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Amazon drivers are hanging smartphones in trees to get more work (bloomberg.com)
440 points by Umofomia on Sept 1, 2020 | hide | past | favorite | 241 comments



I used to work at Uber and we would see similar behavior from drivers at airports. There would be a geofence around the parking lots where drivers had to wait before they could be sent a ride. However, the app would still send a ride to the closest available driver, so they would all lean their phones against the gate to get as close to the edge of the geofence as possible.

Ultimately, Uber implemented a FIFO queue at these lots, meaning a driver was added to a waiting list as soon as they entered the lot, thus removing the need for this behavior anymore.


Most every taxi firm in the uk has a piece of plastic water pipe and a bunch of ping-pong balls. As each driver comes back they take their number from the basket and drop it into the far end of the tube. The next call that comes in, and the despatcher takes the ball out the "near" end.

It is an almost foolproof FIFO pipe (literally), simplemfor everyone to understand and very cheap to run.


I had a driver tell me he’d get his friends to call in fake rides if things were slow, which meant that he got to the front faster. He was convinced everyone else was doing it too.

I did not leave a tip.


Is it common to give tips to taxi drivers?


As with a waiter, failing to tip a cabbie is expressing extreme displeasure.

The stressful and annoying payment dance at the end of a cab ride was a not-insignificant factor in the rise of ridesharing.


It must be completely dependent on where you're from. Over here you tip neither waiters or cabbies. I have no idea why you'd tip the taxi driver at all. I'm glad that with Uber you can just pay through the app and that removes the stupid "just keep the change" attitude. Most other taxi companies are implementing their own apps with online payment nowadays so fortunately this habit is dying out(one can hope).


Interesting, being a clueless european I thought that this was common only for waiters and deliverymen in the USA.


You tip everyone in the USA. Hairdressers, handymen, babysitters, car mechanics, coffee baristas, bartenders, cab drivers.

Why should employers pay employees when their customers can do it for them?


Wait... car mechanics too? If you’re already billed for human labor cost on your invoice, what percentage do you tip on top of that? How is it shared between employees of the shop?


I have lived all over the US and have never tipped a car mechanic or heard of someone doing so.


Assuming you go to the same garage, and that the mechs are not the owners... Your car is one of many at the garage. You may have particular expectations on time or how you like your settings (specific wheel alignment, etc) A bit of extra "appreciation" means your car may get fixed earlier, and come back with a few extra things adjusted without being on the bill, along with extra care to meet your specific asks.

Or so I was told. I saw it more when I was younger than I do today.


And somehow I get that in the rest of the world by just being a regular customer, without paying a tip.


I've never tipped a car mechanic. They bill their labor rates anyways, tipping in such circumstance should never be expected.

Generally, most tipping is at restaurants and bars/pubs. Hairdresses/barbers/salons is also very common because of the close personal interaction with the worker.

Most of the time you tip at businesses that would be expected to employ low-education, or poorer or immigrant workers (and by extension, more easily abused workers.) Restaurants, salons, car washes, etc, all tend to employ poorer, less educated people, and also tend to be highly tip-based businesses. So for the most part you're expected to tip at businesses that traditionally abuse and underpay their employees.


I’ve had great relationships with independent shops and only tip when they do something quick and don’t charge.


It seems weird that USA is in general more expensive than europe if this is the case.


Yeah. Like why can I get a draft beer anywhere in Amsterdam for 3 euros MAX 4. At the top of the 5 star Okura hotel, beers are 4/5 euro. Of course, fancy beers can be 6 euros.

But in the USA, it is not uncommon to see Budlight selling for 8 dollars or more. (don't forget to tip!)


Yes I noticed the same thing, but only in the cities. Cost of living there is generally higher and income is as well. If you go to a small town in the US a beer can be 3 dollars and a coffee 1.50 or so.

If they weren't using the same currency there would probably be difference in inflation due to very different economics between let's say New York and some tiny rural village.


In the US it is also customary to NOT tip if the person performing the service is the business owner. Eg at a hair salon or similar.


Hairdressers and car mechanics? Really? :o


I've never tipped my mechanic, but I absolutely tip my hairdresser. I suppose it depends on the place, though.


>car mechanics

Really? I never know anyone doing this


Wait, deliverymen? I don't tip the UPS, FedEx, or USPS guys. The only type of person that comes to my house that I tip is the garbage guy, and only when I have a particularly large garbage pile to take out. They send out cards around Xmas with the official tipping procedure, but I do it whenever I have an onerous load, not at a certain time of year.


In Germany, dumpster staff is disallowed from taking cash tips due to corruption concerns: https://www.br.de/radio/bayern1/weihnachten-trinkgeld-postbo...


Is it common to give tips to taxi drivers?

In the US, yes.

People I regularly tip: - wait staff - barber - delivery service (for oversized packages/furniture delivered into my home, not general UPS/FedEx deliveries that are left on the doorstep) - taxi driver

It's a side effect of a low minimum wage. Most of the rest of the western world has the minimum set closer to a living wage.


Not much in the UK (which is where I was) but I usually tipped them anyway, unless they were jerks. In the USA it's much more expected.


In the US and Canada, very.


But why? I somewhat get the argument with waiters - they are paid shit wages, so somehow it became a cultural norm that customers have to subsidise waiters since their employers are too cheap to pay properly. Like, ok, I don't agree with it, but that's the system you build for yourself so that's the one you have to deal with.

But why taxi drivers? Why delivery drivers? Are those groups also poorly paid because they rely on tips? Why other social groups haven't adopted this? Are your electricians also charging $1 an hour of work and then expect that you leave a tip that saves them from poverty?


I don’t understand why the person that hands you the food gets 20 percent yet the person who cooked it usually gets nothing.


At German train station the taxis form a line. You are expected to take the first car in the line. If you try to take another one most drivers will tell you to go to the first car.


Same here (UK) the only exception to jumping their taxi queue is if you need a specific vehicle further back in line (large, wheelchair friendly, etc)


Or if they don't want to carry you because you need to "cross the river" or get out of Zone 1.

Does not happen nearly as often since Uber is squeezing them though.


That's the way it works pretty much everywhere in Europe in my experience.


And it is how taxi lines work or worked in the US. App-based hailing changed this, since there is no longer a designated physical place where the line would exist. Building a virtual-line, makes plenty of sense, and in hind-sight was something overlooked.


This happens in Norway as well. Unfortunately different companies charge different rates, so I refuse if the first in line is one that charges more than others.


This is it, chief. I work in a place where work used to be pick-up-able instantly and all the pain of that went away when pools were introduced.


I love solutions like this. Had I been called on to solve their problems, I probably would have built a "simple" app. I try to remember solutions like this when I am tempted to over complicate a problem.

Though I'm already thinking about how maybe the balls need some sensors or we codes so we can have data and a dashboard.


I believe FIFO is evil. It encourages people to form queues. I'd rather make it a random pick from the set of those within a reasonable range.


I'll take the bait, and say the exact opposite:

I firmly believe that queuing is the very basis for, and perhaps definition of, civilization itself.

(British, can't you tell?)


Then have I got the queue for you!... LiLo...

:D


Why evil?


If I know it's FIFO - I come as early as I can.

This way I both struggle myself (as I never want to go there that early) and harm the others' comfort and convenience by occupying the place, making the queue longer. People also tend to conflict, fighting for their place in the queue (I had to witness and to participate in too many queues in my life, people become nasty there).

If I know it's random I come whenever I'm comfortable.


If you think people fight in a FILO queue you wait till you see what happens when the one guy who’s been randomly waiting all day sees you randomly get randomly served first 5 times in a row.


you do understand that the only difference is a fixed waiting time vs. a randomized one.

Meaning you still wait the same amount of time on average, just have a bunch of "that was quick" and "wtf. I'm waiting for 4 hours" thrown in there. Not an improvement if you ask me.


I would like the option to have my call sent to the highest rated driver.


Interesting... maybe I haven't taken enough Ubers to notice, but I generally can't tell the difference between a 4.9 driver and a 4.7 driver.

Would you pay more to guarantee getting the highest rated driver near you?


Maybe one can charge a "thrill premium" for the "opportunity" to ride with a "sub 4.0" driver?


It worked for marketing yellow "champagne" diamonds. I joke that the next trend is "chocolate" and "dark chocolate" for selling brown and black-ish industrial diamonds on the retail market.



Now we're talking. I could get a list of prices vs ratings.

I haven't had a "bad" experience, but I've had some better than others.


> Would you pay more to guarantee getting the highest rated driver near you?

Part of Uber Comfort's value proposition is that only highly rated drivers are allowed to participate.


Oh my, that reminds me of that Black Mirror episode with the red-headed girl that only thought about her rating 24/7.

Edit: Season 3, Episode 1 "Nosedive"


LOL here in Manchester they had ways to spoof their location/cheese the system for ages, it's one of the first things I've learned after moving here last year (had to use Uber a lot).


Am I crazy or is the solution the thing you'd design in the first place if trying to make the simplest system possible


I worked on this feature at Uber, it’s not as easy you think. Airports are notoriously hard and diverse across the world.


Does the amazon brain actually think that the person standing 10/20/50 feet closer is the better person for the job? My first impression was that these phones were being run by people blocks/miles away, but they are actually only a few feet closer.

>> That means a phone in a tree outside Whole Foods’ door would get the delivery offer even before drivers sitting in their cars just a block away.

That seems ridiculous. Plus or minus what, a minute? There has to be a better way to select drivers.


The requirements were surely to give preference to closer delivery people, and the easiest code to write will simply order delivery people by distance.

The simplest solution is therefore that, yes, someone 10 feet away will get it before someone 20 feet away.

The developers would have to go out of their way to add a buffer zone, e.g. find the closest person, add 1,000 feet, find everyone within that range, then select randomly. Or create a "local zone" distance range and a queue. Or other options -- once you try to figure out "what's fair" it gets really complicated.

That extra code is only going to get written if it has to.

So there's nothing ridiculous about it at all. In fact it's the simplest, most expected solution.

Now that it's news, however, Amazon might actually come up with more sophisticated requirements.


This sort of "unintended consequence of over precision" has happened a few times... I remember a while back a dating app (I think?) was returning the distance between the two people with a ridiculous amount of precision, which allowed people to triangulate where someone was with three phones


Here’s an article about how Tinder fixed it: https://robertheaton.com/2018/07/09/how-tinder-keeps-your-lo...


Oh man, I forgot they originally sent the actual location. I still can’t believe how many developers think you can trust the client.


Someone even made a triangulation app to pinpoint other users of Grindr.


Aye, with Tinder, but no extra-devices or actual travel was needed: https://blog.includesecurity.com/2014/02/how-i-was-able-to-t...


Oh right, they just used the API.


Is "cutting the queue" (what this is) an unintended consequence of having a queue? It's perfectly normal behavior. Maybe it gets resolved socially, or the solution could involve tracking whether the follow-up movement happened as assumed (the real hidden assumption). Making a buffer and reducing precision doesn't solve anything actually, it makes it socially more difficult, but it's really a hack, as was choosing the closest physical phone whether a warm body was attached or not.


I think if they randomly select someone with a range, it would make it not as important to try to be physically closer. It wouldn't stop all gaming of the system, but it would be a start.


You'd want to tweak it so you were picking the person in range who went the longest without a gig rather than a naive random pick. Lot more encouraging for the workers vs watching the guy who just got a gig receive yet another before them.


why not randomize selection of everyone within a certain radius rather than just "closest" ? That seems like it would be more fair.


Why would you ever choose to penalize the actual closest driver (gamed algorithm aside)? It seems like a completely reasonable algorithm. In theory, the algorithm sends the closest driver away on a delivery, moving the next closest to the front of an implicit queue.

It would be nice to have perfect knowledge beforehand of how an otherwise reasonable algorithm will be gamed once it's out in the wild.


If there's an algorithm in charge of optimizing, it will be gamed. If there's a single algorithm controlling a large population, it'll be catastrophically gamed.


There is a more general rule than that, I would tie that to Goodhart's law/adage "when a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure".

It's similar here, when an algorithm is in charge of optimisation it has its heuristics, they will be gamed as they are measures that became a target.


This is such an obvious way to game the system though, if they had put literally any effort into trying to make a system that can't be abused, they would have caught it. Either the system wasn't thought through, or it was thought through by someone with no understanding of how groups of people behave.


It's obvious that people will hang phones from trees?

The reason you're reading this on hn today is specifically because it is novel group behavior.


Na he just means when developing something the first thing you try to do is think how can this be abused.

By handing out jobs to the closest device and not checking the last job that device received is poor programming.


They are probably also measuring by bird distance...


I don't mean to be "that guy" correcting someone's English, but you don't seem to be a native speaker, so I hope this will be well received.

The actual phrase should be "as the crow flies." If you say "bird distance," you might get confused looks from people.

Just trying to help. :-)


I like "bird distance". I knew immediately what was meant, and it was more succinct than "as the crow flies"


I agree, I move that we change the idiom and that pmiller2's remarks be stricken from the record.


Yeah, me too. I didn’t even look twice. And I’m not sure I agree with the advice to use a tired expression rather than something more original.


In Swedish we say ”the bird way”, as in ”it’s x km going the bird way”.


In German we say "the airline" airline is already taken in English.


Air-line, I like it.


In Croatian we use "air distance"... I'm going to be smug about it's more understandable than both (even though I like the Game Of Thrones association when ever I hear "as the crow flies")


But how to know if the bird is flying or driving?


And is it African or European?


Laden or unladen?


No, he said it was a crow, not a swallow


Or if it gets lost along the way. And who says they actually fly in straight lines?


Or swimming :)


The correct term for this measure of the geodesic is orthodromic distance and is guaranteed to get confused looks from people, which is often my intention.

You may then proceed to explain this refers to the distance by camel.


Telling people the shortest path is a great circle is also fun.


Me: 'The shortest distance is a straight line'

You: Except on a globe, it is a great circle.

Me: 'Nobody said on the surface. I'm tunneling through.'


It's more like that on the surface of a sphere, great circles are lines. That's how it's interpreted in spherical geometry.


You're right to gently correct here.

That said, "bird distance" is going in my lexicon.


I read this more as Charlie Day joining hn and I think I prefer it that way.


Honestly, I prefer "bird distance".


I wish this entire thread of replies was an FP of its own. “Slang terms for linear distance through history” (arxiv.org) or something :)


In German, it's "Luftlinie", which literally means "air line" (while airline is "Fluglinie" ("flight line") or "Fluggesellschaft" ("flight company")).


most likely from French "distance à vol d'oiseau" (or "distance d'oiseau" in short)


I'm a french speaker so I also got the reference right away, didn't realize this was not as common in English


I assume the exact details of "bird distance" is found within "bird law".


No, the correct term is “geodesic”.


Bird distance. Not just crows fly straight.


as long as it's not these birds. they'll never get there. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4f_1_r80RY


Don't want to be that guy - then don't.


... and probably only from a specific point. You might be inside the place right at the kitchen's door and be further away in their system than if you stood outside somewhere close to the coordinates of the point.


It's just amazingly interesting to see our own societal evolution in action, rapidly spurred on by technology.

A company or event or technology changes something, and an evolutionary/behavioral niche newly forms to take advantage of it. People are smart and infinitely adaptable...


> our own societal evolution

I'm not sure I'd call it "evolution" so much as a race to the bottom. The drivers in this article are now forced to pay an intermediary in order to secure work that was previously available for free. It's basically a form of scalping.

This is why labor laws are important and why classifying employees as contractors can be so detrimental.


"Evolution" does not always mean "development in a positive direction". This is absolutely a response to environmental pressures.

But yes, I agree with your second paragraph.


Well the part of the article where third parties are exploiting desperate people without the right to work by subcontracting.


However these are the essence of contacted work. A job is put up and you choose to take it. There is nothing being forced upon anyone. I know people who drive for Uber, no one is forcing them too. They have their stories of taxi drivers who tripled or quadrupled their income by switching.

Using California's onerous law that has caused so much trouble in this area, did you know that taxi services are not affected unless the city or county regulation body says so? isn't that interesting? they typically are in rental agreements with cars and medallions. However the government has a vested interest in medallions and these companies donate to local politicians all the time. Their workers are getting the shaft but it does not make news because it does not involve an internet company with billions.

The situations I do not like were stories surrounding instacart shoppers being able to cancel tips after delivery, now that is fraud and the company should be liable. I believe uber eats did something similar. T


> There is nothing being forced upon anyone.

This is leaving out the lack of the normal jobs which would be created if the employer couldn’t avoid it this way. People are desperate enough to take gig economy jobs because there’s been a steady erosion of other options.


I don't think those jobs losses were caused by the gig economy, though. Rather the gig economy arose out of the glut of labor available.

It's an important distinction to make. Although Uber et co may be predatory on underutilized workers, I don't think banning them is going to bring back the better jobs that used to exist.

The best way to make Uber pay better would be to have compelling other options for these workers; easier said than done though


> There is nothing being forced upon anyone.

There is something. Automation. With automation, Amazon is able to squeeze every inch of performance out of a single worker, which means less workers needed, salaries down, people more hungry for work.

It is well past time to regulate profits from automation and redistribute those profits to the population. Taxes.


Is this evolution? I'd say it's just adaptability. Evolution requires generations, I thought.


The word evolution can mean change in a general sense. E.g. an evolving situation.


It isn't technology so much as policy essentially. We see parents holding their kids back so they perform better in sports. Humans /will/ game any system in potentially horrifying ways to gain an edge.


This particular case is a textbook example of market failure - we've added actors to the market who do nothing productive, game the system and scalp profits.


We're also seeing free markets adapting to the lockdown and recovering.


Especially the stock markets with all the free money and emergency government loans directed to the usual suspects


It is pretty easy to spoof GPS locations, at least in Android, in a way that is undectable to apps using location services. Might be a better option for these drivers?


Eh, it's less easy than it used to be if the application developer really doesn't want you to use a spoofed location. Pokemon GO and SafetyNet have been doing next-level in their ability to detect root.

And GPS spoofing as a debug feature is built into Android now, so there's less legitimate reason to need root to do GPS spoofing


That might require a level of technological sophistication that a lot of drivers don't have.


It seems that they use an app to synchronize the tree phones with their real phones.

Also the article states that the drivers are using 3rd party specialized apps.


Millions of people spoof GPS to play Pokemon. Pretty sure the drivers could figure it out.


aren't they banned on a large scale? just heard it, not playing


from being a player (who doesn't do this), it tends to be a short temporary ban, and an arms race between Niantic and the people doing it (aka spoofers), with Niantic losing it most of the time.


Seems like a business opportunity for someone to sell them that service (sell them an app, or personally configure their phones, or both).


"Business model: Uber, but for Uber"...


Like a gold rush, sell the equipment and services. Not the mining.


Or one driver who shares it with/sells it to the the others.


Not as easy as you might think. Not sure about amazon but some apps have anti-spoofing detection. Not sure what they look for, probably precision and correlated data


Yes, there are methods that apps can implement to detect anti-spoofing but as long as you have physical control of the computer/smartphone then it is just a matter of time before the anti-features are defeated if there are incentives to do so -- especially a monetary incentive.

Case in point... I found a whole community dedicated to spoofing Pokemon Go -- https://old.reddit.com/r/PokemonGoSpoofing/


As a former (very casual) spoofer…it’s far, far harder than it used to be.

When the game was new-ish, and I was on Android, it was trivial. Just install a GPS spoofer, move the on-screen control, and you start walking. Nice when it was winter.

It was also terrible for the gameplay, and they cracked down hard. You can still spoof, but it requires a relatively high degree of technical ability. On iOS, you have to, generally, install a shady enterprise certificate and use a hacked third-party binary of Pokémon Go. On Android, you have to have root, and then jump through many other hoops that are specific to your phone and OS version.

All of that boils down to…yeah, you can always find a hack, but past some level, it becomes extremely fragile, and you would not want to rely on a hack for your livelihood. (And if you are capable of staying ahead of the app and OS developers, well, I suspect there may be a different job opportunity out there for you.)


I agree, it seems they saw a bunch of phones hanging in a tree, so I'd give them the benefit of the doubt it is an existent phenomenon, but would also question the extent. It's interesting because the case here is that the gig worker wants to behave like an employee, basically polling the system and taking a job without evaluating it is akin to getting assigned it. It feels like the flip side of what you normally see.

Now the problem here is the why, that is necessity, desperation. And the who, which is that it seems some parties might be predating here, snapping up the gigs and basically scalping/arbitraging them.

The part I grapple with is that it's certainly unfair for companies to utilize gig workers and expect employees. Is it just as wrong for a company to stand by and watch their gig workers sort of organize themselves into employees?


Did you mean for this to be a reply to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24343643?


Ah apologies, yes I did. Thanks!


Wouldn't Amazon just adjust its algorithm to punish delays in delivery? Penalize drivers who take longer to get there than they should if they were truly nearby?


Apparently they are putting the phones in a location that is impossible to be physically closer to in order to get the job first -- park car, walk over to the tree to sync your phone then wait in your car for the next job offer.

The trick -- per a previous job -- is to figure out where the computer thinks the address is (on the street, in the middle of the parking lot, &etc...) and get your location as close as you can to that to get an edge over the competition.


This reminds me of when I was a Lyft driver and in SF there is a dance studio under the central freeway; sometimes dropoffs would tell you to drop the person off on central freeway and jump down to the building.

The bullit room was another tricky one; entrance is on a hotel lobby off of the stockton tunnel, but google maps has you go to a sketchy alley off of bush. It's even trickier for the driver since the sketchy alley is also called "bullit".


Why are drivers willing to allow this and not just walking over and destroying these phones? I don't understand the benefit of getting more deliveries but at the cost of a significant percentage of the payment.


Because destroying other people's phones is a crime.


But the drivers using this technique are truly nearby, they are getting the route on the phone in the tree and then forwarding the route information to their own phone in their car, and they are presumably in the area.

They are trying to beat out the other drivers waiting nearby them, not sit at home and only leave the house once they get a route.


The Amazon drivers seem to be far less careful in their deliveries as well. In the past, deliveries were delivered to my porch. Then the started showing up on my drive. Yesterday my wife found a book delivery under a shrub next to the curb.


Simple Solution: Treat all phones within X distance of the store as being the same distance away. If the typical parking lot is 1/4 mile away, that's the minimum distance to use.


It is no different from traders laying down their own cables and private communications infrastructure to get a millisecond advantage on trades on the DOW.


It is quite different. They are Amazon’s own fleet of workers, competing to get work assigned to them by Amazon.


Not employed by Amazon since they are "gig" workers , pretty sure there are similar hacks used by Uber/Lyft drivers to get the best paying rides.


Gig workers are still workers. This whole ridiculousness would be avoided if they just paid them like the employees they should be.


It's a little different, in that Amazon Flex isn't a two-sided market. But similar? Certainly.


Don’t forget that the stock exchange itself is an entity.


I always wonder in these kinds of articles how many people are doing this. The problem is that it is so sensationalized, that it could be that there are 10 people doing this, and it's not really a big deal. Or it could be that 50% of the people doing this work, do this. For example, the article says that it reviewed photos and videos of phones near Whole Foods and Amazon delivery stations. Okay, so how many phones did they find? How many people do they have personal knowledge doing this?

I've noticed that a lot of news articles tend to take a few examples of something outrageous, but never say anything about how widespread the practice is. I find it hard to be outraged or care unless there is some quantification of the problem. In any system, people will find a way to cheat.

Amazon is aware and maybe they are working on a way to fix this, but it's not clear Amazon has had much time to figure out what to do. Even if you think Amazon is evil and doesn't care, it takes time to figure out how to defeat this. Maybe they won't care, but at least give them some time to respond.


> I've noticed that a lot of news articles tend to take a few examples of something outrageous, but never say anything about how widespread the practice is.

That's entirely on purpose. Most of such "outrageous" things, including some hot political topics, wouldn't look nearly as outrageous if it were compared against the baseline. So necessary information is not included. Actually informing people "weakens the story".


Don't underestimate the role of laziness. It's much less work to just find a localized instance of something, and then report it as a phenomenon vs. doing the actual in-the-weeds journalism in order to get a widespread view of the topic.


I can't help but think of the stories from before stock market colocation was a thing. Nowadays the stock exchanges have a fair setup where people can put their machines in the same data center as stock exchange. And everyone gets to connect with an equal length wire. But before this modern solution, it was a free for all with companies trying various tricks to rent space as close as possible.


Isn't this sort of still the case in HFT, where some firms try building e.g. their own microwave radio tower networks to beat others by a few milliseconds?


Or shortwave between the US and Europe https://sniperinmahwah.wordpress.com/2018/05/07/shortwave-tr...

(I recommend reading the whole series, it's fascinating!)



Nit: the microwave networks themselves are a standard feature of a lot of exchanges, such as SIX and CME. There is some posturing between companies building receivers that you may have heard about[1], but that is largely because companies are building towers so close they are causing interference.

The tower location does not have much of an effect on latency because the microwave network in this case always terminates at NYSE. If you build your microwave tower a few feet closer to the transmitter (Chicago), then you have to run a few more feet of cable to the colo.

[1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-03-08/the-gazil...


CME has its own microwave network? Got a link?



Yeah, it's okay if stock traders do it. But if Amazon drivers do it, ...


Yes - between Chicago and NYC.


I believe there is one between London and Frankfurt as well.


There are also MW links within the NY/NJ region.


That's only if you're arbitraging between multiple exchanges at physically different locations. If you're just interested in having low latency to one market, you just pay the colo fee.


Yes, but it is microseconds.... not milliseconds.


A possible use for SpaceX's Starlink as well. Starlink doesn't have to follow the curvature of the earth so over long enough of a distance it is actually shorter and quicker to use Starlink.


Under ideal circumstances Starlink is claiming a 15-20ms ping. That's already too high for HFT.

Also they're only orbiting about 200 miles above Earth, so unless you're already relatively close to your target location, you'll need to bounce your traffic across a whole bunch of satellites, each adding a fractions of a ms just for hardware processing + light speed to the next hop. In fact over any sufficiently long distance, doing this will actually resemble a longer curved arc circumscribing the arc of the Earth.

People who really need those extra few ms have little choice but to stick to the ground, near the exchange.


Don't you actually want to be as close to curvature of earth as you can? Or actually even under it. Straight line through the planet or crust would be the optimal route. Any distance you go up is making it longer than curvature.


I think GP is confusing things a bit. Starlink can actually be faster, but it's because laser links in a vacuum are on the order of 1/3 faster than terrestrial fiber optics. The distance is longer, but the information travels faster by a large enough margin to overcome the distance and result in overall lower latency.


Right, so if you can't go through the crust then going up would be another option. Over long enough of a distance, say NYC to London (or even farther), the overhead of going up first and then a "straight" line horizontally (it's not completely straight because it has relay between the satellites via LOS laser but each arc would be fairly long) and back down would be shorter than a line following the curvature. (Edited: This is wrong. I had conflated the lower latency with shorter distance as others have pointed out.)

BTW, I want to give full credit to my source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giQ8xEWjnBs

It also does a much better job of explaining it than I have but it is a convincing argument for how Starlink can be useful and why traders would be willing to pay a lot for it.


> Over long enough of a distance, say NYC to London (or even farther), the overhead of going up first and then a "straight" line horizontally (it's not completely straight because it has relay between the satellites via LOS laser but each arc would be fairly long) and back down would be shorter than a line following the curvature.

That is nonsense, the route is longer. You are confusing stuff, light travels faster in air compared to fiberoptic cable, so the latency will be lower, but distance is actually longer.


> Nowadays the stock exchanges have a fair setup where ... everyone gets to connect with an equal length wire

"Everyone" is pretty questionable here - it's quite expensive to rent rack space in an exchange, and not everyone gets to do it. That said, I think basically anyone who has any business doing latency-sensitive trading is probably capable of getting a rack.


The prices are minimal -- at CME I believe it's ~15k/month for a 52U cabinet. You can rent these even as a private individual (several friends have rented individual racks as part of a syndicate group renting the whole cab).

Of course, that price isn't insignificant per se, but are minimal for anyone who actually achieves any benefit from having co-located space.


Hmm, my former firm’s colo expenses were quite a bit higher than that would suggest, but I don’t know the breakdown across all the different datacenters.


Yeah; the logical conclusion of free market doctrine is that everything will become a spot-traded market, traded at the highest frequency possible. Complete with all sorts of dodgy payyment for order flow, arguments over best execution, pseudo-indexes like LIBOR, and overt front-running of clients.


From their very beginnings stock exchanges were by definition “colocated” as you had to meet in person to perform a transaction.

(I know you meant server colo but I wanted to point out that this is yet another case of the back and forth swing Of distributed and centralized)


Instead of paying their drivers a fair wage regardless of how much they deliver, they're letting them fight amongst themselves while they laugh all the way to the bank.

And the drivers actually seem to want this, knowing full well the market is oversaturated. If Amazon were to pay drivers a fixed amount, they'd probably end up with much less drivers.


Unidentified person or entity?

Just talk to the guy with a baseball bat hanging out in the vicinity to thwart all the "yay free phones!" folks.


It's enough that they wrote this piece, it may very well kill this system - the trick gets less profitable for drivers as more of them participate.

That, and being in the news will probably spur companies to combat this.


Or charging "rent" for hanging your phone on "his" tree


I have a hard time believing this story, not because the technological explination doesn't make sense but because it is my understanding that there is no shortage of work for Amazon delivery drivers.

I have read several stories about Amazon contract drivers being worked half to death, no breaks, long days and constant pressure to deliver more. Several of these stories have been posted in HN. (Just Google "Ycombinator Amazon drivers overworked").

It is possible that the Whole Foods delivery contracts are more lucrative but to imply that due to the recession drivers are desperate to get work doesn't jive.


The articles I'm reading from that Google search refer to drivers who are FTEs or have set contracts (eg 10-hour shifts with quotas).

By contrast, this article is talking about the just-in-time, on-the-fly gig-work market, like lyft and uber's labor markets. This is pretty clear from the fact that it's not really possible for an employer to overwork a gig worker without the gig worker's enthusiastic consent, since they explicitly choose each marginal contract they do (in fact, the theme of gig worker complaints in this area is usually against the restrictions placed on consecutive hours worked).


There's always slack in the system though. E.g. because of the randomness of when orders are ready let's say there's an average 15 minute wait for all the drivers, when things are running at full capacity.

Well if you use this then you get, say, 2 minute waits, and since you're paid per-delivery, you make a bit more each day -- maybe you make 25% more deliveries.

On the flip side, then drivers not using this might see their average waits grow to 20 or 25 or 30 min.

For Amazon it's all the same though.


We really are living in a William Gibson novel, aren't we?


Or Stephenson;

> You don't work harder because you're competing against some identical operation down the street. You work harder because everything is on the line. Your name, your honor, your family, your life. Those burger flippers might have a better life expectancy -- but what kind of life is it anyway, you have to ask yourself. That's why nobody, not even the Nipponese, can move pizzas faster than CosaNostra. The Deliverator is proud to wear the uniform, proud to drive the car, proud to march up the front walks of innumerable Burbclave homes, a grim vision in ninja black, a pizza on his shoulder, red LED digits blazing proud numbers into the night: 12:32 or 15:15 or the occasional 20:43.


That's exactly what I was thinking about. Snowcrash was a ridiculous (but thoroughly enjoyable) novel, but it feels less and less so every year.



maybe that's why he stopped writing sci-fi and started writing contemporary fiction


Last two novels decidedly sci-fi, just not very good.


One reason Flex contractors do this is to get around the requirements for being a driver, such as having a valid license or being authorized to work in the U.S., according to a person familiar with the matter. In such cases, someone who meets the requirements downloads the Flex app and is offered a route earning $18 an hour. He or she accepts the route and then pays someone else $10 an hour to do it, said the person, who requested anonymity to discuss a private matter.

https://fourhourworkweek.com/


Delivery gig arbitrage. Now how long before the cash flow from such operations is securitized and sold off? </sarcasm>


Amazon could do this under an innocuously-named subsidiary to reduce their effective hourly pay costs.


It might be a valid way around "sticky wages."

If one looks at the whole economy, some prices might be very flexible and others rigid. This will lead to the aggregate price level (which we can think of as an average of the individual prices) becoming "sluggish" or "sticky" in the sense that it does not respond to macroeconomic shocks as much as it would if all prices were flexible. The same idea can apply to nominal wages.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nominal_rigidity

If Amazon were to open a subsidiary for lower priced delivery services it might be able to maintain its workforce branding and add lower rungs to the wage ladder for the purpose of labor supply development. It might be politically inconvenient for a wealthy company like Amazon to have an acknowledged wage tiering system even if it makes sense on different levels. For example, Amazon probably cannot publicly hire people without workforce documentation--an unacknowledged arms-length subsidiary would be able to provide this service.


This is sort of like taxi medallions. Amazon could have people pay to become authorized drivers, and then the medallion holders could rent them out.


That innocuously named subsidiary could also team up with Uber and Lyft to skirt AB5 in California! Think of the monetization possibilities!


Sadly i would remove the sarcasm markup.


"Greenmail Goes Transnational" (alt history from 1990) https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1990-03-23-me-521-st...


A/R lines of credit have been a thing for a long time.


I really don't understand how Four Hour Workweek doesn't get a ton of scorn, it's suggested approach is just so innately dishonest.


Because the point of reading the book is not to exactly replicate his life. Only to be aware of ways of reducing the amount of work in your own life.

Edit: it's the same idea as when I boxed competitively, and watched a Manny Pacquiao documentary. I wasn't going to wake up at 3 am to drink a 1000 calorie shake or do a 1000 sit ups everyday. I wanted to get into the mindset of optimizing my training within the reasonable constraints of my student life.


Have you ever bought something, say software, to make some work task easier or better fit how you work?

For example, I've started using a fountain pen and really like it better than the pens at the office and use it for minor work tasks. Four Hour Work Week isn't different from that but presents an extreme.

The hyperbolic subcontracting seems like a pain in the neck to manage to me, but I appreciate the challenge to think of work in terms of those activities in which I can personally add value and those that I can source value. How much of the time do we miss opportunities to do things better by forgetting to take a moment and think out the build vs buy implications?


I think most people reading it don't realize this. I thought it was pretty obvious when I first read it that the odds of replicating what Tim did was very low. It's about as likely as those people who lucked out on some affiliate keyword and now making $500k+ a year with a static html page with affiliate links and consistently places in first place on google. Plenty of stories of this happening, even on HN


so matt drudge. a static html page with ads


Meh the 4 hour workweek is basically snake oil.

Even Tim's own product couldn't be reduced to 4 hours. "If only I didn't sell a nutritional product, I wouldn't be getting contacted so much."

Yes, and if my job was to fill out paperwork and never Engineer, I could do my work in 4 hours a week.

Heck even if I paid some engineer in india, I'd still need to review their work, including learning the technologies and data sheets. I'm not sure how managers deal with this, just hope for the best?


> I'm not sure how managers deal with this, just hope for the best?

Good managers do what you said earlier - learn the tech, study the sheets, talk to experts and build appropriate understanding and knowledge.

Bad managers deflect, blame, hide, etc


True, if a bit oversimplified. But cynically, as a manager (one of the former type, I like to think), if you're able to outsource your work, while maintaining the expected quality of work product, without breaking any security/compliance/governance rules...I'm not really sure I'd have a ton of heartburn.


Walk up to the phones and check to see if you can see any software running?

Wouldn't it be a prime target for cell phone theft?


Per the article, one person stands nearby


Then wouldn't they keep the phone in their pocket?


Yea that's a good question: a pocket wouldn't work, but I wonder why they couldn't just stand next to the store with a bag full of phones.


I would guess it's a combination of getting it closer to the store and improving cell signal.



This is why humans > AI.

The best laid plans of algorithms and men!


I thought I saw an app that would spoof a false location for a mobile device. That app would be more practical.


Sounds like the market is just self-optimising in a way? Obviously to the detriment of those left behind.


It would be self-optimizing if they were just waiting in Whole Foods parking lots, not hanging phones in trees. It's a case of optimizing for the metric, not the objective, by exploiting the divergence between the two. This is generally pretty distinct from a market self-optimizing.

The objective is "closest driver", the metric is "closest phone that connects with Amazon's servers", and the divergence is exploited by this multi-phone syncing/dispatch setup. (In this case, the divergence is unavoidable, short of unspoofable, unremovable microchipping of anyone who wants to pick up gig work)

Though it seems like a pretty easy fix: just lower the granularity of the location query.


Come on. .. someone who can do this can prolly get a better job in IT


Apparently they are using some third party app to accept orders.


"Amazon knows about it,” the driver said, “but does nothing.”

But why should they as long as from Amazon's perspective, the system is working?


I think they may have some reasons:

(1) PR. Right now because of COVID-19, the public is somewhat more attentive to stories about working conditions.

(2) Morale. Happier drivers probably perform better and have less turnover.

(3) Parking. If they incentivize drivers to get as close as possible to some arbitrary point, drivers could take parking spaces that should go to customers. Imposing unnecessary constraints often causes unforeseen consequences.

(4) App/site security. The article says drivers download (third-party) apps that monitor Amazon's sites. It's better to make most users feel like they don't need bot apps. Once they go looking for them, they may find apps that have additional features which are not so neutral. Also, it creates a small industry of developers who specialize in doing hacky things with Amazon's systems.

If I were them, I'd fix this if it's possible to do it without sacrificing other important things.


Efficiency.

If a driver has to spend 4 minutes of every hour doing stupid antics to get an order, and can earn $15/hour doing antics+delivering, then effectively $1/hour is going to pay for stupid antics, from Amazon's perspective.

Amazon would like to switch those 4 minutes from "doing stupid antics" to "doing deliveries" so that they can pay the same $15/hour but get a full hour of real work instead of only 56 minutes.


More concretely: Amazon's drivers (arguendo) don't care what they're getting paid $15/hour to do. If Amazon removes the incentive for antics, then it can pay 14/15 the per-delivery fee, and each driver can do 15/14 the deliveries and still make $15/hour.


[flagged]


Because those are regularly-enforced laws with significant penalties. You can bet that Amazon is going to operate within all regularly enforced laws that meaningfully impact their business.


Those laws only exist because people decided that slavery and child labour were bad things. We can decide that this kind of exploitation is bad too.

(In fact, the UK only finished paying reparations to slave-owners five years ago, 183 years after it was made illegal.)


> (In fact, the UK only finished paying reparations to slave-owners five years ago, 183 years after it was made illegal.)

That is actually slightly incorrect. The UK borrowed money to pay the reparations to the slave-owners at the time of the abolition. They just finished paying off the loan a few years ago. So the people they were paying all this time was not necessarily the slave owners, but the descendants of the creditors who had loaned the money.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slave_Compensation_Act_1837


Ah that’s really interesting, thanks for the link.


What would you have Amazon do? Tell the drivers they can't subcontract? Why can't they?


This feels more like practical magic/cargo culting than reality.

I’ve heard that if you say “bezos bezos bezos” while spinning around counter clockwise in front of an amazon locker your delivery tips will go up 5%


It seems that Amazon selects the closest driver. So they are hanging those phones in the closest tree to the warehouse, while the driver is not there.

Doesn't seem like a cargo cult.


>>>"while the driver is not there"

How many deliveries is a cell phone worth? I can't imagine a driver would leave a phone for anyone to take just to make 10 bucks or less.


The article suggests one person runs the set of phones, and sells their service to drivers. So I'd imagine that person has tuned the number of phones to be profitable. You can get older used cell phones for dirt cheap.


They may be wrong but that doesn't make it superstition or cargo cult (although it may seem satisfying to say it is). They have a decent hypothesis of how Amazon prioritizes and they are trying it out. Sounds creative and smart to me.


If your employment was entirely piece-work driven by "the algorithm", which is completely opaque and subject to change at any time, what other recourse do you have? They're basically trying to reverse engineer the weights of various inputs in Amazon's scheduling algorithm to try and have some control over their lives.


I think it is a perfectly natural and very human reaction. But that doesn’t make it any less in the realm of superstition.


It is not superstition if you have a valid theory of why it might be. I mean they don't claim the phones in the tree are charms that give good luck as a token sacrifice to Mammon.


It seems obviously fabricated that a pile of phones hang from a tree and not one person turns them off, smashes them, or takes them.


You reminded me of this old joke:

> Two economists walk down a road and they see a twenty dollar bill lying on the side-walk. One of them asks “is that a twenty dollar bill?” Then the other one answers “It can’t be, because someone would have picked it up already,” and they keep walking.


The drivers are sitting 10 feet away, they’re not just abandoning them.


The article described drivers as walking up and syncing to them to get a job, so they're not always sitting by the phones.


Seems like a trivial extension to the story that one person is sitting nearby keeping an eye on the phone. The advantage still holds, since all the other drivers in the group can spread out.


> to get a split-second jump on competing drivers.

Or it uses GPS and sees they are closer rather than the impossible.

I get reporters believe this fantastical stuff because they are not in IT and are somewhat more the Arts realm.

But they need a way to fix this, like a wiki. Or not. I guess stupid people believe it and click.

The core of the story is true somewhat, you do miss out on the idea leaving phones in strange places fools the GPS and you can use this to an advantage. Or why not just GPS spoof. Or is it using the wireless, so why not use a repeater?




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