I use a slightly configured Kinesis Advantage 2 and colemak as my keyboard layout (I used to make the Kinesis do the colemak, but now its just qwerty and the OS handles colemak). I find typing on it extremely comfortable. I've also found these beneficial: https://www.mycarpaltunnel.com/
I like Ergodox, especially because of their super flexible configuration, but I dislike the flatness of the keyboard compared to the Kinesis and last time I looked, they limited the length of macros "so you don't store passwords in them".. ehh, that's a stupid reason for adding limitations. As an adult, I can make my own decisions on what I store in my macros, thanks (I use a password manager, so its not passwords)
The makers of the Ergodox EZ (it's open source so you can get Ergodoxes from various sources as well as build your own) also make the Moonlander, which is a step closer to the Kinesis in shape.
I looked into it as a potentially more mobile alternative to the Kinesis but decided to stick with the Kinesis.
I'm hoping if my current keyboard ever dies Kinesis will have a new QMK-based version that comes in two halves, or that the Dactyl Manuform becomes something that you can buy a solid transportable version of.
Dactyl manuform user here. That's definitely my only complaint. The dactyl is the absolute perfect keyboard, except for the fact that it's a nightmare to transport anywhere. If I have to take it anywhere I carry it in a paper shopping bag with nothing else in it. It's not a cheap keyboard either, so getting one for work and one for home is a hit to the wallet.
I recently grabbed a keyboardio atreus for travel and laptop use. Not nearly as ergonomic as the dactyl, but still a very nice keyboard in it's own right.
> the Moonlander, which is a step closer to the Kinesis in shape
Just took a look, doesn't really look much difference. I mean the 3d curvature of the keys, your hand is kinda in a semi circular channel. I just find it comfortable, especially to reach the furthest rows of keys from the home row. Its not a huge deal, just something I like about the Kinesis. I also use the Kinesis foot pedals -- does something similar exist for the Ergodox? I didn't see one at my quick look, but I also didn't look very hard.
You'd have to mod the case and do some wiring, but since the ErgoDox is just a Teensy running QMK you could in principle hack it. I think all you would have to do is find an unused pin on the uC and then wire that pin to the foot pedal and recompile the firmware.
But the only real advantage to the ErgoDox over the Kinesis in my opinion is that it runs QMK: the key-wells are more ergonomic and the thumb cluster is better positioned because of the slight vertical height difference. And if you get a Stapelberg converter[1] PCB made, it doesn't look that bad to add.
The Moonlander lets you angle the thumb cluster seprately, where the ergodox ez is a single flat plane.
For the bowl shape, you'd need to look at something like the Dactyl Manuform I mentioned.
Many split keyboards transfer keypresses from one side to the other via simple audio cables, I believe footpedals could be spliced in there too, but that's just speculation.
Most often the audio cable carries serial port signals (not proper RS232 afaict but logically a com port). Splicing in a pedal should be doable, as long as you don't press it simultaneously with a key on the "remote" part of the split keyboard.
Believe it or not, I was an Advantage II user but switched to Moonlander because I find it easier to type on. For some reason my pinkies always felt weak typing on the Kinesis.
Given the rapid development of the hobbyist landscape from 3D printing, I suspect it will only be a matter of time before Kinesis comes out with a split design.
Although the Kinesis is actually very easy to mod, and there are quite good resources on replacing the microcontroller with something that can run QMK. If you're not familiar, here's a link[1] to a PCB design that will route the ribbon cables to a Teensy.
Uh, Kinesis has several split designs already (Freestyle 1/2/Pro/Edge). Not shaped like the Advantage, but I’m pretty sure shaping is not popular enough to sustain the kind of volume they aim for.
To be honest, I just wish they had an ortho version of the FS Pro.
You're right, I had assumed it was obvious from context since we were talking about the Advantage and Dactyl-Manuform specifically.
The market may be there though, since the Advantage has basically been the companies main product for RSI mitigation for decades and not gamers wanting a split to get the mouse closer in.
You have to build it by hand, but check out the Dactyl or Dactyl Manuform. I think they're about the pinnacle of the erg keyboard world. 3d shape like a Kinesis but with more optimization for wrist angle and allows you to customize wrist rotation and split.
Seems like the limit is 32 characters. That probably covers 99% of passwords ever made.
Even if you use a password manager you can still benefit from storing your master password as a macro, that allows you to have a very long one (at least up to 32 characters) without suffering the negative effects of that (it being a pain in the ass to type all the time).
It doesn't seem unsafe to me, although at first glance it's reasonable to be suspicious. Macro memory is lost if the keyboard is unplugged for a short amount of time, like if somebody swiped it off your desk. Nobody will know you store your password in your keyboard unless you tell them. It may be difficult to even figure out what key combinations trigger the macro; you can make it very complicated with multiple layers. As far as I know, there is no way to pull the layout back off the Ergodox and view it in the configuration tool, so you couldn't just easily look up what the macro combo is. You use 2 factor on everything important anyway right?
If somebody had access to your keyboard to do this, it would be much easier to just plug a keylogger in between the keyboard and PC.
EDIT: it seems likely I misinterpreted what they meant.
I think the parent is talking about the limit in Oryx, their online configuration tool. In Oryx, they limit macros to 4 characters. It's not because storing passwords on the keyboard is unsafe, it's because storing passwords in Oryx is unsafe. They're stored in plaintext and publicly visible.
In response to the parent, you can configure longer macros using QMK directly.
Ahh, so the restriction is in the UI not the firmware. Ok, that makes sense. It wasn't clear to me when I looked at and tried to set a macro. I still think they should just have a big red warning instead of limiting it, though.
Just to take my own example, I’m unable to use the Kinesis Advantage because the bones in my right wrist are curved following an old injury. I’m physically incompatible with that keyboard.
But split keyboards work great for me! I can rotate one side to accommodate my arm’s curve. Kinesis Freestyle is great for this. Ergodox also works.
By your logic, I guess this makes me a fanboy?
My point is that different people have different ergonomic needs, requiring different devices. It’s stupid as hell to turn this kind of thing into in-group status symbol pecking. The market for these devices exists because one size does not fit all.
> There are keyboards for people who want a truly ergonomic input system and there are keyboards for fanboys
> Kinesis advantage 2 is for the first kind and ergodox is for the fanboys
Maybe it's true, but I bought the Moonlander (same brand as ergodox) for ergonomic reasons. It allowed my hands to be more in line with my shoulders and reduced shoulder pain/tightness I would have at the end of the day.
I want to try the Kinesis advantage, but one thing stopping me is the fact that it's not a split keyboard. I think it's likely my natural arm position is wider than the Kinesis.
> The most efficient tools are usually the most ugly and boring ones
I think there's some truth to this, but speaking it as such an absolute truth seems misguided.
Quite the rabbit hole and definitely worth the read :-)
This seems a good place to bring up an odd experience of mine. I've had carpal tunnel for decades but no longer get many flare ups. After trying numerous keyboards, the solution turned out to be using Apple's Magic Keyboard and whatever their huge trackpad is called. The key for me seems to be low key travel, a smallish keyboard (to avoid any stretching), and avoiding mice (the only flare ups I get anymore are from prolonged use of the family PC). This seems to run counter to most experiences, though!
Same thing here. I've tried tons of different keyboards.
For me, the thing that makes the most difference is a low travel switch and a compact layout. Ideally, ANSI.
I've found Apple Magic Keyboard to be good enough.
Regarding mice, I also like their Magic Trackpad or a Logitech Trackman. It's a shame the latter is not as smooth as the 1990s model.
Everything works great under Linux. Except for Logitech having issues with power saving via USB. But that's a given in all their devices. They should get their stuff together. It can be solved with a udev rule, though.
I (used to) have to use my laptop a lot (meetings, traveling), so it didn't work for me to have a different keyboard at my desk. Then when I got stuck at home, I dug out my old kinesis but it was just too much effort to press those keys, and the cursor keys were just too far away. I could feel the muscles in my arms complaining.
But the pronation and ulnar deviation was a pain, so I bought another one, so now I can angle them perfectly for each hand. If you want to try it you'll need karibiner [1] so that the cmd keys work across keyboards.
I'm still using the magic mouse because I found click-drag with the trackpad to be shitty. Is there a trick to that?
> I'm still using the magic mouse because I found click-drag with the trackpad to be shitty. Is there a trick to that?
Not sure how the magic mouse works, but there's "drag hold" on the trackpad. You "double tap and hold". Tap once, and on the second tap you don't lift your finger off the trackpad, but start moving it around.
Conveniently located outside the trackpad settings, in Settings -> Accessibility -> Pointer control -> Trackpad options -> Enable dragging. https://imgur.com/a/oSrPyDB
You may have to activate tapping (as opposed to pressing the trackpad).
"Without drag lock" actually does lock, but only for a short time. "With" locks until you click again. "Three finger" is new to me, never tried it.
I keep getting advertised Theraguns and similar things almost non-stop on Instagram. Are they worth the expense? And how/where are you using it to improve carpal tunnel?
I get some wild forearm pain if I work too long on a laptop (coffee shop, on couch with dog), or if I hold my phone too long (Pokémon Go, there are literally dozens of us.) In particular, it really seems to be in my brachioradialis muscles.
I tried out one of those generic massage guns at a friend’s place. I had scoffed at the infinite variations I saw advertised on Instagram, but I tried it on those small muscles and: wow. It helps me a lot. I can really massage out my forearms. There’s no way it's strong enough to work on knots in big muscles like quads, but for those little extensor muscles? Seems to help me.
I’ve also been helped by what are called, broadly, “tennis elbow compression pads”. (Linked to Amazon below—not recommending this particular brand, it’s just what I have.). I wear theses at night if I’m having pain, and it seems to help.
Now, the actual solution to my problem boils down to “use a full keyboard and mouse, and don’t bend your arms like a t-rex”, but, well, Pokémon.
I think you would get a lot of benefit out of learning more about trigger points not only in your arms but all over your upper body that can help with carpal tunnel.
The Theragun can do my quads well if I hit the trigger zones. I used to be a national ranked mogul skier so these aren't ordinary quads lol.
Yeah they are! With a bit of research you can find cheaper knock offs too. For carpal tunnel I hit the forearm, bicep, chest, neck. The scalenes in the neck seem to offer the most reward. A book on trigger points and a theragun are very good imo.
No do some boulders, best training for your hole body and you don't even feel it (mainly because you don't want to fall down), BUT start slow and easy for the first 3 month, your ligaments need much MUCH longer to grow strong than your muscles.
Not a silly question, you just make routes where your body-weight is 80% on your feet (but that's always the goal), warmup your hands before 5min under really warm water. If it still hurts too much stabilize your hands looks like that:
This is the first time i have heard about stabilising the hands. I can't make the connection, what would that do if you have CTS? if the muscle starts swelling it will compress the nerve and the nerve is already compressed due to the bone structure.
Gyroscopes are just straight up torture devices for me, as in, 10 seconds and i am out ;)
1. Supplementing helped me with grip. Specifically D3 and magnesium supplements.
2. Practice hanging from a pull-up bar. Calisthenics routines often include "passive and active hangs" and doing these for long holds is a good grip trainer.
Yes. It's so much faster and easier to target. I've foam rolled for years and have every gizmo massage tool out there.
I'd say foam rolling, active pressure release, deep tissue massage, dry needling, trigger point release, acupuncture, acupuncture with tens are all very similar. But percussive therapy with a theragun is easier and something you can do on yourself in ten minutes.
That's super interesting, thanks for sharing. Is the magic keyboard and trackpad considered to be ergonomic? I wonder what's the difference then in split keyboards and such.
Tangential: I find using an actual (Mac) laptop, with the trackpad in front of the keyboard, to be very ergonomic. This is on a desk with a screen attached, so I’m not staring down at the laptop screen.
Rather than the hand sweeping all the way over to the right to reach the mouse, it just twists a little towards the trackpad. The palms never really leave their rests.
I don’t use it like this a lot, but when I do I enjoy it.
In an interesting demonstration of how all ergonomics is personal, my use of a Mac laptop and the repeated wrist rotation from the trackpad to they keyboard and back led to RSI.
That said, I love the Mac trackpad and it has great ergonomic potential, I just personally have to use it with a split keyboard with the halves on either side of the laptop. That way the motion of moving from trackpad to keyboard and back is a bend at the elbow, while the wrist stays straight.
Huh, interesting. I already bend my arm at the elbow when using the trackpad. However, I find the finger position painful if I'm using the trackpad intensively for a while (think lots of scrolling during random web browsing).
A few months ago I have discovered the joys of using a trackball and I think a great setup would be to fit the that between the halves of a split keyboard. I suppose a Kinesis Freestyle or similar could accommodate that.
That being said, even though I absolutely love the mbp trackpad and find the keyboard ok-ish (I have an older, 2013 model), I don't like using it with an external screen. It feels somehow off.
I've always wished for an external trackpad and keyboard combo in this layout, basically a Macbook without the screen to use with your monitor setup. Reaching to the side for the trackpad frequently seems much slower and less ergonomic. Plus the fixed relative layout of the trackpad and keys helps orient myself.
When I purchased my Ergodox, I also discovered that I cross-type the letter Y, and my muscle memory would lead me to hit a layer key instead, in the default layout, which would cause a bunch of the letter keys to do different things.
My solution was to reprogram the layer key to be a null key that doesn't do anything, so instead of "Y equals your keyboard is now broken" it was "Y means nothing happens". I kept it that way for a couple weeks, until my nervous system was rewired, and turned it back into a layer key.
These days, the remaining problem is that I've moved a few 'glyph' keys, so when I'm on the laptop my fingers go to the wrong place when I try to type e.g. "-". It's like I have two modes with substantial overlap, and sometimes it takes awhile to switch to the laptop mode.
Not the end of the world, and more than made up for by the convenience and ergonomics of the Ergodox.
Edit to add: from this and other reports, it's clear that for some people, the ortholinear layout requires substantial adjustment. I wasn't one of those people, it was a rapid accommodation and I don't consciously notice switching between ortholinear and staggered. It would be nice if there were a way for people to guess which category they're in, before shelling out $300 and change on a keyboard!
I found the exact opposite for ortholinears. It took zero time to adjust, and within a day I was actually touchtyping using the properly assigned keys for every letter, something I'd tried many times over the years, but always found super awkward on a normal keyboard. I realised that I'd always subconsciously known there was something wrong with the weird fingers-curling-under-each-other you're supposed to do and it felt like a weight had been lifted!
Of course, that was for prose. It took a month or so to arrive at a satisfactory layout for all the symbols, having suddenly dropped to 48 keys. Though thumbs are so useful! Using them only for spaces is criminal.
Still use a laptop on the couch at home for casual stuff. Still can't type properly on it.
Not much point to this comment, I guess, other than that I highly recommend anyone to borrow someone's plank/preonic/ergodox for a day or two if they'll let you, and bang out some prose. You might be very pleasantly surprised!
Yeah I got the Ergodox and just couldn’t get used to it. I think the ortholinear was a big part of that.
Especially painful as I’m in Australia. I think shipped it was about AU$500. Very not cheap indeed. I sold it on eBay and didn’t take too much of a haircut.
My other concern with the mega-custom layout is the fact that I often use ‘normal’ keyboards. I didn’t want to get used to some special situation and then not be able to use it. (Same reason I’m not putting time in to Colemak.)
Now I just use the Microsoft thing. It does the job.
Had the same issue, instead of no-op did "momentary layer toggle" - the key still switches the layer, but only while you holding it. That gives time to re-adjust.
I used a traditional keyboard, and could not stop peeking at it. I of course remember where each key is, but aligning my hands to it was periodically required, so that I could keep hitting the right keys.
Then I used a traditional-layout split keyboard. It was easier on my arms, but not much on my hands, and I still needed to peek at the keyboard(s) to readjust my fingers. The fact that traditional keyboards shift rows of keys half-width side to side every row, like bricks in a wall, was an obvious obstacle.
Now I got an Ergodox EZ. Its keys are in straight columns, and this helps me a lot. Many keys went to the thumb cluster, lowering the load on pinkies. Then modifier keys went to the home row, and stuff like Ctrl+shift, next to the home row, which helps immensely when using Emacs or VSCode.
My problem with Ergodox is that its pinky columns are uncomfortably positioned for my hand, I still have to move the hand a lot to hit P or Q. Also, a number of keys are hard to reach without moving the hand a lot, which sort of makes little sense when you have layers.
Mechanical switches are also a tough issue. Stuff like MX blue or Gateton green give good tactile feedback, but are loud and take effort to press. MX browns are not quiet enough to count as quiet, and give too little feedback in exchange. Gateron clears are my current choice: not ideal, but at least quiet and soft.
So my next idea is a Kyria with Kailh choc blue (25g) switches. In particular, it should make typing a P easy, and there are no extra keys to force your hand off the home row position.
BTW I wish "normal" keyboards, especially in laptops, took some ideas from the QMK firmware, or adopted it as is. Particularly home row modifiers and the idea of layers are very useful. Layers are currently implemented in a crude way with Fn keys on many laptop keyboards, so customers already are acquainted with the idea.
I also fell down the rabbit hole earlier this year, and eventually I learned that keyboard layouts are like the pirate code: they're more like guidelines than rules, really. I don't know why I felt weird about modifying my personal layouts, but once I got past that I had a much better experience. I don't think it has negatively affected my ability to type on "normal" keyboard in any material way.
I have also enjoyed it. This is really good for accessibility. I suppose you use the "timeupdate" event and "scrollIntoView()" to sync text and audio but I would be interested to read more on how you have achieved this.
Yep, you're exactly right. The SL blog uses Jekyll, so I'm limited to just using a markdown document with some ugly hacks.
Essentially, there's a div before each paragraph specifying the timestamp in its id - all done manually. I use `querySelectorAll` to get a list of those divs, extract the timestamps from the IDs, and store them in an array.
In the audio's `timeUpdate`, I check which paragraph we're on, and if it has changed then scroll to the next sibling of the timestamp div.
I have a ergodox, and while I love it for writing prose in English, I struggle with it a bit for coding. It feels like it needs an extra column or two on the right hand side to have enough space for the symbols and special keys (arrows, home/end/pgup/pgdown, etc). I've tried all kinds of different placements or multi layer layouts to try and make everything comfortable to reach but whatever I try I can't quite get it right.
I'm going to try a separate numpad next I think so I can map some things on to that and have it just to the right to gain the extra key space.
I'm keeping a gallery (just for a quick overview) of ergonomic keyboards. It might be useful for others interested in this thread. There's a lot of options, from something you can order from a large retailer, to a kit to solder yourself, to just plans to download.
You mention "Ergodox" instead of "Ergodox EZ". Ergodox is an open-source design that anyone can make. Ergodox EZ is an implementation of the design by one particular company.
I decided not to mention each Ergodox design -- as far as I know, Ergodox / Ergodox EZ is pretty much the same thing. I don't also list, for example, Falba.Tech's wooden versions of several of the keyboards.
I should probably remove the ErgoDone and Ergodox Infinity for consistency.
There's the Tex Yoda and other Tex keyboards -- I suppose if nothing else there's buying one of those keyboards and repurposing the TrackPoint and its PCB if necessary?
I own ergodox and it has the same issue as the most of the "enthusiast" keyboards (dactyl/manuform, ergodox, plank) - it hates non-english layouts. Typing in Russian is a struggle. The common answer is to remap the keys to double function etc - but this is a bad workaround.
I want something with more columns. I get the "limited finger movement" idea, but sometimes it is necessary. I don't want to do crazy customizations of layout, I just want split (ortholinear, not required to solder) keyboard to replace my Microsoft Sculpt
oh? They added full support to non-english characters some time ago. Maybe take a look in the flashing website tool?
For me, it took a laptop with a full non-english keyboard that enabled me to program it to whatever I wanted to (e.g. "this key is _press laptop localized key here_ that non-english char") but once programmed, it works as expected.
Granted, my non-english characters are still in latin characters though.
It's amazing that we constantly use tools with dozens of buttons permanently fixed to them, but rarely think about how we might yield those buttons to our own purposes. We just accept the defaults without considering other possibilities.
Also gets into the idea of personalized UI more generally. You can imagine something like Photoshop ought to adapt what tools it shows based on how someone uses it. Then again, that would make learning/teaching and sharing really difficult.
It's a surprisingly complex problem. As you point out, more personalised UI, buttons, etc. can be more ergonomic and presumably productive. But then the problem with learning, teaching, and sharing arises.
I also see another problem: lock-in and loss of productivity in other environments. For this reason I prefer to stick to everything as vanilla as possible: so that I can use another computer or keyboard and it "just works" because that's what I'm used to anyway.
Right there with you. The ability to use any system you happen to be in front of without issue is a huge boon in and of itself. I have friends who spend hours customizing every little keybind, using uncommon peripherals, etc.
Does it make them more productive? I honestly have my doubts. The number of times I've had to wait during a group project because a software update broke their keybinds, they're at another desk and are now slow because they don't have the muscle memory for 'standard' layouts, etc is not even close to zero. Even on their own systems, they spend significant time every week tweaking things. For many, I think it is a form of bikeshedding as much as anything.
Big fan of the first, I make small tweaks to my keyboard layout in QMK and they've really added up to a fluid experience.
Strong disagree on the second: Photoshop should absolutely not move controls around on some kind of magic guesswork basis. That would destroy visual/muscle memory and undermine the users sense of control and mastery. Bad news.
It would be pretty great if programs with tool palettes came with a configurator so that the user could deliberately move things around, remove and add tools, and otherwise customize. As long as it was saved in a plain-text config that they could move around, this would be a win, just like it is in text editors.
That is the emacs problem. The defaults aren't bad, but pretty quickly you start falling into the rabbit hole. For me it was I really wanted the Function key mappings I was used to in visual studio in the 1990's to do compile/breakpoint/etc in emacs. So, one you get those, it becomes, that was easy, lets remap goto line/goto definition/etc.
Pretty soon, your emacs is basically incompatible with everyone else's and your carrying around a 2k line .emacs file. Brief was the same way IIRC. The entire user community customized it into a million different environments tailored to each persons tastes.
Darktable, the free photo postprocessing software, lets you assign a hotkey to pretty much any slider (there are many sliders in darktable). While pressing the hotkey, the mouse wheel adjusts the slider, regardless of whether it's currently visible or not.
I would have been perfectly happy if Microsoft had just kept making the Natural 4000 forever. Logitech has some 20+ year old designs they keep producing because for some people they're perfection, and I'd hoped Microsoft would continue likewise since it's been well over a decade with the 4000 too.
But nope, it's dead, and the replacement isn't nearly as good.
I used the 4000 for a number of years, but found that it was causing problems in my right shoulder. The reason is the inclusion of a full numpad makes the keyboard so wide that your mouse hand has to sit really far to your right, causing your shoulder to be in a position of constant rotation and eventual strain. I eventually took a hacksaw to it to remove the numpad, which improved things - but it was the main reason I preferred the successor (sculpt) as the numpad is a separate detachable piece. These days I'm a split keyboard ergodox weirdo because it lets me put a trackpad in between the keyboard segments which means my shoulders can stay in a neutral position the whole time
Have you ever tried switching to using your left hand for the mouse. It is generally recommended for ergonomic reasons even if you don't have a keyboard issue. It'll seem weird to your brain at first, but I got used to it pretty quickly, as did everyone I know who has tried.
When I was in grad school (before I had any ergonomic pains), I had my mouse on the left side at work, and the right side at home - so I was using both configurations daily.
I switched to mousing lefty a long time ago. If you want to get up to speed, just play a few games of solitaire or something like that.
Unfortunately, gaming while mousing lefty is often inconvenient. Many games are set up assuming your left hand is on the keyboard. In most cases you can re-bind the keys though.
After ~20 years of using the Microsoft ergonomic keyboards, I switch to a Kinesis Freestyle Edge RGB. I looked at all the other options and this one seemed the most reasonable for my needs (conventional layout, excellent tilt/split).
I've been very satisfied with it. I was skeptical about mechanical keyboards (even though I'm old enough to remember the original ones), but this thing has been a game changer. I will never go back to membrane keyboards, and the ergonomics of the Kinesis are perfect for me.
Microsoft still sells the 4000 for $50 though, and you can get it for as cheap as $35 if you hit an Office Depot with stock (pre-pandemic anyway, have no idea about the current retail situation).
Along with a "#1 Best selling brand of ergonomic keyboards" icon that isn't on any of the other ms keyboards I just checked.
There have been times when they stopped producing them for a while and I thought they were done. But they have come back after a year or so.
Although, I was at best buy last year and they were $15 each and I bought the entire stock out of the store and its stashed in my attic. So maybe they are planning on an updated version. The only problem with them is really the keyboard feel is a little squishy, but nowhere near as bad as just about 99% of the other non mechanical keyboards out there.
MS has killed the intellimouse a couple times too, and they keep resurrecting it. And it keeps being this crazy good "sleeper" mouse. The latest "Classic Intellimouse" is again maybe the best tracking mouse out there. I just went through my mishmash of various high end mice and swapped them for the classics because I slowly over the span of a year or so (and lots of messing with the tracking on a couple high end logitech mice that cost 4x) came to the conclusion that it simply tracked better on the machine I had one plugged into. I have a desktop resolution that is crazy high, and the combination of sufficient acceleration+fine sampling required to land a mouse pointer on a small button somewhere on the screen is difficult on all but the best mice. I recently found myself struggling to do accurate text selection, swapped in the MS mouse and problem solved. The buttons and infinite scrolling thing on the Logitech/etc will be missed, but at the end of the day its about tracking, and MS again delivers.
I also feel like we hit peak input around 2000 with the Natural Keyboard Elite and IntelliMouse Explorer 3.0 (thankfully, Razer makes mice that are nearly identical).
I've been using the Natural Keyboard Elite since 2001. I'm on my second one, not because the first one broke, but because it was so dirty that I replaced it in 2012. Really regret getting rid of the old one.
I never liked the newer Microsoft ones as much, and I can't go back to a straight keyboard, so I'll have to go down the rabbit hole when this one breaks. This discussion has been really informative.
That keyboard with actually good switches would have been perfect. The squishy rubber comes on the ergo 4000 are really hard to come backs to after using a good keyboard. But the layout is excellent.
What don't you like about the replacement (nit the sculpt, the actual new design)? I consider it strictly better (namely because of the space bar being better).
1) The new Office Key is worthless, in my way, and cannot be remapped. Same for the emoji key.
2) Whatever the button on the left they threw between Ctrl and Windows destroys my mental memory constantly. I was hitting it all the time and never wanted it.
3) They moved Num Lock off the Numpad. Every time I need to find it I have to search because the new location is so counterintuitive and stupid.
4) Rather than one central location to check for the status of *lock, I have to look at keys scattered across the keyboard (including in non-intuitive locations such as "not on the num pad" for num lock)
5) They moved the Print Screen button to another place I'd never look for it.
I wasn't a fan of moving F6 to the left hand but would have gotten used to that eventually.
I had used the Ergo 4000 for 15+ years (and various older Microsoft ergos before that), but this made enough frustrating changes that caused me to look into alternatives out there. I ended up on the Kinesis Freestyle Edge. I didn't want to have to learn a radically different layout (Ergodox, Kinesis Advantage) and have to change every time I moved to a laptop or other machine, and the Freestyle gave me a mostly conventional layout, mechanical keys, and a physical split with enough tilt/tent to get to a very comfortable position.
Num lock is annoying, but for me the F6 key is the bigger issue. Even after half a year or so, I still regularly hit the wrong key.
The new pressure point took some getting used to, but I like it now in comparison to the 4000. The only real issue with that one was how easily it would break from spilling even just a small amount of water. I must have lost three of those that way over the years. Allegedly, the new one is more water resistant.
I haven't had one of the "Natural 4000 v1.0" keyboards fail yet. There was a run of them a few years back where the quality sucked though. I had new ones where brand new out of the box one had to mash some of the keys really hard to get them to register.
As someone else said though, they are very susceptible to crap working its way under the membrane since its oddly shaped (and there are a bunch of individual sections IIRC). I've fixed the coffee on the keyboard problem a couple times by opening them up, and very carefully cleaning them (both the contacts and the membrane) with isopropyl and lint free q-tips.
I love my Kinesis Advantage 2 and would never describe it as old fashioned! If anything it has a look that follows it’s function and happens to not look like the sleekest thing. But one should not look at the keyboard anyway. :P
I used Kinesis keyboards for years, and preferred them over all others I tried... but for the price, the build quality was just atrocious. Went through several of them. Have they improved at all? For $300+ I expect something that feels rock solid and lasts for years, not the plasticky stuff that eventually broke (out of warranty, of course).
I discovered revently that the Kinesis was featured in the background of the film Men in Black, as a futuristic keyboard. The prop department had painted it black and the wave of consumer demand was the reason for them introducing a black version, like the one I have.
I am a fairly competent (110+ wpm) typist, across a few different layouts (mostly qwerty/qwertz). I don't do this kind of deep customization for the same reason I don't use many plugins in vim or a browser: It would render me completely useless on 99.999999999% of the other terminals out there. I have a few different laptops, a desktop, and even with total control of those devices, I still end up on other people's hardware.
If you have medical reasons, I mean, I guess it's better than nothing, but this reads to me like the computing equivalent of moving into the woods and becoming a hermit.
I, myself, went down a similar rabbit hole years ago. I could probably write a similarly long blog post, detailing all the twists and turns, highs and lows of that period. Reading this was kinda triggering some repressed PTSD from it lol.
The highs and lows, thinking that you've found the perfect layout, only to encounter an edge case which there's no solution for and giving up. The continual wishful thinking that "one more modification" and THEN I would have the perfect layout, without ever knowing if that's true. And then when do you stop? I couldn't find a point where I would ever stop, it was maddening. I used a Japanese keyboard for a while [1] to leverage the extra keys on either side of space bar, but then I realized that I probably wouldn't be able to use a laptop normally ever again, which was enough to snap me back to QWERTY.
In the end, I did end up going back to QWERTY, but with some modifications, which I really think improve the problems I have with the layout (sore pinkies) [2], most commonly from jupyter notebooks (hitting shift-enter). It also solves emacs pinky.
I experimented with putting replacing some of the number row, I replaced 9 with backspace. It never occurred to me to put the ctrl/alt/shift family up there though, that's really genius.
Apart from the amazingly crazy story, this is very well written and worth a read even if the title doesn't interest you. And the paint images go so well with the text.
I've been enjoying my ergodox, but have yet to venture out into the layout customization side of things.
The default layout (mostly QWERTY, but split ortholinear) took a week or so to learn and has been totally fine. My only problem with it is that so many of the modifiers depend on my pinkies, which are my weakest finger.
Luckily, the default layout maps control as "hold Z key" which means my pinky doesn't need to travel as much, but it still leaves me with a sore pinky. I'm thinking of mapping a key like "O" that gets hit with a stronger finger like my ring, but inertia is great when changing a habit you've developed daily.
One thing I'll say about the ergodox is that you really notice it's value when you go back to your e.g. laptop's keyboard. Whenever I use my T495, I immediately notice that, while my typing speed is higher, it's putting a far greater strain on my hands and wrists (and back!)
I've experimented with putting some or all of my modifier keys under non-pinky keys like O on my ergodox. My problem with that is that it forces me to drastically slow down my typing. Otherwise typing a word like "word" will register as 'w ctrl-r d'.
I have not found a timeout value that will always register "word" when I'm typing at 110wpm and also Ctrl-r when I'm just lazily hitting that single hotkey :/ It's either too fast or too slow for some use cases.
I have read some posts from people that use layouts like that and it either seems they already type pretty slowly or they have RSI problems and it is worth it to them to slow down.
I had this problem too, so I don’t have any of my normal letter keys as dual-function.
The pointer-finger vertical-middle keys that they default to Hyper and Meh, I changed those to both be Cmd on MacOS (would make them Ctrl on Linux). I set the bottom row and pinky keys to also have lots of modifiers & layer toggles, and my pinky-fingers can hit those modifiers/toggles when needed. Then moved basically all symbols to another layer on easy-to-reach keys.
This means I can type regular words as fast as I want, and can easily reach any symbol when I need it. Only downside is that it takes some adjusting and practice, but I personally think it was worthwhile
Yah, my typing speed is far slower on my ergodox just from lack of practice I suppose (maybe 1 year?), but that doesn't stop me from the occasional "zv" instead of "ctrl+v".
I can't remember a time where I've held z too long accidentally, but yes, z is less commonly used than e.g. O.
I’m two weeks into the ergodox ez, using the onyx trainer a bit each morning. It is just okay, almost wish there was something better. It lags and stuff typing Alice.
How are y’all handling shift? Left Shift is my pinky’s biggest pain. I saw this hold the key for shift option, people using that?
right now, thumb keys are mapped to space/tab and backspace/enter.
It's a tempting prospect, but I'm hard-pressed to sub-out any of those for modifiers. Maybe I can make it "hold enter" or something like that, but that seems like a dangerous prospect
Why is there not an ergonomic keyboard with trackball or some other cursor device built in, so I can use the cursor and mouse buttons without moving my hands out of place? I currently use (and love) am Advantage 2, but I would happily drop another $400 on an ergonomic keyboard with mouse.
The touchpad is in the middle area right above the right-thumb keys, within easy reach of my index finger without having to lift from the home row. Works great.
I had the same thought. I also love the trackpoint on Lenovo (previously IBM) laptops.
But once I tries a split keyboard with a layout that really allows you to keep your hands in one position, I realized that moving my hand to a trackpoint or a trackball, and moving it to a mouse is an equal amount of disruption. At that, a mouse is a much more precise device.
You can also check the "J joystick" idea implemented on some really old laptops, where a regular key is turned into a joystick.
Instead of the J key as a joystick, I want to see touch sensitive keycaps turned into a trackpad.
On iOS software keyboard, holding spacebar then swiping around moves the cursor. I’ve read that a blackberry android phone (Key One?) has similar on its hardware keyboard, but I’ve not seen one in real life or seen a video of that feature specifically (anyone know of one?).
I don’t see much about eyeball tracking these days; if I can look where I want the cursor to be, can’t I push a key to put it there? Surely with the rise of camera tech, computing power, and image analysis tooling that’s easier than it used to be?
I am seriously considering putting together a tiny trackpad to have it located someplace between the two halves of my Sinc. It does seem there are some tiny trackpads for sale, but in the end they all seem a bit too big. I really just want to be able to scroll up / down left right and drag things. Maybe trackpoint could help idk
It will have a trackball module (if everything goes to plan). The modules are still undergoing the manufacture process, the last newsletter said they are delayed and expected "closer to end of November".
Does the article say which website or tool was used to relearn to type, did I miss it? I've got this journey (hopefully not all of it) ahead of me and am looking for ways to aid the transition.
I have a kinesis freestyle. Really like how I can move the parts around depending on what feels more comfortable at the moment. However, I haven't gone down the layout rabbit hole yet.
Are dvorak, colemak, etc also useful when writing in languages other than English?
EDIT: ok, found the answer to my question - depends on the language, but generally not so much. So, a question to multilingual layout geeks - do you learn the best layout for each language? Or do you just optimize the most used one and stick to whatever is the default for other languages?
Also a happy freestyle user here, I have the version for mac. Anyone tried both the freestyle and advantage that could give some points of comparison? Is the advantage 3x as good, same as the price ratio?
I laugh when I read this because the DataHand was so much better but inefficiently manufactured and badly-priced. Five motions per finger well, macros, and mouse control 20-something years ago.
It was definitely ahead of it's time and it's a shame there's no commercially available product like it today.
The Azeron gaming keypad [1] has a similar design but it's mainly intended for gaming so you'd have to get two of them and do some remapping to use it as a proper keyboard.
I think the lalboard [2] and the other DIY efforts in this thread [3] are probably the closest thing to a modern DataHand right now.
Here's someone typing at 120 WPM on a lalboard [4]. It looks so effortless when compared to QWERTY [5].
I do wish we'd start to see some more mass produced DataHand-like designs. I've never used one myself but it does seem like it'd be comfortable to use.
[4] That's me! :) It is quite comfortable to type on. And it's actually great for mouse+kb gaming too. I have 20 keys right at my fingertips, and I typically map all 3 modifiers to the thumb. Although I do recommend more of a straight across asdf (backwards/left/right/forward) movement scheme (or aoeu for those of us of the dvorak persuasion).
The 120WPM was a bit of a cherry-picked example. 95-100WPM is more of a typical average speed for me.
Have you used one? I have always wondered how people find the side to side finger motions to be, in terms of strain and ergonomics. It feels like an unnatural movement. To be clear I've never used one myself.
I used to own one and have probably written about it before; the side to side is not very natural, but no big problem because the fingertip is down in a well with buttons wrapped close around it, so it’s a small movement, and the way the key mechanism works is backwards to normal - instead of pushing all the way until a contact clicks, the keys are magnetically latched at rest and you push them away from that state, meaning it registers at the start of moving not the end so again small movements and you don’t push hard into a resistive surface with the side of your finger to make sure it registers, you flick a gently sprung thing. Look at the keyboard layout too, shown at the top[1] and the pinkies don’t have sideways movement for writing English letters, and the other fingers only go one way, the easier way, for letters.
I didn’t get used to it to use it exclusively; it’s too tuned for prose, extracting your hand carefully to use a mouse, not having an easy way to type anything one handed while holding a mouse or phone (e.g. hold a device type the serial number), awkward arrow keys and less convenient numbers, see “NAS” (Number And Symbol) mode on the diagram entered by right-thumb-down.
It’s been long enough now that I’d like to play with one again, for a bit of novelty.
I actually prefer number entry on the datahand. They're such a reach from home position on a normal keyboard, but they're just as easy to hit as anything else, with a datahand-like.
Yeah, most of the heavily used keys are mapped to north, south and down. There are a few letters mapped to side keys, but they're mostly on the first two fingers. The first finger can do either side direction fairly easily, while the middle finger can do the inward (toward the thumb) direction a bit more easily than the outer direction.
I used to have consistent but relatively mild wrist pain from using a standard keyboard all day, but I was able to alleviate that once I switched to a split ergonomic keyboard which I made.
For anyone who also wants to get their feet wet in the world of custom keyboards it certainly isn't as daunting as you might think. You don't have to necessarily go ortholinear, and you certainly don't have to stray from QWERTY. In fact, just learning to properly touch type and making sure the "right" fingers are hitting the right keys goes a long way with a split keyboard.
I found a lot of my own wrist pain was from the unnatural position that your arms and wrists are in to support a non split keyboard + the unnecessary hand/wrist movement to hit keys with the "wrong" fingers. An ortholinear (or at least column linear) keyboard can go a long way in teaching you where your fingers are supposed to go as long as you are willing to spend a weekend or two learning how to type again.
If you are thinking of diving into making your own, I would recommend the following vendors for kits:
When I worked in IT, I had a love/hate relationship with ergo keyboards. The worst thing in the world is when you sit down at someone's computer to fix their "quick problem" and it takes you forever because you have to figure out their weird keyboard first, or run back to the supply cabinet to get a regular keyboard and hook that up so you can type.
But I myself have been using the Microsoft ergo keyboard for 20+ years. Any time I start a new job, the very first thing I do is request an ergo keyboard.
Guys if you are in the market for split keyboards and can operate a soldering iron, the endgame is Quefrency 2 (60%, you actually don’t need more) or Sinc (TKL I think - without the numpad but with macro row) from keeb.io with Zilent switches. It’s programmable through QMK (so you can use layers).
You can print out decent cases for it (although I prefer aluminum plates) and the switch quality you get with Zilents is far beyond anything offered by pre-built vendors. It’s about 1-2 hours to put together, you only need to solder switches which is super easy and kinda fun. Also you can customize the layout, meaning the size of keys used (1u backspace etc etc). Once you put it together any of these keyboards work OOB now programming is required and there is even a really nice new app (Via) that allows to do all the mapping (even lighting if that’s your thing) via GUI.
They use standard layout so you don’t have to relearn (I have Ergodox and I used it once - whatever the benefit it may offer over split keyboard is negligible compared to the downside of having to adjust to new keyboard and then possibly mess up decades worth of typing habits, so using regular keyboard which happens often still would suddenly feel awkward.
I have both (Quefrency 1 not 2 though) and not affiliated with Keeb people at all, just a happy customer.
Also I run both with blank keycaps so I guess I am a touch typist? Other keyboard I have are Ergodox, Kinesis Edge and Microsoft Sculpt. Quefrency / Sinc are simply leagues ahead of any of those, I can’t imagine using anything else.
I saw the split Ultimate Hacking keyboard and it looks nice and idea to have a custom thumb cluster or trackpoint it enticing, but the bottom row on Quefrency / Sinc covers maybe 80% of possible use cases I could come up with for thumb cluster and QMK layers + Karabiner Elements or similar easily handles the rest of the 20%. Losing the Zilent switches in favor of Kalih that the UHK uses is not worth any of the added customization options.
AMA if you’re curious, again, this may read like an ad, but i am in no way affiliated
EDIT: also I did go down the split keyboard path because I started to get serious elbow pain (tennis elbow) which was in part related to climbing but got really aggravated by the regular keyboard. Then I started to feel numbness in my pinkies and that was actually scary. It is beyond me how people who spend 6-8 hours typing can use regular keyboards after they turn 30
I'll raise you the houndstooth, which ironically, being 40% ortho linear doesn't have jagged edges in spite of the name. Sadly it doesn't look like they're currently available, but it was pretty good value too.
I much prefer the Iris. Ortholinear feels so much better than the standard layout, especially in a split keyboard. I'm just waiting for somebody to put one on a laptop.
Thanks for the great write-up! It's interesting to see how much room there is for personalizing and optimization once you lift the lid on the first change. I started the journey with an ErgoDox and now am typing this on a fully custom hand-wired beast. The great thing about the ErgoDox though is that (a) you can just buy it and (b) it runs QMK and can be programmed through their simple web interface.
For anyone reading this and seeing all the craziness in the post and the linked comments, it's entirely do-able to learn multiple layouts/keyboards and keep them mentally separate. The key thing is to use them both regularly. It doesn't have to be an either-or proposition between "use the standard keyboard of the Earth" and "use this hyper-personalized one". You can in fact use both as long as you don't go cold-turkey and stop using a standard keyboard for six months.
So here's my thing, and I'm wondering if this is true for anyone else. I have a huge keyboard switch tester, and I've heard excellent things about the Ergodox and Moonlander keyboards. But that's a lot of money to invest in an unknown, particularly an unknown where I don't know if the keyboard layout will work and then I'd like the ability to try out some different switches to find something that will really work.
Seems like there's a market here (not huge, but maybe growing?) for either a rent-with-option-to-own thing, or an exchange system wherein people can trade around to try them out.
That isn’t my experience. I have an ErgoDox EZ, and while it’s married to QWERTY, I’ve customized everything else and have 4 layers I regularly use. I also use my MacBook’s keyboard when not at my desk and I never have a problem context switching. I also recently got a windows laptop and put pop_os on it, and after a few days was able to context switch between OSes with different keyboard and different shortcuts without a problem. It takes time, and maybe diligent practice, and maybe my brain is a little weird, but I suspect most people can do this if they’re diligent.
QWERTY, keyboard shortcuts for window management via Rectangle, numbers and symbols, mouse control. Media keys are on one of those layers but that knowledge resides in my fingers not my head, and I’m not at my keyboard.
I want to try a 40-key board so I’m trying to make more use of the layers.
There's already a bunch of other posts disputing this claim (and I want to be clear that I agree with the disputations :) ), but the 2 cents I want to throw in are:
Having built an ErgoDox (from the online plans) I regularly use it and have good muscle memory for it. When I switch to a regular keyboard my muscle memory for that other keyboard kicks in and I'm able to use that one fine.
It's actually harder to switch from using my ErgoDox on Windows to the same ErgoDox on Mac because I use the bottom-left key for control on Windows and the bottom-right key for Command on Mac (both on the left-hand-side of the keyboard).
Even that's not too bad, but there is a noticeable 'switch over' time - maybe 5-10 minutes or so.
This simply isn't true; it's funny how often this criticism pops up in response to unorthodox layouts. Learning a different layout has, in my experience, and in that of most folks I've talked to that have done it, been more like learning to do everyday tasks with your non-dominant hand than some irreversible magical transformation that completely robs you of that ability to use a "normal" keyboard.
I use a split kinesis in qwerty and have no problem moving between keyboards.
I had a friend who went full dvorak and had a hell of a time just changing an airline ticket on my machine, though. A big chunk of this article is about relearning typing for new key layouts...
I dislike using other keyboards (certainly non-mechanical ones), but have no problems doing so. I still use laptop keyboards (macbook pro, Dell XPS) when I'm not at home (rare in current situation) or if I want to use it away from my desk (not that often, but sometimes).
I do have to look at the keys if I'm not using Colemak though.
The advantage 2 was only released in 2016. I myself have the advantage (1) since about 8 years. Sorry for being pedantic here, but that's why that statement tripped me up.
Plenty people who use ergonomic keyboards also use a laptop keyboard directly all the time and there's few complaints about that. Are you talking from experience?
I bounce around between keyboards a lot, because I work on industrial machinery with dedicated computers. I use a standard, flat, 105-key keyboard (with quiet tactile mechanical switches) as my daily driver. I also run 2 laptops, a personal Thinkpad and a company Latitude, usually plugged into a dock with the aforementioned keyboard (I have 3, one on my cart in the shop, one in my home office, and one in my work office).
It takes me half an hour or so to adjust every time I switch machines. The laptop to mechanical isn't so bad, but in particular, the Dell and Lenovo keyboards have different orders of the Function and Control keys, and I constantly enter the wrong key combos if I'm coming from the other laptop. The transition from mechanical keyboard to the rubber ones on machines also leaves me using either too little force to register a key, or slamming my fingertips into the steel backplate at the bottom of travel. And the Fanuc CNCs are high-dollar, highly functional machines, but their keyboards - ugh! Mushy, wobbly, weird row/column spacing and alignment, weird layout... fortunately you can plug in a USB keyboard if you carry one with you, but otherwise I have to slow down to a hunt-and-peck crawl or I make constant typos in an environment where typos can be really expensive.
I do acknowledge that switching from a full size keyboard to a laptop, or from a laptop to a phone keyboard can be pretty smooth. And that the short time adjusting can easily be worth the effort, especially if you're going to be working on a given machine for a few hours. But if they are physically similar and functionally remapped then I don't think I could do it.
I have the same problem, with laptop keyboards/etc. I just have a stock of the MS natural keyboards and I sprinkled them everywhere i'm using a computer for anything that isn't typing out a quick email/whatever.
So drop the laptop on the doc, use a natural keyboard. Drop it on the desk at home, plug in a keyboard, etc.
I use a Kinesis and Dvorak. I have no trouble at all switching between the Kinesis and a macbook keyboard (which is also set to Dvorak) but I'd definately be slow to type English (back to normal person typing speed), and writong code in vim would be a nightmare if I was forced to use a random machine and not able to switch the layout.
Luckily, you can switch easily to Dvorak on most systems for the last couple of decades. Something that's less true once you start inventing your own layouts (though I think Colemak, Neo and Workman are decently suppprted).
Also, people who learned to touch type QWERTY suggest you can swap back even after learning a new layout. I never learned qwerty that well but return to standard nerd level of familiarity.
I feel like most ergonomic keyboards work better for regular typing. A lot of the ergonomic (split) keyboards still force your hands in awkward positions if you're coding because of all the weird parentheses and symbols you don't normally use. What I haven't tried yet are ortholinear keyboards or tiny keyboards like the Atreus. Judging by the layout I'm guessing ortholinear keyboards would still force your hands into awkward positions at the (pinky) edges, so avoiding that by using a tiny keyboard might be an option?
On the very small boards you use chording to access different layers for symbols and numbers.
Like for me I hold down my right thumb key (which is also space if i were to just tap it) and that changes the layer allowing me type symbols like (){}[]<>.
In practice it's as if you were using shift to capitalize something and it becomes second nature very quickly.
Getting used to chording and layers is what allows you to eventually use less and less keys like the split 36 key board I use these days: https://kagizaraya.booth.pm/items/1235510
I work in IT for 25+ years and had all kinds of keyboards. Some were fine, other less fine but all of them did the work.
I think that these (btw interesing) articles on keyboards are particularly relevant to pepole who constantly type (or hobbyists).
I work with a keyboard all day long and also afterward for fun but I type only a fraction of the time. I also look at the keyboard when doing so, so I am slow. But I do not need to be faster (it would be great, though) and my hands are not in the same position. I am not sure a special keyboard would help pepole in my case.
When people learn Colemak, sometimes they unconsciously try to "ground" their fingers on the home position, and that makes typing very strainful indeed when typing on the middle columns.
When typing on the middle column, make sure that your fingers float freely, and the middle and ring fingers should move along with your index finger, e.g. when pressing the 'H' key, the middle finger should be hovering approximately between the 'J' and 'K' QWERTY position.
Considering using multiple keyboards is what triggered this rabbit hole, note that the Logitech Craft can be used with 3 computers at the same time (there are keys to switch which one you're targeting), it's very convenient and the keyboard is silent.
Great article. No mention there, or in these comments, about using split boards vertically- I adopted this two years ago and won't go back. It's trivial to strap a split board to a box of approximately shoulder width. The result suits me best - forearms and hands stay vertical in the handshake position. I don't understand why more people don't try it.
The problem with learning an alternative keyboard layout is that it makes you suck at QWERTY. I didn't realise how much I type on other people's keyboard until I tried to learn Dvorak.
Is there any science on what ergonomic risks exist and what kinds of mediations improve things? I have only seen articles sponsored via various keyboard companies.
I use the CloudNine split ergo mechanical keyboard. It is nearly identical to the Microsoft Ergo 4000. I lost no typing speed, unlike when I tried the ergodox ez.
The biggest problem I find with traditional mechanical keyboards are they are too tall, you need wrist support ideally. Newer low profile keys are coming out which are much more comfortable, (I just can't afford yet).
I have that exact trackball mouse and haven't had a single issue with Manjaro 20+. The nice thing about the usage of it with linux is it natively knows LMB & RMB is MMB. In windows you need logitechs software to get it to work.
I've since become an ambidextrous mouse user. Rollerball for left, traditional for right.
I like Ergodox, especially because of their super flexible configuration, but I dislike the flatness of the keyboard compared to the Kinesis and last time I looked, they limited the length of macros "so you don't store passwords in them".. ehh, that's a stupid reason for adding limitations. As an adult, I can make my own decisions on what I store in my macros, thanks (I use a password manager, so its not passwords)