I would argue that if you're going to go the trouble of including a "Shout-outs" page, you should mention the company who's application you stole verbatim:
Well, if by "learn", you mean "extrapolate", "surmise", "conjecture" or "speculate". I don't think you can make such sweeping statements without knowing more.
I sit here with egg on my face as I reply to myself. davidw, you were absolutely right and I never saw it.
When I wrote, "What data could anyone possibly add that would change my thinking?" I never expected an answer. I just read the Crash Dev apology, and that's the data.
My apologies. Now I understand the difference between "learn" and "infer".
FWIW, I know one of the guys and he's a decent fellow-- he's sharp and has several exits under his belt. He drives a Prius and loves his family. He's not the anti-christ (or even the anti-PG). He spun up Seattle OpenCoffee a year back (before this venture was a twinkle in his eye), just to help the Seattle startup community.
I think this is probably a case of then launching this before they even had a web site up and getting buried in random solicitations. They probably tossed that up there just to start getting coherent submissions.
Actually, I don't think YC should mind. If they're not smart enough, or dedicated enough to think of a few due diligence questions on their own, would a really good startup want them on board as investors?
Another thing is trust -- would you trust a knock-off to have that much experience and insight, when you can verify via PG's essays the insight they'll bring to the table? Hard sell if you ask me.
Supposing you 1) dont' want to live in the Bay Area, or 2) weren't accepted to YC, or have some other issue with YC, having some other options isn't bad, even if they're not as good as the original.
I don't get the need people seem to have to put these YC clones down. Yes, copying the application is lame (we'll see if the guy responds), but having more options is a good thing. If your idea (YC) is any good, people will try and replicate it, and that's what we're seeing here. The early-stage-seed whatever area is not some kind of network-effect amped winner-takes-all market where PG needs to grow things at an insane pace to grab market share. Far from it, he does well by his funded companies to dedicate his time to them, and not worry if people copy his idea.
I'm not putting the idea itself down at all. In my other comment I saw the likelihood of these types of investment companies increasing since YC proved the concept viable. This one here was blatant plagiarism though, which make it look like they didn't put the time into starting it properly, which means they're not likely to put due diligence into the companies they investing in. Trust is a big factor in accepting someone's money in exchange for part of your creation, and that doesn't instill it. Looks like they did apologize now though (haven't read it yet).
Local is a definite plus, having to move to Boston or Cali can be a deal-breaker for some I'm sure. I'm waiting to hear when a Canadian equivalent pops up myself ;)
They also had one other interesting idea I haven't seen before, which is that they ask companies to put up 5% to a pool that's shared among all the startups from that funding round. They figure that will encourage more collaboration and help, since everyone wins a little when anyone in the group wins. That was in their FAQ. I wonder how that will turn out for people in practice.
hey guys, chill out. Is the application the same as YC? (It is not currently posted on YC, so I don't know).
Other than the unattributed copying of the YC application... This seems like a totally different deal. He's not just giving a tiny bit of money to fresh college grads and making you move to San Jose for 3 months, it looks like it is going to be an actual co-op where each group accepted gets part of the pie from everyone else, and its not only limited to 10k. I live in Seattle and have 2 little kids, so I can't exactly do the YC thing, so I'm actually kind of fired up about this idea. I've read about the two founders of this group so it seems legit.
Well, since I didn't apply to YC, I didn't know the application... and the current app is gone from the YC site. But, here's a previous YC app:
http://ycombinator.com/s7app.txt
It is a bit disturbing that he took everything exactly... even the parenthetic remarks which make him sound like PG.
But, other than that glaring trust-killer, it does seem pretty cool to have an alternative to YC, which is just not feasible for me.
Well, his linkedin.com profile has about 400 connections, and I've got about 5 or 6 people linking us, so I know he is a real person who has real connections and real startups. Judy's Book had a huge following, and I have seen him in the local paper here and there.
But, it is definitely concerning. I wrote him an email just now and gave him the link to this thread. If he writes me back I'll let you all know.
Calm down. This is precisely how industries standardize. No one thought it was "sickening" when search engines pages started to imitate each other's blue title + grey descr + green url design. It was just an obviously good idea.
My first reaction was also, "hey plagiarism". But then again, on second thought, it'd be nice to have one application form to fill out, and then you just send them to different programs.
Before the days of standardized applications forms for colleges, it was a pain in the ass to fill out the same types of questions. I think it's rather lazy of them. However, since they're all going for startups, it's rather likely they'd ask a set of basic questions. It might do to have some sort of standarized basic set of questions, and then tack on one or two specific questions for that particular program.
I think there's a lot to be said for standardization, as you say. Founders who are just getting started have little enough time as it is, without having to come up with just slightly different answers to just slightly different questions. If that's their reasoning, they probably should have mentioned it, though.
There are plenty of me-too's borrowing from YC's model in an attempt to clone it. This company just happens to take the additional step of stealing from the YC application.
It's shady but it goes on. Be glad some light was shed on this particular misuse and skip these guys if you don't agree with their actions.
They won't hurt YC's brand and they won't injure the value of the YC companies. This type of thing -- whether an act of theft, laziness, or both -- only hurts the offender. Just looks at some of the other comments in this thread.
I'm with aristus... this isn't anything to get excited about.
Calm down. This is precisely how industries standardize. No one thought it was "sickening" when search engines pages started to imitate each other's blue title + grey descr + green url design. It was just an obviously good idea.
what I don't understand is that why these people don't even try just changing around the wording at least just by a little bit... are they that uncreative and lazy? or at least (as brett mentions) give credit where it's due
becasue this is exactly what they intended to do. Have the entire YC community talk about it and cr8 some interest about their program. It seems to work.
I once had a philosophy professor who liked being provocative. He was a sort of evangelical atheist. He gave a talk entitled, "Is Belief In God Immoral Or Merely Irrational?"
That (unethical or merely incompetent?) is the sort of interesting debate they've created about themselves.
These all seem so blatant at this point, but if the trend is moving towards early-stage/micro-investments like this, then most likely we'll be seeing lots more where this came from.
But when YC has all the cred which serves to give a nice profile boost to YC-funded startups, what can these others offer that amounts to the same thing? There's the community, experience and hookups with further funding opportunities, but these knock-offs just seem like they're lacking in comparison to the full value proposition YC offers. I wonder how they can compensate for that...
Again, I don't understand the super-reactionary responses here every time that there's something based on YC. By the YC founders own assessments they can't accommodate all of the good ideas that they're receiving.
And what of this, "Well, they're going to suck..." Do you think YC was perfect right off of the bat? Really? Sure, the copy-cats will be rough at first, then they'll, like most ventures, find ways to differentiate themselves and do their thing or die.
Or is the big objection that they copy-and-pasted the form? Other than very minor copyright infringement, which I'm sure they'd rectify if asked, it's obvious that they just went live. I can think of dumber ideas than copying your role-model as a place-holder until you have time to rewrite the form.
It's about making yourself look like a total asshat by copying someone else's writing verbatim and passing it off as your own.
> which I'm sure they'd rectify if asked,
"If you have to ask..."
> then they'll, like most ventures, find ways to differentiate themselves and do their thing or die.
There's a YC copycat in India that differentiates itself by posting armed guards to keep you in your office until midnight. And not let you sleep. Seriously.
> It's about making yourself look like a total asshat by copying someone else's writing verbatim and passing it off as your own.
There's a famous line by Igor Stravinsky. "Good composers borrow. Great composers steal."
If you're working on something, and you see someone else that's got part of it righ, by all means copy them!
I don't mean plagiarize them, but emulate what they're doing and figure out the parts that you're good at. If you read through what this co-op is about there's some interesting stuff there. They're trying to get people in Seattle for a year, are offering more funding and trying to build integration between the companies they're investing in. This is a good thing. Ask them to reword their questions if you must, but cheer these people on! Comparing this the Indian proposal from a little while back is just silly.
> I don't mean plagiarize them, but emulate what they're doing and figure out the parts that you're good at.
They DID plagiarize. Nobody's objecting to other seed investors, just the plagiarizing.
What they SHOULD have done is asked YC for permission to use their application, then said "we are using YC's application with their agreement in order to make things easier for applicants".
the site has since been amended to indicate that it was a joke.
http://www.ciieindia.org/?page_id=93
"We don't want you to go to your accommodation before 12 midnight - so we provide you mattresses near your workspace for resting. There's anyways a security guard outside your work-area - so you don't get to leave the office before 12 midnight and you don't get to sleep in the office. Attendance happens at 9:30 am every morning. Sundays are off if you have met your weekly goals!
"(The team has tried to be funny with having framed the above rules - obviously none of these rules are for real. It was a failed attempt to be humorous, which unfortunately not a lot of people understood :(. However, guys/gals with less than average IQ and humor - who fail to understand the humor in the above para may not kindly apply. Being fun-loving and sharp are pre-requisites!!)"
> who fail to understand the humor in the above para may not kindly apply.
I don't know why writing about establishing some kind of sweatshop in a poverty-stricken country would be seen as funny. There are a lot of places that have conditions like that, no joke.
The hackers they'd like to attract all know about YC. Most probably knew about it long before they did. A good many probably have the YC application memorized. To make a verbatim knock-off and pretend you didn't is just so... inept. Certainly ineptitude is among the leading qualities I look for in an investor, how about you?
To anyone who knows the first thing about hackers, it's obvious how to do this: give full credit to YC, praise YC to the skies, point out that not everyone is suited to YC and argue that there's room for more than one. Differentiate yourself by being Seattle-focused or whatever.
Does anyone else find this sickening? I'd be unable to plagarise in a professional setting even if I knew 100% that I wouldn't get caught. I'd feel way too slimy afterwards to even consider it. What ever happened to taking pride in your work?
Add in to that the absolute certainty of getting caught on the internet (hell, you can automate the process), I'm just amazed that people still do it. I just don't understand their thinking at all.
He uses the phrase "modeled after", which is pretty light. They lifted most questions verbatim, removed the references to boston and News.YC (usernames, etc), and shuffled order on a question or two.
I'm a little iffy on whether I feel this is terribly unethical-- an application is not really a creative work. I do think it shows a lack of creativity! I can think of 2 or 3 questions that I'd add/adjust if I was spinning up an early stage outfit.
I agree it was a lapse in judgement - both the lifting and the lack of attribution. However, in the grand scheme of things it's not that huge a deal, and the important thing for me is that he is correcting the problem right away as soon as possible after being informed of the criticism.
YC is a great idea, Founder's co-op is the proof. Honesty dictates that they mention YC as their source of idea.
This is another opportunity for startups to get seed and backing. Coaching may not be as YCs, but hey why not try, apply!!!!
I know this is off-topic, but isn't asking for the applicants' ages illegal, as it can be used as a basis for discrimination? -- in the same way that asking if the applicants have children would probably be illegal.
I find it dubious not only for the massive plagiarism (even the word limit!) but in that they seem to lack the l33t skills needed to make an HTML form submission page.
I think having YC in your corner is a boost; these guys look like they'd HURT your chances. Why would you want people who are unoriginal and unscrupulous dragging you down?
I think that was the idea Techstars had. Since they got away with it outside of this community, I can see why other new microseed funds want to keep using the same application.
http://www.founderscoop.com/shout-outs.php