> "If you’re applying for jobs you’re hobbling yourself. If you have years or decades of experience you should have a large network of colleagues to get leads and jobs from."
Sorry, but this is like saying "if you're 30+ years old you should have a large network of friends and family and not feel lonely". It does little to solve the problem of people who lack such networks to remind them that they do.
I agree with you, but at least the advice gives an idea of how some others approach finding work at that age.
It comes with the implication that it's worth aiming towards similar, if you think you could, because it's actually working for some people.
I.e. by being more aware of network-building, being a bit less afraid to mention your availability when getting to know people, having in the back of your mind that it's actually good for your future prospects if you're helpful and pleasant to people, being willing to play the slow "keep in touch" game, and the LinkedIn game, and maybe appreciate that it's not entirely social BS, it's actually kinda useful in the big scheme of things.
That doesn't solve the problem for people who are lonely and struggling, but it gives an idea of a useful direction to start building in, from knowing it's working for some people.
I will add a tiny bit of advice: It's really ok if you don't already have decades of networking and colleagues like some appear to. You're not at a permanent disadvantage.
If you have few friends and no colleagues, it will take a while but that while is measured in months and low years, and like anything, cultivating freelancing/consulting connections is a skill you can get much better at with practice. Get used to reaching out, like for example write to some of the "freelancer wanted" posts on HN, and write to people at companies who post something interesting, including C?Os and so on. That's kinda fun, because some of the people you end up talking with actually really enjoy human connections and are interesting people, and you are building their network too. To them, you are valuable, even if they don't know why yet. Some of them know this and are happy for the contact.
I agree with your point. However, I think it applies to youth more so than adults. I strongly think that a lot of adults who suffer these type of hardships are aware of them. And have tried to remedy them.
I know that for some: years and years of trying isn't enough to create neither type of social network.
I'm doing ok now, having started from near-zero network in my 40s, after a long lull and letting my social and professional circles fade away due to life circumstances.
That's why I say it can be done when older too, and have an idea what the timescale is.
(I also think the "other people appreciate your potential value in their network" point applies more to older people than younger. That is, if you're older, your perceived network value is a bit higher; I'm guessing the age is vaguely associated with seniority and future opportunity for the other person.)
However, I have the advantage that I did figure out people and developing and maintaining social links (if I want to and feel up to it), a number of years ago. I've led community groups occasionally too, which is not always pleasant but very educational.
I still remember not knowing how to, having no active friends at times, and being very lonely and isolated. So I empathise (a lot) with those who are stuck and unhappy with that.
For those people you're talking about who have tried for years and years, if they're really stuck, I wonder if there is some kind of coaching or training that would make a useful difference, assuming they want to change the situation. If there isn't, there ought to be.
I think you'd be surprised at how common this is. Not just for programmers -- it's the norm for executives, marketing people, sales people. Personal connections and professional networks are vastly more effective than spamming resumes out and applying for jobs. It's human nature -- we prefer to deal with people we know, and we trust referrals from people we know.
This is not common, much less the norm, for programmers. It might be the case in small startups, and it might be the case in other outliers, but not in typical companies. Even the most strong referrals are at best a foot in the door and a leg up over other candidates. Referrals still have to go through the same interview process, and potentially be rejected.
Your mileage may vary. I haven't interviewed for a job since 2005. The three f/t jobs I had before that I had to interview for, but I was the only candidate they considered (because of professional connection). The other interviews were required to comply with HR policies (apologies to the candidates who didn't really have a chance).
I don't think my experience is unique or even unusual. I have hired friends and former colleagues with only pro forma interviews because I already knew what they could do. I've been hired the same way. At almost every place I worked other people there got their jobs through a connection.
Maybe the difference is I know quite a few people who have hiring authority, possibly as a function of my age.
I stopped working f/t jobs in 2011, have freelanced full-time since then. I don't interview or submit proposals for freelance jobs either. Usually I'm the only consultant the company is talking to, the others waste time on discovery and proposals and "process" whereas I'm ready to get to work right now.
You are what is called an "outlier". Your experience is so far from typical as to be irrelevant to anyone looking for full-time employment work. You experience isn't unique but it is very much unusual.
Anecdotally I don’t think so, but I don’t have any numbers. I’ve had quite a few jobs in 40 years working as a programmer. I believe around half of the people I’ve worked with got their job through the side door rather than through a formal application process. Sometimes the side door was a connected recruiter, but more often it was through a past work relationship or friend-of-a-friend. I can’t remember ever getting a job myself by sending in applications, though I have gone through interviews.
I suppose a lot depends on where you want to work.
Regardless, my main point is not to overlook contacts and former colleagues. I think going through the front door with applications is the last resort, not the first or best approach. There’s a book called Who’s Hiring Who? that I found useful a long time ago.
This. With the exception of super early stage startups that could easily go belly up fast, or small mom&pop shops, networks and connections are most likely to only get you to an leetcode phone screen. From then on, you're just going to traverse the leetcode whiteboard interview gauntlet like any other candidate.
I have a friend/ex-colleague that I would describe as a "master networker". He has a huge network including some pretty senior executives at various NYC hedge funds, and even a billionaire or two. I kid you not in that he can literally make a few calls and get a "developer job" at a hedge fund.
The downside is that he has to be extremely unpicky and be willing to settle for very unsexy jobs like shuffling XML feed files using SSIS or working with Excel VBA or legacy ASP.NET Webforms code, etc. But all of them still pay very well, so...
At every company I've ever worked at, even if I recommend someone, they still have to go through the hiring process. No company would hire someone just because I said they were worthy. It's just lead generation.
It's not my job to solve the problems of people who don't have networks. I have 40 years professional experience in the software dev business, as I wrote, and during that time I've met and worked with a lot of people. Networks grow organically but you have to cultivate them (another person commented in this thread with the garden analogy).
If you feel lonely or struggle to connect with people, or maintain relationships, don't expect to get help for that in HN comment threads. Don't feel sorry for yourself, get help.
If you feel lonely or struggle to connect with people, or maintain relationships, don't expect to get help for that in HN comment threads. Don't feel sorry for yourself, get help.
While you are close to being 100% correct with this advice, don't you think you are being a bit harsh on the OP as it's obvious that's exactly what he has done by posting his job seeking issues here on HN?
I mean...if this is how you feel, why bother even replying to him? Obviously, it's too late for your advice to be of any help to him now in his current situation, right?
I'll come clean and add that I, too, am in a very similar boat as the OP...I'm a 55yo software developer with 35 years in the industry, and due to my lifelong passion with a side-career as a semi-professional musician and other introvert-type issues, I literally have a non-existent network of people who will help me find work.
In no way am I feeling "sorry for myself" with my job hunt...I'm just trying to keep from being homeless and hungry.
It's probable that the OP is facing the same things.
I don't think HN comment threads are a good place to get therapy. At best you get a variety of opinions and some personal anecdotes. I posted about my own struggle with shyness and introversion above. If I still suffered from shyness and introversion I would get therapy, I wouldn't come to HN and ask random people what to do.
In the spirit of trying to help, let me point out that your comment, and some others from people who apparently don't have networks of friends and colleagues, start the discussion with a negative tone. "That's fine for you but I don't have a network, I guess that means I've failed." Comments like that communicate giving up and blaming external forces, or things outside your control. We can all control whether we get along with people and cultivate relationships. Some people are better at that than others, but it's a skill anyone can learn if they want to. It's probably harder than learning a new programming language, but it has a couple of orders of magnitude more value in the long term. And it's never too late to start.
I'm not trying to be harsh on people or show off. I had the shyness/introversion problem when I was younger, and the lack of friends and professional network to go with it. The problem was my own behavior, not the world, not some cloud hanging over me I couldn't control. It took a person with insight who cared enough to try to help me to let me see I could change my behavior. Ironically that person was a new acquaintance I had just met a few days before. Just like changing any self-defeating or limiting behavior you start by acknowledging it and committing to change. Try CBT (cognitive-behavioral therapy), that might help if you can't push past it on your own. What doesn't work is telling people "I'm introverted" or "I don't have friends."
> I literally have a non-existent network of people who will help me find work.
A suggestion is to just build that network of past people on linkedin, today. There's no rule saying you can only connect with people you worked with recently.
I've been on linkedin a long time (2004) and for many many years I did the introvert approach of only connecting with those I worked very closely with and considered friends. So my network was tiny.
Somewhere along the line I realized this isn't my list of friends, it's just a network of people I've worked with who I'd be willing to forward their resume to HR if they asked. That set is a couple order of magnitude larger than my list of friends. So I started sending out invites to everyone I've worked with since the 90s who was adequately competent or better. The vast majority of people accept.
Sorry, but this is like saying "if you're 30+ years old you should have a large network of friends and family and not feel lonely". It does little to solve the problem of people who lack such networks to remind them that they do.