> We have too many people thinking it's okay to discredit scientists and scholars because they don't understand how research works.
And a similar number of people who elevate science to the level of religion, marching in its name and developing a brand of hero worship for scientists when they too know nothing at all about the scientific process. Both are forms of anti-intellectualism that are growing in our polarized political environment.
"A similar number of people" developing a brand of hero worship for scientists? Maybe I'm hugely biased but that doesn't really mirror what I see online and elsewhere.
Are you telling me that for every climate change denier, for every anti-vaxxer, for every creationist, for every chemtrail/tap water/moon landing/flat earth conspiracy theorist there's a rabid scientist who elevates the current scientific consensus to the level of religion?
The "March for Science" that happened earlier this year had estimated attendance of 1.07 million.
Now go to Google Images and search for "March for Science". Nearly every sign I see is either political in nature, elevating science to a level of religion/infallibility, or casting science as a fashion/meme ("Scientific is the new chic", "Science isn't wrong", "In science we trust").
I'm not convinced, I haven't followed that particular event closely but as far as I know it was mostly about opposing the anti-science views of Trump and his administration. Given that he said multiple times that global warming was a chinese conspiracy I'm not sure this reaction is particularly extreme or uncalled for, regardless of your opinion on the topic. Using this to say that this million of people participating are adepts of scientism is a bit of a stretch IMO.
Using the same logic I could say that the 62+ millions of Americans who voted for Trump are climate change deniers but I don't think that would be fair either.
> opposing the anti-science views of Trump and his administration
> I'm not sure this reaction is particularly extreme or uncalled for
But opposition can easily veer into defining, and then rigorously defending, a 'pro-scientific' dogma that actually ends up opposing new, legitimate research.
As a complete hypothetical, what if an esteemed climate scientist discovers evidence that global temperature increase estimates actually are too high by, say, a factor of 2? Will people take that evidence seriously, or write it off as 'climate change denial'?
Similar to Twitter, it's hard to nuance a complex thought on a garish protest sign. With the example of a sign reading "Sciences isn't wrong", that's not literally a statement of science's infallibility, it's just something some guy wrote on a sign. If you had a conversation with the individual I'm sure they would espouse to you what they meant with their sign.
It feels like an act of willful ignorance to interpret the few words or catchy phrase on a protest sign and ascribe them as that person's core beliefs.
That's part of the problem now though, there's no room for nuance. You almost HAVE to take an extreme position in order to be heard.
For instance, the GP mentioned anti-vaxxers. There are many different kinds of "alternative" stances on vaccinations, and only one (very) extreme position is "vaccines cause autism". But if you mention anything about vaccines that isn't 100% of vaccines are amazing 100% of the time you are considered an "anti-vaxxer", lumped in with the vaccines-cause-autism crazies.
Consider: I haven't made a judgement on vaccines in this comment, yet I guarantee you have a feeling/judgement about what you think I believe. Like I said, no room for nuance.
You're not presenting your opinion on the subject of vaccines though, you're presenting your opinion on the subject of having opinions about vaccines. Give me your nuanced thoughts on vaccines if you want to have a productive discussion with someone.
I think we're seeing a completely different trend, spurred on by social media and the ability for people to broadcast their own messages/opinions about a topic, and that is, everyone has a loud, and often spurious, opinion about everything. This is something that's always been true, social media is just amplifying this aspect of human nature.
It's so wild how certain topics will trigger a response. Your comment was about nuance, and I replied with (what was meant to be) a mostly complimentary comment, expanding on that topic. But you latched on to the vaccine part of it that was meant only as an example. Something about that subject really gets people's blood pressure up; I notice my comment above was downvoted as I predicted - although not by you, as far as I could tell. (FWIW a nuanced discussion about vaccines isn't germane to this topic, so I will respectfully pass on that.)
Anyway, I think you're right about social media amplifying human nature, but I don't think it's about opinions. I think most people don't really care too deeply about most things -- one major reason why voting turnouts are so low! Sure, they care about one or two things passionately, but they're mostly moderate on most things. More universally though, people care about attention. They love attention. It's wired into our DNA; babies do everything they can for attention, because attention is survival.
But it turns out that having moderate views isn't really all that interesting. It doesn't demand attention the way having (or representing to have) extreme views does. So are the extreme views genuine, or just a show for attention?
My problem with your previous comment is that while on the surface it's perfectly reasonable, it's also unsubstantial and the type of fluff you hear as an introduction to a flat earther youtube video. The good old "show both sides of the issue" that's used by all fringe theorists ever to get people to discuss their side of the story.
Of course that's a complete strawman on my part here, you didn't say any of this. But consider this for instance:
> For instance, the GP mentioned young earthers. There are many different kinds of "alternative" stances on the age of the earth, and only one (very) extreme position is "earth is 6000 years old". But if you mention anything about the age of the earth that isn't exactly *the universe is 13.8 billion years old and the earth was formed around 4.5 billion years ago" you are considered a "young earther", lumped in with the creationist crazies.
I could do the same thing about flat earth or, if I wanted to heat up the discussion even more, the holocaust.
You can and you should question everything all the time, but at some point we have to reach a consensus and move on. We can't spend all of our time proving again and again and again that the earth is round, that Earth is not 10000 years old and that vaccines do not cause autism. If new evidence surfaces it should be reconsidered of course but the case for the anti-vaxxers is pretty weak as far as I can tell.
Not sure if memes are diagnostic here. Even a sane moment these days has to resort to low quality clickbaity stuff if they want to get social media (or real life) traction.
I've seen this form of scientism playing out frequently on Reddit and other Internet forums lately. Discussion will be about some piece of controversial research, e.g. GMOs or vaccines. People who want to discuss the merits of the research are shouted down by what I can only describe as 'science fanbois' -- anything that is 'against science' must be wrong.
They're missing the inherent tension in science between a received body of knowledge and the skepticism it takes to produce new knowledge.
>Discussion will be about some piece of controversial research, e.g. GMOs or vaccines. People who want to discuss the merits of the research are shouted down by what I can only describe as 'science fanbois' -- anything that is 'against science' must be wrong.
Discussions on reddit (and all sorts of other social platforms) are being influenced and manipulated by people who are being paid to do so, and anyone who denies that at this point is delusional.
Source: I know people who run firms that provide this service.
> Some piece of controversial research, e.g. GMOs or vaccines
Who or what determines what is controversial?
To me, vaccines are not controversial at all. You can pick and choose specific ones to argue about, but the concept of vaccines is literally proven, beyond a doubt.
As for GMOs, there's a lot more room but even still, the fundamentals are nothing controversial. This is also proven in pretty much anything you can buy in a grocery store today.
Controversial literally just means that there's strong, polarizing disagreement. It's fairly well-defined, and vaccines definitely qualify. This doesn't mean that examining the actual positions of each side would lead you to conclude that they're of equal worth: it just describes the significant disagreement that exists. (As opposed to, say, the heliocentric model)
I don't think it's really about science, it's more about reddit. You'll find the same thing on any discussion on any somewhat popular subreddit regardless of the subject. There's almost always a reddit hivemind sanctioned Good Answer to any issue and if you stray away from the Good Path you'll get buried in downvotes, regardless of how much effort you put into arguing your point. Conversely if you make a completely useless one-liner comment agreeing with the Good Answer then you'll be showered with upvotes and propelled to the top of the page.
Upvote/downvotes are de-facto agree/disagree buttons on reddit. As a forum it's completely useless to discuss anything beyond cat pictures and funny gifs.
HN isn't all that different, so it's probably about more than just reddit.
For example, you can post the same remarks criticizing functional programming in a post about C# or Java and get upvotes, while the same post in a Haskell discussion will be downvoted. You can try the experiment yourself to verify it.
This applies to companies as well - you will be upvoted for pro-Microsoft or anti-Google posts in a news topic about Microsoft, and the reverse in a news topic about Google. This is because people who use Microsoft products will be very interested in Microsoft news, but not interested enough in Google news to go and downvote opinions they disagree with there.
> For example, you can post the same remarks criticizing functional programming in a post about C# or Java and get upvotes, while the same post in a Haskell discussion will be downvoted.
It's simply unreasonsble to think that the value of a comment is independent of its context.
Certainly, although it's clear that the largest part of the context would be the audience that the comment is exposed to. And it also shows that the upvote and downvote feature is not used correctly here either - it's used to promote or hide comments that the viewer agrees or disagrees with.
Just the same as Reddit. It's a deeper issue than just being 'reddit', and it's more about online discussion in general.
It's significantly better in my experience. It's not perfect but you can actually have a plurality of opinions on a subject. I think the fact that the community is tighter and that low karma accounts can't actually downvote help massively. Also no visible scores which reduces the "gaming" aspect. I kind of wish HN would go a little further still and ration downvotes for everybody, it shouldn't be something you throw willy-nilly.
That's true. Maybe the issue is that when there's only a 'down' and an 'up' button, people infer everything into it. Maybe we should have an 'up' button for interesting posts, a 'flag' button for posts that don't add to the discussion, and 'agree' and 'disagree' buttons to make it clear that it's a different thing from upvoting a comment.
Then people could turn on or off some way to see which posts are heavily agreed or disagreed with without downvoting interesting posts just because you disagree. You could even have a system where you mark people you respect and then only see which posts they agreed with to get a more personal feel? Might be an interesting discussion board idea to pursue.
It's always fascinating to me how little some of these people understand science. There was a forum I frequented where there was a prolific "scientism" poster, and pretty much every time several of the working scientists on the site, myself included, were like "Um...that's not how this works."
I was referring to the work one has to go through to get your research recognized in the scientific community, for example. I'm not "worshipping" science.
I had in mind people who go on planes to disprove the earth being round, who believe crystals have actual healing powers, or people who refuse proven cancer treatment.
Say what? I'd say a "propper scientist" will know about the "scientific process" pretty well.
Sure, there are plenty of pseudo scientists out there that promote their political or economic agendas, but you can't discredit all science because of that.
Right now "hard" science is the best way to explain things around us and the universe. Sure, often it is wrong as new science gets discovered, but that's how human knowledge evolves.
As for the "soft" sciences (anything social/psyc, etc), that's a completely different matter. They are more prone to trends, fads and more personal biases, hence I would put them in a different category.
> They are more prone to trends, fads and more personal biases
This is not necessarily true, and I would urge caution when making such generalizations. There is junk social science and there is also plenty of junk "hard" science. Examples of fake data, political and personal biases interfering with the scientific method, occur in all fields. Some "fads" eventually become accepted fact. It took 100 years before plate tectonics was accepted by the majority of the scientific community, there are many such examples.
Don't universally discount social science: it is just as important as physical science. We actually need more social scientists to help understand the reasons behind anti-science movements in the first place, and to help legitimize science as a process, critial thinking, and to debunk illogical arguments.
And if social scientists want to "help legitimize science as a process, critial thinking, and to debunk illogical arguments.", they should start with fixing their own reproducibility crisis and p-hacking crisis before instructing other people on science as a process.
I completely side with Gelman on this issue, but you can't point to this one case to dismiss all of social science. One can find examples of p-hacking, irreproducible research, and fabricated data in any field, but the existence of such does not invalidate the entire discipline.
I am merely cautioning against over generalization that just because there are some high profile examples of bad social science, there is still a lot of very good social science happening and it would be a shame to ignore it.
That was poor wording. It was in reference to the science "cheerleaders" who, from my own observations, are often equally as clueless about science as there anti-science counterparts.
One thing I noticed going to a major conference in my academic field last year (IDWeek for those interested). Each and every one of the plenary speakers had some reference in their talks that betrayed a classic liberal arts education.
The titans of a scientific field still valued arts, and history, and culture. And derived value from it.
Hell, I'm a working scientist and one of the most valuable classes I ever had for thinking about the world was a feminist art history class.
And a similar number of people who elevate science to the level of religion, marching in its name and developing a brand of hero worship for scientists when they too know nothing at all about the scientific process. Both are forms of anti-intellectualism that are growing in our polarized political environment.