I find it a little problematic when these ancient practices are separated from their broader context. There are further, unknown implications by doing so. It is similar to what was done with what we call "Yoga" here in the west. I am not saying that these practices cannot evolve, they must. But they are certainly part of a tradition that has been coherently applied and studied for centuries.

In my opinion the result of this type of approach is a diluted, incomplete practice, focused mainly on symptom relief, which tends to forget the heart of the matter.

There is nothing wrong with taking these practices as inspiration to help people, and I think your approach is a good way to bring them to know more about these practices.

But perhaps you should bring a little more of the philosophical/theological side to this modern take on meditation, something like what Stephen Batchelor is doing with his Secular Buddhism.

What we call Yoga in the west is mostly appropriation. The rest is misunderstanding because the concept does not fit in thinking western minds.

The best we get is what tae bo is to professional boxing.

Source: conversations and experiences with someone who had the fortune to study both in New Delhi yoga university and with a Yoga lineage in the Himalayas.

The official university still didn’t touch, or know, of essential elements of the practices. Whether intentionally hidden or forgotten, they are completely unheard of in the West.

In the west we have Yoga laptops for heavens sake.

What practices specifically in yoga do you speak of? I honestly appreciate that people in the west have secularized both yoga and meditation, as I personally find no value in the spiritual aspects and only find value in the exercise in the case of yoga and helping psychologically in the case of meditation. I'm curious to hear your perspective though, it seems to be different from mine.

Yoga is a spiritual practice, the fundamental goal is realizing your true (non-physical) self.

The physical exercises started out as conditioning to be able to sit longer in meditation, which is how you get there.

What if the “physical” exercises included aspects that qualitatively changed the state of one’s mind in ways that cannot be contained by thinking and thus cannot be expressed by language?

Sure, and that goes for all internal experiences.

In the ashram where I stayed we weren't even allowed to talk about the practice.

Yoga in the west is an effective stretching technique, with inspiring names and imaginary. So, very good indeed, but nothing to do with the source.

It’s awful for stretching, it doesn’t isolate muscles very well and strains joints. If it was good for stretching, you’d see NFL and MLB players doing it on the field before their games. It’s a ridiculous, roundabout way to do something that science has figured out can be done much quicker and easier, with less risk to the body.

It’s just a vain feel good activity. Yoga practitioners talk all about their “practice” and improving themselves through their “practice”. You’ll hear yoga studios say stuff like “don’t go to church, just do yoga!”. There’s a bunch of pride wrapped up in getting the poses right, but this doesn’t benefit your body, it just lets you one-up on other people because your pose is “more correct”.

There’s not strong evidence-based support for stretching.

NFL and MLB players do tons of stuff like cupping or wearing magnets that are questionable. Doing yoga because it makes you feel accomplished seems about as harmless as channeling your ego into any sport or physical pursuit.

The word Yoga comes from the root "yog" in Sanskrit. It literally means "sum", "union". Yoga is to be in union with nature. It happens when one is living harmoniously.

Sukshma

Yoga laptops are actually made by a Chinese company, which most people consider to be in the ‘east’. How does that fit into your idea of western appropriation?

Quite beautifully actually. I’m going to use this laptop on some Swedish furniture, wearing my indigenous moccasins, while watching a western anime, eating California roll sushi and drinking an americano from a Starbucks.

Thank you for your input! Our feeling is that we give deep reverence to the traditional practices and the thousands of years of wisdom with which they come, and we are attempting to help other people who haven't connected with those forms develop a mindfulness practice that does connect for them. We believe if more people in the world are practicing mindfulness the world will be a kinder, more compassionate place.

Agree. There’s a sort of woo popularity thing with a large tranche of mindfulness which is a bit too goal oriented and westernised for my tastes. I mean, each to their own but for me it’s a bit like abridged classic novels or pseudo classical renderings of Beethoven: it may have the essence of the real thing but in simplifying and “making easy”, it’s also loses much of the depth and richness. Proust and Beethoven aren’t meant into be “easy” or “accessible”, but if you make the effort, your life is richer because of that. Feels the same to me with meditative practice. I’m all for more people doing it but it all too easily feels transient, a passing fad, something that will only be popular with people while it’s fashionable. I’ve found the deeper parts of my practice by persevering through the hard times, by beginning to understand how grasping the human (particularly western) mind is, and by just sitting.

Thank you so much for your feedback! We like to stay away from those aspects as it can be off putting for people who don't subscribe to a certain philosophy or theology. We, instead try to make more approachable for everyone where you don't need to believe in anything other than spreading kindness to yourself and others. We certainly pay homage to where the traditions come from when we talk about the practice, for example at the start of class, or in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUJhfjxvNDE&feature=youtu.be or in this blog post https://chorusmeditation.com/blog/founder-friday-mk-on-our-p...

In doing this you are completely divorcing a people's fundamental belief system and heritage from them so that "people who don't subscribe to" the existence of that people's heritage, culture and belief system don't feel offended.

This is complete cultural appropriation and you should stop perpetuating it while making money off of it.

If we as a species didn't "culturally appropriate", the world would be hundreds of years behind in terms of progress. Invention itself is built on the idea of taking pre-existing concepts, combining and adapting them in new contexts. The idea that you can't borrow some existing body of knowledge because it's inherently sacrosanct and cannot be divided is just patently absurd.

Cultural appropriation refers to the use of objects or elements of a non-dominant culture in a way that doesn't respect their original meaning, give credit to their source, or reinforces stereotypes or contributes to oppression. - Google

The problem here is not invention. The problem here is that aliabramovitz and company "like to stay away from those [theological] aspects as it can be off putting for people who don't subscribe to a certain philosophy or theology", in a subject matter where the original theology is a core part of it, and that too a theology that is not aliabramovitz's own theology in order to cater to people who dislike the theology of the original owners of the practice.

So no, white people stealing other peoples practices and bastardizing them !== Invention necessary for the world to progress.

It is simply stealing and removing the original in order to cater to Abrahamics and to make money.

> The problem here is not invention. The problem here is that aliabramovitz and company "like to stay away from those [theological] aspects as it can be off putting for people who don't subscribe to a certain philosophy or theology", in a subject matter where the original theology is a core part of it, and that too a theology that is not aliabramovitz's own theology in order to cater to people who dislike the theology of the original owners of the practice.

And as an Indian who used to practice Yoga as a child (too boring for me now) I'd say that this is completely fine. If the theological aspect was indeed crucial for deriving value from the whole experience, people would eventually lose interest because they wouldn't be gaining anything from the aliabramovitz's venture right?

Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?[1]

[1] Quote by Douglas Adams

And as a Hindu (the aforementioned theology in this discussion) I will point out that yoga is not a stand alone exercise or something that needs to entertain you in order for you to continue to practice it, but rather part of a whole discipline of preparing your body in order to sit down and meditate for long periods of time.

And this is the exact reason that these practices should not be divorced from their theological fundamentals in the way that White Abrahamics practice it.

And this is also why you as an Indian should not be happy to let the whole be stripped into parts and sold for money and commoditized down to an entertainment or sport that you are "bored" by.

>but rather part of a whole discipline of preparing your body in order to sit down and meditate for long periods of time.

The implication being that this is the sole purpose of Yoga and there is no benefit in viewing it as yet another point of exercise? A hypothetical:

I have no interest in meditating for long hours, but practicing yoga and the "it helps you calm down" kool-aid that marketers promote actually helps me. It's not the "real thing", and I have an inkling that without the spiritual aspect I am missing out on a lot. However, I continue to practice it since I derive some benefits from doing so, and have no inclination to pursue the matter deeper.

^ I honestly see nothing wrong with the above scenario. I would accept someone who "dabbles" in Yoga without caring for its spiritual aspects the same way I accept someone who lifts weights 5 days a week but completely ignores nutrition. Sub-optimal? Yes. Should it be condemned? No.

I appreciate that it's been secularized, we shouldn't stop people from practicing yoga or meditation just because they don't want to subscribe to a religious ideology. Sure it did come from religions but there's no need to keep it tied to that religion if it can help more people outside of that, in a scientific sense (ie increased flexibility, breathing etc).

Cultural appropriation of something that many members of a culture promote is good. Without it, the only cultural symbols that people can get an intro to are those from European cultures.

-----

That said, I encourage people to read the Bhagavad Gita. As someone who has long appreciated meditation from a secular perspective, I've recently started reading it and am finding it valuable.

Right, spreading kindness, and also you'll just happen to make quite a lot of money

There's an interesting tension in your proposition - mindfulness meditation is at least partially about growing your self-awareness (awareness of your internal processes), but social situations tend to make some people self-conscious (aware of their external presentation). Combine that with up-tempo music and I would've thought that kind of environment would make it difficult to attain present awareness. Have you run into this as a real (rather than theoretical, like in my head!) issue, and if so how do you avoid/address it?

Sounds like a great proposition though - anything that bring more people into the meditation fold sounds like a positive to me.

That is such a thoughtful question - thank you! What we have seen is that the upbeat music, because it comes with a very strong BEAT give the mind something EVEN more concrete to focus on (the beat, the breathing pattern, and the teachers voice all serve as the object of attention, like a mantra) - so it does in fact make it easier to cultivate presence for people who find traditional objects of focus (e.g. "following the feeling of the breath") hard to anchor attention on. Regarding the social aspect - what we have found is that going through the class allows you to connect first to yourself more deeply, and then being in that headspace after class opens you up to be more connected to the others in the class. For more extroverted people that can manifest as sharing with the group about their experience - but even for some self proclaimed introverted customers we have talked with, they say knowing that they are sharing the experience with others and just listening to what others say at the end makes them feel less alone in the world.

Thanks for your response! That's interesting - I suppose the beat can form an external point of focus, like trataka/fixed-point meditation, investing your focus into one thing so that the route to self-awareness is noticing when your attention gets pulled off of that subject and onto to something internal like a thought or emotion.

I wish you the best of luck!

Exactly! Would love your feedback on our product if you feel like checking it out!

I'm afraid I don't think my feedback on the experience itself would be very helpful as I'm quite outside your target audience - it's not something I'd personally go for, having gotten over the hurdle you're addressing quite a few years ago.

Ah that's wonderful! So glad to hear that. You don't need us then :)

So is this some sort of hyperventilation breathwork done in savasana to pop music? I guess as long as the breath retentions aren't super long they should be ok, as long as the practitioner doesn't have underlying health issues, but I've seen videos of people having mini seizures doing Wim Hof breathing. Just be careful with it, there's a reason why pranayama is introduced gently and progressively over a long period of time.

Also, I would maybe drop the references to meditation. It seems more like breathwork in the tradition of a Stanislav Grof, which is totally fine and valid, just maybe misleading for newcomers expecting meditation.

Super great comments. Our class is split between the breathwork and then also traditional Vipassana or Insight style meditation. One of the reasons we don't typically describe it as "breathwork" is for the reasons you highlight and have been raised in other comments regarding how the Gof breathwork is supppppper intense. Our method is MUCH more tame and approachable - fitting for a daily practice -- vs when I've done the Grof style I feel completely wiped (in a good way sometimes) but not something Id like to do more than once every few months. All to say - we try and stay away from calling it breathwork because people either 1) think its Grof and are freaked out or 2) think its chill yogic breathing like you do through the nostrils in a yoga class and that’s misleading too. We also have grappled with if we should call it meditation and have decided for the time being that yes - it helps people context set - and the way we use the breath (which is different than the full blown Grof version) together with the beat of music and teachers voice is similar to meditation in that you have an "object of focus" you train the mind to stay on. Would love to hear if you have any ideas for what else to call it - cuz we totally have gone back and forth on this topic.

Yeah, naming is tough! If you're guiding people from something that resembles pranayama to eventually dhyana then I guess calling it meditation would be fine. I'd just make it clear to your students that working with the breath is a preliminary practice, to help them to begin to recognize awareness. And in particular not to attach to the high that comes with exercises like this, chasing sensation. That could set them back when they need to learn about samatha, because vipassana eventually requires it (see, for example, mahamudra teachings).

That is SUCH great advice - and particularly the part about encouraging them not to chase the high. thank you so much for your input!!

As someone who doesn't meditate and would like to get a better idea of what you're offering the first thing I looked for is a video of what it would be like and couldn't find one.

Hey! You're so right and we are working on making a demo available on the website - but in the meantime, let me just share one we have in our system -- here ya go:

https://docsend.com/view/hxra3rnfevsytg4v

I'm not familiar with meditation; I hear it's all the rage but I don't understand the benefits. It is said to "reduce stress", but stress is mostly the result of external stimuli. It's a symptom, like fever. If you treat the symptom without addressing the cause, what good is it?

Meditation sounds like a post-religion religion, but at least there was the promise of silence. Now we have loud meditation?

To me this video is quite terrifying; it reminds me of some kind of megachurch experience, a place where a guy like Kenneth Copeland wouldn't look out of place (see the intensity firing up around 21:22 and then dropping off at 23:24).

> It is said to "reduce stress", but stress is mostly the result of external stimuli. It's a symptom, like fever. If you treat the symptom without addressing the cause, what good is it?

As a long time meditator I agree with you, this is a very insightful comment. Unfortunately many of the things sold as "meditation" in the west are totally divorced from their original intent and are repackaged as stress reduction or performance enhancing instead. I find that trend quite dangerous.

Meditation (dhyana) is multifaceted and has many different traditions, but the major forms all tend to be about mind training in order to help the practitioner have some sort of realization about the nature of self. What that self is is where traditions diverge.

So yes you'd be correct in saying that stress is a symptom and focusing solely on these sorts of things is treating a symptom. You can certainly become addicted to these stress-reducing activities and end up not fundamentally altering the root cause. You see it in these western health spaces a lot, the people that come in and take intense daily yoga classes and keep crashing into depression once the endorphin highs go away since they're not focusing on treating the fundamental issues.

The path of meditation is hugely beneficial though and is not just about symptom treating in traditional lineages.

> stress is mostly the result of external stimuli.

This is a common misconception when the concept of biological stress is applied to humans. It stems from the correct observation that an increase in external stressors usually increases stress.

If you are interested in the science, two helpful models to conceptualise stress are Lazarus' stress model [1] and the jobs-demands-resources model [2].

Stress is the result of a lack of resources to deal with demands (stressors), not stressors themselves! As an example, most of us will never be air traffic controllers, simply because we would not be able to deal with the demands.

This is not to say the most effective way to treat stress isn't to remove the stressor. It's simply another avenue that can be pursued in parallel, and sometimes the only one available, in particular when stressors are internal (think negative thoughts, phobias, mental health).

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appraisal_theory

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Job_demands-resources_model

I love that you are digging even deeper on the problem! We say it is to “reduce stress”, but that is because that’s a simplified catchall that many people can relate to. You are totally right that stress a symptom. The real underlying cause is lack of awareness and peace within one's own self - the ability to separate from feelings of stress or overwhelm and not let them define you, but look at them more objectively and no longer have upsetting things ruin your day for example. The music has very strong BEATS, which give the mind something EVEN more concrete to focus on (the beat, the breathing pattern, and the teachers voice all serve as the object of attention, like a mantra) - so even though its loud, it does in fact make it easier to cultivate focus for people who find traditional objects of focus (e.g. "following the feeling of the breath") hard to anchor attention on. For anyone who finds silent meditation effective, we are so happy for them and they don't really need our new approach. What we are trying to do is create a new experience that resonates with people who are more drawn to upbeat styles so we can help more people unlock more peace and happiness.

You are terrifying and I am not being snarky. If you have done your market research on the perception of terms like “meditation” for exercise moms, you will choose the correct path.

The issue is the use of the word “meditation”. It's just an “umbrella term”. There are literally dozens of techniques that use the word “meditation” to describe them. The variation is astounding, and some have very little in common from a purely external point of view.

Absolutely true! We actually have waived a bit on if we call ourself meditation or not. Ultimately we are currently using it since it helps "context set" for people - but would love to hear any other idea if you have them!

> It's a symptom, like fever. If you treat the symptom without addressing the cause, what good is it?

Quite good when the symptom is harmful in itself, which both fevers that are sufficiently high and stress can very much be.

Absolutely - as I shared above - stress is totally a symptom! Check out my comment above about what the underling causes are. And youre so right that the added HEALTH benefits of reducing stress (like a fever) are huge as well. Here is a doc we have that summarizes how cortisol and stress impact the body: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1k6QyxX7_btMWUExto_KfESBm...

I like the approach, but find the choice of music and the constant speaking of the instructor distressing. Nothing for me in this format.

That's totally fair. The music style in this early stage is geared at people who enjoy this kind of popular music. In the future we will be expanding to have different styles of music as well. But certainly, we aren't trying to replace traditional meditation - so for anyone who is more aligned with more traditional meditation music and less verbal guidance - I honestly think there are some amazing resources already out there. Our hope is that we can provide a new style that resonates for people who the more traditional sounds and guidance levels don't click for. Very much appreciate your honest feedback!

Same. I was interested based on the promises and descriptions; then I watched the demo on docsend and immediately realized WOW is this not for me. I wanted to strangle the instructor within 30 seconds of hearing their voice.

that's what I thought at first too, but tried it anyway and it was great shrug

:) thank you for sharing!! certainly there isn't a one size fits all solution for really anything in our world - but we are so glad that Chorus is helpful for you!!

This looks interesting. I've tried mindfulness and meditation on and off for over a decade (mostly mindfulness) and struggle as much now to keep focus and not drift into continuing internal conversations as I did when I started.

Recently I have realised I have many Attention Deficit Disorder traits, and likely have ADD.

What's your experience of meditation and people with ADD? How does the practice change for them, and what works best?

I am SO glad you asked this. Meditation is amazing for people who struggle with attention. Essentially what you are doing in meditation is training the brain to be able to stay focused on one thing and that, just like with any other muscle, makes your brain better at this over time. The kind of meditation that is the most effective for helping with focus and things like ADD is called "Focused Attention." In this kind of meditation you focus on an object of focus and dont let you mind drift away. In Chorus we do TONS of focused attention techniques. Essentially what you want is a "concrete object of attention" - so something like a mantra (a phrase you repeat over and over) would be more concrete than say, just feeling your breath. We designed Chorus to give people super concrete objects to focus on so its easier to get into that meditative state.

Since starting to meditate myself I have become way better at reading speed, comprehension and overall focus has improved dramatically.

Here is a study that talks about it: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/108705470730850...

"...and struggle as much now to keep focus and not drift into continuing internal conversations as I did when I started."

If you notice that you're having an internal conversation then you have awareness and you should rejoice in that! I think too often people assume that meditation needs to be a completely focused empty mind at all times. Mingyur Rinpoche does a great job explaining it (and is a great teacher, would highly recommend his courses): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thcEuMDWxoI

> For example, the breathing pattern we use brings more oxygen into the body than normal inhales and exhales, which causes a tingling sensation, giving users a quick and satisfying feeling even in the first session.

This is a bit of a party trick that I used in my very brief career as a, well, guru, I think I called myself a life coach cuz that was the hip thing back then. I just went through the basics of deep breathing, fill your belly then your lungs, then use a pattern like box or triangle. Because I was directing them they held the pattern way longer than they would have naturally.

The result is you're effectively hyperventilating. Your body's just not used to that much oxygen. You can get used to it and it's pretty cool because all that oxygen literally energizes you. But after that first time I pulled back on the time spent doing super-deep breathing because it gets in the way of getting into alpha.

Love what you are building! I'm a huge fan of meditation but haven't found one I can keep with. I've tried all the apps but fall off after a couple of sessions or weeks. I'm going to sign up for the free trial. Do you recommend any classes, preferably shorter ones, that I should start with?

That is amazing to hear! That is exactly what we are hoping to help with. I would recommend starting with our teacher MK. She has a 30 minute class this coming Tuesday at 12pm PST. We have seen better onboarding experiences when starting with the live classes (and we rec at least 2 classes a week). I know 45 minutes sounds long, but it does go by quickly. The signature (longer) class also is really great for new community members because we give more of an explanation about what to expect at the beginning. If you are up for it, I would recommend starting with MK's 1pm PST class tomorrow (Friday)! Let me know how that sounds!

I love Chorus! I encountered it in the workplace and it blew my mind. The holotropic breathing thing makes me slightly hallucinate. Which is perfect for a work day.

I think it was a good fit with the move to remote world, having a community of people to mediate with - think they have grown a ton. I have friends who like that better. Personally I find myself a little lazy to show up - giving myself some space for that and look forward to in person classes again.

Also love these hackernews comments that seem negative/not understanding.. reminds me of the dropbox snark! Strong signal ladies, keep it up!

Hahah thank you so much! Honestly - we love the discourse too.

We are by no means trying to replace traditional meditation and Chorus certainly isnt for everyone. But for people it IS for we are frickin thrilled to help them unlock a mindfulness practice of their own!

So great to hear about your experience with us back when we were in person. We too hope that some day we can have both a digital and in-person presence because human connection is so important.

I can also relate to the challenge of prioritizing time to do it when you dont have somewhere physical to "GO". That ease of use is exactly what we are working on in our new app, so would love to see if we can help you with our new experience. But totally get if you are just an in-person person :) And we send you big Chorus hugs and thanks again for the support!!

I tried to sign up for the free trial but I don't want enter my CC details. Can I just do test a free-trial?

Absolutely! Here ya go: https://sutrapro.com/chorusmeditation/pricing/checkout/EbHZD...

I started doing Chorus meditation at Twilio prior to the pandemic and let me tell you it was WILD. My first session, I experienced a full body high and I was hooked. My mood after these sessions was fantastic. I was relaxed, confident, and my perspective felt so clear. I let go of all those meetings and tasks that were cluttering my day but didn't matter, and thought about the big picture.

In some sessions, I found myself weeping, processing grief I didn't realize I had been holding onto. In others, I had intense visual experiences like sinking to the bottom of the ocean or dissolving into the earth, which helped me to let go of things outside of my control. In another session, I connected with a deep desire to have another child, and decided it was time to do that. I would describe my chorus experiences as relaxing, fun, important, profound, and psychedelic.

I'm one of those people who found meditation frustrating and "not really doing anything", but had a completely different experience with Chorus. I was also really skeptical when a friend first described Chorus to me. I thought "Isn't listening to loud music the opposite of meditation!? That sounds cheesy." I was quickly won over. I encourage anyone with even a slight interest to try it. If you really lean into the experience and let go of your expectations, you might be very surprised at what can happen!

Wow oh my gosh! Michelle is that you? Thank you SO much for sharing your experience using Chorus. Being a former fellow Twillion myself it means so much to me to get to share it with the Twilio community.

It is :)

I have recruited several folks to Chorus this year and they are finding it quite helpful! My husband in particular has had some really intense (in a good way) experiences. A friend just reached out to me today to tell me how much he is enjoying it, and mentioned he noticed your launch on HN, so I wanted to come put in a good word :)

Interesting pattern, the people I've referred who have gotten the most out of chorus are/were startup CEOs. I wonder if this format is particularly good for people who are comfortable in intense environments? Or maybe those who have already learned the benefits of an introspection practice? I know it helps me show up better as a leader.

First of all - thank you for sharing Chorus with people in your life!

And that ISSS really interesting. We initially weren't as focused on startup CEOS as a core demographic, but since being in Y Combinator and seeing how much a bunch of our batch mates and finding it helpful we are totally rethinking how we can help other founders de-stress and navigate the challenging dynamics of starting a company more effectively. That's so great to hear that it helps with your leadership - I can totally see that. Being more empathetic and in touch is such a plus for leadership. I think your hypothesis about them being comfortable in intense environments AND knowing the importance of introspective practices is spot on!

Speaking as a former meditation teacher who attained High Equanimity [1] and saw through the non-self mark of existence [2]: what you're doing is a complete corruption of the heritage of meditation and is dangerous.

I'm speaking strictly from a secular point of view now, what you are teaching has nothing to do with meditation. Meditation is a practice with a clear line of progression. We have markers and waypoints for every stage of a meditator's journey to seeing the conditioned nature of reality.

If you want to continue with your product, I strongly urge you to call it something else because they will be confused that what they are practicing has anything to do with a thousands of years old series of techniques that are well-defined and established and predicated on four simple truths: the observance of suffering, its origin, its extinction and the path leading to its extinction.

I want to add for the purpose of disclosure: I am no longer a meditation teacher and have backslid greatly in my practice. My historical comments should not be taken as the examples of right ethics which would be expected of a highly attained practitioner. Intellectually, however, I feel I must condemn a product that risks harm by association to a beautiful, clear system which can be walked by anyone to achieve a calm, kind mind.

If people are curious about meditation, Headspace is a solid intro to these techniques started by a former monk with decades of experience.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vipassan%C4%81-%C3%B1%C4%81%...

[2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_marks_of_existence#:~:....

Could you clarify what your understanding of 'meditation'?

There are many different ways to meditate, from different traditions, with different objectives, secular and non-secular, with no/anecdotal/scientific evidence etc., e.g.

* Mindfulness meditation

* Loving kindness meditation

* Transcendental meditation

* Visualisation

* Chanting and praying

* Progressive muscle relaxation

* ...

It feels to me you are defending one particular school of thought (that has given you benefits) rather than meditation?

I am happy to clarify, though I believe I did when I specified that the word meditation is associated with the observance of suffering, its origin, its extinction and the path leading to its extinction. There were teachers who taught meditation before the Buddha but one also needs to understand that they were incomplete forms of mind-training which did not lead to the realization of the conditioned nature of reality. [1] The Buddha trained under the best teachers at the time and synthesized them into a whole practice, which when followed to their end led to total liberation, or nirvana/nibbana.

Many of the techniques you highlight descend from the same lineage: mindfulness (vipassana), lovingkindness (metta), and nondirective (of which transcendental owes itself to, Zen was its predecessor). It should be no surprise that the scientific evidence we have available to us has verified the efficacy of mindfulness, has verified the efficacy of lovingkindness. [2]

A meditator's journey may take them through a host of techniques. What's important is they are backed by ethics and deep understanding of what practitioners thousands of years before us were writing. That is a foundation to build on. The Buddha and the teachers who followed built on this foundation. The Chinese synthesists, Mahayana, Vajrayana, all of them established themselves in the foundation of what came before.

The foundation is a tripod. It is not "just" concentration or "just" ethics or "just" awareness, it is these three working together. [3] If you kick one leg out, the whole thing comes crashing down.

Let me also clarify what I mean by dangerous: meditation must be grounded in ethical action, in right understanding of the techniques because one can very easily come to assume a new set of delusions to replace their old, which leads to poor outcomes for themselves and others. People have been dragged from retreats screaming because of latent mental illness or they perceived something they were unprepared for. I myself have observed the total dissolution of self right before my eyes. I was not afraid, I was ready. I owe that fearlessness and confidence to my teachers who selflessly taught with no expectation of monetary gain.

Money itself corrupts the relationship between teacher and student. And we have decades of abuses from self-proclaimed gurus to back this.

Those who declare themselves authorities to remove ethics or wisdom from a system of mind-training because it smacks of religious devotion need to seriously examine their motivations for doing so.

The dhamma is free for anyone to pick up. I could recommend a host of teachers who will give days and years of their life to any prospective students who wish to take up the path, completely for free. And then when you turn your mind to gratitude, to lovingkindness, it will be easy to find a person for which to be gracious to. I owe my life to these people.

I'd like to conclude by really pushing the creators of this project to reconsider associating Chorus with meditation. Even the Wim Hof Method is just the Wim Hof Method.

Chorus on its own is a great name.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prat%C4%ABtyasamutp%C4%81da

[2] https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1m_tiYlDIyNpp6WGUgKd5...

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threefold_Training

Hey! Cool idea. I'm a total newbie to meditation - any tips for setting up your environment, especially for those of us cramped in a 1BR? ;)

Totally! Here's a couple tips:

>>> WHAT TO BRING >>>

Headphones or external speakers for the music

A cozy blanket!

A journal for some special reflections (only needed for the "Chorus" class - not for "Chorus 30" or "Sleep")

Other options > Eye mask or something to cover your eyes > A pillow under your knees to support your lower back

>>> HOW TO SET UP >>>

Find a quiet, soft place to LIE DOWN, where you won’t be disturbed (bed, couch, or yoga mat are great)

Set up where WiFi is strongest (it helps the audio not cut out during class)

Settle in a few minutes ahead of time so you can make sure your space is comfy and ready for class

>>> Here are a couple videos on what to expect for your first class too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyuh0cQjKSU&t=2s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUJhfjxvNDE&feature=youtu.be

so far everything (trial, videos, etc.) that you are selling is behind sharing something of a PII.

Why? I just want to try the shoes on before buying.

heres a trial that you dont need to put any cc info in: https://sutrapro.com/chorusmeditation/pricing/checkout/EbHZD...

and for the video on docsend, its not a paid wall - just put in your email and you can view: https://docsend.com/view/hxra3rnfevsytg4v

The trial still requires full name, email address, and for me to create a password.

The docsend video requires an email address, and rejects "a@example.com" as fake, so it wants a real email address, which implies to me you want to collect it for marketing / lead generation purposes.

Is there any reason you can't put a one or two minute "example" meditation video on YouTube?

Go ahead and just use my email [redacted] (its a security setting for our other documents)

its hard to convey the full vibe in 2 minutes - for a couple explanation videos we do have on youtube check out these:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyuh0cQjKSU&t=28s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUJhfjxvNDE&t=1s

The docsend just nests a public vimeo video. You could just post the link to vimeo. By having it through an email-required docsend, it seems like chorusmeditation is more interested in the pii.

Love this I first learned about breathwork from using a quantified self product called Gyrosco.pe. Their breathwork classes were the main reason I paid 80$/month for the product! Love to see a service providing just these classes for half the price

So great! How was your experience using gyrosco.pe? Would love to learn what you loved / didn't love! And yes, only $40 for ours!

Are there plans to do in-person classes when that becomes permitted?

There are! We believe in the power of community connection, so when it is safe we have plans to have "studios" in certain cities so that our community can come together even more!

I go to your page, cannot find a video of what it is immediately and then left. I think a lot of people like a video to show them what to expect with most startups these days!

Totally agree! We are just starting out so haven't been able to get a video on our website yet - but you read my mind cuz we are working on that as we speak! Here is a video describing "what it is": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyuh0cQjKSU

and for a demo of the class - here is this one as well: https://docsend.com/view/hxra3rnfevsytg4v

I'm unwilling to give you my email address for a demo.

just put in mine: [redacted] (its a security setting for our other documents) - sorry about that

I really want to get into breathing work and I'm hearing nothing but good about Chorus! I'll be trying it out for sure!

We can't wait to have you! If you have any questions or we can be helpful - just let us know!

$40/month?

You folks seem upbeat and sincere, so it pains me to tell you this, but having looked into your site I believe you're being irresponsible (that's the nicest way I can say it.)

Yours is not the first crew to do this. It's got a bit of a long history here in the SF Bay Area, going back at least to Leonard Orr in the 1970's, who believed he was on the trail of physical immortality.[1]

I was looking up Grof's "Holotropic" breathing, but WP now just redirects to "Breathwork" which actually lists the big names, including W. Reich and Orr: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breathwork

(It's written by skeptics with the usual obvious BS: E.g.

> Derived from various spiritual and pre-scientific traditions from around the world, it was pioneered in the West by Wilhelm Reich.

Reich didn't derive anything from any "spiritual and pre-scientific traditions". He was a scientific genius, one of Freud's contemporaries before he was driven out of Vienna for saying folks would be less uptight if they had healthier sex lives. His discoveries around what he called "Character Armor" have yet to be appreciated in mainstream psychology. He is one of the few Western researchers to independently discover "Chi" energy. He did some amazing research and then went insane, died in prison, and had his papers burned by the FDA. True story.)

Anyway, y'all are just "selling air": teaching folks to hyperventilate, to pop music, in their own homes, where they are on their own if any adverse effect occur, and then you use that as a convincer to get people to give you $40/mo.

I have to side with the skeptics here: you don't know what you're doing, the breathing techniques you appear to be teaching can have adverse side effects, you're misrepresenting it as some sort of intro meditation for beginners (the very people who need MORE individual time and attention from their Guru) which it is not, and you are putting yourselves in the position of Guru without taking on the responsibility or having the qualifications (by your own admission.)

This is all bad, and you should probably stop.

[1] He used to say, "Physical immortality: the only cause you can't die for!" and "I made my first million dollars selling air." For more about Orr and his "Rebirthing" breathwork see: => https://ibfbreathwork.org/7715/ "Tribute to Leonard Orr"

Thank you so much for the honest feedback. There has been some great research around the nervous system health benefits of the kind of breathing we do (the 3 part breath) in this book:https://www.mrjamesnestor.com/breath -- check out the section he calls "breathing plus" - essentially what it does is stimulate the vagus nerve which allows us to more actively control our autonomic nervous system.

We also use other breath techniques like boxed breathing and breathing with longer exhales than inhales which calms the nervous system: https://www.healthline.com/health/box-breathing#tips-for-beg... https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-athletes-way/201...

You are completely right that we must take incredibly seriously the space we are holding for our community when we engage in this practice. All of our teachers are trained by professionals, including trauma informed training from professionals at UCSF. We always make sure the customer is empowered to stay in a zone that feels comfortable to them. Additionally, when we breathe in this way we are doing similar things to the body as we do with cardio exercise, so it's generally totally safe and the physical sensations of the breath subside when you stop the pattern. Of course we are not doctors so we recommend, in the same way that any gym or physical exercise solution does, that you should consult your doctor before engaging in cardio vascular work.

First, thank you very much for taking my criticism so well. I did my best not to be harsh but I know I could have done better. I'm sorry.

Second, I'm gratified to learn that you're not teaching the more potent forms of breathwork. That makes me walk back a lot of what I said above. I apologize for jumping to that conclusion from a superficial reading of your page and what you said above.

> All of our teachers are trained by professionals, including trauma informed training from professionals at UCSF. We always make sure the customer is empowered to stay in a zone that feels comfortable to them. Additionally, when we breathe in this way we are doing similar things to the body as we do with cardio exercise, so it's generally totally safe and the physical sensations of the breath subside when you stop the pattern. Of course we are not doctors so we recommend, in the same way that any gym or physical exercise solution does, that you should consult your doctor before engaging in cardio vascular work.

Ah, well, shut my mouth. :) As you say, that doesn't sound any worse than e.g. those indoor climbing gyms, eh? (Why not put the grippy things on a big cylinder suspended over a ball pit and slowly rotate the cylinder? Much safer and more fun than climbing up and down, no?)

Still, there's a little bit of the "blind leading the blind" if you're teaching homemade techniques without a depth of experience (as in decades of experience.) There are good reasons why Guru and Lineage figure large in the structure of traditional methods of transmission, beyond just the economic obligations. (One invisible problem in the West is that we have almost no modern tradition to fit this sort of knowledge into our society. I.e. Venkataraman Iyer would have died homeless on the street somewhere if he had lived in the USA. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramana_Maharshi )

To put it in concrete terms, are you going to know what to do if one of your students has some sort of abreaction[1] with your methods, as mild as they may be? I've seen a lot of weird stuff go down out there in the wild, among the bush psychologists and street shamans, and while it mostly turns out okay, I've had friends become shattered shambling homeless madmen.

Good luck and God bless. :)

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abreaction

> a psychoanalytical term for reliving an experience to purge it of its emotional excesses—a type of catharsis. Sometimes it is a method of becoming conscious of repressed traumatic events.

Criticism has its place, and some of your concerns may be helpful, but "you don't know what you're doing" and "this is all bad" are simply rude judgments.

I don't see the point in accusing the team of "selling air". Would you accuse a trainer of "selling movement" or a coach of "selling words"??

Breath is a fundamental component of the human experience that affects our mood, health, and everyday experience. Learning how your breath affects your experience is valuable just like any other physical activity (yoga, running, meditation, exercise). There is also a spiritual component to introspective practices like meditation which can be quite valuable. For some people, it's definitely worth paying for these things.

If you're only comfortable with gurus doing this work, what would a guru need to be "qualified"?

As Gurdjieff said, "there are many delicate parts in there, which cannot be gotten from any repair shop".

To be qualified as a Guru you should know how not to break your students, and how to fix them if they break or come to you already broken, to the extent that that is possible.

To teach people how to ignite themselves without a fire extinguisher handy is not wise?

Come now, I love that you know about all this stuff and as someone who used to order Esalen catalogs as a teenager, I share your fascinations—but this is an extreme stretch. These guys aren't doing orgone therapy, rebirthings, or (heaven help us) immortality. Also, it's a category error to conflate Wilhelm Reich, Leonard Orr, and Stan Grof—three completely different figures. Totally agree about the fascination of Reich, though—he is unsummarizable.

> Come now, I love that you know about all this stuff and as someone who used to order Esalen catalogs as a teenager, I share your fascination with it—but this is an extreme stretch. These guys aren't doing orgone therapy, rebirthings, or (heaven help us) immortality.

Yeah, I think I overreacted. I've had friends who lost their minds doing weird things in irresponsible ways and I think I pattern-matched badly here.

> it's a category error to conflate Wilhelm Reich, Leonard Orr, and Stan Grof.

I agree! I hope it didn't sound like I was doing that. I think the Wikipedia article does that, and it's ...um, not as accurate as it should be, to say it nicely.

FWIW, it seems to me that Reich must have injured himself somehow when he tried using his "orgone" device on a radioactive sample. Before that he was a scientific genius, and then, almost from that moment, he seems to descend into madness, fighting with UFOs and the FDA.

I can't resist going further offtopic! Apologies to the thread.

> Before that he was a scientific genius, and then, almost from that moment, he seems to descend into madness

I'm not sure. With Reich, everyone picks the point at which they get off the train—almost no one is willing to ride all the way to the end with him. But people pick different points at which to bail.

For some it is when he broke with Freud around the libido theory (no one cares about that any more but it was a big deal at the time). For some it is when he went into radical politics. For some it is his advocacy for adolescent sexuality—there his views (though still radical) no longer seem nearly as extreme as they used to—but it is society that changed, not Reich. For a long time that was by far the biggest black mark against him in public.

For some, it is when he broke the taboo against touch in psychotherapy. That one's hard to appreciate now because in retrospect, it was a breakthrough, leading to all the somatic therapies that came later, including the trauma work that is currently fashionable.

For most people nowadays, the breaking point with Reich is when he claims to discover orgone energy—that's what splits him off from the current mainstream. In this view, Reich is a genius when he invents body-oriented psychotherapy and analyzes the psychology of fascism, but goes mad when he starts doing laboratory science and making grandiose claims in biology and physics.

Then there are some who stick with Reich through that, but when he starts manipulating weather with his cloudbuster (dramatized by Kate Bush! [1]), that's too much—that's when he becomes a nut. A few stick with him even past that, but when he starts going on about UFOs, they're out. There are even a few diehards who can handle Reich all the way through the UFOs but feel like he loses it when defending himself at trial. It's like a customer retention funnel!

My point is that "He was ok up to $X but went crazy at $Y" has always been the template of responses to Reich. How we fill in $X and $Y probably says more about us than it does about him. I hadn't heard the radiation theory before, though—that's an interesting one.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pllRW9wETzw - with Donald Sutherland playing Reich!

Wow, you do know your stuff Dan G. I tip my hat to you sir. I love that you're fascinated by this stuff too. :)

FWIW, I was 110% Reich for a long time (UFOs too, why not? He's obviously one of the intellectual titans of his age, I wasn't there, who am I to second guess him?) but then I read a particular biography (it's in storage and I don't recall the title or author, sorry, but it was sympathetic to Reich) and it seemed to me that he became irrational after what he called "the Oranur Experiment". I found a site that seems to have a description: https://stillnessinthestorm.com/2013/08/orgone-energy-neutra...

I have no idea what really happened, of course, but I suspect he injured himself somehow experimenting with radium and "orgone".

Even if you set aside the fight with the UFOs, his response to the FDA seems crazy (to me) even for someone who was literally persecuted for much of his professional career. The actions of the FDA don't seem quite so egregious in light of the personal fight Reich picked with ... crap I can't recall now, some bigwig in the FDA, or a federal Judge, someone like that who took it personally, and that's how he wound up serving two years in prison. They still shouldn't have burned his papers, that's messed up. And his end is deeply tragic. But was doing things like refusing a lawyer, representing himself, insisting that the authorities read his books, and that they had no authority over him. Ah, it makes me sad.

I sometimes wonder what an alternate history would be like where Reich and his work took root in Vienna and grew into ... who knows what?

I'm curious dang, if you don't mind me asking, where do you fall out of the funnel on Reich? And on "woo-woo" in general? What's you metaphysical story like? :) Where does the sidewalk end?

- - - -

That Kate Bush video! Wow, LOL, Yay! I'll see that and raise you Gurdjieff's Fourth Way embedded in the middle of "Meaning of Life" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2QJvc_SxFQ

The answer to your question is I don't know. I guess I'm agnostic. He's too hard to assess objectively, and the resources to do it aren't available. By the way, there is a recent documentary about Reich that I haven't watched yet: https://vimeo.com/ondemand/wr1897.

> I'll see that and raise you Gurdjieff's Fourth Way embedded in the middle of "Meaning of Life" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2QJvc_SxFQ

Wow! That's incredible, and would have gone over my head when I saw the movie as a kid.

I wonder which Python was into that stuff. Perhaps Cleese? Edit: looks like it: https://theweek.com/articles/677504/john-cleeses-6-favorite-..., https://www.nytimes.com/1988/12/25/magazine/cleese-up-close..... Maurice Nicoll is another character; an early UK psychiatrist and son of a prominent Victorian critic, who was Jung's British colleague. Jung was asking him to lead his work in England, but by then Nicoll fell into the Gurdjieff/Ouspensky orbit and ran off to Fontainebleau. The books Cleese is referencing ("Psychological Commentaries" [etc.]) are Nicoll's lectures to his Gurdjieff group that went on through WWII until he died in the 1950s. They're a strange mix of sharp psychological observation and impenetrable esoterica.

If you're interested in Gurdjieff's influence in Britain, I recommend the memoir of J.G. Bennett, who encountered both Gurdjieff and Ouspensky when he was running British intelligence in Constantinople just after WWI: https://www.amazon.com/Witness-Story-Search-Collected-Bennet.... As an old man in the early 70s he became the spiritual teacher of a lot of English hippies, eventually including, of all people, Robert Fripp. You can hear Bennett's voice at the beginning of Fripp's new-wave dance record (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPQWHEu_rqQ), which also went over my head when I was a kid and frankly creeped me out. But what a great record! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPQWHEu_rqQ#t=12m

> The answer to your question is I don't know. I guess I'm agnostic. He's too hard to assess objectively, and the resources to do it aren't available.

Eh? There are a handful of Reichian therapists around, cloudbusters are pretty cheap to make, I don't think they'll arrest you for building an orgone accumulator, etc.

I'm not seriously suggesting you go out and mess around with this stuff but I'm curious about your motivation. Did you just read about it and never try any of it?

I was looking to cure my depression so I tried things. Now my depression is cured but I feel like a visitor from the future. I went too far too fast, raced out ahead of consensus reality, and now I have a kind of reverse futureshock. I can feel a rant coming on so I'll cool it. I'm bored and lonely and everyone's problems seem so simple and easy to solve... Y U NO Golden Age already Humanity!?

Aaaaaaanyway...

> I wonder which Python was into that stuff. Perhaps Cleese?

Yeah. He used to have an old flash site and there was a video there of him doing a kind of talking-head fireside chat bit, and halfway through that he starts talking about Gurdjieff. Blew me away. After that, I guess I was primed to see it, that scene I mean. It's incredible to think that they wrote that and filmed it and stuck it in there as a killer joke: the Meaning of Life is in "The Meaning of Life".

It's interesting how they set it up: there's basically a post-hypnotic suggestion to get distracted and then sudden attack by the Crimson Assurance acts as an amnesia induction pattern.

I wonder if they told anyone? I mean there had to be a group of people in on the joke, yeah? I've never heard of anyone else noticing that scene and making the connection to Gurdjieff, but then I don't get out much. At all. (I'm kind of a recluse. In fact, this HN account is pretty much my only connection to the outside world. Great work btw dang. I can't tell you how grateful I am to you for all you do. I owe you. If you're ever in Southwestern SF and want to experience some Chi or other weird shit get in touch.)

I met John Cleese once and roundly failed to serve him popcorn. I was working at a movie theater in Santa Barbara and he came in with a date to see "In the Name of the Father". Slow night. Empty lobby. I looked up and there he was. He's tall. Over six feet. I managed a sentence or two before I just started stammering. One of the other kids had to step up and serve him while I leaned against the wall and just gaped like a fish. He was ver British, didn't notice, might have been waiting to catch a bus. I thought that was wonderful of him, and his date was really enjoying it. :) They left via the side door... heh

> If you're interested in Gurdjieff's influence in Britain

Nah, like I said, once my depression was cured I lost interest. Not proud of it but there it is.

Cheers dude, well met!

appreciate your comments! (not that we mind the above discourse) - but you are totally right that we are doing VERY different things from the intense breathwork (e.g. rebirthings, Gof, etc) you noted. A big reason we created Chorus was because those forms of breathwork were too intense for us, and certainly too intense to do more than, say every 3 months. So Chorus is a much more approachable and dialed down practice that you can do to unlock a daily mindfulness habit.

Don't charge money.

Put your expenses in a public spreadsheet, accept donations.

I tell you if you do that you will achieve 1000x positive effect and you'll become immeasurably wealthy for the rest of your life as well, natch.

Well, that's sorta what I'm more familiar with - the 'dana' model - there's plenty of sangha orgs that have operated online during the pandemic (e.g. https://sfdharmacollective.org ).

The teachers may also have other offerings that are more paid upfront that are more 1-on-1 or small groups.

"What we are trying to do is bridge the gap for people who find traditional techniques challenging so that they can avoid the discouraging feeling of “I’m doing this wrong” and empower them to develop their own mindfulness practice. Another thing we do to support our users in the early stages of practice is provide a community in which they can share their experiences and get encouragement to keep going."

Part of me has a visceral pushback, but I understand this may work for some people. I just hope, out of respect, there's a pointer to the traditional techniques for those realizing that this practice may not be the right fit for some. The worst thing you can do is dissuade people or disrespect neighboring teachers (see https://seattleyoganews.com/northwest-yoga-conference-incide... ).

Absolutely! While we are crafting an experience we hope resonates for people for whom the traditional teachings have not, we certainly pay homage to where the traditions come from when we talk about the practice, for example at the start of class, or in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUJhfjxvNDE&feature=youtu.be or in this blog post https://chorusmeditation.com/blog/founder-friday-mk-on-our-p...

I highly doubt that they will become "immeasurably wealthy" from donations, it is extremely rare to see that happen. If they offer a good service then they should charge for it, and use that money to continue the service.

That's actually an amazing idea hahah!!

Let me guess Kevin wants a royalty and Mark is pressuring you to make a snap decision so you go with Herkovic because he exercises.