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>I don't really understand this dismissing about "culture fit"

You should understand that what you wrote sounds like discrimination by age (and sex, "frat" means male), which is illegal - and for good reasons.

EDIT: specifically, the only way a 35-year-old is not a "culture fit" in "a small company run by 20-something whose only social life is their colleagues" is if that company is discriminating by age. I don't have better words to explain that being 20 is not "culture".




Is it? It's discrimination by things that correlate with age, sure, but many things do.


A rose by any other name is still a rose.

"I don't discriminate by age, only by gray hair!"

"I don't discriminate by sex, it's just that we have a no-birthing-kids culture!"

Um, no.



What if instead of discriminating by race, you don't hire people who live in mostly-black neighborhoods?


You hire based on university "prestige" instead.


Codes of law aren't software. It's not a loophole, it's just an overly naive interpretation of what the law says based on your layperson understanding and applying programmer logic to non-software.

If you explicitly don't accept applicants only from select neightborhoods that all just "happen to" be almost all-black, you're still discriminating by race and it's still obvious and obviously illegal. You'll just waste more of everyone's time in court.

Just look at sovereign citizens and their inane shenanigans like "I'm not driving, I'm traveling by car and therefore don't need a driver's license and can ignore speed limits".


The comment you are responding to is highlighting the ridiculousness of the comment above it.

However, everything you wrote does apply to the level-up comment.


Legally speaking, age discrimination can not exist if you are under 40. There is zero protection with respect to age discrimination prior to 40 years of age, and the younger you get, the more enthusiastically age discrimination is accepted. Get under 18 and discrimination based on age is fully supported and actively encouraged.


Culture is something you have a certain amount of control over. Age/sex/w/e isn't.


Exactly, and the way the parent didn't seem to fit into the 'culture' was by being older.

"Frathouse culture" is an euphemism for "group of mostly white young male people who exclude people who aren't like them" - because this is what fraternities literally are.

(Recall: by definition, fraternities are young, male, exclusive - and statistically, white).


It's not (only) statistically white, it is racism inherent in the language we use. A black fraternity is called a gang instead.


Black fraternities (well, historically black) do exist, both at HBCUs and at other colleges and universities. And one thing that's particularly notable is that historically black fraternities tend to be more public-service oriented than historically white fraternities, which are more purely social clubs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_African-American_frate...


I know they exist, and my comment was tongue in cheek, not to be taken literally.

But in every joke there is a core of truth. People use language to disparage minorities or downplay the transgressions of the majority all the time.

E.g. nationalist extremist violent acts are done by "lone wolfs" or "mentally ill" people while the exact same atrocities by other groups are done by "terrorists".


I’ve heard that lone wolf vs terrorist meme so many times, are there actually any studies on this, or even examples?

I’m also not sure if being a “mentally ill” mass murderer is much better than a “terrorist” mass murderer.


If you are not sure, consider the same notions without mass murder attached to them.

They are socially (and legally) in different leagues.

>are there actually any studies on this, or even examples?

Yes, there specifically are[1][2][3][4][...].

I'd suggest [1] as a start, and then Google is your friend.

[1]https://insight.kellogg.northwestern.edu/article/when-do-peo...

[2]https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2018-48477-001

[3]https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/03050629.2018.15...

[4]https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/06/18/...


The conclusion in 1 seems to be "These findings indicate that stereotypes are not the only force at work when someone is labeled either mentally ill or a terrorist.", which is highlighted in a large font. I thought you were arguing the opposite?

And in 2, the question they examine is "whether people with negative attitudes toward Muslims perceive Muslim mass shooters as less mentally ill than non-Muslim shooters". That seems like a very biased group to ask, to say the least...


Thanks for the links, I’ll have a look.

If you remove the “murder” part from terrorist you basically just have a disgruntled crackpot, but one with political motivations.

I know that I’d rather be a theoretical, non violent terrorist than just mentally ill.


An unsuccessful (victimless) terrorist is still a terrorist (e.g. someone who blows up a building, but nobody dies, or the bomb doesn't go off), not merely a disgruntled crackpot.

On the other hand, Osama bin Laden is a terrorist, but very far from being mentally ill. His Letter to America[1] clearly outlines the intent and consequence of his actions.

Terrorists are, by definition, a threat -- but mentally ill people are victims (of mental illness, of society, etc); one is fare more likely to feel sympathy for an ill person vs. someone who is deliberately inflicting terror (as a means to an end or otherwise).

Terrorists can be affiliated to a group, but 'mentally ill' is not a group.

And that's a part of the reason why the labels get attached. 'All ____ are terrorists' is a trope where many will easily fill the blank with <group du jour>. But that won't work with 'All _____ are mentally ill'. A mentally ill person is a one-off, an accident. We don't have to solve that problem because there is no systemic problem. It just happens. The best we could do is think how we could help those people, how we could catch them before they slip.

But terrorism, that's warfare, and we respond to warfare with warfare.

That's the connotation. If you are not seeing it - well, the articles discuss this. Overall it's a part of a greater pattern of how politics shapes language, and language shapes thinking. Orwell had it down back in the 50's [2], and not much has changed since.

[1]https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver

[2]https://www.orwell.ru/library/essays/politics/english/e_poli...


I do know the difference, I'm just not convinced that it is much worse to be politically motivated in your killing rather than just crazy.


Do some research there are plenty of black fraternities at any major university in the US.


> specifically, the only way a 35-year-old is not a "culture fit" in "a small company run by 20-something whose only social life is their colleagues" is if that company is discriminating by age.

So you, as a 35 year old, want to work in a company that has a 14 hour days, including at least one weekend work culture which is what created a nearly forced socialization with one's coworkers who are in their early twenties?

If so, I'm pretty sure you would be accepted in the open arms if you

a) take their kind of salary ( i.e. take a pay cut )

b) work the 14 hour days (i.e. take another pay cut )

c) tolerate their social quirks -- those that do not socialize with others outside their tiny world for 14 hours a day 6-7 days a week are going to be rejected by the randos they meet in random places, repeating the cycle.


I am not the person who wrote the post, BUT they didn't mention anything of the unusual working hours or a pay cut (that they wouldn't take).

And in any case, this is something that's discussed outright (hours) and while extending an offer (salary).

Socialization outside of working hours is nobody's business, and reaches into illegal land (I don't care if one doesn't socialize with old/black/other gender people; but making hiring decisions based on that is illegal).


Startups pay less money in fact significantly less than established companies. That is known.

Thirty five year olds rarely agree to work for the amount of money twenty year olds agree to work for. That is also known.

This means that a thirty five year old going to a startup of twenty year olds is going to take a paycut.

Startups push people to work more hours. Young people are OK with that because they do not have a social life apart from finding someone to have sex with and having sex with that person. That is also reasonably well known. That means their life is sleeping/working/having sex with people. Long hours at work by people who do not have anything else to do act as a filler. That's why startups that have lots of young people working in them tend to push long hours. If you are there just to get a paycheck then it would mean getting an effective pay cut.

> Socialization outside of working hours is nobody's business, and reaches into illegal land (I don't care if one doesn't socialize with old/black/other gender people; but making hiring decisions based on that is illegal).

If you are working 14 hour days with group of same people those are going to be people you would be socializing with. It is the case everywhere -- be that oil rigs, armed forces. It is a matter of proximity and logistics.


See, the parent applied for this job, and never wrote they they weren't ok with working in a startup.

That's all that matters, and everything else you wrote is an attempt to justify discrimination by age.

Please reconsider your views.




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