I think it may answer some of the questions people have here; if you have additional questions please email me (jacob@jacobian.org) and I'll do my best to answer 'em.
> For example, during one of the talks on Sunday a woman took a photograph of two men who had been joking to each other by lightly sexualizing some computer jargon and she tweeted about it citing their remarks as offensive
Jokes along the lines of "my dick is pythonic" may be hilarious among your python-hacking friends, but saying it in a space where you don't know who's listening and what they've gone through was not a good idea.
> On the offensive remark I have very few details, but those I was given was that it was something like “you’re the hottest.” That doesn’t sound very bad to me but I suppose that could have been a polite paraphrasing of what I said
There are many women for whom that's the low end of the sexual harassment they endure. It is pretty tame, relatively speaking, but another straw on the back in a culture that condones much worse.
> Gray areas. Guys are pretty likely to make dick jokes when in the company of like-minded individuals, how far from conference grounds should they be before that becomes okay?
Speak for yourself. I find it horribly inappropriate in anything approaching a professional setting. Basically, you seem to have limited perspective on the other half of the population, and a large part of your own. This is a great chance to learn.
I think your tone here is a little more combative than the article deserves.
>If anything, I hope talking about it reduces these sorts of incidents without anybody feeling like their rights are being reduced as well.
This (along with >I'm not fighting the decision to ban me) read to me like a guy who wants to spark a dialogue on what should be considered appropriate at these events.
Context is a huge issue here. I wouldn't come into any hacker-culture event with an expectation of professionalism and maturity -- maybe I'm not the majority.
> I think your tone here is a little more combative than the article deserves.
It's entirely possible it sounds combative. It's not intentional.
> Context is a huge issue here. I wouldn't come into any hacker-culture event with an expectation of professionalism and maturity -- maybe I'm not the majority.
A big part of professionalism is avoiding certain low-value behaviors because some people you might like to get along with are bothered by said behaviors. Professionalism doesn't have to mean putting on a suit and spouting buzzwords.
>A big part of professionalism is avoiding certain low-value behaviors because some people you might like to get along with are bothered by said behaviors.
Which is something I personally wouldn't expect at a hacker-culture convention.
"my dick is pythonic" may be low brow, but low brow humor is just part of communication. I fall on the other side here.
grey areas here I agree with you, professional settings should not have low brow humor.
but "you’re the hottest.” here I disagree.
I wouldn't call that relatively tame. That's gang mentality against a visible minority in the community.
What's so frustrating about the status of women in technology is there is nothing I can do about the bottom 1% of my male demographic ostracizing women. Short of asking they be removed.
> I wouldn't call that relatively tame. That's gang mentality against a visible minority in the community.
I put it in the box of things that could be brushed off in a more equitable society. But it probably sounded like I was downplaying it since we're in agreement.
Regarding "how far from conference grounds", "joking" in the hotel lobby or restroom may be a gray area, but I would consider a BoF meetup as still within the realm of the conference.
Also, whether the woman played the Cards Against Humanity game or not has no bearing on whether his behavior was inappropriate.
Conferences are a minefield. Conflicting opinions of if a particular conference should be, is, and what qualifies as, a "professional work environment" run rampant.
When you have everyone attending because it's necessary and/or just a break from the office, they have a professional setting because people are not excited to be there. I see this in the business domain (not-tech) conferences all the time, any recreation happens completely separate from the conference.
Tech conferences get tech enthusiasts. Suddenly people actually want to be there and have fun with the other attendees. An easy example is DEFCON, people treat it like a party with talks, because for over a decade it was unambiguously a party with talks.
Problems are multiplied when people want to relax standards of professionalism on some axis but maintain it on others (or even ratchet it up beyond what people are used to in their own offices). Clearly defining socially feasible expectations of behavior and communicating that to attendees never happens, then "incidents" occur.
> An easy example is DEFCON, people treat it like a party with talks, because for over a decade it was unambiguously a party with talks.
I would like to believe that even a party is possible without harassing or discriminating against other people. I don't think it has anything to do with trying to be a "professional" work environment. I just want to see it as being respectful to people around you all the time, everywhere. Fully believing that, I have never ever found a desire to hit on or make derogatory comments to another man unprovoked, put boobs on a presentation slide, or grab someone's crotch even while incredibly drunk, outside of where my partner is concerned when we're in private. I find it incredibly difficult to deal with the fact that I've encountered many men that think doing any of that is perfectly normal until someone says otherwise.
Sadly, I don't think defcon has ever met that standard so I haven't attended except with friends in a very long time and I've always swore off unofficial and after-conference events. Plenty of good people but it's always those couple rotten apples that like to be disrespectful...
I think that one of the major issues facing conferences is the distinction between professionalism and private life. The way one behaves with good friends is very distinct from how one behaves in a group of strangers, which is distinct from how one behaves with your co-workers or other professional relationships. I think that the mixed culture of a conference might exacerbate this problem: despite the fact that you're attending with friends, and perhaps even going out for drinks, it's not the same as being in a solely social setting.
If I'm with my friends, I know what jokes are appropriate, and which ones aren't - I've had the experience to do that. On the other hand, if I'm at a conference, someone nearby could have a bad reaction to a comment that my friends wouldn't react to - people are different, and an "innocent dick joke" to a friend could really bother someone else.
I don't pretend to say that this is the sole problem, or even a real solution, but I think it might be worth recognizing.
Good point - I had never thought of it as friends vs. non-friends before - just professional vs. non-professional. So maybe the filter should be "is this something I would say around a stranger regardless of whether the environment is professional or non-professional?" Still, for far too may, I think the answer might still be yes. It's as if people think there is some sort of sound-proofing around them - or don't care that there isn't.
So wait, this guy was smoking some weed (I assume) in the middle of a con and got banned. Why is this even questioned? Whether you agree with smoking weed or not, he committed a crime during a PyCon event.
I'm questioning it. The behavior in question seems alcohol-spawned. If alcohol is tolerated it seems bizarre to treat cannabis draconianly.
If cannabis use is legal in the state, there is no prosecutable crime. Federal cannabis drug law is not enforced against cannabis users, only those who sell it and thereby more directly touch on interstate commerce.
If breaking unenforced federal law is ban-able behavior, then better ban everyone.
I think the unfortunate thing is that we all break federal law every day. (Most of us at least violate the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act. Ever made a GET request potentially in violation of an API's ToS?) Scary thing is, the feds actually prosecute under the CFAA.
For being in the room, I have to admit that I have been shocked by the words.
Not because it was a tech conference or the code of conduct but because but it's NOT A WAY of speaking anywhere and specially in public with or without presence of woman.
Maybe I m too old school coming from the old continent anyway...
I appreciate the honesty of his post and to admit his fault publicly. But I guess that having somebody banned many years will make think some peoples for the next pycon about how to behave in public. Maybe I shouldn't but a part of myself still feel sorry for him.
Something I learned from professional event, if you don't handle well the booze then watch out your drinking to avoid of being a fool.
> I realize a line needs to be drawn somewhere, and in this case that line was chosen at me.
When you're the only one to cross a particular line among many other people, don't be surprised when you get called out. The lines may be fuzzy, sure, or it might be a pretty clear-cut case (such as, smoking weed in a crowded audience during a tech talk), but regardless you should try to have an idea of how your actions might affect those around you.
As a thought exercise, ask yourself if it would be okay for everyone to be doing what you are currently doing. Say, heckling the presenter, or using illicit substances, or even just talking to the person next to you. If an audience full of people heckling, smoking up, or chattering to each other would be counter-productive to the presenter's ability to present and/or an individual's enjoyment of the event, maybe you should consider not doing it yourself.
He should not censor himself. If a person doesn't like what he/she is hearing he/she can just go somewhere else. Nobody is forcing him/her to stand next to him and to listen to his sex jokes.
Hard to find another place to go when there's always someone that seems to forget the meaning of the word "context".
And you just deleted your line about "fugly girls" being the only ones to complain... if I'm so fugly for wanting people to be more considerate to each other, boy, there are a lot of people out there that are willing to hit on me anyway, inappropriately.
I deleted the fulgy comment following the advice of the pro-tip. I agree, context has a lot to do with what is appropriate and inappropriate to say. That being said, I think we can agree that a conference setting is different than a workplace setting. A lot of people go to conferences for fun. Mix alcohol in with that and you are going to have a party. A party with alcohol can lead to stuff like what happened - jokes/comments being said that might offend people. Don't like the jokes or comments? Leave. Nobody is forcing you to stay there. I've been in those kinds of situations and guess what, I just get up and leave.
And if it's at a conference, I don't have a choice because I'm paying to go and learn something. If it's an afterparty, I have to miss out on spending time with people I wouldn't get a chance to see easily otherwise. I also miss out on general networking and business opportunities galore, not to mention whatever good food and drinks and music is around. What am I going to do? Go sulk in my hotel room or go home, or wander around until my ride is ready to go? Find another party with yet another asshole?
Or should I just try to drill this into peoples' heads: Nobody should ever have to be the one that leaves a party because they're offended by one person out of tens/hundreds. It's every partygoer's obligation not to be an asshole to others. The asshole can leave or shut up and apologize if necessary.
You don't have to leave the party, just walk to another area. I agree it's not ideal but sometimes that's what needs to be done. I agree partygoer's shouldn't be assholes (or cunts).
You have quite a way of expressing yourself. Hopefully at the next conference I can sit next to you and let you know just how much I enjoy your opinions. You can always leave if it bothers you.
I like to play devil's advocate every now and then to see how people react. That being said, I am a true believer in freedom of speech. It's a double edged sword though as it gives people the right to say inappropriate and inconsiderate things. But I'll take that any day over censorship. I don't go to conferences as I prefer user group meetings.
> I like to play devil's advocate every now and then to see how people react
Easily interpreted as trolling. I think you're doing yourself a disservice.
One person telling another to "shut it" is not censorship. Both have a right to speak their minds. Censorship is when you're told by someone with authority that what you're saying/writing/expressing should not be expressed for whatever set of reasons.
You telling someone to "just go away" is equal to this.
There's a standard in the US that your right to free speech shall be upheld but not in the case of hate speech or insighting unrest and violence (also known as trolling). This is for very good reason (ask Weev what he thinks) - which is that we need some form of law to protect us from one person riling up a mob to violence, or a single deranged person from stalking and harassing another.
Trolling a community to provoke thought and discourse is a time-honored profession that predates the internet by millennia (Jesus is often considered one of the best trolls in history).
Taking a contrary position "just because" or for sport is rude. But it's tolerated. How much of me would you like to tolerate in person? Here, online, I'm just a name in a message thread. In person it's a whole different deal. You have rights to protect you from my thoughts, and I have rights to express those thoughts.
Yes, a conference is different than a workplace setting – you're surrounded by people you don't know and therefore, you need to watch what you say because you don't have any rapport to fall back on when you (possibly accidentally) cross a line.
It seems especially sad that we're willing to allow the marginal at best behavior of a few be reason that others should have to get up and leave.
Women should not have to stay sequestered in their own homes because some men are inconsiderate assholes.
How would you feel if you were at a convention populated mostly by 7' tall gay weight lifters, and one of them shouted "Hey, nice ass!" at you? I bet you'd feel pretty damn uncomfortable. That's pretty much how it feels to be a woman, not just at these conventions, but in the world at large.
Note: I am a 6'1 175 pound male. It's hard for me to conceive of what it's like to be a woman who is 5'2" and 120 pounds... that's why the 7' tall gay weightlifter analogy... it's the only translation that works in my head. Seriously, think about it. They're way bigger than you, way stronger than you, they think you have a tasty ass (or not, but for some reason they feel the need to sexualize you), and you definitely are not interested in them... and they're all around you all the time.
Also note: I'm not actually trying to say real gay people want your ass. They probably don't.
Funny you bring up that analogy. Actually, I have been hit on by gay guys. To be honest, I find it pretty funny. My girlfriend laughs about it too as she has seen it happen to me at the supermarket. BTW, you can generalize your statement to "people should not have to stay sequestered in their own homes because some people are inconsiderate assholes or cunts." I agree with that statement. I never said a person should stay home. I just said they should leave the area where the sexist jokes/comment are being said.
How to get banned from PyCon:
The rest of the article is irrelevant.