There is an alternate universe where every time he took his computer apart, he skipped the reflow heat stuff and just put it back together... and it worked identically for identical periods of time between failures. I'm not saying it's this universe, I'm just saying there is one out there.
A few months ago I disassembled and cleaned a grape juice damaged MBP. Tried it afterward and no dice. Tried it yesterday on a bored whim and I now have a working MBP with a sticky keyboard. Why? I have no idea.
Most of the actual logic board is sealed. So unless you spill something corrosive that goes through that seal and damages the logic board liquid can only get to and damage[0] actual connectors between components and physically moving entities. In case of MBP physically moving entities are mostly fans and keyboard.
My guess would be that grape juice shorted some of those connectors. After few months it dried sufficiently, such that when you reseated them short went away.
[0] And by damage I mean mostly short and/or corrode the metal.
Heh. I caught in the rain with my MacBook Air, and it worked fine for a day, but then wouldn't boot up at all and wouldn't hold charge. Three weeks later and rice and all that jazz and nothing. A couple months later, the charger showed a light, but it wouldn't boot and never lit up green.
Six months from the first incident, and I randomly plugged it in and it booted instantly - I was ecstatic. It lasted two weeks before it wouldn't boot up again. A week later, it booted up again, and has been fine ever since.
Beats me man. Apple "Geniuses" wouldn't touch it and wanted me to buy a new one.
Again, this was likely due to the minerals in the water causing a short, and after a long period of time, the mineral "bridges" broke/wore-away, resolving the short, and allowing your macbook to boot.
Regarding the "Apple Geniuses", I doubt there would of been anything they could do for you, other than sit there with a cuetip and attempt to wipe down your entire mainboard after a full disassembly. Not to mention water damage probably isn't covered...
That sounds plausible, though I thought any power running through it would've caused it to burn out. I was actually going to do a full disassembly with a mate of mine who was an EE, but never got round to it. We attempted to do it with my iPhone (which was dunked into a toilet in an unrelated incident), but even cleaning everything with isopropyl alcohol it wouldn't work. I didn't hold high hopes for the MacBook.
And no, water damage wasn't covered by warranty, but it was out of warranty anyhow. I just didn't want to pay another $2K for a MacBook Air (maxed out specs at the time).
How about attempting to fix the issue instead of confirming what I already knew and telling me to buy a new computer? That's what technicians are supposed to do.
They did the same to me, when I dropped my first iPad and cracked the screen. They looked at it, and said "We'll sell you a new one at half price". Oh thanks, not even going to pretend to try to fix it?
But I did buy the new one and let them have the cracked one.
Sounds pretty great, actually. On these modern devices where the LCD is bonded to the glass screen, replacing the screen can cost as much as the device itself.
One weird trick I remember from alt.hackers was using WD-40 to remove the water from soaked electronics, and then using high-purity isopropyl(?) alcohol to clean off the WD-40. (You'd want to remove the WD-40 since it would attract dust.)
That's interesting, I'd think you'd just use rubbing alcohol (isopropyl) of >95%, since it will evaporate very rapidly by itself, taking any moisture with it. It also has great cleaning properties by itself (often used to eat the thermal paste gunk off heatsinks). Isopropyl alcohol is what "Swimmers Ear Drops" are mostly made of (for when you get water stuck in your ear).
I wondered that, too. I wonder whether he actually reflowed solder in the oven. Wikipedia gives a sample profile that heats to over 200 degrees Celsius for a minute or so. This uses around 170 degrees Celsius, which is used for preheating in the Wikipedia example. Also, a Google image search gives me reflow heats above 200 degrees for the 5 images I checked.
Also "The speed holes worked: The boot chime rang. The screen glowed. The fans blew." doesn't make sense to me. The extra holes may help and may even fix his problem, but I find it hard to believe that successful booting shows that. Yes, it is a 'little' early for a final verdict.
From what I know about heat treat ageing of metals something similar may be happening. Because he is pushing his system through above average temperature cycles, this causes microcrystalline changes in the solder. Ageing at even a temperature below reflow/melt temperatures can help restructure the grain.
If he didn't run his system at such a high temp and then eventually turn it off to cool so much then he might not have the problem to begin with. As a side note, personal experience building pcs for many years has shown me that pcs that sleep/get powered off don't last as long as ones that stay powered on 24/7.
Why do you doubt the temperature did not reflow the board?
When I solder electronics, I'm usually somewhere between 500F to 650F, but that's so things get hot enough quickly enough to not burn. I don't doubt a slow bake at 340F would do the same thing... some online googling shows people doing reflows with toaster ovens in the same temperature range (340F-450F).
It's likely the solder joints were not completely disconnected, but rather simply cracked. So heating them a bit would allow the crack to reconnect, at least for a short while (seems to explain his symptoms of repeated failures after extreme system temperatures during operation).
Is it not true that baking it makes any "cracking" in the soldering smooth out since this is similar to what is done to boards at the factory during construction?
Right. And the reason why it keeps breaking? Well, the solder on the board might not have any flux left, so it might have trouble flowing properly. There could be a cold joint, etc.
If it fails again, one possible next step would be to grab a multimeter and test the resistance across each component on the board. If the resistance is infinite, that might be your problem component.
There's more than resistors on logic board. Also, by even touching component leads with multimeter probes is sometimes enough to connect the joint back thus fooling you to think connection was ok.
Also, the problem might as well be one of the numerous chips in BGA packages whose connection points you can't even see, let alone- probe.
Don't you have to isolate components from the circuit to check resistance? Otherwise, you're looking also the other components look like the other arm(s) of a parallel circuit.
You know what, you're right. I saw a video of someone testing that a chip had been soldered on correctly with a multimeter, but he was testing for the lack of a connection. Testing for a connection would not be done this way.My bad.
Got a source for that? According to Wikipedia, 340F is not far from the melting point for solder. Depending on the solder used, it may have melted, or just gotten soft enough to heal any gaps or cracks.
The link you attached lists a few different lead-free solder alloys with the lowest melting at 412F(211C) well above 340F(171C). Eutectic tin/lead solder has a melting point of 361F(183C), also above 340F.
I'm not sure whether or not cracks can heal at temperatures below the melting point, but I would be surprised if that were possible.
So it turns out that home oven manufacturers don't care too much about precision when it comes to oven temperature (and it doesn't matter usually).
A high end home oven will easily swing between +- 25 degrees of the temperature that you have dialed in, and that's if it's well calibrated.
If he didn't dial in "340" quite right, and his oven was average, I can easily see it hitting temperatures of 412+, and that could also account for his varied results.
It's possible that he did reflow the board. Consumer ovens usually reach 250C, slightly more when in autoclean mode. Lead-free reflow happens above 250C (normally 255-275C).
The whole procedure is wild, though, and I wouldn't recommend trying it out. He was lucky that the board didn't get destroyed. Most SMD components can withstand temperatures above 250C for tens of seconds, not necessarily for nine minutes.
But he writes "and turned the oven up to 340 F". That's about 170 Celsius. The oven probably isn't very precise, but I doubt that's in the 250 Celsius range.
I'm guessing he put the board in and then started the oven which took a while to preheat. Industrial reflow heats up the board gradually based on the solder paste manufacturer's suggested heat profile or experimentation/trial and error (e.g. when dealing with small pitch BGAs). 250C for even a few minutes would do quite some damage even to the fire retardant laminate and smell horrible.
He stated he was using a temperature of 340F, which is roughly 170C. Would that temperature also be harmful to SMD components when exposed for several minutes?
I did an oven reflow on an RRoD Xbox motherboard years ago. Worked like a charm. I was a little worried about bursting the caps, but a little insulation and aluminum foil protection apparently kept them cool enough. Lasted for about a year.
I had the same thought after I reflowed the GPU from my iMac. It didn't work before, and it did work after, but it may simply be that dismounting and remounting the heat sink put enough pressure on the cracked solder ball to make it work again. I will never know, short of xray inspection, but it's been working fine for half a year now.
My early 2011 MBP has had one logic board replaced so far at my own expense a short while after AppleCare expired. This site has been compiling relevant information to those experiencing the same problem, and the #mbp2011 hashtag on Twitter is also a good resource for those affected:
Had two 2007 MacBook Pro's break down that way. Local Apple Care Service providers didn't want to apply Apple-mandated extended warranty. I was pretty disappointed to find out that later models exhibited similar flaws, because the soldering issue of 2007 models was blamed on nVidia.
When a friend was buying her mother a christmas present iPad, I went with her to examine which models handle the tablet workload better. We ended up picking an older generation, non-retina model. A few previous generation retina models, presumably running latest iOS updates, had ridiculously high temperatures just idling on the shelf.
Nvidia made a run of defective GPUs somewhere around 2007-2008. Tom's Hardware claims[0] that all G84 and G86 GPUs other than warranty replacements produced in late 20008 are defective.
It's not a BGA solder issue like we've seen on numerous laptop GPUs over the years, but a problem with the internal interconnects. Heating it, as if to reflow a BGA does temporarily solve the problem, but in my experience, the period of time it keeps working after heating gets shorter each time.
Here in Europe Apple is replacing affected logics for free with consumer law claims. The are only two conditions: 1. you need to have the original receipt 2. it must be a non business purchase (so you must be a consumer)
I had one logic board replaced under AppleCare in 2013. It only took a few months before the new logic board exhibited the same GPU/heat problems.
Finally, just a few days ago -- right before Christmas -- it just up and died. Seeing how I didn't want to pay for a new logic board with the same design defect, I just ended up buying a new laptop (and no, it is not a Mac).
My early 2011 MBP was probably the most expensive laptop I've bought in a long time (the most expensive was the Powerbook 170 - oh how I loved the trackball on that thing), and I loved the form factor and expandability. It really bugs me that it died while it was still more than usable in terms of performance.
I had my "2011 MBP - refurbished" covered under Applecare so I got to at least get it covered as these issues were cropping up. They replaced both the logicboard and the harddrive.
I ended up selling it for whatever I could get for it a month ago and just cutting my losses before the Applecare ran out.
tbh if this is the GPU, then this is prob an AMD and nVidia problem with using cheap solder on their daughterboards. I remember a rash of manufacturers, sony, asus, etc having this sort of issue. I'm kind of leery of discrete gpu's in laptops these days, esp when the Haswell on-board one is good enough for most of what I do.
The issue isn't that EU-mandated tin-alloy solders are cheap, it's that the solder balls aren't solid and non-lead solders are brittle. For components that don't undergo constant radical thermal shifts, this is a nonissue. For the only ball grid array-mounted component on the board (the GPU), this is a recipe for eventual failure.
If the balls were factory tested for solidity this would become far less of an issue. Industry papers on the manufacture of solder balls indicate they are not; when those balls were lead, it didn't matter because lead's not thermally brittle.
ah thanks. hard to me to find laymen articles on this (interest prompted on an ATI daughter card failure on an '09 iMac), so always interesting to find out more.
I always recommend looking into having laptops covered through your insurance company. I have state farm, and my wife and I have our laptops under personal article policies. The coverage is better, broader, and cheaper that anything else I've seen. My wife recently got a surface pro 3 to use during her forest soils PhD, and I was adamant we get nice insurance if she was going to be using it in the field. Two years of no deductible spill, drop, and malfunction coverage through squarespace is 280$. I get the same coverage plus theft and loss for 40 a year through my insurer. And it is a 3 block walk to the office where I can eat pastries and drink coffee while I file a claim. I have only had to file one claim, but it was for a head crash and they covered a new hard drive w/out question.
I'm not saying it is a good fit for everyone, but it works out well for me. I do recommend squarespace for individual parts of a self-built tower pc. I spent 120 on a motherboard and on the third replacement spquarespace upgraded me because it turned out that model had an almost 50% failure rate in the first year.
Don't buy insurance for things that won't ruin you.
The insurer will calculate the risk of whatever happening, and obviously charge more than likelihood * cost.
So unless your risk is higher than average, you're losing money. And keep in mind that the average insurance taker probably has higher risk than the overall population.
I generally agree. However: If you are risk pooling with much lower-risk devices and people, then you can still come out ahead. For example, maybe most people buying that kind of coverage are buying it for devices that rarely break or are lost/damaged -- they might be simply insuring against theft while you're using the damage coverage.
Even if it won't ruin you, unexpectedly having to shell out over a thousand dollars for a new laptop might be so much of a hassle that it's worth "wasting" a few bucks each month to not have to worry about it.
Insurance is about pooling and distributing risk. What you describe might be the right move on average. But people live in the world of specifics, not long-term averages. If your new laptop suddenly breaks a few months after purchase and the replacement cost would cause you distress, then the $20 you have saved in an account doesn't help much.
By this logic, nobody should buy life insurance because the insurance companies have calculated their premiums so that they come out ahead. At least on average.
> By this logic, nobody should buy life insurance because the insurance companies have calculated their premiums so that they come out ahead. At least on average.
If you flip the statement, it's "do insure against things that can ruin you".
Whether life insurance is worth it depends on what you mean by that exactly. You can insure your untimely death with a benefit for your family, but there are also contracts that are more of a form of investment, and combinations thereof.
While arguably once you're dead, you're, well, dead, so you personally might not care that much anymore, your family might. And for them the loss of one of the primary earners of the family is probably ruinous, so it's reasonable to take insurance against that.
The investment case is different, it's essentially just an investment contract with associated cost. In that case, you're just buying a service (managing your investment, and to some degree insuring against investment risk). The two forms are commonly mixed together, and then it depends a lot on the structure and cost of the contract. YMMV, but I think over here these contracts have very intransparent cost structures and are commonly more expensive than getting a plain life insurance and a separate investment contract (or investing yourself, for that matter).
No, but consider all of the things that you might insure - appliances and electronics. Now take the total cost of insuring them and put it in a bank account. In the case that one of them breaks, the savings will likely cover that replacement. Chance are none of them will break. Do the same thing next year. Not only to you make a little interest, you have all of last year's left-over premiums.
Almost everything I would want to insure as far as appliances and electronics go are already covered by my renters policy, if you do not have a renters policy go get one, right now, mine is only $10/mo with state farm (including an additional addendum to cover up to $10K in personal electronics).
Of course, there's a $500 deductible on that, but the things I expect to happen that would cause me to file a claim on my policy are likely to end up with a lot more damage than that.
My laptop and personal assets I carry when I travel are an entirely different story, a $500 deductible if my duplex burned down or an electrical storm fried every device in my house is pretty acceptable, but that's over 1/3 of the value of the things that go into my laptop bag. Considering I've already had a car broken into and only recovered $200 after my $500 renters deductible a personal assets policy would be well worth it to me if it cost $10/mo.
No, I certainly don't, but the cost of insuring a $2000 laptop is more cost effective than saving the equivalent amount, it would take me approximately 20 years to put enough into a savings account to cover its loss if I put the same in as the insurance premium on it.
Insurance is there to protect against the unexpected, hopefully I'll never have another laptop stolen again, but it's cheaper to cover the loss with an insurance policy in case it happens again.
EDIT: In addition, insurance is designed to spread the risk. If 200 people pay $10/mo to insure their $2000 laptops, and one is stolen every other month, the insurance company still comes out on top.
Setting aside catastrophic losses˚ there seem to be roughly two strategies. You can take out insurance on your non-catastrophic items, or you could take the money that you would pay into insurance and instead save / invest it.
We should expect the insurance strategy to be a net win iff the insurance company loses money on the account. If it feels otherwise, a combination of the loss aversion and hyperbolic discount rate biases may be at work.
On the other hand, it's easy to end up in a financial situation where coming up with $2,000 on short notice is very difficult, and at that point there may be value in using insurance to shift the cost from a random large cost to smaller and more predictable chunks. It's just worth knowing that this is not cheaper.
˚ I'll define catastrophic losses as those things that must be replaced quickly and which cost enough that replacing them out of pocket would be a severe hardship if they're able to at all.
Except healthcare! You're required to buy it in the US now, but regardless...the hospitals would negotiate with insurance companies to <50% of the bill (and I've seen >90% reduction)- you can't do that as an individual and will generally be stuck with the full price.
Health cost can very easily ruin you, even if you are quite well off. Even the possibly better prices negotiated by insurances for a serious illness are ruinous, and keep in mind you most likely won't have an income while you're seriously ill. Reduced cost in the US is just icing on top.
So everyone definitely needs insurance for healthcare.
Ah, I think you misunderstood my point. I was specifically saying that getting health insurance was important- even if you have enough money to cover the cost generally. I mentioned insurance negotiation to emphasis that there were outside factors contributing to making it must-have.
Losing a smartphone isn't going to ruin me, but it sure would piss me off to have to fork out £500 or whatever because it gets jacked. Similarly, someone could break into my house and clean it out. Not going to ruin me, but I'd rather not have to replace everything.
The whole point of insurance is collective risk-spreading. Yes, this means that the majority (by value) of people with insurance will have 'wasted' money, in the sense that they purchase insurance without claiming. But that's not what they're purchasing – they're trading off a small, certain cost for the elimination of a large, uncertain cost. That's a purchase of 'certainty' or 'stability' – and it's what they get.
In other words, since you have no reliable way to understand risk and likelihood of a particular event happening, it's not possible to decide if you are at a higher risk than average.
No, that what you gave is awful advice, to anyone who cares about their money!
Go talk to an _honest_ insurance broker (not some State Farm or other company you see on TV commercials) or better yet a financial adviser. You should reserve an insurance claim for catastrophic issues only. You should also have max deductibles. Forking over 500 for a lost iPhone is a MUCH cheaper deal than paying insurance premiums for that coverage and then the INEVITABLE rate hike because this claim appears on your CLUE report.
I made the same naive mistake as your assumptions when I was young. Lost a 1k watch, made a claim, went about my jolly day with my nice check for $750 (250 deductible). 1 year later when I go to buy a house I am surprised by how much my insurance rates are. FOUR years later after that claim fell off my CLUE report my premiums went way down. I paid the insurance company more than the $750 I got from them.
I was lucky in that my neighbor was an insurance broker and told me low deductibles are taking advantage of suckers and the lesser fortunate who are scared into these policies. What he advises most of his clients to do is take the highest deductible they can, then put aside that amount of deductible in some low earning liquid account. Now when you have an accident you "pay your self" and keep your insurance rates low.
I don't think there's any debate about the benefits of a high deductible, or that you should avoid claiming on insurance if you judge that the extra expenditure is worth saving your claim-free status.
I'm in the UK, so I can't help but assume there are differences in the insurance market. I have a comprehensive insurance policy that covers buildings, contents and accidental damage, and that covers things like smartphones too. Despite a couple of previous claims for stolen and damaged electronics, the rates are pretty good. The marginal cost for accidental damage is minimal.
And even for healthcare and liability you can opt for high deductibles. (Though in some countries buying comprehensive health insurance perhaps via your employer even is either mandatory or tax advantaged. The tax advantage might be big enough to change the calculations.)
I pay $45.00 a year for a $2,062, no-deductible policy on my MacBook Pro through State Farm. I'd have to have the MacBook for 45 years for the premiums to even equal the payout on loss.
22 years if you invest the premiums at 7%. (At 45 years you'd have $12,858.70.) Add this up for all the other non-catastrophic items you have insurance for.
I know when you're young 45 years seems like it'll never happen, but if you're lucky it does.
Take a look at any chart of the S&P 500 over decades. What matters is the day you invest, and the day you cash out. The wiggles in between mean nothing.
Buying another laptop doesn't change the math.
If you're consistently having losses that makes insuring you unprofitable, you're likely to see large escalations on your premiums. Insurance companies do keep tabs on this, and premiums are customized to the individual customer. You may be paying higher rates on car and home policies than others.
If you're well aware of the true costs of those choices, and choose them rationally, there's no problem with that.
Lots of people don't know that, though. The prof who taught me accounting used to work as a car salesman, and he told me that the money is made not by selling cars, but by selling financing to people who refused to understand what the financing cost them. (I say refused because he was a nice guy and would try to explain to them what it would really cost them, and they refused to even hear the explanation.)
I've been around long enough to realize the benefits of self-insuring as much as possible, buying cash instead of financing, and the benefits of long term investing and not worrying about the daily (or even yearly) gyrations in the market.
It's not a joke that dead people statistically have far better investment returns than live ones, because they just let their investments ride instead of trying to time them.
You can't guarantee 100% expense coverage during random events. Not everybody has thousands of dollars laying around in emergency fund for 12+ months. Committing to an insurance policy is simply a semi-guaranteed safety net.
Have tons of cash? You should still probably look at a cheaper plan with a super high deductible.
I'd buy a cheaper computer before one so expensive it would be a fiscal catastrophe if I lost it. Buying a computer on credit is just as bad, might as well just set fire to money.
In fact, my laptop is a $500 one I bought 2 years ago for travel use and didn't want to be too upset if it was lost/broken/stolen.
My previous one was 10 years old and was a bit heavy :-)
A $500 laptop is garbage and hardly adequate for the use of most of the people that frequent HN. I mean, what does $500 buy you? A shitty TN panel with a subpar resolution, color reproduction and viewing angle, often shoddy build quality, tons of bulk and probably a spinning drive (I wouldn't buy a laptop without a SSD today).
Not everybody on the planet needs something svelte and sexy, but for those of us who work on their machines a $500 POS doesn't cut it.
I did work on an Acer C7 ($200 with about $200 worth of SSD+Memory and a $100 23" LCD when I was home, total cost $500) with Ubuntu for about half a year. I initially bought the machine to travel with, and it became a workstation when another machine malfunctioned. I do a mixture of C, Python, Javascript, and Clojure development. It was absolutely fine. Clojure needed a settings tweak to bootstrap the repl properly (it was slow at over a minute), but I never left the repl, so it was a one time cost. C/Python/JS have compilers that were fast even on a dual-core Celeron. tmux/bash/vim were fast (as always).
I did everything on that machine up to and including playing TFC via Steam. It ran an IRC client, Chrome, Firefox, VirtualBox for Windows, and my xterm w/tmux. I don't know that I'd give up my rMBP for it, but I did a lot of work on the chromebook.
As far as a developer machine goes, a $300 special 14-15" screen plus $200 of RAM+SSD would probably be fine for 99% of what I do. This likely doesn't work for those who need Photoshop, do video editing, or need to rebuild their OS (rebuilding world in FreeBSD on the thing would have been a bit much). If you're slinging JS, Python, Ruby, Erlang, Clojure, Java or something similar and you can't get by on 16GB of RAM and a 128GB SSD, something is atypical.
You do have a good point, a $500 laptop doesn't make for a great development machine. But that's not what I use it for, I use it as a travel machine. (It can be used for dev in a pinch, and I carry along a full size $9.99 keyboard and wireless mouse for that purpose.)
I use a desktop for dev built with about $600 in parts from newegg, excluding the display. I do get a bit spendy on the display, as that is the most bang for the buck value to me. None of the high end laptops have a display large enough for dev for me. Portability and dev are at odds.
But this thread is about insurance to protect against the loss of a high end laptop. I presume that someone doing serious computer work is making enough money that they don't actually need insurance to cover the loss of even a high end laptop, and the premiums hence won't be worth it.
BTW, my laptop is an ASUS X202E. It's small, and the build quality is surprisingly good. You can also get usable laptops from the pawn shop for $150. A bonus is you'll never have to worry about someone stealing it :-)
What is stopping me from putting away in a saving account (or any separate account) some 20-30 bucks every month/year so I can retrieve them later in case I need them to replace my laptop/phone/tablet/whatever, instead of giving more than what I'd need to somebody else and effectively lose that money?
Just a note to anyone here who may be having this problem: I had an early 2011 MBP, the GPU died three times in three months. Apple charged me $300 to fix it the first time, did it for free the second time because it was still under repair warranty, and then replaced the machine entirely with a brand new 15" MBPr the third time. Obviously, the fact that it failed three times in as many months is unacceptable (and probably uncommon) but if you're struggling with this, do set up a genius bar appointment and see if they can do anything for you.
I was sitting in an Apple store getting the battery replaced on my MacBook Air. It only lasted 300 cycles instead of the 1,000 it is supposed to. My battery replacement was free despite being outside the 1 year warranty.
Next to me a woman had brought in her laptop because of problems (did not overhear what), and they replaced it for free despite it being 3 years old.
I definitely agree that the first step with Apple stuff is to see what they'll do for you. Hitting the Apple store is the best way to do that, but they're not everywhere. I wonder if the mail-in folks have as much latitude to please the customer. (And of course if you mail it in, you're missing your computer for at least a week or two.)
If you go to the store, you're missing it for days as well. I was told a repair would take 3-5 biz days after I dropped it off - drop off on Monday, Tuesday is first biz day, etc. So.. effectively up to 1 week no computer, out min $300, and no replacement in the meantime.
>I had a hunch that the problem was related to the thermal paste: When I disassembled it the first time, I had to scrape some thermal pads from under the Thunderbolt controller and the system hub. This left a large gap between the heat spreader and the chip. I’d tried to fill the gap with an extra big gob of thermal paste, but I suspected that the paste hadn’t gotten a good seal.
Well yeah, that's a problem as thermal paste is only meant to fill in the microscopic irregularities of the contact surfaces and isn't some magical thermal bridge. Thermal paste has thermal properties on par with most condiments. Thermal pads are particularly bad. I would use a metal shim to bridge such a gap, not just more thermal paste.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: while the "giant aluminum heatsink" idea generally works pretty well for the MacBooks and has for some time, it's not the same as if Apple were to really fix the thermal engineering in their machines: The machines could run downright cool if only Apple were to steal some ideas from Lenovo and Asus.
As a side benefit, Apple could begin referring to the machines as "laptops" again in their marketing from time to time (which they have abstained from for at least the last 5+ years).
To your second point, I doubt anyone will call anything a laptop ever again unless it runs at or below room temperature. There is a volume of evidence[0] that hot objects placed on the male genitals for an extended period of time can have a negative impact on fertility (and who knows what else, e.g. birth defects? Since it is likely damaging the semen).
The liability issues are just too great. We're talking class action levels of expenditure.
I don't understand this claim. They are still calling hot devices laptops today. Do you mean that at some point in the future they will stop, and then they will never again call these devices laptops?
That's true, but I have a hard time believing it has anything to do with the fact that their laptops can get really hot. It's clearly marketing to differentiate themselves from their competitors.
Apple stopped using the word 'laptop' when they were still struggling with trying to put a G5 in a portable computer that didn't require jet engine fans.
I think "laptop" is one step below "luggable" on the list of uncool things to call a portable computer. I doubt they'd want to return to using that word.
Well, as a consumer rather than a phone manufacturer, I certainly appreciate living in the EU. For a several-hundred-€ phone to not be expected to last two years is a pretty depressing position.
What are you talking about? I can get a €20 Samsung in any place that still sells dumbphones. I got a €30 Nokia 5 years ago and it still works splendid.
This is what drives me insane about the state of modern electronic device quality. It seems the less you pay, the longer it lasts. This is completely the opposite of how it is with traditional goods like furniture, utensils, tools, and so on. Maybe it's over-engineering, maybe it's forced obsolescence, maybe it's something beyond my comprehension. But it stinks.
I think that's partly because by the time those components get to the cheap product they've been out in the wild for several years and improved substantially over time. The same thing happens with cars. Today, buying the top of the line BMW or Mercedes almost guarantees you more electrical/functional issues than a mid or entry level model where the technology is flowing down but been in the market for 3 - 7 + years and significantly improved.
Well, a more expensive phone has way more (hardware) features, and thus way more points of failure. Makes perfect sense to me, though I do understand your position.
Snow Leopard has been praised as the best OS X release for focusing almost solely on bug fixing. I wish releases such as this were more common both in soft- and in hardware.
> Well, a more expensive phone has way more (hardware) features, and thus way more points of failure.
That's an excellent point. Nokia of old was often associated with build quality, but the more advanced you got, the more stuff would break. Their cheaper Symbian phones tended to last forever, but the N-series, especially the N900, had more hardware issues than their cheaper brethren. Given that the N900 was basically a full fledged computer in a phone form factor there were a lot of potential points of failure, the biggest of which was the faulty USB port.
> Snow Leopard has been praised as the best OS X release for focusing almost solely on bug fixing.
That's the last version of OS X I have used on a daily basis, and from what I've heard I missed out on a ton of new bugs introduced in Lion and up. Of course my aging Mac mini CoreDuo, even with a Core2Duo upgrade, is no longer fast enough for daily use and won't take a newer OS anyway. I'm not buying another Mac for a long time (if ever) as I can't justify the expense, but given what I've heard about Yosemite's stability maybe that's a good thing. OpenBSD runs great on my current self-built system so I don't really have a need for OS X anymore.
I really enjoyed using Snow Leopard, skipped the Lion and Moutain Goat upgrades but did go with Mavericks, had no problems whatsoever, plus Yosemite has been fine for me, if not a teeny bit sluggish for me. But what widespread stability issues have you heard of? I haven't had any problems.
I am still on Mavericks at work, thank goodness for the fix for multiple screens as Mountain Lion would be useless!
Maybe cheap phones last longer because you use them less. In my experience is is usually the moving parts that break (switches and sockets). I want a device designed to work without any physical switches.
OK, sorry. My broader point, though, is that cell phones are in most cases priced in a dishonest way by hiding the cost of the phone in different places and saying the phone is only however much money.
In Australia, there is a minimum 1-year warranty, which is extended 'a reasonable amount' if the product is sold as a quality item (ie: 'put your money where your mouth is').
It was funny watching Apple a while back market its products to consumers as a quality item, but tell the government that it was 'just another computer', because they didn't want to honour their warranties past 1 year.
Can I just send my MBP Late 2011 to you so that you can send it to Apple to be replaced? The #mbp2011 group should really just set up a bunch of people there so that we can send it to Apple Norway to be replaced since MBP's warranties are worldwide anyway.
Checking the Apple legalese [1] [2] it seems that we can "choose" between Apple One Year Limited Warranty and consumer law [3] which happens to be 6 (England and Wales) or 5 (Scotland) years. Can anyone clarify that for me please? My screen is flickering on certain gradient backgrounds but my 1 year warranty was over before I noticed it.
Reading your first two links makes it seem like you get both, given that your statutory rights aren't affected by Apple's own warranty, so for the coverage for the first or 3 years you can get anything solved via AppleCare, and for the remaining 2 or 3 you'd be making the claim to Apple (if you bought it via their stores or their website) as part of your statutory rights.
In Australia a manufacturer's warranty cannot override your statutory rights. The warranty rights are useful if they are better than your statutory rights though.
Apple can't deny consumer law, so no. In countries like Norway (5 years "right of complaint" for electronics where the manufacturer is obligated to either repair or provide an equivalent product, new or refurbished), Apple has to oblige the consumer, by law.
EU provides 6 years but not from the manufacturer - from the seller. I actually had a problem where Apple told me my manufacturer warranty was up and explained I still had 6 years from the seller (Vodafone) and to go to them. Vodafone pretended the law didn't exist. Eventually Apple were kind enough to replace the device even though they had no obligation to.
I wonder how that applies when you purchase something from an Apple Store, since that means they're both.
I remember seeing a page on the Apple website listing info for extended warranties in EU member countries, which I assume this specific defect in the 2011 Macbooks is covered by.
I've been with almost all UK phone companies (I used to buy a new iPhone each year for dev reasons but run simultaneous 2 year contracts meaning I had to be with two phone companies at a time) and they are all terrible.
Strong consumer protection is one of the core goals of the EU. http://ec.europa.eu/justice/consumer-marketing/index_en.htm: "The Charter of Fundamental Rights and the European treaties since the Single European Act guarantee a high level of consumer protection in the EU. It is also a general objective defined in Article 12 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the EU."
It isn't 6 years throughout the EU and for every product, though. The EU directive (= the text the EU writes that tells member countries what to achieve through their laws) states (paraphrasing a lot) that consumers may expect a device they buy to be what is advertised and to last as long as a typical device of what is advertised lasts (Business-to-business is different; there, it is more 'buyer beware')
As is typical for EU directives, that isn't very specific (partly for the better, as being specific would mean that such directives need to be revised all the time) and only describes a goal, not how to reach it.
Individual countries will vary in how they translate that into law. Apparently, Norway went for a very strong consumer protection.
6 years seems great an all as the consumer, but I'd imagine the retailers/manufacturers are not just taking this extra burden all on themselves, but likely passing it down the chain to the consumer via higher purchase price, higher contract price, decreased service quality, fewer staffers, or... etc...
Needless to say, I sure wouldn't even want a smart phone from 6 years ago. People get upset at the USA's more-or-less forced upgrades every 2ish years, but that cadence does seem to fit the timing of when I start to feel my phone is not up to par... 2 or 3 newer generations of devices have come out since my purchase, my battery is starting to lose life (usually never covered by any warranty as this is a standard "wear-n-tear" item like car tires). I'd think a 2 or 3 year warranty should suffice in most cases.
>> "Needless to say, I sure wouldn't even want a smart phone from 6 years ago."
It covers all items though, not just smartphones. If I buy a fridge or an oven I expect it last 6 years minimum. Also, I'm regularly surprised by people using very old smartphones (4-5 years).
At this point there's little reason a smartphone couldn't last 6 years. My current device (a Sony Xperia Z3) has a quad-core 2.3GHz processor and 3GB of RAM, my desktop computer 6 years ago was less powerful than the device sitting in my pocket!
Sure, I wouldn't expect to play all the fancy high-end mobile games (like I ever play mobile games...) that come out 6 years from now, but I see absolutely no reason I couldn't continue to use the phone for email, web browsing, facebook, etc.
It is member of EEA [1] though which means they "adopt almost all EU legislation related to the single market, except laws on agriculture and fisheries."
Shame that the holes are drilled so haphazardly. If only for the aesthetics, print out a template with the holes drawn on a circle, evenly spaced. Then use that as a guide to drill. Or find a local hacker group with a CNC drilling machine which will drill the holes with perfect alignment. Done right, it may have looked little different than a case with holes machined that way by the manufacturer.
He probably drilled them while filled with rage. Which is probably what I would have done. I was surprised the holes were so small. I would have just went over kill.
I had a mini-ITX case where the AGP port (yes, it was a while ago) was right up against one of the walls, so the GPU fan was pinned against the wall. As expected, the machine crashed every time I started up a game. We fixed it by drilling holes in the wall right where the GPU fan faces it. The next version of the same case came with an array of holes drilled in that exact same spot, so I guess we were on to something.
This is one of the philosophical beefs I've developed against discrete GPU's, particularly in laptops. I've been using 13" unibodies with iGP's (Sandy, Ivy, Hassy vintages) and haven't had any of these problems. Bad stick of RAM, sure, but I blame samsung or whoever their supplier was. But most of the MBP deaths I've heard about from friends have been with AMD/nVidia GPU daughter cards on the 15's. My rMBP 13" also has side vents and vents under the screen which are very much unblocked and unobstructed.
It might be also I don't game on laptops...I save that for a desktop with a GTX670 card and plenty of fans..
Why the beef against discrete GPUs? Shouldn't the complaint be against cases not properly designed to house them? MacBooks also use, quite frustratingly so, damn near the slowest Nvidia mobile GPU you can buy! A newer model might actually run faster and cooler.
Discrete GPUs are soldered to boards using ball-gate arrays, a technique which was invented with lead solder balls in mind. The patent holder died before the EU mandated non-lead solders.
The reason this matters is because the process by which those solder balls are made does not check for the presence of voids in them. At least 10% of these balls (regardless of composition) x-ray as having voids.
GPUs go through the most radical thermal shifts of any surface mounted component. Lead has a sense of humor about that kind of temperature change; tin alloys do not and begin to crack after a sustained number of shifts. This happened on my 2011 MBP which was not used for gaming.
It's worth noting that the iMacs made the same year, where the discrete GPU was a replaceable daughtercard, had a voluntary recall for exactly the same reported video problems. The irony here is that the average cost of having a GPU reballed is about $150US, with a high rate of reliability compared to reflowing. Part of that reliability comes from reballers refusing to use anything but lead.
The EU is directly responsible for this problem but Apple is responsible to its users and with a cash reserve outstripping the US Treasury's, could have absorbed the cost of repairing these MBPs easily.
Can you post a link to the picture of the side vents? I thought all rMBP has vents in the screen hinge area. Also does this feature exist on 15" rMBP too?
I wonder if it's worth the effort sure it may reflow solder if it's hot enough but the high temp lead-free solder or whatever Apple uses may require very high temperatures to get it to melt even a bit.
I've changed enough capacitors on power supplies to know the damn things have solder that's practically indestructible, our old Pace solder station iron cranked to something like 850F and still I'm sitting there 5 or 10 minutes cursing it all the time, and nine more caps to go x two leads each.
Plus that heat would degrade the life of components too so who knows if it's ever worth it. But I guess cheaper than spending thousands on a new Macbook Pro.
Often the issue is the component is sinking most of the heat away from the joint. If the giant chunk of metal your heating can dissipate the power of your soldering iron, you're not gonna heat much up.
Apple moved from PowerPC to Intel because the new generation of PowerPC chips wouldn't run cool enough to put in a laptop.
Intel had long been pushing for cooler chips and longer battery life. Beginning with its Centrino line and the Pentium M processor.
Apple hopped in right after the Core chips landed (dual core), and these chips were amazing for Apple. They could continue with the macbook pro design with a new and faster chip.
Then Intel went on a speed binge again and tried to yield the most bang for your buck, sacrificing thermals and battery life.
Now finally with the Haswell chips they took a step back and tried to improve battery and thermals. And hopefully Broadwell will be even better.
Were Ivy Bridge considered to be OK? I have a 2012 MBP with the top IvyBridge i7 and it gets warm if you play games (in Windows) but I hardly ever hear the fan any other time (I compile C++ on it all the time). I just thought I'd ask as the "dead MacBook" stories frighten me.
I don't think he got the retina MacBook. I got the retina macbook and have never had heat issues or noise issues, the fans are super quiet. That said, I'm on my second battery-upper shell combo, and my third screen-hinge combo, so take it for what it's worth.
>third screen-hinge combo
yeah, but in all fairness I haven't found a modern laptop that does that right outside of convertible tablets that are notoriously beefed up in that regard.
You'd think after 10 years having model after model of aluminium built laptops, Apple would have found a way to solve the heat issues they always have... but nope, they still think it's a good idea to put the heat exhaust vent right up against the bottom lip of the screen where it is still blocked when the machine is in use.
Where else can one put air vents on a laptop? The sides are taken up by expansion ports and speakers. The front is blocked by the battery. The bottom is often obstructed by blankets, clothing, etc. The top is for the keyboard, trackpad, and palm rest.
Putting vents at the hinge actually makes the most sense. It guarantees ventilation ports won't be fully obstructed. The vents face away from the user, reducing fan noise. Air ducts are short, since that area is close to the CPU/GPU.
It's hard to cool a laptop that can generate 85 watts of heat. Moreso if one cares about it looking nice and being thin. You may not like the trade-offs Apple chooses, but they put a lot of thought into their industrial design.
The thinness is the critical problem, and to be honest with most consumer electronics (phones especially; please give me a larger, replaceable battery), I wish they would stop the race to the bottom and instead deliver more functional and longer-lasting productions.
I have an rMBP 15" and a 15" Lenovo Y500. The Y500 cost less than half of the rMBP for equivalent performance but the experience, battery, screen, trackpad, etc are of course much better on the Mac. But for intensive tasks, even with nearly identical internals and the same OS, the Y500 is far more pleasant to use. Say what you want about Lenovo and the terrible things they've done to their laptops in the last few years, but the Y500 is designed to expel heat in the least obtrusive manner possible and it does an amazing job.
At full bore, all cores, maybe a game, the Y500 happily pushes a lot of air out the side vent, and the keyboard, trackpad, bezels, etc., stay very cool.
With the same workload, the rMBP gets very, very hot and seems to blow a small amount of air out of the keyboard (?), occasionally burning my fingers, It's loud and very uncomfortable to use.
In a sense it definitely makes me feel like I overpaid for the extra speed, since I can't use it comfortably anyway.
My Thinkpad has air vents on the left hand side, and also on the back. Except, the ones on the back aren't blocked like they are on Macbooks, because the Thinkpads design is based on what is sensible rather than on what will make the thinnest possible computer.
"Thick and bulky, with a keyboard studded with enough auxiliary buttons to look like a space shuttle control panel, the T420 is as old-school as a laptop can be."
I mean, it's all a matter of trade-offs, as the parent says. Personally I have been using my Macbook mostly as a desktop replacement, so in hindsight I would probably trade the small form factor for better cooling and more sustained performance, for people using a laptop more "dynamically" (carrying it around daily), I can see mobility to come first.
EDIT: Have you ever owned an ultrabook or a netbook ? I went from a T61p to a Macbook Air the the increase in mobility was significant. I used it on bed, on the couch, on the train, with no discomfort at all even after hours on end, unlike the bulkier laptops I owned before.
I don't get this recent idea that a laptop needs to be as thin and light as an envelope to be "mobile". I have as much "mobility" with this Thinkpad as someone with a Macbook air. Next you'll be telling me I'm sacrificing mobility with my phone because it's twice as thick as an iPhone 6. This argument seems like it would only come from somebody who has sacrificed usability for thinness and needs to come up with a way to justify it. Does a Macbook have "increased mobility" over thicker laptops? I severely doubt it.
The Thinkpad may have more buttons than a Macbook, but I've never seen this as a disadvantage... The Thinkpad keyboard is much nicer to use than the Macbook keyboard. I've owned both. I'll admit that the Macbook keyboard looks nicer though. But that's the point isn't it. Macs are for people who care what their computers look like more than how useful they are.
>I don't get this recent idea that a laptop needs to be as thin and light as an envelope to be "mobile".
Weight is hardly a big differentiator for MacBook Pros, as I understand it. The difference in weight between the ThinkPad T420, which the grandparent mentions, and the latest 15" MacBook Pro isn't that great: they weigh 4.9 lb (2.24 kg) and 4.5 pounds (2.06 kg) respectively according to the official specs. I suppose the ThinkPad will have a slightly heavier power adapter as well.
Exactly, this idea that Apple have sacrificed things like useful ports and useful heat vents, for mobility, it's just flat out wrong. They have sacrificed those things yes, but not for mobility, for looking pretty.
As someone who's gone from boxy laptops to an Air... yes, there is a difference in "mobility". I take my Air out to a cafe or a park or whatever to get work done a LOT more than I took my old Powerbooks.
Heavier computers are something I had to make a decision to go out with. I knew I would be lugging it around on my shoulder and feeling grumpy. But the Air? It, plus a Wacom tablet next to it, takes up less room than the hardback sketchbooks I used to haul around as a matter of course. And I can sit out under a tree on a nice day and do finished, full-color art with a lot less mass than hauling a paint box around. (The fact that a full charge lasts most of a day helps a lot, too. I only take the power brick when I'm going out of town.)
Now, I will admit that I do also care about how stuff looks. I'm an artist; it's my job. But my experience is that there is something really, really different about having a laptop that does everything you need, and weighs less than a hardbound book.
Taking your point to the next logical conclusion you would be okay taking a desktop computer with twin monitors instead of s MacBook Air.
I mean be serious. Thinness and weight are critical to a non insignificant group of people. They could be people like myself who have to take his laptop to/fro work slongside gym wear and s number of books. I couldn't physically csrry s heavier laptop.
Weight may be, but thinness isn't. My X230 thinkpad is the same weight as a macbook air, but thicker. More ports, better cooling, and infinitely easier to do replace/alter anything to do with the machine.
I haven't had any of the ultra thin ultrabooks. I do have a netbook (slightly older Acer model), but the screen was too limiting on it. So now I use a Thinkpad X230. The differences between the X230 and my work laptop (HP Elitebook 8470) is night and day -- I have no problem carying the X230, but wouldn't dream of lugging around the 8470.
How did you get your T420 to have no heating issues? What processor/GPU combo do you have?
I have a T420 and have major heating issues with it playing games. I've tried everything: thinkpad fan control that turns the fan up to 7000RPM, clearing everything out with compressed air, replacing the thermal paste..
After a few years of observations, I think the problem may lie in software.. It seems like when I'm playing games and what not my CPU gets turboboosted, which stays there until it reaches about 90C, when it gets severely throttled, killing framerate and all. I use linux, so right now I have several scripts that goes and disables turbo boost. However, even at that point, it still will boost the CPU when running certain GL applications... Not sure why.
In fact, I've noticed this issue on all Sandybridge laptops I own/have encountered: the 2011 MBP, a dell inspiron... Ivy bridge computers seems to have no issue with this (W530, 2012 MBP).
My wife uses my older T420 with a dual core i7 and an nvidia workstation GPU of some sort as a Sims 3/4 machine with Windows 8 and never has heat issues. I'm currently using a W530 with Red Hat 6 for work and it gets hot occasionally but never enough to feel more than mildly uncomfortable to the touch and certainly never enough to cause any short term problems. Granted, I only ever use it for running a few VMs, not for any games.
I wonder how many of these Macbook issues stem from popularity. If you look at any vendor's forums, you will find a bunch of posts about issues that a lot of people are having. They never make news, though, because how many people own an HP 5370-2wt20 laptop? A lot of people own HP laptops, but they don't have one model that makes up a large percentage of the laptop market. Macs, on the other hand, have a single (ish) model that makes up a large percentage of the laptop market. If there is an issue that affects 1% of HP 8209-c50mg buyers versus 1% of Macbook Pro buyers, only the Macbook numbers will be large enough to make news.
I've wondered that too about other manufactures defects, that they probably suffer the same flaws with the bad ball solder on the GPUs but they didn't sell the same numbers as a MBP so it goes unnoticed.
I skipped the Nvidia option and use the onboard Intel graphics, because I don't play games on laptops. All laptops get hot when used for gaming. I have a separate desktop for gaming.
> I have a T420 and have major heating issues with it playing games.
In my experience, almost no consumer laptop is designed with a gaming thermal load in mind (aka heavy cpu + max gpu for extended periods of time). I'm not even sure it's possible in a conventional laptop case.
... I know this is completely useless advice, but don't do heavy gaming on a laptop without expecting problems. There are other form factors much better thermally suited.
tl;dr: mobility/thermal-tolerance/performance, pick two
One thing is that the T420 is not sold as a consumer laptop. Under Windows, running AutoCAD/SolidWorks will drive temperature of 90+ degrees. This laptop is suppose to be for those kind of work. Furthermore, I'm not even running heavy games. I'm running things like FTL, or older 3D games like RollerCoaster Tycoon 3, or even sometimes just watching YouTube videos at 1080p.
Regardless, thermal performance under heavy load in laptop should either be tolerated, or the manufacturers should disable higher clock speeds.
My W530 on the other hand has no issue with heat. Heavy gaming puts it to about 75-80C. It is also much bulkier in size.
Edit: my dedicated graphics is off most of the time. Even then, CPU alone can drive the temperature up through the roof.
Every heating issue I had with my T420 is solved by opening up the laptop and thoroughly cleaning with compressed air. It will stays good for a few years until the dust gathers up again.
Do you have numbers on what your computer's temperature is at when it's idling and when it's on full load (CPU maxed out)? At idle I'm coming in at around 52C with ambient temperature at around 20C. Full load I can go to 90C, when the computer will automatically downclock, which is something that's not desirable.
I have opened up my laptop more than once and cleaned all the areas i can, but I still can't seem to get the temperature to go down like others claim. At this point I'm considering replacing my fan assembly and see if I have better luck but haven't gotten around to do so.
My x220 has air vents at the back, on the left side and several at the bottom of its base. Even when it heats up the temperature stays very much controlled.
I believe it has an Nvidia card in it. While I did game on it awhile ago I haven't for several years now. Possibly I haven't pushed the hardware long enough to cause GPU thermal issues to arise.
Most laptops have the batteries on the back, making the front available for connectors. Most laptops have ventilation on a side, and some complement it with bottom holes.
Also, Apple could place their CPU/GPU wherever they wanted.
Thanks for pointing this out; I used the original EeePC for a long time but could only remember that I had had a laptop where the heat exhausted through the keyboard, not which model. Interesting but once it really started to kick up, this may not actually be a good option.
That laptop is twice as thick as a rMBP and puts out less than half as much heat. Even if Apple put vents in those places, it wouldn't cool adequately; the vent area would be half that of the Dell. To get the same temperatures, airflow would have to be 4x faster than in the Dell. And as I said before, vents on the bottom increase the risk of overheating when used on a bed or carpet.
Critics hold Apple to a higher standard than other companies, and the media reports Apple's failings more than other companies. There are tons of examples: iPhone 6 bending (it's just as sturdy as other phones), solder separation issues (rare; limited to a few first-gen models), overheating (again, rare and usually first-gen models). Other manufacturers have similar issues, but you never hear about them because they don't get eyeballs. Few care if some model of HP laptop overheats.
In general, Apple makes quality hardware. If it were otherwise, they wouldn't be able to charge so much.
Edit: I have no idea why this comment has been downvoted. Anyone want to clue me in?
"In general, Apple makes quality hardware. If it were otherwise, they wouldn't be able to charge so much."
My experience of Apple hardware, from owning it myself and from seeing how it fares for those around me who also use it, is that it's pretty, but poorly designed, lacking in features, and very unreliable.
They are able to charge so much because they market it well. Also, OSX is a decent OS in comparison to Windows, for those who can't be bothered to learn Linux.
I administer about 40 servers under linux (well mostly with Chef and docker), I used to use linux on my main computer for 6 years (debian, gentoo and ubuntu). I have a freebsd server at home that I use for fun. And yet despite all that, my main computer for work nowadays is a mbp retina because I like OS X as an OS and as a GUI (despite some of it's bugs and annoyances). So I don't really agree with you.
In term of hardware, I've had a few lemons and I've complained loudly but under Applecare, Apple replaced the mbp retina I had that failed 3 times with a new model (which runs perfectly fin) so I can't really complain.
I've also had very long lived devices from Apple, my first ibook lasted 4-5 years until my parents sat on it, my wife's old powerbook lasted 6 years until it was stolen, my first generation iphone still works perfectly fine...
One thing I did learn though is never to buy a first generation model from Apple, they tend to be unreliable (at least in my anecdotical experience)
I don't really think that "learning Linux" makes it a better OS. Investing your time into Linux, maybe, but some of us want our OS to be time savers, not a time sinks.
I hate laptops with vents on the bottom. I can't put it on my lap without constantly thinking did my leg obstructed the hole, I can't put it on the bed because the vents will be clogged. The only place where laptops with vents on the bottom works well is the desk.
Is that "reality distortion field" jab pointed at me? The best laptop in my life is/was my trusty Thinkpad w520. No vents at the bottom, no overheating problems (two previous laptops were HP EliteBooks - a toy computers compared to Lenovo). Now I'm working on MacBook Pro, and yes, it's slicker than w520, but it have problems with heat.
I had not noticed that but it is true! Does anyone know if the case acts as a good heatsink? I always assumed that was why they went with aluminium, other than it looking great.
I'm sure Apple has done some pretty exhaustive (no pun intended) thermodynamic analysis of the case design.
I have three macbooks, two airs and a 13" mpbr, and none have had any thermal issues at all, even in the heat of summer.
If you are using a laptop in a way that generates that much heat, you probably get about 1 hour of battery life, which sort of defeats the purpose of having a laptop in the first place. A larger fan or heavier case material would also make the laptop less user-friendly for the vast majority of users.
I owned an early Macbook Pro 2011 model. I had the logic board replaced 4 times and the 4th time paid out of pocket. After that one burnt out I gave up and bought a new computer. Simply the worst computer I ever owned.
For what it's worth, Hewlett-Packard had a very similar problem with a line of theirs using the same GPU (and the same lead-free solder), and Microsoft's Red Ring of Death is fundamentally the same problem.
The fact that you can only get a discrete GPU'd MBP now if you buy the most expensive model while the Iris Pro is capable of doing <i>everything</i> a discrete GPU did indicates that Apple's cut their losses with this technology. The motherboard's fine. The decision to accede to EU environmental mandates was the point of failure.
No one in the industry sufficiently tested leadfree solder in GPU BGA mounts before going into production and to be fair, it was a year before people started noticing failures. Apple's dismal head-burying response only made it worse.
I only replaced my logic board once before it died, but I consider it the best -and- worst computer I ever owned. Outside of the fact that the board design was $*#$#387 and that it didn't have USB 3, it was a great computer in that it was fast, solid, light and easily upgraded. As prices came down, I kept upgrading the RAM and storage.
I have question related to this issue. Which MacBook model, new, refurbished or used, should I buy if I want it to last as long as possible and be useful for doing OS X-specific programming tasks?
2010 MBP were very good, 2011 MBP had the issues highlighted in the article, 2012 MBP seem to be ok.
2012 Retina MBP are generally good but have some known issues (eg LG display losing pixels). Mine's currently getting a bunch of things fixed which will probably end up being a new keyboard, logic board, and another LCD.
2013-2014 rMBP seem to have the 2012 issues fixed.
Airs are ok so long as you don't intend on flogging them. They can have overheating issues too.
I have a 2012 MBP (non retina). Never ever had any problems with it at all, runs cool and I compile all day long (C++). Not much gaming going on, but when I do (under Windows on it) it goes mental with the fans. It is the top i7 one with the dedicated nVidia GPU in it, but I have no complaints about it (so far).
EDIT: I must also state that it has a plethora of ports on it that are lacking on the retina models. Gigabit ethernet (with AVB for audio, hurray), Thunderbolt (or Mini DisplayPort for driving a screen/TV with audio over it for HDMI too) FireWire (for audio interfaces), two USB3 ports, SD slot, mic input, audio out (headphone or optical S/PDIF), button to indicate amount of battery remaining (so you don't have to turn it on to find out) and a DVDR/CD drive. Can't beat them in my opinion.
I chuckled observing the MacBook Air user with his bag of appendages for ethernet and powering a display. Sort of defeated having the super slim device!
Girlfriend has a 2008 MB that I bought off Ebay, other than the hard drive dying (and giving me ample warning and time to replace first), it's had no problem. Since it's limited to 4GB RAM, it isn't really ideal for development, but she runs Photoshop and Illustrator on it (albeit, a bit slow for my taste).
I personally own a late 2011 MBP (same as the article, I believe) with 8GB RAM, also no problems, running a pretty standard development set up.
I have another 2012 MBP through work which is a bit beefed up, though still nothing fancy. Also no problems. Also manage a couple of 2010 Mac servers there which have been running steady since late 2010.
Oh, and none of these have SSDs. So, say what you will about non-SSD, they work well enough for development.
All in all, have to agree -- whatever fits your budget, at least in my personal experience, will work pretty well. I know that people do certainly have issues with them occasionally, but when I compare my luck with them to my luck with various other brands (Compaq, Dell, etc), they've lasted significantly longer with few or no problems.
If that's a 2008 MacBook that you have, it should be able to (unofficially) take at least 6GB RAM. I have a 2007 MacBook with 6GB RAM and I've never had any problems with the RAM upgrade (running Lion & Mountain Lion, at least). Try looking up your model number in the small print here:
I'd be interested in this as well - has Apple fixed this heat issue in the 2012 MacBook Pro (non-Retina) models that they still have on sale in the Apple Store?
I'm going to say MacBook Air - it runs cool equipped with solid-state components and integrated graphics. Whichever one you choose, make sure you get the SSD storage option, as it will run much cooler and simply perform better.
It amazes me that Apple still ships computers with spinning hard drives in 2014, let alone a laptop.
I have hard drives fail on me and SSDs fail on me at work. It is far easier to get data from a hard disk in the case of failure, which is why I still use disks at the moment. Of course, backups are a necessity in all occasions but I would rather trust a spinning platter than can be taken out of a defective hard disk (with a bust circuit board) and put in another disk than a bunch of chips on a board.
Anecdotal, but I've bought refurbished stuff a couple times and had to repeatedly replace logic boards and other parts. I probably wouldn't do that again.
I had almost the exact same issue with my 2009 17' MacBookPro and when it finally wouldn't boot up anymore I took it to the closest Apple store near me. They told me they could do an out of warranty fix of the damaged part (whatever it was, something on the logic board) and it would be around $300. I agreed and they sent it in to their warehouse to get fixed, a few days later I get a call telling me that the part that was needed was severely backordered and I could either wait or they would give me a refurbished 2013 15' MacBookPro with comparable specs to my old MBP plus AppleCare and a bunch of other nice things. Needless to say that was the best $300 I ever spent, had they not been able to do anything with it I suspect I would be trying more things like drilling holes in the case ;)
This guy works for iFixit and is unaware that using a large amount of thermal paste is a terrible idea? Large amounts make heat transfer worse, not better. I guess you can't expect too much from a site that hawks its tools/repair over accurate reporting...
This story is awesome. It would be hilarious if the OP ever tried to sell his laptop. I can imagine him trying to explain to a layperson why all of the drilled holes in the bottom are actually a benefit and not a problem.
"I can imagine him trying to explain to a layperson"
Its a 2011. Trying to sell that in, lets say, 2019, it'll sound a lot like when I sold my 1997 Saturn in 2013 with a hole for a ham radio antenna, in other words it'll be so old no one will care. Also they were more interested in the cracked heater core, broken sunroof opener, leaking sunroof, worn out brakes, and high oil consumption, than being worried about a little hole.
If I were the OP i would sell his "speed enhanced" laptop right after this operation. He mentions having to heat mainboard in the oven. Actually this operation doesn't work for any long term period and during each heating session he risks frying some other components on the board.
I think the picture in the header says it all, on one side I can see very dirty fans and on the other side the improved design.
The first thing I would have tried is to replace the fans. I had to do this with other laptops I have had in the past (HP mostly) but never with the two models of MBP (and I run pretty hard too), so I guess it has to do with the model as he mentioned.
While I sympathise with the idea of improving the design of a product massively consumed, I first try to think that the engineers did a well design and try to look for the malfunctioning component to replace.
I too had a late 2011 MB Pro with over-heating issues that led to 3 bad GPU's over three years (only paid for one of the repairs). Just last month I parked my ass in my local Apple store and told them I wasn't leaving without a brand new replacement. It did not take very long for the store manager to cave and I walked out with a brand new 2014 MB Pro. They won't formally acknowledge that their is an inherent issue with the 2011 models but I got the impression they just need you to make a big enough stink before they can replace.
I've got an early 2011 MBP which has exactly the same issue - I'm on the third logic board (GPU and a chipset both went on separate occasions within 3-year warranty) and second battery (battery wasn't due to heat though, just capacity), I use it heavily for programming (compiling) and rendering, so CPUs are often maxed out.
I try and make sure it's ventilated properly (when I use it on my lap I often hold it in the air when the CPUs are busy and the temp is rising), but I'm not convinced the design is good for cooling in general.
Do not replace the logic board a 4th time. Any Apple store manager is authorized to replace with a brand new 2014 model after three repairs especially for 2011 model owners. I just got my brand new replacement last month.
Irony, I am in apple repair center while writing this. I have a 9 month old macboook within span of 6 months the connector cable between hard disk and logic board got corrupted, I have no idea why this happened twice (even the apple customer rep. are also clueless) . As they don't have any warehouse in New Delhi(India), they order it from Bangalore(India) and take 5 days to replace it last time and same this time,. Anyone having idea why this hard disk cable corruption issue is happening again and again?
I'm all for the repair ethic of iFixIt, but I wonder about the economy of this - besides the huge amount of time and uncertainty (that wouldn't be a good trade-off for anyone who isn't a professional repairer), I'd rather not know what sort of fumes rise off a circuit board when broiling it with a heat gun or taking it out of a hot oven.
Also, at what point is he willing to acknowledge that maybe this thing is not all that well designed, especially going by how widespread this problem seems to be?
I'd rather not know what sort of fumes rise off a circuit board when broiling it with a heat gun or taking it out of a hot oven.
Shouldn't be much in the way of fumes. The circuit board goes through a similar process at manufacturing time. After that, the board is washed to remove excess flux and other gunk. Assuming the OP didn't leave any stickers or such on the circuit board, it should be fine.
As a note to anyone thinking to do something like this... you should only try to reflow the board itself. Take everything apart. Do not, under any circumstances, heat up any kind of battery, or else bad things will happen.
>> Also, at what point is he willing to acknowledge that maybe this thing is not all that well designed, especially going by how widespread this problem seems to be?
Perhaps the bigger question is at what point will Apple acknowledge that it is a real problem?
I have a mid 2009, 13" macbook pro, and when I use it in my bed, I make sure to put it on something that doesnt bend, like a slim large book with a hard cover, or a plastic tray.
I don't really know why it gets hotter over the year. I guess fine dust end up clogging it, and since laptops are very slim, everything is packed, so it might be pretty hard to remove that dust. Some dust can stick to some surfaces, but I'm not sure.
One thing for sure is that I wont use it for gaming or anything that might get it hot.
I have an old Dell Precision m4600 laptop. Big, bulky and heavy, but cooling is excellent, even though it has air intake on the bottom. Discrete Nvidia GPU running at full clock (because of an external UHD display) and temperature constantly about 60 degrees Celsius. And cleaning the fans/heatsinks is dead-easy and can be done in 10 minutes.
Do newer MBPs have those overheating problems solved? I was thinking of buying one as my next laptop.
Most (all?) component manufacturers use lead-free solder these days. Lead alloy solders are harder to come by since they're generally only used by hobbyists who find them easier to work with.
Well that and everything else too. There are any number of toxic chemicals/elements all across that board, from inside the ICs (does any of it vaporize out?) to the plastic PCBs, whatever is in the solder, etc etc. It's hardly meant to be 'food safe'.
Exact same thing happened to me. I'd turn on an old 2009 era MBP and get a white screen, no chime and the whole thing would run really hot. Tried everything including firmware updates, PRAM resets and nothing would do it.
Instead of putting it an oven, I turned it upside down, put a heating pad on it and placed the whole thing under a blanket for an hour. Turned on just fine after that.
Heat/GPU issue killed my first 17" Apple Macbook Pro. Just as 3 year AppleCare ended.
Heat seems to be the reason ethernet in my mac mini randomly dies every few days and the fix is rebooting the switch it's connected to.
https://discussions.apple.com/thread/1341108?start=45&tstart...
I believe a heat sensor either correctly or wrongly detects high heat and disconnects ethernet. It's never shutdown completely though.
My last iMac screen was burned in just as 3 year warranty ended due to high cpu heat over the 3 years. The burn in happened right where the cpu was located.
And current imac is even thinner, meaning less space for air to flow, which is why I'm forced to buy Mac Pro for my video editing. iMac would be more than enough for my need but I know the monitor will get burn in after 3 years and so i will just go for mac pro. At least it has good cooling system or so I hear.
I used to work for an import/export packaging place and the owner was a really into high-end electronics. He showed me a trick where you place a waste damaged device into a sealed bag with molecular sieve (kinda like silica but way better) and 24-48 hours later is dry inside and out. I do regular (every 6 months or so) drying maintenance on all my daily use electronics (phone, laptop, etc.) Plus I've fixed many friends phones and laptops using molecular sieve and a mylar zip seal bag. Putting electronics in the oven is risky biz. Rice sometimes works but actually can do more harm than good. Best alternative... through it in the vegetable crisper in your refrigerator. It usually is the least humid place, best for drying.
To anyone who has had extensive issues with MBP's, I managed to get my 2007 replaced for free back in college with a new version by Apple after several unreasonable repairs (2x logic board, 3x LCD, 1x left IO board, 1x top case, 1x touchpad, 1x DVD drive).
Granted, it took a lot of "let me speak to your manager" and I believe needs to still be under Applecare in most instances, but it's always an option to pursue if you have the time and patience.
Thankfully the 2010 I received lasted until this year with no issues, and I finally replaced it after beating it to hell with a 2014 retina MBP that's been running smoothly so far.
My early-2011 MacBook Pro died a few weeks ago after almost four years of quite heavy use. It actually took hardly any convincing to get the people at the Apple store to replace it at their cost - I'm not sure if that's because of Australia's stronger consumer protection law or because they knew how common a problem it is.
They must have applied the heat transfer compound better than before, because with SMCFanControl running a bit higher than normal I haven't seen it go above 65 degrees C much now (admittedly I haven't done much heavy lifting with it yet) and feels cooler to the touch up the top.
I once spilled an entire glass of water into the keyboard of my macbook while it was on. It automatically shut off. I thought I was hosed. I almost smashed it on the table in fury. Luckily I didn't. I quickly removed the battery, took the computer COMPLETELY apart, and blow dried it for a few hours. It came back on and has been working ever since like a charm. Its been over 5 years now. Same with an iPhone 5s. I dropped it into a glass of water. It didn't work for awhile but came around after a few days and worked fine afterwards.
One time I saw it climb as high as 102º C—hot enough to boil water.
If doing anything slightly intensive, my 15" MBPR is the same; I've had it hover at 100-105C for periods. Why not scale down the CPU at crazy temperatures? Intel CPUs have a cutout, but the entire machine needs a more gradual solution. Running at 90C+ is not viable long term.
Now it's over 2 years old, I might just buy a entry level MBP instead rather than maxing out as I usually do. They seem fast enough now and what's the point if I can't even use the full power?
Not to try to convince you to get something different, but FWIW there are more differences in the MBP and MBA lineup than just CPU and GPU. For me, the two major factors were RAM amount (couldn't get 16 GB's with anything but MBP 15" at the time), and ability to hook up multiple external displays. My current setup is the laptop screen + two external displays. At least as of a year ago MBA's and 13" MBP's could do this. At best, you could drive two external displays with a 13" MBP (but not its own screen). USB video cards are a solution, but consider that they drive CPU usage through the roof unless you are staring at a very static screen. I used to use one of these to display my terminal. Then one day I put the browser on this screen and was checking GMail when I heard my laptop basically lift off the desk from the heat and speed of the fans.
Same here. I bought the version with dedicated graphics for some light gaming, but the GPU throttles almost immediately, I doubt I'm getting better performance than I wold have with just Intel integrated graphics.
I have reapplied thermal paste (which improved things a little bit), used a cooling laptop stand (useless), fiddled with smcfancontrol and other applications, to no avail.
But I'm not drilling holes on the case, as someone said it would be hard to explain when reselling it :).
My problem is more with the CPU than GPU. However, there's an app that lets you switch to using the integrated graphics only (which is fine for most situations, unless you plug in an external display) which is well worth trying.
Actually it's my understanding that they are all essentially the same chip cut from the same dye. What differentiates the chips with the higher clock speed from hose with the lower speeds is that they heat up less quickly during testing and were therefore able to be clocked higher for sale.
>Why not scale down the CPU at crazy temperatures?.
Are you kidding me? What's the point of even buying the faster CPU then? You could just, you know, design the computer properly. You hive-minded Apple fans are so unaccustomed to critical thinking that you don't see Tim Cooks writing on the walls.
Is it normal in the US to use Celsius for computer inside temperatures, and Fahrenheit for the oven? Aren't you converting back and forth the whole time?
For temperatures near 100C the conversion is easy.
Ovens report temperatures in F, computers in C, shrug.
In general you use F for human temperatures (air temperature, fever, and cooking), and C for everything else. F has a better range for air and body temperature anyway.
Maybe Europeans will switch to F, and Americans will switch to Km :)
(In case you wonder why F is better: The coldest temperature normally experienced by people is 0F and the typical temperature is near 100F. Unlike C where you go negative, and the typical is 20.)
Unlikely. Celsius degrees provide quite practical numbers that are easy to relate to: 0 = freezing, 20 = room temperature, 16-25 = range of pleasant but not too hot outside temperatures (tastes will vary), 37 = body temperature, >40 = too hot, 100 = boiling water. Although my room thermostat allows itself to be set to half-degrees, not all thermostats do, and you don't really need those in practice. On the other hand, I see Fahrenheit numbers often being used like 60s, 70s or 80s, which seems to indicate that Fahrenheit has a bit too much detail.
I've always hoped we'd move to a 0-100 scale where the scale is the temperatures people can relate to. 0 is cold, 100 is hot. How hot is 100? Same as 100 farenheit. We know that's hot. How cold is cold? Same as 0 celsius, we know that's cold.
Of course, for science and cooking we need more dynamic range, which F and C work well for, but just for our daily experience, we need something new.
> I've always hoped we'd move to a 0-100 scale where the scale is the temperatures people can relate to.
That's exactly what Celsius is, except it pegs 0 and 100 at non-arbitrary temperatures that are both scientifically precise and exceptionally relevant to everyday use.
100C is not important to everyday use. The fact that water boils when heated is important, but that could go anywhere from 70 to 200 and the change would barely get noticed.
I don't know about you, but I boil water several times every day. I don't go outside to freezing temperatures every day. So this is all relative.
In fact, the heater I have at work has a nice digital temperature display, and it works nicely as an indication how long to wait, a bit like a charging/loading indication...
You boil water but you don't directly experience the temperature. All you see is a number that starts near zero and counts to 100. If water boiled at twice the temperature and had half the specific heat you wouldn't notice it.
Ice temperature, room temperature, body temperature, these are things you can directly experience and use as a high quality reference point. For the average person the boiling point of water is just 'hot', with a rough idea of how long it takes their particular heater to get there.
I like my sauna around 90C/195F. I can relate to that temperature. The coldest weather I've been in is -17F/-27C. I can relate to that as well, though I much prefer not to.
On the other hand, I grew up in Miami. In college in northern Florida, those of us from the south stayed up late so we could actually see what it was like when it was freezing outside. We left water outside to see that it actually froze! Back then I couldn't relate to temperatures below 32F/0C.
In other words, "we" is a rather nebulous definition.
Beyond a certain age everyone has had the experience of suffering thru having total weirdo coworkers (weird even by my standards) who seemingly randomly oscillate the office thermostat setting from 60 to 80 thru the day because they "feel cold" "feel hot" so they turned the thermostat all the way up or all the way down. Nutcases.
I'm just saying if you create a hot and cold human scale, it'll have to be personalized for each individual and seemingly randomly vary over time. May as well use a magic 8-ball.
I have a 2011 MBP, but the 17 inch model. Have had zero problems with it, even though I use my computer for heavy amounts of RAW photo editing in Aperture, photoshop, etc. This problem may be relatively common, but I doubt it is universal.
Of course, the people on this board are probably running generally more punishing tasks on their computers than the average, so if anyone was going to find this problem, it would be us.
I don't know if RAW editing is the best example of heavy load. RAW editing in Lightroom and Photoshop (don't use Aperture) don't really test my machine at all unless I am "publishing" and that seems to be more IO bound than CPU/GPU bound (on an one year old i5).
Gaming and BitTorrent (e.g. Battle.net launcher) are the only things that "upset" my machine heat/utilisation wise. Maybe full virus scans but that is more IO again.
i had to replace logic board on my mid 2010 mbp 15" after applecare expired.
i also noticed my mbp also runs very hot even when i am not doing anything fancy. the most i have is 15 chrome tabs open. i know chrome is a hog but hey ... its a powerful system, should be able to handle it without heating my like an oven ready to bake chicken.
compressed air many times .. no use
i had to run smcfan but still its pretty hot.
What a fantastic way to deal with the problem. Whereas most people would have gone and paid money to some repair place, you took matters into your own hands. I love the iFixit approach to problems. (although I do understand why many people may find this a bit too much). What else can you hack?
Reminds me of my parents' Sony Trinitron TV. The thing is 20 years old. From time to time TV starts misbehaving, they call up some local guy, who refreshes soldering on TV's internal components and the TV just works after that. Twenty years old - still can't believe this!
I did something similar years ago with an HP laptop (direction from internet of course).
Instead of the oven, I used a heatgun and a stack of nickles on top of the GPU chip. I almost fell over in surprise when the laptop booted right up afterwords.
I had the same problem with a HP laptop a few years ago. HP
denied their was a problem. Long story short; I will never
give that company any more money. As to reballing a graphics chip, I would buy a kit off ebay, if made, and do
it right. You are still taking a chance because you most
likely don't have a proper heating station? I really like the additional holes. I would like to know exactly where
my fans are and make a proper template. I would then use a
very small gauge drill, and put in hundreds of holes. I would try to make it look like it came from Apple that way?
I use "I would" too much. I probally won't likely do anything
until mine goes dark? (I think the correct way of drilling
holes is dismantling the MacBook Pro, which has always scared me.)
i wonder why author choose to drill holes.. i'd think a cutting disk + slots would be better for airflow, and could be made to look a little better aesthetically
I'd like to see an aftermarket case bottom that doesn't look like shit. Water Cut a nice and usefull pattern & let me bolt it on to the bottom of my macbook.
I'll never understand those that insist on doing real work, or gaming, with a laptop. When dealing with a GPU, and especially one made by nvidia, you're battling with the laws of physics. Super hot things make other, nearby things, super hot. Even with proper cooling, nvidia chips overheat and die. Anyone that has had nvidia already knows this. They have a lifetime of a year or two, max.
Get a desktop already. At least then, when your fancy GPU has a meltdown, you can salvage things from the wreckage.
For a lot of us, a desktop is just too big and too much work. A laptop is easy, it's everything right in front of you, it's fast enough, it's cheap enough, and it's portable. Aside from serious business use (trading, rendering, etc), gamers, programmers and data hoarders, there's not really a great reason for the average person to have a desktop anymore.
Laptops that were built with thermals in mind actually do quite well at full load. I used to play a decent amount of games on my Lenovo Y500 when it was new and it could do full load for hours and hours without getting hot. It was still less noisy than my Macbook. The secret is to build a high diameter fan and a wide fan vent. Unfortunately Apple seems to think that being thin is more important. It's certainly easier to market.
Not always possible. I can't speak to gaming, but I use a laptop for "real work" almost exclusively. My reason is because I not only write code at home, but often have meetings or go to a coffee shop to do a demo, etc. There's no way I'm carrying a box and monitor to all those places.
What I trade for portability is performance and I replace the machine more. I just keep everything important stored online and when my laptop dies I grab another and keep going.
real work = putting a load on the CPU, as in making the CPU do work. Your text editor does not count.
In almost every instance of someone using a laptop for heavy CPU work, there is certainly a better, more practical reason to use a desktop. There is no need to sit at a coffee shop and make music, unless you do not have access to a studio or even your parent's garage. Video editing will not be done out in the field. It will, if done professionally, be in a quiet room with the proper equipment. Most of the time, someone that insists that doing either of these is just fine on a laptop, is someone that is young, broke, and doesn't have access to the proper tools for the job. Of course, the person pointing this out will get many downvotes...
I wouldn't downvote you, but real work for me is not my text editor, it's more like:
Compiling
Importing and Exporting from a database
Photoshop
load tests.
Also, I run a web server and database on my machine. It's just a personal preference for me. I do have a mac mini at home that I use also for stuff like video editing.
Congrats? You have everything you want, and no license to complain when your Macbook overheats and dies I guess. And you also seem to recognize that it will die. As long as you use the right tool for the right job, sure...
Your case would have much more weight if similarly equipped 2012 Macbook Pros with discrete GPUs were failing at the same rate as their 2011 counterparts.
My case is to use the right tool for the job. If you're gaming on a laptop, you're getting a subpar experience anyway. Unless you're also lugging around an additional keyboard, mouse, and headphones. Which makes the whole laptop convenience a moot point. Or are you really arguing 2012 Macbooks don't get hot when gaming? I don't buy that.
>> Or are you really arguing 2012 Macbooks don't get hot when gaming?
No, I'm saying that the 2012s aren't getting so hot that there have even been remotely same degree of hardware failures as with the 2011 models.
My 2011 MBP just died last week (already replaced the logic board once under AppleCare). I never really played any games on it, so the failure had less to do with the discrete GPU itself than the CPU causing the overheating issues.
The logic boards clearly have a design defect in that they can't handle the heat that the computer runs at under non-gaming load. So contrary to what you said, I think I do have a "license to complain when your Macbook overheats and dies".
Obviously. But some less popular laptop vendors have this 'next business day' warranty where they send a technician to fix your laptop in your office or at home. Much better idea than a baking owen imho, however there is something in a scent of freshly baked mainboard ;)
I really wish iFixit would do a formal root cause analysis every so often. As an electrical engineer running a small manufacturing operation, I'm always very interested in the failure rates and root causes that much higher volume products see.
Lead free solder melts somewhere in the 200C-300C range. The solder we use melts at 230 degrees, and we reflow our PCBs in a Vapor Phase Soldering oven, which precisely limits the PCB temperature to 230C. Reflowing a PCB multiple times risks solder paste flux exhaustion, and also risks parts on the bottom side of the PCB falling off. Also, some parts are rated only for a very limited time at these temperatures, even when they are not running. Cooking these parts multiple times results in a dramatic reduction in lifespan.
It wouldn't surprise me if Apple did an x-ray inspection of every BGA part on every device they produce. This isn't common practice in the manufacturing lines that I know about, but I know that it's done in some cases. This would help catch cracks or other defects that would result in a reduced lifespan of the device, as well as detect show stopper issues.
There are a lot of other things that can fail on a PCB due to heat long before the solder will melt on a BGA pin. My guess that this was a mechanical failure inside the PCB. Either a through hole failure (such as a via disconnecting from a PCB trace, since the PCB is undoubtedly a very high layer count producing many fragile connections to long copper vias, which would expand vertically and in radius during temperature cycles) or an inner layer connection defect due to PCB or copper expansion. In either case, cycling the temperature by a large amount could temporarily fix the problem by creating a good enough connection for operation.
The bottom line is higher operating temperature always hurts mean time between failure. This is well studied, and many manufacturers will include plots of the operating temperature vs MTBF. Even though the laptop is working now, all of the components have been exposed to additional extreme additional thermal stress. Everything in the laptop is now much closer to failure. I don't expect the laptop will last much longer.
I'm not familiar with the guts of a MacBook Pro, but if there was a larger than normal gap between the chips and their heat sinks, then this would definitely explain the higher than normal system temperature. Even if the heat sink compound was able to bridge the gap with minimal air bubbles, it's still a pretty poor thermal conductor. This may have been a manufacturing defect that Apple could check for in the future. (Although I would hope they already run the devices for some length of time in their final enclosures while monitoring component temperatures)
Looks like the real issue is lack of cleaning the dust once a year.
Apple normally 'does not mind' if you open the case. Obviously you have to know what you are doing, hence the special screws. If you know what you are doing, you'll find where to spend $1 to get the correct screw driver.
I apologize in advance for having to be harsh in my commentary.
As someone with over 30 years in electronics manufacturing the first thought I had when reading this article was: This is an incredibly stupid idea.
Do not try to play manufacturing engineer with your kitchen oven. You will, without a doubt, cause more harm than good. Not to mention coating the oven where you cook your food with stuff you don't want in your food.
Modern high density RoHS electronics boards require higher temperatures in precisely timed and controlled vapor phase reflow ovens. Components, solder joints and the board itself will almost certainly suffer damage from uncontrolled non-vapor profiles in a kitchen oven.
It is far more likely that components will be exposed to far greater temperatures than rated as well as all kinds of imaginable differential heating and thermal slew rates. You can destroy the vias and pads connecting multiple layers of a multi-layer PCB simply by having differential heating or high temperatures. You can also damage dielectrics in precise impedance controlled boards. You can cause problems with solder that might very much affect signal integrity in high speed signals (for example, around the memory subsystem).
In general terms, you are very much opening Pandora's Box if you think you can use a kitchen oven to reflow a modern mid to high complexity circuit board.
Beyond that, you don't have the necessary optical, x-ray and high-speed testing equipment required to verify operation. You don't even have access to design data needed to understand where critical paths might lie.
Sorry. This is a really dumb idea.
Then we move on to drilling holes for the fans. OK, great, yes, more cool air molecules per unit time is what cooling is about. However, this design does not have any air filtration mechanisms. So, by drilling a bunch of holes you are far more likely to create a situation where you will coat the entire inside of the computer with a layer of dust and dirt with the potential to cause major issues.
If I had no choice but to cut holes on the bottom on one of these machines I'd take the time to engineer a bolt-on filter plate with washable filters so that the internals might be protected from contamination (within reason).
A far better idea might be (more on that later) to engineer the attachment of a surface extension feature on the bottom of the machine rather than drilling ventilation holes. "Surface extension" is what you commonly see on heatsinks, in other words, fins. Anyone who's done thermal FEA quickly understands that designing thermal management by eye only works if you have a lot of experience. These machines probably have decent thermal design. Perhaps all that is needed to make them a bit better is to add 10 mm of metal to the bottom with a nice thick set of fins widely spaced in order to extend the surface and promote thermal exchange with ambient air.
Final point on TIM's (Thermal Interface Materials) like thermal paste. Their main purpose in life is to take two non-perfect surfaces and bridge the little imperfections so that more molecules make a thermal connection between surface A and surface B. If you could polish both surfaces to absolute perfection and mate them to absolute perfection you would not need TIM's. When it comes to thermal paste, you want as little as possible and you do not want any air gaps. To some degree there's an art to applying these kinds of TIMs.
The author talked about buying some copper sheet in an attempt to fix the problem. Again, horrible idea. You have have two layers of TIM, on one each side of the copper sheet.
In the hands of those without the requisite knowledge or experience I feel that ceramic sheet-based TIMs are far safer (http://goo.gl/Q6e0Es).
But I digress. The best idea would have been to walk the machine to Apple and deal with it through their channel. That's what they do best.
The good news is that this kitchen-reflow machine is unlikely to make it to the used market due to the drilling on the bottom. I would hope that the author will be honest enough to disclose the amateur reflowing of the main board if and when the machine is ever sold in the used market.
I have nearly the exact issues with temps around 80-90 on my 2010 MBP while I produce in Ableton. I've done hours of research, and it sounded like a new Logic board was the only answer ($700). I even had both fans replaced about 2 years ago. Speed holes here I come!
I own the same laptop, I have it for about 2.5 years now and never experienced such temperatures. During a normal workday, (programming, compiling, git etc) I never once heard the fans spin up.
I have a BookArc[1] laptop stand, which is about the worst possible way to keep a running MBP (lid closed, fan slots pointing down) and even with lots of gaming, I have never experienced any problems.
Yes, I do clean the fans once a year, but all laptops need that. It goes to show that thermal wise the MBP is actually very well engineered.
Right...except for the tens of thousands of people with the 2011 machine experiencing heat related damage to the GPU.
Your study size of one doesn't 'go to show' anything at all regarding the MacBooks thermal performance. It shows that you yourself haven't experienced any issues but that's where it ends.
I for instance have a 2010 i7 MacBook Pro and it will spin up and get ridiculously hot (too hot to touch) simply watching a 1080p flash video on YouTube. Not the greatest thermal design there with my study size of one :-)
What I will say though is that Apple seems to use the Aluminium case as a heat transfer device, so it purposefully gets hot to disapate heat. That's great until there is a fault with the solder being too thin to withstand the planned temperatures like is happening to the 2011 MacBooks with the discrete GPU.
I just use them on my lap and have never had heat problems with any of my macbooks.
Before I bought my first macbook air I wrote a program on the console that slammed the CPU and left it running at the apple store. When I came back a few hours later the program was still running (100% CPU on all cores) and the machine was still cool to the touch. I then purchased the laptop.
> I just use them on my lap and have never had heat problems with any of my macbooks.
Yes, but have you ever specifically had a 2011 MBP like in the article? It's a very specific set of models that have the heat issue.
Mine could easily hit 90C under load (it just bricked itself last week). Which mean it was quite hot to the touch. After I changed the thermal compound, it would hit the low 80s (C) at peak, but even then, it was quite hot.
I haven't had that model. Apple has clearly had some thermal design problems in the past, but my sense is that they have been resolved in newer models.
Engineer: "We can get the computer to half heat if we add a few more intake holes..."
ArtsySalesDouche: "Nein! Nein! Nein! I don't want that! I know nobody sees the bottom, but I don't want it, I don't want it, I don't want it, I don't want it!"
