You have the right to your own feelings, and I agree that the title may be off putting. The audience for the article is rust core contributors and rust fans, and they're a very informal bunch. If rusters are like similar communities I know, talking about poop makes a blog post more likely to spread.
EDIT: I do not want to argue with Dewey2, so I'm putting this here: the women in the rust community that feel uncomfortable when they are addressed as "guys" have every right to feel that way, and I commend the rust community on making that stand.
There's nothing to suggest all other rust devs like this way of presenting it. I don't. I agree it's off-putting even if the issue itself is interesting.
Since you're so interested in my activity here[1], you may notice that my very first, apparently terrible and flame-inducing post was about me pointing out that an article spelled someone's name wrong[2], modulo transliteration. Now you might argue that I was wrong, but do you really think that was such a terrible, unproductive and antagonistic post? The next mass of downvotes came when I replied sarcastically to someone who wrote that my concerns/arguments were "stupid" and not worthwhile. That provocative post towards me was, of course, not downvoted. My follow-up to my original, downvoted, post was at first well-recieved[3], but then creeped down to 1 again for some reason.
I'm not a victim by any means, and I'm sometimes an asshole. But maybe you should stop taking Karma at face value and stop believing that this community is beyond reproach. If you want to go through my history - which on this account is quite short - at least do it better.
[1] And your profile says nothing about you being a mod.
> Your current posting style didn't work for your last account. It doesn't seem to be working for this account.
Yes, I was an asshole on my "Dewie" account, and recently on Dewie2 as well. But go over the posts I presented again - was I really being an asshole? Or did I just have opinions and priorities that people were in such disagreement with that they chose to use the "I don't like this - Downvote!"-artillery? Come on. At least address my specific points when I go to the trouble of typing them out. Instead of just playing Dr. Phil.
> It doesn't seem to be working for this account.
Yes. Thanks for underlining that for the powers that be. Well, it's not like I was hiding so who am I to complain.
> Do you think this is working for you?
Clearly, my problem is being a glutton for punishment in that I keep coming back to this poisonous community. :) It's not like the assholes on this forum are helping me be less of an asshole. (And no, you're not one of the assholes, just speaking of a subset here.)
Because "guys" is gender discrimination? Give me a break. Might as well call ~everyone who speaks the Spanish language massive sexists while you're at it.
I guess it is if you're oversensitive to everything that might be construed as sexist, through any historical, cultural etc. link. Like some people are oversensitive about bodily functions.
Besides, some groups of people might be put off by such crass analogies. You don't want to exclude those people, do you Ygg2?
Yeah, no, the default male plural pronoun in other languages is a language feature. One doesn't feel like they're being called male when it's used. On the other hand "guys" sounds like you're being called, well, a guy (and English has singular they and many other constructs that can be used in its place).
Usage of "guys" makes many women feel they don't belong. It perpetuates ideas about programming being a boys club that shouldn't exist.
Poop jokes might make some people uncomfortable, but they're not as harmful as "guys".
Plus, if you read kibwen's comment below that, it's not something that's considered a serious offence, but you will be asked to stop. The same would probably go for excessive poop jokes in IRC or whatever.
(Also, it's an unofficial blog post. Not the same standards. There wouldn't be poop jokes on an official blog post, and there wouldn't be much of a ruckus if someone used "guys" in an unofficial one)
I dunno, I'll say "hi guys" to groups of women as well as mixed or male groups. I've also heard girls say "hi guys" to a mixed group.
I've also heard people say things like "hey up A" where A is in
["guys and gals", "guys and girls", "everyone", "mothafuckas", "nerds", "friends", "all you", "people", etc.]
Coming form a very formal understanding of language, I can see how it could be taken as a reference to only the men, but coming from my practical experience, "guys" has been used as a gender neutral way of referencing a group without issue.
Now that I think of it, this really is a context sensitive issue. For example, saying "hi guys" to a group of 100 with only one or two women in it might give some listeners the impression that there are no women, thus perpetuating the "boys club" view, whereas saying "hi guys" to an evenly mixed group might not give the listeners that impression.
> I guess the Rust community isn't so carefree and non-sensitive after all.
Carefree? Mostly. Non-sensitive? Pretty much the opposite. Rust community is extremely sensitive. The rules are lax, but they draw the line at making contributors uncomfortable.
In IRC, the poop jokes and calling people guys, would have the same chance of drawing ire, which isn't huge. The whole "guys" thing is just a smidge more likely to draw ire. However if you are insistent on either accounts expect to get ostracized.
> I guess they don't feel like they belong in any part of mixed gender society then, since it is so widespread.
Well, yes. It's not like women make on average less than their male peers.
-------------------
Let me show an abriged version of what usually happens in IRC.
Anon: Hi guys,
Mod: We prefer the term guys and gals :)
Anon: Hi guys and gals*
Anonhole: Hi guys
Mod: We prefer the term guys and gals :)
Anonhole: I know.
Mod: We have a term of conduct, please read it.
Anonhole: I won't
Mod: *ban* Anonhole
While it is certainly informal to say "guys," I have heard both men and women use it in a definitely gender-neutral sense for my entire life, including in workplaces, and informality is not impolite in an informal setting like an IRC channel. I wasn't sure if I was crazy here so I asked a couple of women I know and they were as surprised as I was. By contrast, nobody uses the word "gals" - it sounds incredibly awkward and lame. Perhaps the use of the word "guys" is regional, like "y'all" (sadly, it seems like English does not have any universally established pronoun for this). It's sad that you are proud of treating people who are new to Rust by permanently excluding people and labeling them as assholes for using idioms which are considered perfectly courteous and gender-neutral in many places. Given that, banning people just for using the word "guys" smacks of finding excuses to harass and ban people more than offering a welcoming community. If this is "what usually happens in IRC" then that might be a clue that there are dialect differences you aren't recognizing?
Insofar as you are representing the Rust community via HN, you've given an overwhelming impression that the Rust community is an unpleasant place where "outsiders" are totally unwelcome. As someone who considered adopting Rust prior to reading your post, that's a problem because with such an immature language I would eventually have to interact with that community and then I would apparently have to deal with people randomly nitpicking which dialect of English I learned and calling me an asshole. No thanks, life is too short.
I'm sorry I gave that impressions, but I'm not really member of Rust community. I'm just a guy writing Rust code and occasionally checking out the channel. I'm much more Java than Rust guy :P
Also you missed the point of that exchange, you are excluded from the Rust community, only if you act against Code of Conduct actively. The titular bad example was given a warning, he disregarded it several times and continued to behave against community wishes.
What do you expect happens once you act against what other members of the club urge you not to do? A single mistake/slip up isn't a problem. Repeated offense and disregard of CoC is.
Usually the custom is to greet each other with "Hi Rustaceans". It's gender neutral and has no negative connotation.
If this gives you impression of a treehouse filled with cultist, who am I to judge.
"Guys" is not gender neutral for everyone. You might find it that way, and I used to, but many women don't.
Re:IRC: You're conflating different things here. The IRC incedent was a sexual comment. Strict nono. "guys" is something that will be frowned upon. Sexual jokes are also a nono. Just today someone made a penis joke in IRC, and was similarly told to stop. Poop jokes -- childish, maybe, and certainly frowned on by some, but not considered harmful.
I don't see anything wrong with arbitrarily deciding. You're free to not play in the sandbox if you don't like the rules. The community likes those rules. And fwiw the rules don't disallow "guys". Again, you'll just be asked politely to not do that.
As I understand, "guys" wasn't a huge problem but the discussion that followed. It got ugly quick. I'm pretty sure even Spanish has the variant of "guys and gals".
What I want is besides the point. It's a club. It has rules. I'm Ok with them.
I usually go with "Hi peeps!" (Yes, I imagine everyone on Rust IRC is a talking marshfellow).
Spanish nouns have two genders, and a corresponding plural for a noun of that genders. When you have a mixed group, both chicos (boys) and chicas (girls) you use the masuline plural (chicos).
I've also noticed that male genitalia are used to mean something positive (es la polla, tener cojones)
and female genitalia are generally used to be negative (un coñazo, coño)
You're okay with the rules because you live in the clubhouse. The fact that you are pulling up the ladder to keep other people out unless they roll over and pee themselves to acknowledge your dominance speaks volumes about what life is like inside the clubhouse.
Nope. I'm just a guy passing through that knows the customs and didn't enter the house with his shoes on (well, there was that one time). Rust community in my experience only ever censored people that were actively rude for a long time - I'm talking months if not years.
Anyway, if Rust community did allow such transgressions, people would be up in arms because they are promoting Linus brand of verbal abuse...
EDIT: I do not want to argue with Dewey2, so I'm putting this here: the women in the rust community that feel uncomfortable when they are addressed as "guys" have every right to feel that way, and I commend the rust community on making that stand.