It was interesting to follow Patrick's reports few years ago, when they were specific and factual, but attempts to extrapolate from that into a field of full-on startup mentoring and coaching looks rather strange to put it mildly.
I think it's because you're looking at it like this:
1) BCC (And the AB testing, SEO, etc)
2) Appointment Reminder
3) ???
4) Mentoring / coaching / training
The part 3 was consulting, where people paid him money for 4, but presumably there's some NDAs prohibiting write ups the same as BCC. Appointment Reminder has always been a bit more secretive because of Patrick deciding between taking investment or bootstrapping. By not knowing the middle you think it's a huge change, but it's really not.
Ramit Seethi you can look at a similar way. How did he jump from a book in 2009 to having several products on what basically amounts to life coaching (dream job, earning money on the side, resume improvements, etc)? In only 3 years since the book he's convinced individuals to drop $2-15k on the promise that he can help them get a better job. To me that seems like a bigger jump than what Patrick has done, but I don't know the middle.
> How did he jump from a book in 2009 to having several products on what basically amounts to life coaching (dream job, earning money on the side, resume improvements, etc)?
The funny thing about Hacker News is you never know who's going to be reading your posts. Hi! I'm the person who convinced Ramit to quit his day job and do this blogging/product thing full time several years ago. I also know Patrick personally and it's an interesting comparison you are making between the two of them.
> In only 3 years since the book he's convinced individuals to drop $2-15k on the promise that he can help them get a better job.
I understand the skepticism around Ramit's products, especially from the HN crowd. However, knowing Ramit and having been through his products as a reviewer, they are stellar, and the results he gets for his students are meticulously documented. That's not to say they're for everyone--as an entrepreneur myself, I didn't get as much value as a job-seeker would have, and Ramit is probably a couple years away from creating a product geared toward entrepreneurs.
Knowing both Ramit and Patrick, the main similarity I see is both have a deeply analytical mind. Neither takes anything for granted, and they're both fanatical testers...not just with marketing copy, but also with their products. Ramit goes to ridiculous levels to make sure his products are bar none the best out there. He spends hundreds of thousands of dollars a year on salaries and hiring the best people so that his products can be the top of their class.
Patrick is a bit different, as he got burned on consulting (I'm sure he'll tell that story when he's ready) and went back to focusing on products. He's newer to the info product segment than Ramit, and a little more gun-shy when it comes to aggressive sales. (Ramit uses more aggressive sales tactics because he strongly feels--and has the testimonials to back it up--that he does have the best stuff out there.) Patrick is more cautious, as a geek first and foremost, and someone who built up his list through Hacker News and other geek-oriented websites.
In neither case would I hesitate to buy one of their products that was aimed in my direction or endorse them for other folks in their respective target markets. Both Patrick and Ramit operate from a foundation of integrity and putting the best stuff out there. I'm fortunate to count both of them as friends and mentors.
I didn't mean for the comment to seem skeptical of what either has done. With regards to Ramit, I know he's fantastic at sales -- I've actually bought one of his products and found it worth the cost. I assume his other products are of similar quality, because it takes a lot of proof to get some of those sales he's making.
I was just bringing up that it seems like a huge jump to someone working a 9-5 corporate job, and I'm just mentally penciling in "hustle" in how he got from A to B, because I haven't followed his story the whole way, the same as the OP hadn't been following Patrick. I like learning from the story of progression more than a "do this that and the other, but not that."
The "jump" is seldom more than a decision to change your path. Robert Ringer's Leapfrog Theory states: "No one has an obligation—moral, legal, or otherwise—to 'work his way up through the ranks.' Every human being possesses an inalienable right to make a unilateral decision to redirect his career and begin operating on a higher level at any time he believes he is prepared to do so."
I can't pretend to speak for Patrick, but I'm guessing that a lot of people asked him for more and more advice. I bet a lot of people wanted to pay him to help them.
I don't find it strange at all. Given his success with his first video series, I bet he makes a mint on it.
Patrick, if you read this, I very much appreciate your podcasts and articles. I've been working all year to switch from consulting to a product, so your advice is unbelievably well timed.
For a certain type of engineer everything involving sales, marketing, discussions about perceived value and getting paid tons of money for something that basically equates to "advice giving"... will seem strange and weird.
I've tried to use this same reframing approach when working with people to estimate a software schedule (for complex projects with external promises). Basically, if you can establish that engineering is about tradeoffs -- such as between runtime and memory footprint and code size and small vs large values of N and so on -- then certainly human development time is another resource subject to tradeoffs, where we should identify alternate scenarios and try to aim for the optimal one.
Finding ways to talk to people in terms that resonate is tricky -- and often almost a matter of bridging micro-cultures, where subtle tribal affinity signals are needed to gain trust -- so I was impressed that Patrick could break down salary negotiation in a way that didn't seem skeezy to people who just want to build great things and not worry they are getting shafted.
I do have some skin in this game, so do take this with a pinch of salt
patio11 "followed the dream" - and turns out dreamland is not so perfect after all. Yet enough people are interested in following, and willingly pay for travel guides for the journey.
Yes, it was nicer when he had a day job, did a little bit of bingo cards and blogging in the evenings.
But even if he does not write it down, or even admit it to himself, at a certain point on the journey even nice people say "I want some of that for myself". I do.
And he is taking his path to achieve that. If he succeeds or if he fails, I will learn something from watching.
And I will learn something from what he says.
What I do with that information is my problem. Sadly I know that it will not be getting paid a lot of money to do fun and interesting coding all day. But that's the journey.
I'm happy that the audio quality significantly improved from the first episode. But still Patrick is a lot quieter than Keith - which leads me to adjust volume constantly.
I don't know your setup, but maybe use a multi-track recording software and then adjust each speaker's track to match volume.
Thanks for the comment. I'll tell the audio engineer to add it to the list of things he adjusts for. Episode 6 is already in the can but ideally it will be better for you after episode 7.
On that note, Patrick, ask him to move your audio to be in the center (stereo wise), rather than entirely on the right channel as it is now. If you listen with headphones to this episode, Keith is spread across both left and right while you are solely on the right channel. Confusing to the ears.
Still listening, but as always, great episode thus far!
Hey Nathan--Glad to see you over here. I know you personally and I know Patrick personally, and Patrick is definitely one of the good guys. I've been super impressed with him, having both worked with him (we both consulted at WP Engine at the same time last year) and on getting to know him on a personal level. As I mentioned in my other post on this thread, he got burned on consulting and is headed back into info products. He's not the "Internet marketer" type you and I are both disgusted with (the group we've both publicly disowned) at all.
Another way to think about this is that Patrick puts out an info product, and then runs customer development and marketing through blogging and podcasting.
(I am 100% guilty of patio11 hero worship and will continue to do so, as his post on salary negotiation has made me more money than everything else on the Internet combined.)
Part of the reason I'm offering my opinion is because of the hero worship that happens on this site. Sometimes opinions aren't as balanced as I'd like them to be.
Gee, thanks Patrick. You know, I used to listen to speculative fiction podcasts on my commute: Escape Pod for scifi, Podcastle for fantasy, maybe some Drabblecast or even video game podcasts...
Now all I listen to is small business/bootstrapping casts! Kalzumeus, Product People, Techzing, Foolish Adventure, Eventual Millionaire, I have a whole backlog of this stuff!
Will you guys knock it off with this excellent & actionable content, so I can listen to some fiction again?? Geez!
Thank you very much for posting this list. I'd cast about a while back looking for similar stuff, but not found much I enjoyed. Looking forward to giving these a try.
Damn you to hell. I _was_ listening to some good fiction during my jogs via audible, but now I feel bad for not using that time to invest in myself learning from others!
There are a lot of voters who are quick to downvote. Sadly many of the dislike entirely legitimate questions (such as yours) because they know the answer.
So don't sweat it, besides you are already reopvoted.
It would be for businesses that have a large customer base and are less concerned with having the latest features and are much more interested in stability.
