feel of them ) and people trying to optimize keyboard layouts by using some advanced firmware such as https://docs.qmk.fm.
Nothing a Leica rangefinder would have given you if you were not a photo journalist in the late 50s.
A "special" keyboard can offer you a lot if you have an itch to scratch. Typing faster, relieving pain, automating sequences, enjoying the clicks, fast focus in low light, no mirror vibration in low light conditions, compact package, ruggedness...
As a side note, photographers are really picky about their gear :)
If you want a standard keyboard with a standard layout or something similar, a cheap rubber dome keyboard is going to work just as well as my $600 keyboard. If that's the type of keyboard you want, the reason people like them is because they think they sound nicer, feel nicer, and in many cases look nicer. They also have better built quality and people appreciate well-built things.
However, there are also situations where people are getting tangible benefits from mechanical keyboards. Some people don't have much desk space, so you can get a smaller keyboard and save room. It also makes them more portable if you feel like taking it with you.
Another tangible benefit is programmability and the use of layers. Some people work faster and more efficiently with a smaller keyboard with multiple layers. Another reason to use layers is for different use cases. I can have one layer programmed with a bunch of hotkeys for Photoshop, another layer for just normal typing/computer use, and another layer setup for gaming.
Another thing to consider is ergonomics. I 3d printed a case for a Dactyl Manuform and hand-wired my own customized, split ergonomic keyboard. After switching to it, the tendonitis in my wrist cleared up.
So, there is value to be found. However a lot of the people that want mechanical keyboards just want something that feels like it is a quality device. If that's what you're looking for, you can get something that will likely be the nicest keyboard you've ever used for $200 or less. Once you get to the $500+ mark for an entire build, you are venturing into the territory where its more of a fashion accessory. People want cases made by certain designers and while in some cases they have better features or are machined to a higher standard, you quickly run into diminishing returns.
IMO if someone wants to get into mechanical keyboards, its hard to beat the standard model of GMMK keyboards for the price. You can get it for $60 without switches or keycaps. At that point pay $30-40 for Box Jade switches if you like clicky switches, $70-100 for zeal helios switches if you like smooth linear switches, or $50 for aliaz 70g tactile switches if you like MX browns. After that spend $30-50 on a cheap but decent PBT keycap set. Finally, do about 10 minutes worth of simple modifications to the keyboard and you'll end up with something that gets you 95% of the value you'd get out of a $2000 keyboard at 1/10th of the price.
>the new 'elite' looks to have taken it up a notch too.
I got their new "Pro" as a secondary keyboard. Its really nice, however, unlike most of the reviewers I didn't like the polycarbonate plate. I put the stock aluminum one back into it because the polycarbonate one flexes so much the contacts on the switches won't stay in the sockets. Still once that issue was resolved its a great keyboard with a ton of cool features at a pretty affordable price (relatively).
>I originally got one, as it was hotswap and almost as cheap as a switch tester. But it compares well with say my Ducky.
My original standard GMMK ended up being a better keyboard than my first custom kit I spend over $300 on. For some reason my linear switches felt smoother on it, I had less issues, and the build quality was solid enough.
heh - yeah, I rebuilt a Vortext Cypher (1) including adding SMT leds to unused pads on the board... What I learned about soldering was worth the cost of the board :-) I like heavy switches so I put kaihl box navies in it. Its probably just bias, but its still my favorite board.
I have RSI in my wrists; going from the normal average keyboards I'd used my entire life to a mechanical keyboard was like having my fingers slide on butter. It feels a lot better; less impact on my fingers, don't have to bottom out. It is also nice while playing games to get the key to register half way, can jam keys much faster.
Monitor size and keyboard are far more important than the process speed in my experience. The bottleneck is never the processor speed or even RAM, but mostly the human working memory and cognitive capacity. Bigger monitor helps the former and good keyboard helps the latter with less typos.
From my experience using mech keyboards for the last 10 years I would say the reliability is a bit of a myth. I've broken 3 keyboards so far. By the time I had 1 switch fail lots others feel worn out so not worth repairing if you can't do it yourself.
If you are after your first mech do test out multiple switch types. A world of difference between them and it depends on personal preference, you can't decide by reading about them.
Also consider a model without numpad if you don't use it often. For me it is a big comfort improvement not having the mouse so far away.
It really depends how the board is built. Cherry switches are very unpopular in the community, but they do excel in reliability. There's a reason you still occasionally see POS terminals in your local fast food restaurant use grime-filled disgusting but functional (and by now considered vintage, up to $7 per switch) MX Blacks.
What do you mean "unpopular"? Weren't they the one and only just a year or two ago? When I've been shopping for my TKL keyboard, they were basically the only option.
Well, in the enthusiast circles they are unpopular.
Compared to alternatives, Cherry has barely innovated in the past 20 years. Their switches are scratchy. Browns are barely tactile if you compare them to the competition, often jokingly called "linear with sand in it". The blue has much better alternatives using clickbars instead of clickjackets and clickies are much less popular in the enthusiast space, because they care about good sounding thocks. The lesser known colors are all extremely heavy. MX Clears (as parts, for making frankenswitches) and heavily lubed Blacks (particularly with housings produced before the 2000s, aka "Vintage Blacks") have a small following,
but that's really it.
OEMs are only very slowly catching up to this, but they are. A few months back we even had the first OEM board with Zealios switches!
It's a lot of 65% and 75% now. There's not really the one chase switch anymore, but OG Holy Pandas retained their value pretty well considering Glorious got very close to them.
As a counter anecdote, in about ~15 years of using mechanical keyboards I've never had one fail. I had a daily driver for 7 years that was good as new when I eventually gave it to a friend.
Couldn't agree more about the other two points though. To go along with your second point I would also strongly suggest looking for a keyboard that is hot swappable. You can use a switch tester and all that, but only actual experience will tell you what you really want, and I think very few people end up sticking with the first switch they have. A hot swappable board will let you alter the switches without replacing the whole device.
I concur with the last two points as well. It is a bit annoying, but I recommend getting 3 or 4 of a single switch to put in a tester to mimic "real typing".
I am a strongly believer of smaller is better, my daily driver is a 48 key ortholinear board. I use a 60% from time to time, and it feels gigantic. I can't even imagine going back to a full 104 keyboard.
Easier to repair though. Eg my supplier allowed me to attempt a repair myself while still honouring guarantee if I failed. Worked out so saved shipping to Germany and a replacement cost for supplier
Many third party switches, especially in the "super smooth feeling" category, seem to be using softer plastics than original Cherry switches. Those iirc have a little bit of glass fill in them, which makes the material much tougher and more wear-resistant, but results in the "crunchy" feeling of the switches.
Bouncy switches are a real problem with third-party switches as well, even though cherries generally don't do that.
My daily driver is a 30 year old Apple Extended Keyboard II, however I did have to go through several (6) to find one that only needed minor repair and had the right feel. Now that I have though, I feel pretty confident I can repair any switch that starts to act up.
I don't know what people do with their keyboards but for decades I've been using cheap membrane keyboards for coding/gaming and never had reliability problems, and I keep a keyboard 5y+. I just changed because I wanted to really.
They do, but they're rare. I had my eye on a group buy for a left numpad mechanical keyboard, but it was like $300 minimum and it didn't even include switches or keycaps.
A right-handed friend of mine straight up switched mousing hands after I suggested it as a joke. I think he still mouses with his left hand to this day. I tried for a little while, but it was like learning to walk all over again and I couldn't get used to it.
Topre keyboards are my holy grail honestly. They aren't technically "mechanical" keyboards since they still use rubber domes but are still well-known and respected in the MK community (albeit memed upon often). Since Topre uses proprietary switches based on capacitance there isn't as big of a modding community around them but the keyboards are mostly produced in Japan (Realforce) and Korea (Leopold) and have insane build quality.
As a relatively fast typist (~150wpm) the tactility and comfort of topres feel superior to me in every way. And oh man the sound - do yourself a favor and look up a video of a silenced Realforce or Leopold - they sound like gentle raindrops and are insanely therapeutic when working.
I've been using a RealForce keyboard for years and it's an absolute joy to type on. With a decent wrist I've never felt any fatigue even after very productive days.
I wish I'd bought a silent one though, whenever I forget to mute myself on Zoom my typing is clearly audible. Not everyone appreciates the 'thonk'.
Along those lines, I have plans to purchase a Matias Ergo Pro as my first foray into mechanical. I can't type on a non-ergo keyboard (I've been using the Microsoft Natural for over a decade), and I'm thrilled at the idea of going mechanical, but the noise bothers me.
I heard a side-by-side of a silenced topre (realforce 87u) vs Matias quiet click, the the silenced topre is much quieter.
Any hot swappable ergonomic board will be fine. Hot swappable means the switches can be pulled out of the sockets on the circuit board. Otherwise, you'd have to desolder the switches.
Edit: Do not worry, assembling a keyboard from parts is childs play. There's not a lot that can go wrong, just be careful not to damage the circuit board, and check that it fits the case.
Thanks for responding to me... I went into a deep dive, since I didn't know that was a possibility. Unfortunately, there are no full-size split hot-swappable ergonomic boards.
I can deal with a separate numpad, and I can use shortcuts to replace media/brightness/volume keys, but you can take away my arrow keys when you can pry them out of my cold, dead hands ;-) I'm not ready to go the chording route of something like the ErgoDox.
I found the Cloud Nine C989M, not hot-swappable, but ANSI layout only, no ISO, so it's out of bounds.
The Keebio has the Quefrency, which I can kit out with a separate numpad and wrist rests, but that's not hot swappable, and 1.5 to 2x the Matias Ergo Pro.
I think for now, it'll have to be the Matias, and maybe later I'll decide it's worth the investment to go chorded, or invest 4x what I'm used to (as opposed to 2x)
I was seriously disappointed by the HHKB. My Type S is still kicking around in a closet, it's just a very rattly/plasticy feeling keyboard for the price point.
Boba U4 is a mechanical switch that gives an extremely similar feel to a Topre, but is dramatically less key wobble which makes a huge difference
Here's my opinion as to why you might avoid a linear switch: They are just too easy to press. That is indeed nice for gaming, but you will send keystrokes just setting your fingers on the home row.
Also, this guide seems to be a rehash of what was available 10 years ago. It would be nice if you covered some of the newer options. Personally I dipped my toes in the water for the first time about 6 months ago and didn't recognize anything that was actually on the market compared to when I bought my first board with MX Blues back in 2010, and this is more or less the extent of the knowledge you could get back then.
That's an issue with extremely light (read: cherry red or equivalents), but if you get heavier switches you are very unlikely to have this issue. You are more likely to accidentally actuate a cherry brown than a black, for example.
Also I agree with your second point. If nothing else, it should be mentioned that you're more likely to see Gateron/Kailh in mass market boards these days. They do use a very similar color scheme which makes it easier for beginners though.
I got a board with silent reds (Durgod K320), and they felt really soft after using blue switches for a while before that. So I ordered a Leopold with black switches, figuring I'd enjoy the quieter linear switches but make fewer mistakes.
I was amazed at how much different the black switches felt. Pressing them a few times felt good, but when I actually tried to work with it my hands got tired really quickly and it became distracting.
The K320 with silent reds is now my go-to board, except for a wireless Vortex Tab 75. I'm currently waiting on a Tab 75 with silent reds, and I hope that will be my One True Keyboard.
I have the very same kb with silent blacks. I had had reds before and found them too easy to press - I suppose I do a lot of drumming fingers on the keys or just resting hands on the keyboard. I found the silent blacks to be perfect and not at all tiring after a full day of use.
I think it goes to show everybody is different and has different habits.
I have a K320 with browns. Maybe browns are for you, they have a tactile feedback like the black, but it's much weaker, like the blues so you don't get tired. They are much more silent than the blues (no click), but are a bit louder than the silent reds.
I'm currently using a Cherry G80-1800 with blacks (just got it, still got the honeymoon factor). I'm not really a gorilla man but I've had a lot of accidental presses. My normal board is running holy pandas which are lighter weight, but I never get accidental presses because the tactile bump keeps me away from the actuation point unless I actually want to press it.
Fair enough. I guess if you use the bump of the keys as your resting point then linears could give you trouble. I tend to just gently rest my fingertips on the keys without depressing them at all (I'm on 45g linears right now with no trouble). I guess it just depends on your style.
when i first got my MX Brown keyboard i was making typos all over the place. i wasn't used to how little i had to apply pressure to actuate a key. over time, i got used to it and i forgot i ever had that problem.
i remember when i see people who've never used Browns before sit down and struggle in the same way i first did.
My number one requirement for a keyboard is that it be quiet and not outrageously expensive, this pretty much rules out mechanical keyboards entirely.
The thing that annoys me most, is there is almost no discussion about good membrane keyboards. It's the same blog spam of 5 promoted keyboards on every blog. I'm probably just going to get whatever is the most popular membrane keyboard sold at microcenter and call it a day.
My keyboard of choice right now is Logitech MX Keys.
- High quality construction, nice and heavy, won't slide around on table
- Almost no wobble in keys, and you can hit a key anywhere on the key including the corner, reliably
- Keycaps can be rearranged to Dvorak if you are very careful
- USB-C charging (as much as I HATE USB-C itself, most of my other devices are USB-C so it's reasonably convenient except for the occasional connector snapping but that happens with all my USB-C devices)
- Illuminated
- Battery life is at least a couple weeks if you turn off the illumination
- Really nice typing feel if you like chiclet keyboards
- Can be switched between 3 devices and works with either Logitech or Bluetooth protocols. I have one device as Bluetooth with my phone and one device as Logitech with my desktop. So if I want to type on my phone I just hit one key to switch to my phone and start typing.
The biggest downside is Logitech receivers suck, and don't work if plugged into a USB3 port directly. You'll want to get a USB2 hub and plug the receiver into the USB2 hub. No big deal for desktops but could be annoying if you are trying to use this with a laptop.
There's also a Logitech Craft keyboard which is basically the same thing with a configurable input dial. I didn't buy it because to be useful to me I need way more than 1 dial. If it had at least 5, maybe 10 dials at the top I'd definitely be interested.
There are tons of mechanical options that are reasonably priced and not particularly loud. Honestly as long as you’re not getting clicky switches it’s very unlikely to be an issue. If you get a board with silent switches then the volume is about the same as membrane.
My work keyboard has red (linear) switches which are slightly quieter than my neighboring coworker's membrane keyboard. I've been thinking about getting some O-rings so it can be basically silent.
Honestly I think a good enough membrane keyboard is probably good enough. Above a certain baseline functionality, keyboards are all about preference. I like the ones that come with HP business desktops (model KU-0316), which tend to be pretty consistent. I've heard lots of good things about Logitech, but my only recent experience is with the MK320. It's decent for typing but has a weird nav key arrangement.
I can't stand mechanical keyboards and I'm a programmer.
I've had a great experience with my Logitech MX Keys. It costs about $100 USD and is one of the best keyboards I've ever used. Great mechanical keyboard.
At home I use the Logitech K360 which I paid less than $30 USD for. My desk is really small so I needed a smaller keyboard but wanted one that still had a num pad on it. This one fits the space I have and it types/codes just fine.
I also found it difficult to find a nice quiet inexpensive membrane keyboard. I ended up just buying a $15 AmazonBasics model. Its nothing special but it works, could be a bit quieter. Still looking for something nice.
I'm a Microsoft Ergonomic keyboard diehard, despite having generally terrible experiences with longevity. I went through quite a few Natural 4000 before switching to the chiclet style Sculpt Ergonomic. I wore out the L on one and the F5 on another. Like, they would work, but you had to press hard and intentionally, so they were basically dead.
I very briefly tried a Logitech G910 Orion Spectrum, and realized it was loud as hell, and it was huge. Returned it.
Just today I unboxed a Microsoft Ergonomic Keyboard. I'm hoping for a Natural 4000 experience. So far, it's a learning curve going back from the chiclet experience, but the wrist rest is great, noise is very reasonable, and I'm learning well enough to type on it. Who knows, fatigue-wise, how I'll feel in a week. But it was just $40 from Amazon, so it isn't too much of a gamble.
+1 for Keychron (also not affiliated), the C2 in my case since I don't need wireless. It's hard to find pre-built mechanical keyboards with Mac layouts. I previously had a WASD but made the mistake of going with clear switches that hurt my hand after extended typing sessions. That's not WASD's fault—it's otherwise a good keyboard—but there's no way to change the switches on that one. The Keychron can even be hot-swappable, and it was less than half the price of the WASD for comparable build quality.
> It's hard to find pre-built mechanical keyboards with Mac layouts
Yea isn't that the truth. To be fair I think the market is likely smaller and judging from my own just general experience most opt for Apple's Magic Keyboard - which is a fine keyboard and I'd be mostly happy with one (especially with Touch ID integrated so I don't have to reach over to my Air to unlock) but I prefer the mechanical key typing and feeling.
I have the KeyChron K2 as well for anyone wondering.
I must admit, during work from home I have enjoyed using a keyboard far louder and more satisfying than anything I'd consider using in an open plan office. It'll stay here, and be another reason to spend at least a couple of days a week at home for the foreseeable future.
At home I have a Matias Tactile Pro, which uses a kind of modern take on alps switches. I love the feel but man, that thing is a gatling gun. Borderline ridiculous.
At home I use buckling springs (Unicomp model M style plugged into an iMac) - I live alone and can make lots of typing noise. In the office its a Filco with some color Cherry switch I forget but its a lot better than the keyboard that came with the box they supply.
It's funny, because some of my colleagues are thinking of switching the other way around, at least during video conferencing. They have to mute themselves to do a quick Google search, otherwise you have this annoying sound when you talk.
That's interesting. The etiquette where I work has sprung up to keep yourself muted unless you're the one talking, and if you're talking you're not typing, so it's less of an issue.
The etiquette is roughly similar, it's just that sometimes the person talking is also the one needing to get more info, e.g. open the relevant ticket or something. It's certainly not impossible to mute while they do the search, but apparently it's annoying enough that they have thought about changing the keyboard.
Honest personal opinion is that all of this stuff is a bit much. I agree that the stock keyboard you get with pcs and most laptops are a joke, but for most people (even engineers) a decent regular keyboard should be sufficient? Isn't the point of devices like keyboards and mice to disappear from my head so you only think about what's on the screen and what you're doing with it?
If this is what you want to spend your spare time discussing and buying sure, but let's not propagate any pseudo scientific facts about the superiority of mechanical keyboards in any regard. I've only seen people slow down typing in these clackety things going from an apple keyboard and I don't want to be in any zoom meeting with these folks either.
I had to try and went trying and bought a blue key mech board. They are great for gaming of course. After a year I went back and bought a silent Matias Mac replica keyboard. Used Mac keyboards for many years before, they are soft and low with optimal distance between keys, but enough tactile function to not make mistakes when resting.
Perhaps most of us get accustomed to what we have used for the longest time and want to use that.
Doesn't seem to be mentioned in many mechanical keyboard articles these days, but I still find the buckling spring style switches an absolute joy to type on. The classic IBM Model M keyboard.
Note that even the Model M buckling spring mechanism is a step down from the earlier Model F buckling spring, which some people consider to be better. Personally I have not tried the latter as any surviving examples are quite expensive. But the mechboard world is a never ending hole, at least until you hit working beam springs, I think. :)
I had a model F AT, but sold it; it was a truly amazing keyboard, but the layout was a little too weird for me to get used to. Beautiful feel, though, and a satisfying wonky clonk sound.
My holy grail is a buckling spring ortholinear keyboard. I don'kt think that's going to happen anytime soon so I made a Kailh Pink XD75. It's as close as I can get, but that new Unicomp without the numpad looks amazing.
For me it's not so important that the keys are mechanical, but that it is split. It is so much more pleasant to type with my hands straight out in front of me than cramped together in the centre. The fact that most split keyboards are mechanical is just a, slightly pleasant, side effect.
I like pressing the switches. No mush. Feels good. That's all there is to it, in my experience. Compared to my laptop, it makes zero difference with regards to typing speed and arthritis. But yeah, I like it.
Maybe I'm a minority, but I've been happy with my 10-year-old Das Keyboard (cherry blue) for home usage and 4-year-old FILCO Majestouch (cherry brown) for the office. They're "boring" - they don't have anything fancy on them but they look like keyboards and they're pleasurable to type on.
Recently, I thought of replacing my Das Keyboard and tried to get something equally "boring" - it was sad to see that they don't have the boring option anymore without at least one or two spinny wheel or flash function key.
I was in a market for a mech. keyboard last month, and after trying out few, I settled on the Logitech G915 TLK (ten keyless), white
It is expensive but the best out there by far.
The black one comes in tactile, clicky blue, and linear, and the white version is tactile only.
Both the clicky (blue) switches and the tactile feel great (you can test them out at a best buy). The clicky/linear/tactile keys are offered only on the black version, while the white one has tactile only.
If you like tactile keys, Get the WHITE version (it is slightly different, and better than the tactile black). It is very low profile, and you don't need a wrist, rest. Also the keycap shape is great for programmers (it is more flat than others, but it has a slight curve, and a bevel).
This comment gives me some seriously mixed feelings.
I guess it's like a prebuilt computer vs a custom build.
If you're interested in learning about mechs, ok with ordering from a few different places, you can build a keyboard significantly better than that Logitech for half the price.
For the same price you'd get a keyboard in an entirely different bracket of quality (imo the Logitech is about where $50 mechs from companies like Reddragon are, just with some better QC and CS)
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But if you're not ok with all that, then it's a slightly different story?
I mean that Logitech specifically has low profile switches which are not great, and the keycaps typical chintsy Logitech ones (bad) and are non-standard (really bad, imo that defeats one of the best things about a mech).
It's a very specific keyboard for a very specific kind of consumer, I definitely wouldn't call it the best.
If someone's not interested in wireless as a hard requirement, Ducky keyboards have excellent keycaps and better build quality.
If you need wireless I'd recommend the Keychron K6, hot swappable so you can experiment with different switches, normal keycap situation, all around a solid keyboard.
* Differences in keystroke logging - this has nothing to do with the switch and everything to do with the design of the traces on the board, the controller, and the interface to the computer. There are plenty of what you would consider to be mechanical keyboards by your definition that are 3KRO/6KRO. A beginner reading this article may wrongly assume that if it has a discrete switch it must be NKRO.
* Typing feel - this too is a problematic claim because many very good keyboards (Topre, IBM Model M) employ a membrane.
* Lifespan - I struggle with this claim as I've seen many very old membrane keyboards and I've had mechanical keyboards fail early. I think there are too many factors and components that go into a keyboard to claim they will have long life solely because the switches may be tested at millions/billions of actuations.
* Travel Distance - while this is mostly accurate there are a few "speed" variants that have been popularized by gaming brands. They may offer a superior gaming experience but some people may find typing on these keyboards to be cumbersome.
In my opinion there is really no optimal keyboard for everyone. What works for someone may feel terrible for others. It's really about what your personal preference is be it "mechanical", membrane, or heck even apple butterfly.
I wish I could find a good replacement for my trusty Logitech UltraX keyboard. I used a silver PS/2 model back in the day, replaced it with a black USB model (the UltraX Premium, apparently) when those came out, and have been using it ever since.
It's the closest thing I've found to an old-school Thinkpad keyboard, with a full standard layout and volume control media keys.
For all the flak that gets thrown at scissor keys for being fragile and vulnerable to dust and hair, I've had very few issues. Some compressed air and optionally a toothbrush and tweezers take care of that just fine once every 6 months or so, I very rarely have to pop a key cap off to clean out anything.
I have been thinking about switching to a mechanical keyboard, but I'm not sure it's worth it. I really like the good (old 7-row) Thinkpad-style scissor keys, and would like something like that. I know IBM/Lenovo used to make a full-size keyboard with the Thinkpad mechanism and a tenkeyless version that was straight up a Thinkpad keyboard in a USB-connected case. Obviously those can't be found new anymore, only the modern chiclet-style Lenovo keyboard, which is just acceptable rather than desirable.
I'm loving my DREVO Tyrfing 87-key. I also got the Keychron K2 (bluetooth). Really love them both, love the sound of the DREVO, it's using their 'Black' switches, amazing to use.
The Keychron has brown switches, much lighter and causes a lot of typos. I'm the type of person who likes to rest their hands on the keyboard.
Check key caps on AliExpress, easy to customize both keyboard to your liking. No need to spend a fortune on this hobby.
This is a nice introduction and the link at the bottom provides some good depth for people looking to go a bit further.
As an enthusiast who has built many keyboards, I wish the public could get easier access to more "boutique" switches. Gateron yellow (linear), Box Jade (clicky), and Zilent 67s (tactile) are amazing, but you pretty much have to be ready to build your own deck to use them.
Hotswap makes it easier than ever, If you just want a platform to try different switches a board from the GK series works fine too. Fully assembled board for less than a $100 is totally possible.
Also, try Boba U4s, beats out Zilents at half the price, use the lower weight variants for more pronounced tactility.
It's really weird that Gateron Yellows aren't in more mass market boards. Even when Gateron switches are used it's nearly always Reds, despite the Yellows generally being much preferred as far as I can tell.
People who are not too far into keyboards often have a vendetta against actuation force before they give heavier switches a week or two. You can see this in the video LTT did on blind switch tests, they picked the most mainstream (including MX browns in the tactile category, considered garbage by most of the community) switches because they were familiar.
I feel like a perv, but I love the mushy soft travel of membrane keyboards. I have four Logitech G11-s for all my devices - the 3x18 extra keys are also great - they go strong since 15 years.
The feats of mechanical do appeal tho, and I fear what happens when they broke - but none of the switches could come close to this typing experience, and all I tried were way too loud.
Honestly credit for knowing what you like and not caving to hype/peer pressure. Membranes get a really bad rap, but if that's your groove then power to you.
Hah! I know a guy who has a literal stockpile of the black wired Microsoft ergonomic keyboards. I only found out because I too love this keyboard and we both think the obsessing over MKs is silly
Same I stocked up on Microsoft curve 2000 because these have great response, are quite firm and still have a long travel.
When they went out of production I stockpiles four and I'm on my last pair (home and office)
I had a mechanical keyboard before these were fashionable, but are honestly too loud to use in a shared environment without feeling like amasshole.
Oh and there's also the fact that cherry stuff have ludicrous prices for what what they are and what marginal improvement they offer. Heck, most of them are still in the straight slab form factor, it's clear they mostly appeal to nostalgia and not actual ergonomics.
Some of us are too young (not that young…) to have stocked up on older Microsoft/Logitech ergonomic keyboards. I didn't realize mine would eventually wear out; by the time it did they were no longer available.
The options I found were
- something with laptop-style keys, which I find very uncomfortable to type on (I borrowed an MS Sculpt for a day)
- a split, membrane keyboard, which (from reviews) often seemed lacking in build quality
- a split, mechanical keyboard, either manufactured or as a DIY kit, and either a standard layout or something "weird".
I chose the third option. It was easy enough to ignore everything covered in LEDs or with loud switches. I chose to assemble a kit, as I hadn't done any electronics for years.
A month later I saw a Kinesis Advantage II visiting an office. That looked like a very good option too. I would probably have chosen that, if I'd seen it myself before deciding.
(I also checked with my colleagues, and no-one is bothered by the sound -- it's within the range of all the other "normal" keyboards in the room.)
> it's clear they mostly appeal to nostalgia and not actual ergonomics
There's no objective criteria what's ergonomic, different people have different opinions.
Once upon a time, I found a new job where people were using some MS ergonomic keyboards. I tried to adopt for a month or so, then I asked for another keyboard, with traditional form factor.
Nonsense, the amount of wirst bending to move sideways across a straight keyboard is a known finite quantity, not some exoteric 'nobody knows really' thing. Just because you don't feel it, doesn't mean the strain isn't there
I do agree however that some of the ms ergonomic keyboard went far too overboard with the concept to the point of being unusable. (I.e. those with the keyboard split in the middle instead of gently curving all the way across)
But the good one are are way better than the straight slab.
> the amount of wirst bending to move sideways across a straight keyboard is a known finite quantity
That amount is not a universal constant. I have large hands with long fingers, and I’ve played piano when I was a teenager. I don’t bend wrists to type stuff, at least when using furniture which suits me, and a full-sized desktop keyboard.
Those were my keyboard of choice too! Bought a few when the industry seemed to think the home/delete/insert/page-up/down/end island needed a reshuffling.
Second the Cloud 9, had been seaching for something like it for a (very) long time. I was a MS 4k user for decade +. There are some issue with it, but so far I'm still on board. The massive space I can spread left/right completely changes my shoulder posture, which is good for me, question will be wether changes impact my fingers (more pressure required I think?!). I find the key feel a little variable, enter key stabilizer bar in particular I'll have to grease if I was actually into that (am not), and some keys feel very slightly softer than others, but not distractingly so.
It's also super macro-able with Karabiner, far more than 4k on Mac, if you're into that.
As someone who loves mechanical keyboards - there are many good membrane keyboards out there, if I had to use a membrane that would be Lenovo Preferred. They are a joy to type on.
I like both. I love the feel of my (former) 2015 MacBook Air membrane keyboard, and I love the feel of my Cherry MX Browns. Both of them are unique in their own ways and suitable for some things.
I bought an MX 5000 (aka Ergo Plus) back when I had no idea who Cherry was or what the phrase "mechanical keyboard" meant. I just wanted an adjustable split keyboard that wasn't too exotic. Decades later, it's still serving me well.
Over the years, I've learned about the vintage[1] brown switches inside and why I find them so comfortable, what n-key rollover is and how important it has been to my gaming sessions, and why this thing continues to work after all this time. What a great purchase it turned out to be. Too bad this model was discontinued long ago.
I see a lot of all-or-nothing type comments here. Remember folks, there is a middle ground between a $300+ Ergodox and the $15 Amazon basics special. I use a Pok3r I got on eBay used for $80, they run about $120 new. It's certainly worth the $65-$105 over the cheapie given I use it during working hours every day.
It's interesting how some terms take on a life of their own - as someone not very familiar with the intricacies of keyboards (and someone who has happily used the same membrane keyboard for ten years), I'm a bit puzzled that the term "mechanical" only applies to keyboards with individual switches. For me, any keyboard with moving keys is "mechanical", so only an on-screen keyboard may qualify as "non-mechanical".
BTW, do the good old "buckling spring" keyboards (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckling_spring) qualify as "mechanical" by this categorization? I still have one of those (from an old IBM PS/1000, from the age before Windows keys) lying around somewhere...
In this context they aren't referring to the keyboard as "mechanical". They are indeed all mechanical. Mechanical Keyboard is just short for "Mechanical Switch Keyboard". I can see how it would be easily confusing for someone not into the hobby.
Buckling spring keyboards do indeed count as mechanical switch keyboards. I haven't used one since I was a kid but they were very cool.
That would be an IBM Model M, they are still quite popular in the community and Unicomp still makes them.
You should look up the model number.
Here's a good video on them: https://youtu.be/r5H58uudo1Y
As many other comments have mentioned here, the mechanical community keyboard is mostly focused on aesthetics (visual, audio, and tactile) over functionality.
Regardless, I've been able to build far more functional keyboards because of the community. I'm not aware of a single commercial device that has all of: ortholinearity, concavity, tenting, split halves, and thumb clusters - let alone the ridiculous features of qmk[1], all of which provide ergonomic value (at least in theory) - and I was only able to construct this keyboard because of the efforts of the mechanical keyboard folks. I'm not complaining (:
Once upon a Time I worked at a job where one of the employees was using a very old yellowing keyboard. I asked him why and he said that's what they gave him.
I almost felt the dejection in his voice, as in without a good keyboard he would never be a truly great employee. But at the same time he was at the company for a decade and never really got a raise.
For me, assuming the company doesn't have a policy against it I'll go out and buy a $200 keyboard just to get into the zone. I feel like I'm much more productive after investing that much. But this goes into my philosophy on jobs in general, your boss is never trying to improve your skill set. He or she only wants you to know just enough to do your job, in fact they'd probably prefer you remain too stupid to leave.
I design mechanical keyboards! It's an expensive process. Prototypes typically cost $400-1000, and you absolutely must do an aluminium/brass/steel cnc prototype before you do a sale. 3D printed protos can help with fitiment though.
Experimenting with materials, finish and functionality (mount system etc.) is a very exciting processs.
Learning to design the last couple of years has been a fascinating experience. I now do semi-regular sales of ultra-high end keyboards that people seem to really enjoy.
The one weird aspect, is you typically see keyboards go for 4-5x the price of sale on the aftermarket.
It's not uncommon to see keyboards for sale for $3000-7000 nowadays. I think there is a bit of a "hypebeast" culture around it all.
Fascinating! So you design the whole shebang, including keycaps?
Maybe you're the person to ask: I've been thinking about switching back to a mechanical keyboard, but I am looking for a specific keycap form I haven't been able to find so far.
If I cannot find these off the shelf somewhere - how realistic and achievable is it to have these custom-made for me specifically?
By the way, what I am looking for is a square base with a recessed "mesa" - either rounded like the old Nixdorf/Siemens/Fujitsu KBPC S [1], or completely round like this vintage Nixdorf [2] or the Teenage Engineering OP-1 [3].
So if you or anyone else reading this has a pointer, I'd be grateful.
I know exactly what you mean when you describe that shape. I love that shape too! There are other sculpted profiles that sort of fit the bill in a way too, like this profile https://rama.works/kate-preview
I'd be happy to talk more about keyboards!
It's unrealistic to have a custom keycap set made for you outside of having it 3D printed (which is very doable), but if you work with a designer, you could potentially run it as a group buy if you're willing to put the time/effort in.
On YouTube there is a good video I can recommend by someone called Quantrik. Search "Quantrik 65% Tutorial" and you should find it.
As for north/south facing stabilisers, I've heard people say all south facing sounds better. Sometimes spacebar is north facing, which allows for overall a smaller PCB profile as the stab holes jot out a bit. Feel free to DM me on Discord (Lewis Flude#0001) if you want to chat more!
> Mechanical keyboards are ideal for programmers and fast typists
Don't fall for this hype. I've used mechanical keyboards for over 20 years and switched to non-mechanical 6 years ago. My typing has been never fast. You don't have to push/raise your fingers all the way down/up when you hit the key or when you release the the key respectively. That adds to the latency as well. The flatter the keyboard the faster it is - of course coupled with the actual mechanics of the keyboard. But mechanical keyboard? Not anymore for me!
I understand why people love mechanical keyboards, and my main keyboard is amazing mechanical Keychron K1, but I would rather prefer high quality membrane keyboards similar to those found in laptops, thin, light, silent. And I wish there was a way to produce membrane keyboards at home with arbitrary layouts.
For example I prefer pretty rare "classical" IBM M1 but without numeric keys layout. But it seems impossible to print films and arrange keycaps in DIY way at home.
Not really into the switches themselves, but have been looking into 40% ortholinears and realized there are comparatively few Bluetooth mechanicals out there, which I find strange.
Recent return to office I understood for the first time why people say membrane ones feel squishy. After covid exclusively on a mechanical it does indeed feel that way
Just ordered a FalbaTech the other week. I am super excited. Have been using the MacBook pro keyboard for the past year and didn't have a proper desk setup until I moved to a bigger place just a few weeks ago. I had to bust out a Kinesis 2 that's been in a closet, and i gotta say, going back to a split setup wasn't as hard as I thought it would be. You learn it once and it can stick pretty well. Now for all the Emacs bindings :D
If you like Topre keyboards, the Leopold FC660C is fantastic. Really quality build and super comfortable to type on. A lot better than HHKB, in my humble opinion :)
I bought one about 3 years ago, and I have mixed feelings about it. My FC660C was quite wobbly and a bit scratchy, and seems to takes quite some force to press (leading to hand fatigue). For now I use it as a secondary keyboard, my primary is a Realforce R2 (45g, silent) which I like much, much better (although at a higher cost and larger form factor).
I'm now thinking about lubing the FC660C though, I've heard some people who had incredible results with it. (The typing sounds of lubed Topre keys you can listen on Youtube are just so heaven-like!)
I am using a Microsoft Natural Ergonomic keyboard for at least 6 years. It is a membrane, but I don't feel a big difference with mechs. Moreover, with its negative tilt it makes wrists position and bend much more comfortable.
It weared off a bit now, and I found out it is out of production, so I bought several units from outdated discounted stock. I hope those will last until Elon Musk figured out direct brain interface.
Excellent timing. I just got a desktop for the first time, and the keyboard it came with is aweful. I’ve been digging into the world of keyboards and have come up against the one big issue:
There seems to be no good keyboard on the market that does not have rainbow flashing LEDs under every key.
Can anybody recommend a good keyboard with adults as a target market?
In nearly all cases you can just turn the LEDs off. I have 3 keyboards and they all have LEDs in one form or another, but you wouldn't know it.
They always use the most ridiculous rainbow pattern in the product photos to emphasize that the LEDs are there, it's pretty funny. I don't know a single person who actually uses a rainbow setting.
That said I can give a more targeted recommendation based on what size of keyboard you like to use.
That brand seems to replace the LEDs by painting the rainbow colors directly on to the keys. I looked through their lineup and couldn’t find any monochrome ones.
I don’t get it. Am I the only one who doesn’t want colors on my keyboard?
Just a regular keyboard from the 90s. Not thin. Not light. Number pad and all. No ‘fn’ key under your pinky, and ideally no windows key either. I guess the “brown” keys from the article sound like what I would expect one of those old keyboards to feel like.
I suppose it can have a caps lock indicator. But I can’t think of any reason I will ever need my entire keyboard to glow blue.
I don't want anything to do with flashy RGB keyboards either. I did get one that has a simple white dimmable LED backlight, much like laptops with backlit keyboards. I use it occasionally in the winter time when it's dark and I just want a slight visual indicator of where the keys are. But most of the time I use a couple with no lights at all.
Maybe an iKBC CD108. They are pretty easy to get a hold off. No real bells or whistles. It does have a windows key (I'm not sure I've ever seen a full size keyboard without a windows key to be honesty). Your choice of Cherry switches including browns.
> Common membrane keyboards only offer a life span of 5 million keystrokes while a mechanical keyboard can reach 50 million.
Maybe it’s just me, but while I have never had a problem with a rubber dome board, I have had to clean/adjust/replace cherry switches on every board I’ve put a decent amount of use into.
It's in the stat itself, common (aka lowest quality mass produced stuff) against expensive premium products. Of course good membrane keyboard will last for a good while more than 'common' stuff, while still costing half or less of the mechanical keyboards.
Is there a way way I can exactly replicate a Microsoft Sculpt, but with the apparent reliability or key action of cherry browns or clears? Because right now my mech keyboard is rotting in a cable bin while my hands, shoulders, and wrists are always so happy with the Sculpt.
The high-end of ergonomic mechanical keyboards are things like the Maltron or the Kinesis. Recently, there are projects which make use of 3D printing like the Dactyl Manuform.
Somewhat cheaper than these approaches is to go for a split keyboard, and 'tent' each of these halves. Ergodox is probably the most popular of keyboards like this; but there are smaller/cheaper keyboards like the Corne keyboard.
I've recently built a Dactyl Manuform [0], which is still a bit of work in progress (cf. the rubber bands :D ), but it's the most relaxed typing I've had so far. I used Gateron browns for this one, and they're really nice. I get a very relaxed typing position, and my fingers need to move very little. On the downside, there's a bit of a learning curve (ortholinear + layers)...
I have a gallery of ergonomic mechanical keyboards. I'm not aware of anything exactly like the Sculpt; once people are 3d printing a case they tend to make other changes.
The final picture is to a site with more traditional ergonomic keyboards, I haven't added these individually yet.
Not sure if there's a Sculpt clone out there, but I've been using a Natural Keyboard Elite for >20 years, and I'm pretty happy with the Kinesis Freestyle Pro I just picked up (brown switches because I don't want to make tons of noise in a coworking space). Key placement is close enough that there isn't much of a learning curve.
Anybody have recommendations for travel somewhere between apple keyboard (the good ones) and mechanical (specifically MX brown that I use now)? I don't care about the technology so much as the travel (and the noise).
Dear lazyweb: are there mechanical keyboards with good pointing sticks (TrackPoint)? I know about Unicomp but those sticks look a little flimsy (or, if someone who has one can say they're not flimsy that works too).
Just wanted to recommend Keeb.io (not affiliated in any kind, just a happy customer). Probably the best place to get kits for ergonomic and somewhat exotic keyboards.
I am using Quefrency and Sinc and couldn’t be happier
I tried a mech but then I went back to the old full sized apple keyboard released in 2007 (A1243) for programming, I like the scissor switches. It would be perfect for me if the numpad was chopped off.
Yeah, I remember using one of those at school when I was young, and it was one of the best keyboards I've used. It's a shame that recent Apple keyboards feel like shit (incredibly shallow switches, almost feels like typing on glass, my fingers physically hurt after using it for a long time)
Touch type was really life changing for me. Also switching from French Azerty to Qwerty. It's not about WPM but about staying in the flow, I feel directly interfaced with the machine. It's a pity to watch colleagues still stoping, looking at their hands and doing weird combinations to type very common characters like (), {} or [] hundred of times a day.
Building/Running a heavy cuda accelerated app that taxes cpu/gpu very much over long periods of time it helps keeping temperature in check and the clocks stable. It is not strictly required but makes the while system very quiet and stable. If you are e.g training deep learning networks it can be almost mandatory if you stack more than 2 high-end GPUs into your case.
If you rent a server (real or virtual), whose software load you have control over, that's not SaaSS. In SaaSS, someone else decides what software runs on the server and therefore controls the computing it does for you. In the case where you install the software on the server, you control what computing it does for you. Thus, the rented server is virtually your computer. For this issue, it counts as yours
My keyboard is one of Corsair Cherry MX Silent ones. I love it. I can program all day on it, and it's not loud at all. I don't know how people prefer loud keyboards
> membrane keyboards generally have 2KRO,3KRO, or 6KRO while mechanical keyboards support N-key rollover (no matter how many keys you are holding down simultaneously, all of them will be registered correctly).
2KRO means 2-key rollover. If you push 3 keys simultaneously, one will not be taken into account.
It is in fact a little more complicated than that (2KRO guarantees that any combination of 2 keys will register both, but some 3 or more key combinations will also work).
the switches and general feel of this keyboard is the best of any mechanical ive used (i have about 8 high-end mechanicsl ive gone through). its also much lower to the desk so i dont get wrist aches or need a wrist rest.
It's unfeasible for most people though because of the incredible noise it generates (Yeah, I get it, the sound's awesome and it's a feature, but you're not going to use it at work or at home with other people)
I sort of agree, but not as much as I agree with:
If you’re an emacs user, HHKB is the keyboard for you. I didn’t seem to take advantage of the switched CTRL placement when using vim at all, which seems like the largest difference between the HHKB and other boards.
If you're a user, a keyboard with programmable firmware is for you. Then your keys are placed where ever you program them to be, which can be changed on the fly too.
Absolute load of wank, designed to suck dollars out of nerds. The Apple keypads were nice though - the IIgs was the penultimate, soft keys, good layout. $200+ keypads - nonsense. You're trying to hard to be a nerd; this is landfill in the making.
More so than a membrane keyboard after 10 years? I would say the opposite, mechanical keyboards are easier to fix, and have resale value. I just bought a second-hand Ergodox as my first mechanical keyboard, it cost a bit more than my previous membrane one, but looks sturdier, and easier to fix with removable switches and keycaps.
> Absolute load of w**, designed to suck dollars out of nerds.
As a nerd, a scientist and an Engineer, I appreciate having options. Not a single device will fit everyone, and I would likely disagree with you on what is the best keyboard. And I spend a lot of time typing, so I find it important enough.
As someone quite new to all of this, I appreciate comprehensive guides being written on the topic.
For the build quality of mechanical keyboards it really depends on what you buy. I've experienced cheap mechanical keyboards (around 50$ ~ 100$) break within about two years, these really aren't more reliable than membrane ones.
Ah, of course, it depends on what you buy. But in most cases, you can desolder a switch and order a replacement one.
I've had to repair a €70 Cyborg v7 keyboard. The PCB is printed on a flexible substrate, so I went with a conductive ink instead of my soldering iron. Now, a few years later, it seems to be defective again, but it's transient, so hard to diagnose. If the membrane gets torn, you have to replace it entirely, and they are not really standardized, so you'd have to get a specific one.
Moreover, keycaps do not seem to be standardized either on most membrane keyboards, so you have the same issue.
I guess that's an area where having low volumes is a good thing: you can't do anything too specific, it wouldn't be worth it. So the individual parts are themselves really standardized.
I enjoyed the hobby, not amymore
Since around 2016, the money grab situation became a joke, it all started with Drop (former massdrop) and it all went downhill.. i get that the community was really small and we were forced to use forums to organize drops and so on.. but now the community is by the milliions and stuff are even more expensive than before.. Fake "limited supply", copies of copies of switches that at the end offer no difference, same old keycaps vendors that have months if not years of intentionally delayed orders to justify their insane pricing, US/EU resellers of china pieces for 1000% margins, hidding inventory, snob creators, corruption in raffles, people being hyped by snob 'keyboard celebrities', censure in discords servers when you bring this up and i could go for hours with this list
It just sad...