This is how I feel. I don't watch TV for hours like I did as a child. What I do now is worse; stay in doors programming, browsing the web aimlessly, or staring at the ceiling. I don't blame my internet lifestyle for this really, but I literally don't know what else to do and the internet is so accommodating to me being a shut-in. I know I'm wasting my life but I don't know how to stop.
San Francisco is a beautiful city but it is wasted on me and I feel like I should feel guilty for that. I don't deserve this nice city; it belongs to creative people.
Trying to leave the house to do anything interesting takes herculean efforts. I can't find joy or interest in anything beyond an intellectual level. Everyday sometimes feels like it's worse than the last.
I'm trapped in an un-ending present where I grow older but never grow as a person.
ps - anything you have to suggest is something i've heard already x10 and have or currently trying, such as therapy.
I took a look at your previous submissions and I think you've already heard the advice I'd give. If you haven't already, I think it might be useful to contact your doctor and at least rule out the possibility of depression.
Depression isn't just an attitude, it's an actual chemical imbalance. It's something that happens to all kinds of people and investigating it might lead you to a fix. I've had periods where I've felt that lack of joy or interest and I wondered why I even bothered, but I got some help and now in retrospect I can tell it was terrible to live like that. At least talk to a doctor and bring up the possibility.
Tons of people around you struggle with the same thing even while they look so awesome and successful, especially if you're in the valley. I know it feels like you're totally alone but you're really not. At least investigate that your brain chemistry might be a little out of sorts.
While depression is a real issue, I think people suffer from all the Skinner box reward cycles built into games / apps now days. Cook dinner takes time and some effort, clicking delver now and soon food just shows up. Things that lack that level of reinforcement just seem less interesting.
Sure, I could physically travel to interesting places or just click around on Google maps. The joy might not be as great as actually seeing the same thing in person, but places are so much easier to get to online.
A physical firing range is seriously intense, but messing around in a FPS does not involve leaving the house and it takes so much less skill. Not to mention something like guitar hero vs. an actual guitar.
Tough love doesn't work here. Logic doesn't penetrate. Worse, I worry you could come across as trivializing addiction, depression and other mental health issues.
When in doubt seek help. That is what we need to encourage. And I know first hand how hard it is to seek help and keep seeking it, but the very act can be its own little bit of healing.
No, I think parent is exactly right. I feel similar to the OP, but I know for sure it's not a depression. And I think I suffer the same problem the parent described. The real world just seems so messy and complicated compared to virtual worlds.
You may call it a mental health issue, but it is neither addiction nor depression; if anything, it's just not being addicted to real world enough.
How do you know it is not depression? This is a very personal topic, but I never thought of myself as depressed until I fell into a hole so deep that I had to search for medical help (and then I still thought about EVERYTHING but depression: High-functional autism, ADHD, whatever ..) - diagnosis and therapy helped me tremendously and looking back there would've been zero chance for me to recognize that I was suffering from depression on my own. It's one of the hallmarks of depression to rationalize it away "don't be such a wuzz ... all is fine, you are lazy, stop doing that", so it's very risky to say "I know for sure it's not a depression" - you are probably the worst judge for that (just to make this clear: It's your life, if you feel all is fine and you just don't want to go out then it is fine, enjoy your life - my comment is only intended as a second perspective on a real serious issue).
Depression has certain criteria, for example things like you don't enjoy anything, you feel tired all the time, you consider that you shouldn't live, and so on. I had a mild depression, and I know this is not it. I am happy, I like to meet people from time to time, etc.
It's not addiction either - I spend my days on the Internet (or in computer games) a lot, but if I had to spend a week without it, it wouldn't be a problem. I don't have to be connected 24x7 either. I also sometimes abandon the game for no reason.
It's really just you don't feel so motivated by the things in the real world compared to virtual possibilities. Let me reiterate, I think parent was spot on when he talked about the "artificial Skinner box of instant rewards", and I don't think there is a psychiatric category describing this.
It's not a mental disorder, just like overeating (and being overweight due to that) isn't (usually) a disorder. But yeah, it may be a mental health issue. It's mentally unhealthy behavior, just like eating too much is unhealthy.
I wish more people knew this. The entire "chemical imbalance" shtick is a myth. If you are ever told this, your response should be, "What chemical? What level am I at? What level should I be at?".. But, alas, there is no blood test, or any other kind of test, which can yet determine this. That's not science.
If depression caused by terrible things happening, or loneliness, that is not also outside of your control?
I've had depressed periods, but it was completely understandable given the situation I was in.
I think the whole "chemical imbalance" is an easy fix, rather than trying to fix society, or the situation they are in. It's quick and easy to give pills rather than fix a life.
Now i'm sure they're are actual medical causes for depression, but I think its overused.
Obviously there is depression caused by events, that type is "easy" to fix because (usually) you can fix the external events, or at least talk about them and come to terms with them.
But there is also depression caused by nothing whatsoever. Nothing detectable anyway.
People tend not to believe it can be possible, until they experience it (personally or by talking to someone who is experiencing it).
Talking about it (therapy) does nothing, because there is nothing bad happening to talk about. The person is just depressed for no reason at all, it's like someone pressed a "be depressed" switch in their brain. The person is aware of it, wants it to stop, and has no control over it at all, and no ability to change it.
It's that type that they call "chemical imbalance". The chemical imbalance part is nonsense of course, but the existence of this type of depression is not.
> but I think its overused.
In TV commercials, yes, I agree. But in real life? No, I don't think it's overused.
I think its overused, because its exactly that type of depression they tried put on me.
When in reality I was lonely, didn't have much opportunity to socialise etc.
It was only fixed when I got out that situation, basically by chance by getting a introduction into an accepting social circle. I am now very happy.
The highest sucide rates are basically in young men, basically because how society treats them. I don't think its because young men are more prone to chemical imbalances, compared to women or older people. Its because its that stage in life, when men are literally lonely because of the transition from college to work and you can end up isolated and alone.
I don't know who Robert Sapolsky is, I admit my ignorance, but you shouldn't believe people just because they are people. You should believe peer reviewed studies instead, regardless of who writes them.
Just saying. Claiming that Robert Sapolsky himself (whoever that is) is more correct than the post you are replying to, without providing citations to (peer reviewed and accepted) studies is nonsensical.
For example, there's no blood test for autism. There's no blood test for PTSD. But my best friend's brother took years to talk to me, and sometimes still goes into rages; one of my partners would wake up in the middle of the night convinced I was trying to kill her.
Brains, minds, reinforcement learning systems, are complicated. By entirely abstract mechanisms they can be rewired to beautiful and terrible extremes. I very much doubt that the trauma that induces PTSD depends on any pre-existing biological state to allow PTSD to take hold, nor does PTSD necessarily induce some biological state (other than the biological brain-configuration that it is obviously implemented in). PTSD seems to be the best example of the human mind's ability to learn being exploited in the same way a buffer overflow exploits a browser. Obviously something is there; it's impossible to see someone flashback and deny the condition exists; but will there ever be a blood test for PTSD, or any diagnostic test more sophisticated than something like the DSM?
Psychology is not an easy science. Like physics, it depends on reverse-engineering the rules to a complex system, but that system is the human mind, and unlike physics, which exists only at a single level, to understand the mind, we have to cross levels of abstraction, much like it would be utterly futile to try to understand a program by recording the patterns it activated on the silicon of a CPU. And worse, everybody thinks they're an expert, because everyone has N years of experience dealing with human minds.
It's easy to think that any science should have a nice, clean, reductionist, petri-dish and blood-test approach. But the universe is under no obligation to make things easy. In a sense, psychology is the hardest science, because it is simply so difficult to cross these abstraction boundaries easily.
Yes, the point of my post was not to argue for the serotonin hypothesis of depression. If you think that, might I suggest that you missed my point, and you should perhaps reread with an eye towards absorbing novel information and viewpoints rather than trying to classify literally everything as either on a FOR or AGAINST side in a binary argument?
You were arguing that the absence of a blood test doesn't necessarily undermine chemical imbalance theories because of the complexity of the systems involved.
Yeah. I've experienced the exact same feeling, and had points in my life where I didn't leave my house for months on end. It was depression that was the cause; CBT, anti-depressants (and exercise soon after) helped fix that and now it's no longer a struggle.
Same here. Live in a beautiful city, cool friends, lovely girlfriend. Plenty of things exist here of which I can objectively say they're awesome, and in many things I'm genuinely interested, and so I avidly read and follow the news, whether it's social topics, economics, politics, tech etc. Yet I hold very little interest in experiencing anything personally.
If I had to describe it succinctly; I've become a dedicated spectator, but no longer wish to participate.
It's pretty ridiculous and something very strongly tells me it's the wrong way to live life, and I'd love for that to change. But the passion just isn't there to get involved anymore for even the simplest things like taking a walk outside. Again, as a spectator it's great. It's not as if I'm disinterested or don't like to hear from friends if they call me or want to visit. But calling them, or visiting them, somehow it's too big of a step.
As it's only been like this for a few years I can see how ridiculous all of this is. It's like I got the lazy syndrome: still care, but not enough to act on it. Yet it's not really laziness as I never watch TV or sit on the couch or sleep all day or get no work done... It's something else but I can't quite put my finger on it. I wish I could take some kind of hormone injection and rediscover my lost motivation for life.
Similarish postscript as you btw. Proper food, sleep, exercise, meditation, social, iteration etc, already covered stuff like that, but I'm open to new ideas.
This is still me, in so many things. On an intellectual level, there are things I want to do that I know I would enjoy, and that would make my life better. On an emotional level, I simply lack the motivation to start engaging in them.
What's helping me is the concept of precommitment.
I have a simple system. It started as a simple weekly wager with a coworker: Every Friday, have a plan for your weekend. Complete that plan during your weekend. Failure in either part costs you a coffee, failure in both costs you lunch.
Those plans can be whatever you want. Ranging from taking care of basic life chores, to working on projects, to getting exercise, and to whatever else might seem a priority.
This doesn't fix the lack of intrinsic motivation to get started per se, but does add another, extrinsic, motivation. More wanting to save face than worrying about the hit to our wallets - both of us willing to tease each other and ourselves for being too meek in our planning when we succeed, or for being too ambitious or lazy when we fail. (Edit: Also out of a sense of competition.)
I'm still searching for intrinsic motivation, but at least as a stopgap, extrinsic motivation through precommitment is doing wonders for my life. Given that it took me a decade or so to figure out this much, I'll more than happily take it.
I've moved a lot in the last decade, and this is one of those predicaments I end up in the first months before I build a new social circle in the new city. I've found that my social life thrives if I can find a group with a few flaky social butterflies, who my general predictability can balance well against.
When they get some random activity in their head, they have someone to go do it with and I have that impetus to go do something outside my default patterns. It might be helpful to look at the friends and colleagues around you and see if you might need to go hunt for a little extra flavor in that mixing pot.
We live in a society where access to information is greater than it ever has been in history, and everything we may take an interest in doing has been done before, and someone has already pointed out all of the flaws and how it's wrong. We see that first and focus in on it, and we let it destroy something that a previous generation would've seen as imperfect yet beautiful.
Can definitely relate to that. I'd rather think that there's something temporarily wrong with my brain chemistry, something that'll get sorted out after a few years pass and new habits and a new rhythm, a new balance of social, work, rest, exercise etc become part of my life.
On the other hand I'm afraid that it's a generational thing. A child of the financial recession (nearing 25yo, economy's not quite booming in Europe), of digital work (I'm able to pay the bills programming from home in my own little company without having to leave the house much), of an age with unprecedented access to information (everything you mentioned, knowing exactly how great the world is and how insignificant anything you do is). As if my particular blend of person in this particular age in this particular economy is just begging to become a shut-in.
I didn't quite ride a wave of easy employment that led to company life playing a big social, professional and personal (confidence etc) role in my life, having graduated during a recession. Wasn't forced outside and into the lives of others due to the digital age allowing me to make a living from home.
Anyway it's all a bit depressing, I try not to spend too much time explaining why. It feels like giving up, or finding an excuse.
One thing a friend told me a while ago stuck with me though... on how the notion that life is malleable (this sort of variation on the American dream. That if you just work and try hard enough, you can become anything and do anything), meant as an uplifting and motivating cultural idea, not to mention an idea that homogenizes everyone: everyone is capable, everyone is unique and special and important and powerful... I think perhaps is the reason of so much depression and anxiety and uncertainty in young people today. Because it's simply not true that anyone can become the next Steve Jobs, yet because of this notion that life is completely malleable, if you're not awesome then there must be some unique character flaw you're suffering from, it's your fault.
Anyway again I don't like to get caught up on this frame of mind too much as it just gets me absolutely nowhere, but it's definitely interesting to discuss every now and then.
Re: malleability of life. I like stoicism because it captures the view that feels more realistic to me: That which you can control, you control to your utmost. That which you cannot control, you let go. Sorting it out and finding the balance between fatalism and optimism involves knowing and understanding your own limits.
After all, there are a lot of things your body is capable of doing, yet you aren't ever driven to do them. That's really at the heart of the shut-in symptoms.
Information overload can be worse than none at all. I recall someone did a study of employee 401K participation, and above a certain point, the more choices they were given the fewer people ever signed up.
Our limited capacity for "decision-making" is at least as real a limitation as time or money.
For me it has to do with opportunity costs. Take a strawberry milkshake instead of banana, no biggie if it tastes bad. Take a career path and end up regretting it, and it's a really big deal, usually. And even if your career path wasn't a bad choice per se, again, opportunity cost, perhaps the alternative had been much better. At the end of the day you just have to choose, try it, and if it appears nice enough you double-down, and that choice can be really difficult.
One of the most frustrating things for me had been having to decide on the bulk of my professional education before ever having worked in the field. I think programming is to some extent an exception in that many programmers get a decent experience on what programming is like as a kid, as a hobby. Being an engineer in an office is a whole different matter of course, but the notion of programming for hours on a daily basis is something you can grasp by age 15 or 18 when you decide on a focus in high school and a major in college.
But for so many professions, you have people age 17 having to decide if they like being a dentist or a lawyer, or a sales person or a government worker, while having near-zero experience, and fleeting ideas on what it is from movies and magazines.
Not sure what it's like in the US but in the Netherlands at age 11 you get tested and go to a certain level of secondary school. The lowest gets you entrance to community college at age 16. The middle to vocational school (e.g. university of applied sciences). The highest to university ('research uni'). There's some opportunities to switch after age 11, but it's very tricky for multiple reasons and generally rare. And then at age 13 or so you decide on a focus which gets you different subjects. e.g. Physics & Science, or Culture and Society or Economics & Society. And those give entrance to your tertiary education. So if you chose at age 13 or so that you liked Culture, you'd have gotten things like art history and French, and you couldn't go on at age 17 to pick Computer Science. You'd have to do an extra program, again difficult for various reasons and rare.
Now at 24 looking back this structure was really frustrating. I liked economics as a subject, chose that path, always did Computer Science as a hobby (which wasn't a subject in any of the paths), but couldn't do CS unless I did Physics (which was a subject I had for years regardless as everyone gets it, but not to the full extent supposedly required).
> Not sure what it's like in the US but in the Netherlands at age 11 you get tested and go to a certain level of secondary school.
Wow, that sounds really f*-ed up! I always thought most places were like Slovenia (or UK is similar, if I understand correctly), where the main decision point is only at 18-19, when you're choosing your university! (The earlier is at 14-15, between a "gymnasium" - general-purpose school - and a vocational school (e.g. for a hairdresser, cook, ...), but most reasonably intelligent people go to a gymnasium).
I'm originally from the UK and, while you are correct that university at ~18 is usually the point-of-no-return, "high prestige" universities often have significant expectations on performance within a predefined set of subjects (at least within engineering) during the admissions process.
It would be very challenging for someone lacking the above-average levels of interest/talent in relevant fields at the age of 16 (spurring them to take related college-level courses) to get into a prestigious STEM course - outwith extraordinary circumstance.
Yup so we have that system like Slovenia too only it's a little bit earlier. You go to a level of secondary school at age 12, based on a test at age 11.
I personally got a maximum score of 550/550 on this test which gets you into 'gymnasium'. If you get below 545 you go to a middle-level education (will let you go to university of applied sciences, to become e.g. a marketing manager, teacher, physical therapist etc). Below 530 you do to the lower-level education (for lack of a better word), to train to become e.g. hairdresser or cook.
Anyway I got 550 but still went to middle-level as per a teachers' recommendation. (typical minimal effort maximum score kid). Later ended up still going to uni but it's a path with various hurdles and detours.
Frustrating in hindsight that this decision happens so early in life when you don't quite grasp the implications of educational & class differences, and at an age where the notion of becoming someone who volunteers in an animal shelter is way more interesting than to become a data scientist. As you grow up you realize the social stratification brought about by educational differences.
And then on top, indeed, you choose a certain flavor of high school. You get 2 years of general purpose stuff. Everyone gets both Physics and Math, as well as French and Art History, etc. But then the 3-4 years after, you choose one or the other. That's at age 14ish. And so even if you do gymnasium and everyone can go to uni, you're not going to be able to apply for medicine for example if you didn't do 6 years of physics in secondary school.
There's a lot of talk to change it. In fact I think Finland just removed the concept of 'subjects' altogether. Which is a radical thing to do, and takes a lot of effort and rethinking and reshaping of education. But it could be brilliant. Here they're talking about making secondary school a bit more general purpose, as the huge push for 'career planning' sessions for 12 and 16 year olds isn't enough to let them make informed decisions about what they'll be studying at age 20, and working in at age 30 or 40. Beyond that all of education is shifting away from skills, and towards competencies. So that if you teach 'self-learning', someone who spent 5 years in marketing can shift to become a programmer, if the economy changes. At least that's the general idea. It's a lot harder but competencies are definitely more valuable and important than skills (which become redundant as tech changes, e.g. being a skilled typewriter) in the long-term.
Regarding information overload, it seems that this is on track to get much worse before it gets better (if it ever does get better). Subsequently, I think we are building up to a large scale consumer backlash or implosion against "hyper connected-ness" as no one will be able to physically parse, consume and manage the deluge of bits and choices thrown at them. I think we'll get to a point of peak information and at which point it will be more hip to be offline...at least that's the hypothesis that's been ever so slowly nagging me in the back of my mind.
> It's pretty ridiculous and something very strongly tells me it's the wrong way to live life
Maybe? It's hard to tell. At least for some of us, I think the "something" telling you to get out and have fun is just society in general (and media in particular) telling us that we're supposed to be out doing "exciting" things with beautiful, interesting people.
Definitely. if I somehow tragically were to lose my parents and brother, and lost touch with friends and all who wouldn't check my Linkedin, i.e. nobody to check if I'm a success or failure or to judge me... I wouldn't mind as much to live the life I do now. So there's definitely a sense of community pressure. I wrote about it in another comment briefly; this notion that life is malleable and you can be anything and do anything is really depressing. Because it almost implies that if you're not Steve Jobs, you're really doing something wrong. While the notion that life is malleable is supposed to be uplifting and motivating, it can also be depressing. Yet the thought is absolutely pervasive in our culture. Hell to take Jobs as an example, his well known speech on everything around us is designed, and you can design things, too, so empowering [0]... can to some people be interpreted as 'I didn't design anything nor have any good ideas on new designs, I'm an idiot'.
I don't know what exactly you've tried, and back seat driving on HN about such a tough topic is probably a bad idea, but...
Have you tried joining a volunteer organization? I'm a member of a couple, and it's hard to overstate how much it has helped me get out. Helping other people is such a rush. It's not all roses and sunshine, but might be worth a try if you haven't gone down that path.
Either a dedicated non profit like a mentorship program or a volunteer organization like the Rotarians (I'm a member of the Odd Fellows, myself) would love to have even an hour of your time a week.
Having done a small amount of required volunteering for school I would disagree. Of course, I live in the middle of nowhere, and it was mostly my classmates volunteering with me who are also required to volunteer for so many hours.
Well, ya, it isn't really volunteering.
And there are so few places I know to work that I really don't get to pick where I work, it is just whatever one I find I do.
I think the volunteering experience is, like so many other things, dependent on who else is participating as well as what you are doing. I hope you explore/are able to explore other opportunities in the future that resonate more profoundly with you.
Maybe. I lost my signed sheet. So I have to do like 20 hours again. You wouldn't happen to know a good place to find things to volunteer for in general?
My wife's charity organization has gotten some new members by publicizing their events on Meetup.com! I haven't used it but in general that seems like a good place to find things to do.
If not, try your local government or church, or just see if big-name charities or service organizations have any groups in your area.
I don't know if it's the same as you, but whenever I consider doing some "activity", I immediately fast-forward through it in my mind and think, "OK, so it'll be fun for, like, an hour. Then what?" More than anything, deep down, I feel like I crave the unknown and the unfamiliar; but as I grow older and learn more about the world, the things in my proximity that still have this property have all but disappeared.
For this reason, I've found what I desire in my life — as a fellow "spectator" — is to drastically change my surroundings instead of focusing on specific (and ultimately inconsequential) things to do. Not, "I want to ride a jet ski", but "I want to live on an island", or "I want to take a ship across the ocean". Right now, I've been traveling around Europe for most of a year, and even though I've still been largely living the shut-in life, I appreciate having seen so many new cities, tasted so many new foods, bumbled my way through so many new languages, and gained so much life experience.
The only problem is that you can't really develop a circle of friends when you're moving from place to place every few weeks. I've been thinking that maybe if I could find a nice, tech-minded "shut-in" community in a warm location, I could live like that for a few years. Do some gardening. Raise some chickens. Maybe visit the closest city every few weeks, if I feel like it. I think that would be a pretty good life.
But I guess that's the hardest part: finding that little locus of the unknown in the first place.
I have found over the last few years that making things -- preferably making beautiful & functional things -- is what makes me happy, more than just "specific (and ultimately inconsequential) things to do".
What sorts of things do you make? My "curse" is that as a programmer, all the beautiful and functional things I know how to make require me to sit in front of a glowing screen all day!
Food :) (everyone loves that!) Beer (great way to meet people -- everyone wants to swap beer). Textiles, beadwork, crappy art. I really am thinking of woodworking -- I would like to make a really nice chair. Or a salad bowl.
Beer is very easy. So is wine--actually easier. Lots of people have made them over the past 5000+ years, so how hard can it be?
I had helped a friend a bit with some beer, but it wasn't until a few years later I tried on my own. I started with wine, initially with a book from author of _The Joy of Home Winemaking_ [1]. Apple, blueberry, raspberry, strawberry, elderberry, and also grapes (piesporter, carmenere, barolo, grenache, viognier, etc.). Cabernet / chardonnay are boring choices for boring people; there are so many other choices available.
Good results right away.
More extreme experiments, perhaps questionable results, but learned a lot in all of them.
For beer, can't go wrong with _The Complete Joy of Homebrewing_ [2].
I went to my public library and got a dozen books on each subject before going to the bookstore. Besides the techniques and recipes, there tend to be a lot of history and related books on those shelves, so definitely check your library and return for more.
It can seem like a lot of details, but it's not that hard. Easier with a friend. Even easier, you can go to a brew-on-premises place (with a friend). There's probably a homebrew group near you, maybe a meetup; go to your local brewing supply store and check it out--they're knowledgeable and usually pretty friendly too.
Relax! have a homebrew.
And don't forget cider, mead, metheglin, cyser, perry, etc.
My first batch of beer was good. One nice way to start is to buy a kit -- all the ingredients and the recipe come nicely packaged. A friend got my husband a beer-brewing kit for cheap a few years ago; it had two big 6+-gallon plastic buckets, the appropriate glassware & plastic piping, a hydrometer, etc. That and a big big pot for boiling water and preparing your wort are all you need. (I figured I needed to contribute to the family beer vault and we have slightly different tastes, so I made a great summer saison for my first beer.)
Experience: first batch always great. 2nd or 3rd or 4th goes bad because you get overconfident, fail to sanitize something, and something nasty grows. You realize sanitizing is important and have success thereon.
I read an article (or maybe comment somewhere?) once - and sadly, my search-engine-fu is not strong enough today, so I can't link it - that talked about two kinds of depression, two kinds of "beasts".
Once was called black I think. It's the one people think of, when you say depression, and how movies portray it too: sadness, despair and the feeling that everything is bad, and everything ever will be bad.
The other one, however, is supposed to be more tricky. It's gray. It doesn't make you feel sadness or despair or any other thing. It makes everything gray. It makes you numb, it makes you not care about anything at all. The world doesn't do it for you anymore, and if it were to drown, you would not care.
The former is like being hurt. The latter is like being dead. The former is hell, the latter is great endless emptiness.
...
I'm not sure how accurate it is, especially considering how people find it easy to see themselves in text that could be about anyone - see horoscopes and stuff, but I think it's important to know, that depression doesn't have to look like person is sad or anything. I think what you are describing sounds a lot like "grey" depression.
Yeah so I think I'm depressed but it's nothing like in the movies. No alcohol, no smoking, no crying, no suicidal thoughts (other than intellectual), no real sadness or despair (there's some disappointment but it's again more intellectual than emotional) and I don't really consider anything 'bad' in my life. In fact objectively most things are great. I get 3 nice meals every day, live in a nice apartment next to the park with a cool gf. Family's part of my life, as are some good friends I can rely on. Work my own hours and it pays the bills.
At the same time it's completely empty. Going outside or making career moves or traveling or going dancing or eating out or whatever, just doesn't do it for me anymore. I feel pretty empty about most things, and I'd be mostly comfortable losing touch with say my friends. I tend to leave my house, in total (whether it's groceries or seeing friends) maybe 40 times a year and I tend to wake up and spend an hour in bed lying there without any reason to get out of bed, and then finally do because it's so boring to just lay there a whole day.
So yeah definitely 'gray' for me, while the 'black' thing just absolutely doesn't resonate.
<IHaveNoIdeaWhatImTalkingAbout>
Do you feel guilty doing 'fun' things or is nothing fun? I have the guilt side of it. E.g. "Sure, I could go jet-skiing for a few hours but I should be productive." Is that it?
Ah no not at all, work isn't really a big driver for me at the moment so I tend not to feel guilty about it.
I do feel I should do something more ambitious. So my brother for example keeps telling me to just get a job at a coffeeshop, go out and meet new people through work again. My bills are such that I easily could, but in that case I'd feel like I'd be wasting my time and should be doing something productive. I don't have anything against menial work but I'm sure I'd regret it in 6 years if I'm 30 and feel like I missed the boat on another career.
So I currently do basic programming from home which pays the bills just fine but I'd like something new. I'm not really a programmer though, just have a tech interest and did it on the side as a hobby, and grew that into a business. But it's definitely not professional software engineering. More like how your nephew can build you an ecommerce shop online with some plugins and basic scripting and could make a living out of that, but no ecommerce company would ever hire him to build products, only I know a bit more than your typical techie-nephew but not quite enough to work as an engineer.
My uni background is in business & management which is absolute shit in terms of skills/knowledge. It's very much an experience-based industry. Business fundamentals is something you can do in a 2 month course, not a 4 year undergrad program. And so as a recent graduate you spent too much time learning too little, and have 0 experience. It'd definitely be fun to be a project manager, trying to blend the engineering and the business side of things as I feel I have a good enough intuition for both. But that's a role you get in your 30s with experience, not as a recent grad. Positions that are available to me are mostly sales. So a buddy of mine does ERP sales. And it's just not me, cold-calling people, having people shit in my ear 99/100 times and and preparing 1 hot lead for someone up top who rakes it in the next day for years, and then become that person. But the labor market for non-engineering things is just really brutal for recent grads. There are still jobs but everything requires a few years of experience at least. Let me know if you have any ideas haha, I'm at a loss, business school is one big joke in terms of employment. It's like it's the 80s and I just spent a few years mastering the typewriter.
Anyway got off on a tangent there. So no, no guilt on doing something 'fun'. I also wouldn't quite say that nothing is fun. If you'd teleport me onto a jetski right now, I'd have a blast. And to borrow from another comment, somehow I'm much more inclined to download a shooter game than to go to a shooting range even if it was free and around the corner, despite the fact the range would be a bigger thrill. I can't explain it, it sounds ridiculous. Same with friends, I enjoy hanging out with them every two weeks when someone keeps asking to hang out and I give in and we set a date, it's always, without fail, a fun evening. But I'm completely fine not arranging that myself for months. I wish I desired to do the things I end up enjoying once I do them. That desire isn't really there. It's like being a guy not attracted to girls at all, not feeling any emotion or sexual interest in a gorgeous willing girl across the street, as if you were gay. But once you do get around to visit the girl for whatever reason, it's genuinely fun. Again I can't explain how or why, just how it is/feels. Pains me to say it's a bit like that with my girlfriend, too. Absolutely love and adore her, pretty girl, too, sex is great and it's all there, but I've barely got any desire for it. I'd say it's a chemical thing, like a particular thing in my brain just doesn't fire because of it. But, and this is almost like a sad doctor's joke... I have no interest in going to the doctor to get it fixed. Kind of hilarious. Despite wanting for things to go back to 5 years ago (in terms of my mental state), I don't really care enough to pursue a solution.
This is personal experience talking: there's a close to 100% chance you're clinically depressed. Try speaking with your girlfriend about it if you need some encouraging to try to work on it. I stopped pursuing treatment for about 4-5 years and really wish that I had that time back. The way you describe having fun when you get out but not pursuing it yourself describes the way I used to be perfectly. It gets comforting or reassuring to do nothing to make it better, because that's all that you're used to - but once you find something that helps you and return to a better mental state, you'll realize how bad it is now and wish that you started sooner. Don't get me wrong, it's very difficult, and there's never an easy answer to finding what helps you feel better. There will be times that trying will make it worse. But after 10+ years I finally feel close to normal again and it was very much worth the effort. If you'd like to reach out or talk further, let me know, I would be glad.
I don't quite know what to say... although I nearly wouldn't have, either. My girlfriend fell in love just as I was slipping into this new shut-in life. She had to adjust to me not really wanting to go to a cafe, movie, restaurant, park, museum, party, friends etc. It's the reason I wanted to break up and told her it's not going to work out like this. But she refused and stayed with me, we moved in together and it's been years now. But it hasn't been the same like 2 years earlier when I was a typical boyfriend, interested in participating in all facets of life and doing all of the above mentioned things and enjoying them, too. It's quite strange how it went and I'd still be okay with her finding someone else. I mean don't get me wrong I absolutely adore her but it's just how it is, something irrational.
Same with friends, I've not instigated contact in 2 years now with any of my friends. I still have 3 who hit me up and I go see either of em a few times a month because they want to. But I'd also be okay if they stopped calling.
Same with family. I hate to say it. I'd definitely still check in on them if they stopped calling, the only people really, but there's no real desire to hang out or talk, I'd just be really curious and concerned about how they're doing but not more than that.
So it's really because of them, not me. Wish it was all like 3 years ago. Now I couldn't even get excited for a free holiday trip. Hell I used to love that. Traveled Europe, Africa, Asia and North America by the time I was 20. Now I don't even want to walk in the park when it's nice outside, and I literally live next to a park. Crazy how a brain can change for no discernible reason.
When did things start to change for you, has it always been like this?
This is similar to my life in a lot of ways! I feel you on a lot of these things. Although I was always pretty happy spending most of my time alone, and I didn't do a lot of traveling.
I think if I had to sum it all up, I'd say that the things I value just aren't really obtained by doing a lot of shallow socializing. I'd rather have a few very close friends, and I'd rather do a few things very well than do a bunch of things on a superficial level.
One thing that really helped me was getting a dog a few years ago. It was my wife's idea so I can't take any credit for it. But having a living (and loving) creature depending on me has definitely been good for getting me to take plenty of walks. I don't ever want to recommend a dog as some kind of self-improvement tool... they're sentient creatures, not accessories, and are a big commitment! But he's really been a wonderful influence.
> Traveled Europe, Africa, Asia and North America by the time
> I was 20.
Do you think it's possible that you don't feel a need to do these things precisely because you've already done them?
> Do you think it's possible that you don't feel a need to do these things precisely because you've already done them?
Mmm good question. When I was a bit younger there was definitely an urge to do things I'd never done before. Travel, go to college, live on my own, girlfriend etc. And certainly there's a sense that this first-time's urge is gone.
But I've also always enjoyed things I had already done. Meeting friends or playing another game of football like hundreds before, going dancing etc, I used to like doing them weekly or monthly even when I'd have done them tens of times before. But not anymore so that's new. And when I came back from Asia I certainly didn't feel like I'd seen it all. I mean those 4 continents sound like a bigger deal than they are. I've seen only 2 countries in each of those continents, none of them more than 6 months, except Europe where I've lived for decades and traveled quite a bit. In terms of traveling there's a shit ton of places I'd love to visit, on paper that is. Places I've never been, would be awesome to explore and that I'd enjoy being if I happened to be there.
Thanks for sharing your story, always wanted to get a dog haha. But also always felt like it was a huge 10+ year commitment. Who knows maybe in a few years, if I ever buy a house I can definitely see myself having a dog! :)
It's a bit of an odd suggestions, but consider having kids. Kids have a way of needing things, that just transcends all the meaningless excuses you have for not getting anything done.
Make it a point that it's YOU that takes them to school, or shopping or whatever. Or if shopping is too confusing to do alone make a point that the whole family goes. That it's you that makes lunches, and checks if they did homework. As infants make it a point that you dress them for bed, even if your SO picks the clothing.
The instinct to take care of kids is wired really really deep in your brain, way below any surface problems. It will easily override them if you let it.
I have zero experience with parenthood. That said,
Raising kids for any reason other than "raising kids" strikes me as terrible advice. I'd be interested in hearing anecdotes of whether raising productivity by having kids is effective (let alone morally permissible).
The only reason to have kids is if you think you can do a good job raising them.
It makes no difference why they were born, or how it helped you. The only thing that matters is how you raise them.
There are plenty of people who have children in order to mature, be adults, and progress in life. If you love them, and pay attention to them, and intend to raise them well, it works just fine.
Nope, unless she tries to find it. HN is in my favorites and it auto-logins. But she's really not the type for that. I think it'd be pretty painful to read although she knows the bulk of it.
> It's a bit of an odd suggestions, but consider having kids.
Still 24, so that'd be really early for us, not something I'd love to have so early in my life (although I can imagine how nice it'd be to still be 44 with an adult kid!).
Beyond that though it's also not something I'd feel is appropriate. It's definitely true that if I'd have kids right now I'd probably solve the symptoms of whatever problem I have, completely agree with you there. I'm that type of person, as most people are, to my girlfriend for example. If she needs me I'll be there, if she has stuff planned for a birthday, or is going to graduate or needs a running partner for motivation, I'll suddenly be up for going out with her. And it's certainly true that people have had kids for less. But this issue is not something I'd ever want to use as a reason to have kids in and of itself, despite any of that.
> I think it'd be pretty painful to read although she knows the bulk of it.
Personally I think she should, but of course I don't really know anything about her.
> Still 24, so that'd be really early for us
I don't think 24 is especially young. Maybe a drop younger than typical, but you seem to have good earning potential, and someone you love. What more do you need?
It has advantages too - you have more energy when young, and kids take a lot of work.
(Also don't forget you never know how long it will actually take.)
> But this issue is not something I'd ever want to use as a reason to have kids
It's not written permanently on them you know. Helping their parents is probably the best reason to have kids. "Why did you have me Dad?" "Because you make me happy."
What matters is how you raise them, not why they were born.
What matters is how you raise them, not why they were born
While that's likely true, I think it's also wise to consider that it is probably unwise to consider "having kids" as a _solution_ to a problem. Having kids is signing up for a half decade of never sleeping the same way again, never having "you" time easily, etc. It's a mountain of stress on both parents, and should not be entered into lightly -- else how will one manage to raise the kids well?
Have you tried Meetup? I screwed up my work-life balance towards the very end of college so I graduated both rusty at meeting people and in a situation that many people find hard (making friends in a new city post-college, particularly when all my coworkers lived 40 miles away from me, were older than me, and I didn't have a car). My gf at the time suggested Meetup, and though I initially dismissed it as "embarrassing" ("Jesus I need to use a service to find friends? How pathetic"), I eventually tried it out and made some really good friends pretty immediately (as well as a much larger circle of friendly acquaintances who I still see semi-regularly). Though perhaps that was specific to my problem, since at the time (and now) I was always bursting with new things to do but was lacking people to do them with.
Come visit LA - you can stay with me if you like. I'm looking for new friends in the area and we could meet a bunch together - or go to a few nerd nights. Respond if interested.
This was me 10 years ago. I got rid of my cell phone and got rid of internet service at my house. I had to go to a local coffee shop. After a month or so of regularly going I met some people. I also took up racquetball and jiu-jitsu. Getting rid of internet service and a cell phone saved my life. At least in my opinion.
These are suggestions for you but maybe someone for whom your comment resonates with will get a helpful idea from what I've written. I hope you find a way out of your rut.
I know it sounds silly to most people, but this is a modern equivalent of "going cold turkey." Many of us are addicted to our network connections, which is tolerated and even celebrated because it's a tool that can also be used productively.
For some people, not being able to get online once you leave the office (if you're lucky enough to have such a clear work/life divide) can be the best thing for leading a healthy life.
So many people see the benefits of "cord cutting" but forget that replacing cable with WiFi is a problem of having six in one hand and half-a-dozen in the other.
>ps - anything you have to suggest is something i've heard already x10 and have or currently trying, such as therapy.
Uhh, you sure? Solution space is much bigger than you'd think.
Have you heard of Trigger-Action Planning (also known in the literature by the horrible name "Implementation Intentions")? It gets you around 0.6 standard deviations more "doing things you want to do but don't end up doing." The gist of it is fairly straightforward - take a concrete experience, and tie it to a specific action you want to do in that context. "When I walk through my bedroom door, do a pull-up on the pull-up bar" is a great TAP. "After dinner, study math" is a bad one. "When I open reddit, close reddit" is both hilarious and effective.
The best part is that doing Trigger-Action Planning badly is better than not trying it at all. It's why I'm sharing it, since it's generally safe. It's a learnable skill for programming your automatic and habitual actions. (Please don't use it to program experiencing negative emotions into yourself. Part of your problem is likely that you've programmed "feel guilty about being unworthy of San Francisco" as an automatic response to experiencing San Francisco's beauty. If this resonates with you, don't feel bad about it - this is a growth opportunity, which is not something you want to avoid in the future.)
Yes. Cannot overstate how important that is. I've started taking random 10-15 minute walks throughout the day at work (leaving my phone on my desk), and it's a great way to clear your mind and relax a bit.
I saw a wonderful anime about a Hikikomori character recently, called Welcome to the NHK. It's on Netflix, and I recommend it to everyone since it's topical but also because it was oddly (and sometimes not so oddly) moving.
How about going on Couchsurfing and putting yourself up as a host? If you don't have the energy to go out into the world, you can get the world to come to you, all through the internet.
No suggestions, but a historical comment: the sort-of ancients described this as "acedia". Monks and other solitaries were worried about this problem and discussed how to deal with the demon of acedia. From the Wikipedia page, the Oxford Dictionary of Church Stuff calls it "a state of restlessness and inability either to work or to pray". I actually learned about it from "Acedia and Me" by Kathleen Norris. It was given to me by a friend at a period in my life when I'd get up at 9 or 10 and drag myself through my part-time job and not make progress at side projects even though I had lots of time, all the time in the world....
Based on your postscript this may not help, but how about giving yourself the mission of getting outside the house and doing something at least once each day, with a sense of purpose?
"I really don't feel like it, but I am going to walk to the park/bridge/waterfront and back. I am going to get a beer/coffee/tea at this place I've heard about. I will walk to the store and pick up groceries. It doesn't have to be anything miraculous or life changing and I don't have to meet or talk to anybody--I just have to try, because it will be worse if I don't."
>"I really don't feel like it, but I am going to walk to the park/bridge/waterfront and back. I am going to get a beer/coffee/tea at this place I've heard about. I will walk to the store and pick up groceries. It doesn't have to be anything miraculous or life changing and I don't have to meet or talk to anybody--I just have to try, because it will be worse if I don't."
I think a better idea would be to accept there is no particular purpose, more about doing something random, that perhaps you think you'll feel better for after, and seeing what happens. Embrace the chaos!
I am the same but my view on it is the complete opposite - I love my life! Staying home programming and surfing the web is the most stimulating, fun and rewarding thing I know so why would I bother doing anything else?
Okay, here's some suggestions. Test them out and see what happens I guess. Frankly, I have no idea what will happen if you do them:
1) Take a random amount of money... $25...$50... research and donate it to a charity you think is cool. Pick one and do it. Like now.
2) Are you in your house right now? Still on your computer? Go outside and walk around. It doesn't have to be supremely interesting or perfect.
3) Go to a coffeeshop or other place you can sit. Get a drink. Stare at the wall without your computer. Try not to be productive. Drink your coffee. You are not allowed to be productive.
1) I've been donating to Doctors without Borders since I was 18 and help fund a project on Kiva every month or so.
If anyone's interested in researching where to give I also recommend checking out the Give Well foundation,[0] as it matters more how you give, than whether you give. i.e. there are millions of people who have partial or full blindness due to lack of vitamins. A simple $20 operation will restore their eyesight, which is gigantic. Alternatively, there are millions of blind people who will never be able to see. We have alleviate their blindness with a guide dog, but it costs $20k to raise and train the dog and blind person. That's a three order of magnitude difference in cost, and the 100x cheaper operation actually cures blindless, while the 100x more expensive option 'merely' makes a blind life better.
In other words, one person donating $100 can be much more effective (curing 5 people of blindness) than 100 people donating $200 (giving 1 blind person a guide dog). This is the sort of thing the Give Well foundation tries to approach in a data-driven manner: what is the most effective way to give. This is an extreme example, but I think it's a really important approach to charity.
2) Went to my mom's birthday today instead. Was fun to see family again.
3) 9PM, reall cold and dark now... but yeah, I'd really struggle with this one even in the afternoon. But I'll try to do it tomorrow.
Have you considered volunteering? We can make our lives so safe, so sufficient, that there is no reason to do more, but that doesn't mean that there are no wants in the world. When we substitute someone else's needs for our own (which we've already taken care of), we can both make the world a better place and find a reason for trying again. So many organizations can benefit from someone who knows how to use Excel or set up a wireless router or help optimize some workflow, and you can have an enormous impact while getting to see the broader world.
Your self awareness is commendable. I'd hazard a guess that you belong here more than you think you do. Just recognize that beauty when you see it, and keep supporting the locals. It's a city of immigrants.
San Francisco is a beautiful city but it is wasted on me and I feel like I should feel guilty for that. I don't deserve this nice city; it belongs to creative people.
Trying to leave the house to do anything interesting takes herculean efforts. I can't find joy or interest in anything beyond an intellectual level. Everyday sometimes feels like it's worse than the last.
I'm trapped in an un-ending present where I grow older but never grow as a person.
ps - anything you have to suggest is something i've heard already x10 and have or currently trying, such as therapy.