Hacker News new | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submit login
It’s time all clinical trial results are reported (alltrials.net)
299 points by oyvindeh on Jan 22, 2013 | hide | past | favorite | 93 comments



Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Signed and donated.

This is a great effort, and I suggest others help out as well. The amount of fake trials and hidden experiment data that pharmas participate in is absurd. I can't recall the exact incident ('carbocation probably will) but within the last decade there was a rather large scandal where a particular drug was known to have a fatal side effect -- suicidal ideation, I believe [wrong, valvular heart damage - see below] -- and more than 90% of the trial data that pointed to said effect was hidden and concealed. The drug hit the market and was later pulled off the shelves because, you guessed it, people started dying! While I don't believe the reporting of all trials will fix that level of deceit, it's certainly a great step in the right direction. Pushing for public reporting of data concerning meds that people might eventually put into their bodies only makes sense.

Next up: Abolishing sponsored research clinical trials, or at least increasing the transparency of research sponsorship instead of burying the fact that the research PI is actually an employee of Pfizer somewhere deep in the appendices.

It's amazing how we have organizations like Consumer Reports to give us objective reviews of toasters and cars, yet nothing like that exists for medications or medical devices, isn't it?

Edit: So I'm confusing 2 things:

1) Fen-phen was a diet pill pushed to market despite evidence that it caused valvular heart damage. It was pulled from the market. Read: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/prescription/h...

2) SSRIs were the drugs that increase suicidality (something commonly known now) and the data confirming that was reportedly hidden by pharmas. Read: http://reason.com/archives/2007/07/10/can-caution-be-too-ris...


Good examples. I'll add Vioxx (rofecoxib), a Merck COX-2-specific NSAID that was released in 1999 and pulled in 2004 [1]. Merck hid evidence that the drug caused cardiovascular events and death. Eventually, the evidence became impossible to suppress [2]. Meta-analyses demonstrated that, given the ongoing trials at the time, Merck could have (and almost certainly did) observe internally that there was an excess of cardiovascular mortality in the Vioxx arm of their (combined) trials [3]. Eventually, the drug was removed from the market, but not before what has been estimated as nearly 100 thousand attributable heart attacks [4].

[1] = http://www.fda.gov/Drugs/DrugSafety/PostmarketDrugSafetyInfo...

[2] = http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_exa...

[3] = http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-67...

[4] = http://www.consumersunion.org/pub/core_health_care/001651.ht...


I read your second article on SSRIs and I'm confused at the point you're trying to make. The article (written in 2007) concludes that an over-reaction to the British journal's reports that SSRIs increase suicidal ideation (ergo suicide) may have actually caused more suicides due to under-prescription of SSRIs in adolescents.

The article cites many university studies which show that use of SSRIs actually coincided with a decreased risk of suicidal ideation.

Is there more recent evidence to suggest the British studies were correct?

I hear a lot of anecdotal evidence when SSRIs and other anti-depressants are discussed, which I agree is important because everyone can react differently to them and doctors and patients should be aware of what may occur, but the article you linked to actually states that the clinical evidence is in support of SSRI prescription in all age groups with major depression.

EDIT: I do note that the article mentions the GSK settlement with Spitzer, and regardless of whether the studies hold true, they should not have been covered up unless there was a question to the scientific standards of the trials.


Abolish sponsored clinical trials? How do you plan to fund them then?

A very large part of the multi-billion dollar a year R&D budgets of the pharmaceutical companies go to pay for clinical trials. How would you replace that money?


Simple really. Establish an independent entity to conduct them, and fund those activities as part of the approval process.

Having a vested interest control scientific studies is poor regulatory system design.


So who controls the budgets or do you just hand the "independent entity" a pile of cash and let them do what they want?

Also, drug companies often hire physicians and researchers (often the best ones) to help with drug development far before any trial is run. Would you like to exclude those experts from input on the trial design?

From your comment I get the sense you have a limited understanding of what is really involved in drug development.


If we agree that a conflict-of-interest free system is the goal (and non-negotiable) then an independent entity is essential in a properly-functioning regulatory system.

However you appear to have retired undefeated as devil's advocate, as if the questions you put are unanswerable.

I would admit that there are more questions and answers that need to be given before we fully implement my HN comment, but that is hardly a refutation of the core idea: that a system free of conflict-of-interest requires independent entities and umpires that are more empowered than the conflicted interests in that system.

A recent Forbes opinion piece has its own take on inserting independent entities into the system [0]:

What we need is a construct with teeth, an established network of industry-independent researchers (not contractors) equipped to evaluate trial design, statistical power, data analysis, and interpretation, not as regulators but as contributors to final research publications. It would be a sort of Congressional Budget Office for clinical trial results.

Admittedly the position outlined in that article does not go as far as a completely independent entity operating all clinical trials for the purposes of regulatory approval, but it's in the right direction.

[0] http://www.forbes.com/sites/emilywillingham/2012/11/26/how-c...


The issue is not independent entities, it is the unwillingness of the gov't to use the powers it has.

For example, Pfizer was found guilty of promoting Bextra off label, a very serious charge from the viewpoint of the FDA and the Justice Department. Punishment includes banning companies from doing business with CMS (who run Medicare and Medicaid).

Pfizer entered into an agreement with the Justice Department/HHS where a shell company was allowed to plead guilty and be banned from doing business with Medicare. That's right, a shell company that doesn't actually sell any drugs.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/04/02/pfizer.bextra/index.htm...


Who said the issue was independent entities? That's the solution. The issue is conflicted interests having too much influence.

I'd agree the unwillingness of the gov't to use the powers it has is a problem. But that's a separate and equally important issue that others in this thread have flagged, filed under the label 'regulatory capture'.

It's not a situation that requires fire and brimstone and outrage. It should just be approached with dispassionate understanding: we have a defective system that is not designed to withstand attacks by self-interested system 'hackers'.

The solution is to design a system that neutralises short-term, narrow self-interest.


What would the short- to medium-term impact on the poor and elderly be if all Pfizer inventories suddenly weren't available? Are you sure it's worth it?


You have no idea how clinical trials work. There's no such simple solution in sight. At best you can ask for more transparency, but "independent" entities will not provide you much of a relief and will cause other issues, too.


I do not think you have worked in the clinical trial field, because it seems you have no idea how it actually works.

Publishing every single trial will probably also make more expensive.


You may be right and I may have gotten too zealous there, but more transparency is definitely needed as well as tighter regulations regarding the disclosure and involvement of funding parties.


My thoughts exactly. How many lives would this save? I think on the order of several thousand a year, minimum.


> It's amazing how we have organizations like Consumer Reports to give us objective reviews of toasters and cars, yet nothing like that exists for medications or medical devices, isn't it?

That's what you get when you end up with an overly-regulated market for drugs. You cannot publish anything about them without governmental authorization.

I agree with the premise of the petition but a petition is a very weak tool to reach that goal. It will get you nowhere.


i think the root cause has more to do with under-regulation, regulatory capture and proactive efforts to confuse and blur the boundaries. Bad Pharma is a good intro if you care to move past entry level comments.


Haha. I have read Bad Pharma and I have been following Goldacre for years and I agree mostly with what he says. Please do not assume my ignorance just because I disagree with your view.

I fail to see where there is "under-regulation" in the pharma industry. Try setting up a Pharma business, you will be surprised how hard it has become.


It's worth reading Testing Treatments, also funded by the James Lind Initiative. It's available for free at: http://www.testingtreatments.org/ . It's not the most exciting read, but it gives a good overview of uncertainty in medicine and the problems facing medical research.

At the end, there's a "things you can do" section, including:

> Agree to participate in a clinical trial only on condition (i) that the study protocol has been registered and made publicly available (ii) that the protocol refers to systematic reviews of existing evidence showing that the trial is justified; and (iii) that you receive a written assurance that the full study results will be published, and sent to all participants who indicate that they wish to receive them.

http://www.testingtreatments.org/tt-main-text/research-for-t...


It's not obvious what the goal of this organization is, other than showing that there is interest in reporting all results. It would be nice to have a clear plan that they want to implement.

The goal here should be simple -- all clinical tests for a drug must be registered before they being in order to be considered evidence of a drug's effectiveness. This has to be done on the level of the FDA or other drug-approving organization, and is a simple and effective means of achieving this end.

Studies that are registered but never publish results will be noted and can be used to identify organizations that either routinely trash results through negligence or poor planning (the good faith version) or who refuse to publish negative results (the bad faith version). In either case, this can be taken into consideration when considering whether to green light a drug.


It's been a backburner project of mine to data-mine the publicly-available clinical study information...while not all results are reported, there are useful meta-analyses that can be done (i.e. which companies are least likely to report, under what circumstances, such as study size and disease, are studies likely to omit info?).

It's not immediately evident, but ClinicalTrials.gov does provide their database in a structured format...probably the most convenient endpoint is this giant sitemap, which they have generated for scraping uses: http://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/about-site/crawling


You might be interested in the work the Cochrane Collaboration does: http://www.cochrane.org/


I've actually written a search crawler for clinicaltrials.gov. Their XML format is fairly convenient for parsing. I never thought for mining those types of data-points though. I suppose you could look at the study completion status and whether results are posted or not http://www.clinicaltrialweb.com


I think there's a lot of potential for meta-analyses...do a Google search for those that have been done by academia...I've seen some use the ClinicalTrials data as a proxy for seeing which diseases seem profitable enough to cure, or to see trends in the methodology of trial being done. It seems like an area in which a tech-savvy person could make inroads, as some of the scholarly research may not be done with the most efficient forms of data-gathering (i.e. not many scientists are programmers)


My experience of the status on clinicaltrials.gov is that it isn't always accurate. I don't think too much effort is put into keeping the data current.


They also actually have a structured format for download (CSV from an Oracle DB Dump).


So to make sure I have this straight, they'd like to compel a big pharmaceutical company like Pfizer to report all clinical data they've acquired, whether good or bad. Do I have that right?

What would be the effect on pharmaceutical companies from such a requirement (and how do you even enforce it)? Would they simply do fewer trials, to avoid the risk of a bad trial result hurting sales of a product?


"Would they simply do fewer trials, to avoid the risk of a bad trial result hurting sales of a product?"

Right now pharma companies run tens of thousands of fake trials where they have no intention of ever publishing the data because it's a way for them to legally pay doctors for signing up patients. Basically they just ask the doctor to fill out a one page survey at the end asking how they felt about how the medication worked, but it's garbage data that couldn't even be used for anything. Basically most phase IV trials, with the exception of the small number the government mandates as a condition for drug approval, are just a scam so that pharma companies can bribe doctors and also so they can list their marketing expenses as R&D in their SEC statements.

Also, the vast majority of trials are never published as journal articles even if they're registered. This is because there is no government mandate to actually report the results of any clinical trial, even the registered one. Which is why when determining the safety and efficacy of a drug you should never look at the published studies, because that will always give a wildly inaccurate view in a way that's extremely biased in favor of the drug companies. (This is what the FDA does when deciding wether or not to approve drugs.)


This is because there is no government mandate to actually report the results of any clinical trial, even the registered one.

Another comment [1] says that there is an FDA regulation to report results within a year [2]. Are you talking about something else, another type of trial or something?

[1] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5099671 [2] http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/about-site/results


The results are required to be posted on clinicaltrials.gov, though it isn't actually enforced from what I've read. But I was actually talking about how there is no requirement to publish the results in a medical journal. So there could be a dozen trials for every one that shows up in a PubMed search.


But there's going to be publication bias regardless of pharma's incentives, right? If I'm running a medical journal, why would I publish an article that says "this new slightly larger study also found drug x effective"?


An even better question would be: if I'm running a medical journal, why would I publish an article that states "new therapy for kidney cancer found not to be effective"

People forget that publishing a paper is no small feat in and of itself. Extensive data analysis, manuscript writing, reviewing, editing, legal clearance, etc.

Are people really suggesting that a pharma company who conducts a trial and figures out that 1/2 through the trial the drug isn't working should be forced to do a complete data analysis and publish the results? That sounds ridiculous.


This sounds very important if true. Citation needed?

(For fake studies, and for the vast majority of trials not being published.)


Elsevier published six fake journals, sponsored by pharmaceutical companies, designed to look like peer reviewed journals.

(http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view/articleNo/27383/...)


That's interesting, but doesn't seem directly relevant. Publishing non-peer-reviewed articles is not the same as faking trials or conducting studies and hiding the results.


The former head editor of NEJM wrote a book called The Truth About Drug Companies that describes it in good detail. Also the book The Emperors New Drugs and the book Overdosed America. The first is about phase 4 trials, the other books cover more general issues with phase 1-3 trials not getting published.


> Which is why when determining the safety and efficacy of a drug you should never look at the published studies

OK....what do you look at then ?


Unfortunately your only options are to file a FOIA request with the FDA or else rely on clinicaltrials.gov. Neither are great options for various reasons. But there have been a bunch of studies that compare all clinical trials with all published trials, and the results are pretty shocking. E.g. the reason why many people mistakenly believe that SSRIs are effective for moderate and severe depression (as opposed to not effective for any type of depression) is because the study that found that made the mistake of relying only on published research. (Which the authors of that study apparently acknowledged later on.)

In Irvin Kirsch's book The Emperor's New Drugs he goes over this at length.


> the reason why many people mistakenly believe that SSRIs are effective for moderate and severe depression (as opposed to not effective for any type of depression)

I'm taking an SSRI now, after about ten years off, and have taken them on and off for more than two decades, and they most definitely have a dramatic effect on anxiety and depression - the effects and general mechanism are pretty obvious. Basically, emotional reactivity is reduced as well as the tendency to ruminate. For me, this effect is clear as day, as are why it causes the side effects that it does which is why I typically don't stay on them for very long. While they don't work for everyone, SSRIs have been enormously popular for at least two decades.

So I gather that you believe the entirety of SSRI's popularity, as well as all the good/bad physiological effects many of us taking them find so apparent, are strictly placebo effect?


To paraphrase: "I'm taking SSRIs right now, and they work for me."

That's the medical equivalent of saying, "it works on my machine." That doesn't mean it works for everyone. It doesn't mean that it works for most people, or that there isn't a significant risk of harm to many people. Hell, your perception that it works for you doesn't even mean that it actually works for you (there could be confounding factors for all we know), and it certainly doesn't mean that it's likely to work better than the next-best alternative.

Think about it: If somebody says SSRIs are incorrectly believed to be effective due to publication bias, that pretty much presupposes that there's at least one study that showed that they work. That means that somebody, somewhere had a similar experience as you've had. That doesn't make your experience a sufficient basis for prescribing these drugs on a routine basis.

Clinical trials are like beta tests. The drug might work for some people (or some people might feel that it works), but that's not the only thing worth considering before you ship it to large numbers of people who need treatment.


I'm well aware of the "they work for me, therefore they work" fallacy. I also never said they work for everyone or even most people.

The fact is there's both positive and negative studies of SSRIs, the debate over their effectiveness remains ongoing, and at the moment these medications are widely accepted and used. Real world experience of these medications among a huge number of practitioners and patients is still ahead of this debate, in my opinion.


"So I gather that you believe the entirety of SSRI's popularity, as well as all the good/bad physiological effects many of us taking them find so apparent, are strictly placebo effect?"

When you say "I gather that you believe" you seem to be implying that it's an opinion question. But for what it's worth, that's not how it works exactly. Again read The Emperors New Drugs for a good explanation. The book Anatomy of an Epidemic also has some good info in the relevant chapter.


Going on your statement, "not effective for any type of depression", you're saying that the SSRI I'm taking has no effect whatsoever, and that nobody else has any benefits from SSRIs. The good effects we all report are imagined. I'd just like you to directly confirm that's what you're saying. It's a little rude to state that I'm completely misguided in my healthcare choices, then to wave it off as "just go read this book" when i question that.


It's incorrect to say that grandparent's quote "not effective" is the same as your phrase "no effect whatsoever."

The suggestion, following Irving Kirsch's book, that the SSRIs are broadly "not effective," is a statement about the distribution of outcomes over a population. (It also takes into account the fact that even placebos cause changes in outcomes, and that we consider a drug not to be "effective" if its outcomes do not differ meaningfully from those attributable to placebos.) This is maybe better stated as "not efficacious" because we're talking about efficacy, vs. placebo, in a population.

This is entirely different from the parent's (counterfactual) statement "the SSRI I'm taking has no effect whatsoever," which is an assertion about having any effect (not a relative effect vs. placebo) in a single individual (not a population).

"Not effective"[as a vector operation and vs. a baseline established by placebo] != "has no effect whatsoever"[as a scalar operation and vs. a baseline of no intervention]

Grandparent has most definitely not said that your perception of SSRI effects are "imagined," nor that you are "misguided." But you are arguing against a straw man until you at least acknowledge the distinctions here (which, it must be said, are pretty well explained in the book in question ;)


Thanks for the language litigation, I'm now aware of the many subtle inaccuracies in my language, despite my skepticism that my real question was really so occluded. So here it is again:

Is it your opinion that the popularity of SSRIs is misguided, and that their use would be better off discouraged, since they have been shown to be no more "effective" than placebo? That the vast majority of (or all?) patients who report "success" with SSRIs are simply experiencing an effect that could just as easily be delivered via sugar pill?

Wikipedia's paragraph on this here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_serotonin_reuptake_in...) has a decent summary of the current status. SSRIs have been shown, by two meta-analyses, to have a "clinically significant" effect for very severe depression, and a "statistically significant" effect for moderate depression, which is considered below the threshold of usefulness. The original poster's words were, "not effective for any type of depression". So will you correct this statement as well?


Again, you need to read the book(s) if you want to understand the argument. The Wiki paragraph doesn't actually do a good job explaining much of anything.


Just wanting a simple yes or no. Or "not sure". SSRIs, pointless or not, in your opinion/fact-based-knowledge/divine-guidance/whatever. Thanks.


nevermind, I've reviewed enough of Kirsch's book and discussion of it at this point to see that it is virulently opposed to antidepressants and is cited broadly by various career opponents of psychiatry as well as a large number of lay-people troubled by the concept of depression as a medical illness. And as one would expect, often challenged by actual psychiatrists (but not always), focusing mostly on the inherently flawed state of measurement with regards to depression.


Particularly troubling is the lack of critical analysis that can be found regarding Kirsch's book. Googling for it reveals tons of links from various magazines and news sites with sensationalistic headlines, feeding into an emotion that is easy to tap, which is the discomfort many people have with the entire concept of antidepressants. "Going on antidepressants? Read this first!" that kind of thing.

As for a formally written challenge to Kirsch, I could only find this times editorial http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/10/opinion/sunday/10antidepre... which makes the argument that someone in my position has already suspected, that the studies being cited are flawed - that it is exceedingly difficult to identify bona-fide "mildly or moderately depressed" people to participate in a study, not to mention that measuring depression is a completely subjective affair:

> Often subjects who don’t really have depression are included — and (no surprise) weeks down the road they are not depressed. People may exaggerate their symptoms to get free care or incentive payments offered in trials. Other, perfectly honest subjects participate when they are at their worst and then spontaneously return to their usual, lower, level of depression.

Without an objective means of measuring depression, measuring the effect of drugs objectively is not straightforward.

Kirsch has, like everyone else, approached this study with a definite bias, a career based on raising the prominence of the placebo affect. I'm not sure you can read a few books and declare "the truth" as case closed here, all ideas are subject to challenge. In this case I think there's a lack of interest in challenging this idea as the drug companies are obviously doing quite well (and I am no fan of drug companies) and probably don't want to raise more attention to it. It's an extraordinary claim that the millions of people who insist that SSRIs are very effective for them are being deceived en-masse, and one under-critiqued meta-study might not be enough to prove that claim.

Interesting comment on that article as well:

> "Papers showing that antidepressants work had found their way into print; unfavorable findings had not." The point is, that there are any number of ways a clinical trial can be run such that an "effective" drug will not be able to demonstrate a level of statistical significance. While there is no way you can run a clinical trial so that an "ineffective" drug will demonstrate a level of statistical significance. If you run nine clinical trials that fail to show a drug is active, and one clinical trial that shows that it is active; when presented with this kind of data, most people in the general public would wrongly conclude that the drug is not active. In fact, the correct conclusion is that the drug is active. That is why it is the job of qualified experts at the FDA, and not the public, to examine the information generated from clinical trials and pass judgment as to whether or not a drug has been proved to be "safe and effective".

If it were possible to make an ineffective drug demonstrate a level of statistical significance, then we'd have tons of studies proving the efficacy of homeopathy, wouldn't we ?


FDA FOIA (Freedom of Information Act) Links:

Commonly-requested documents: http://www.fda.gov/regulatoryinformation/foi/electronicreadi...

File a request: http://www.fda.gov/RegulatoryInformation/FOI/HowtoMakeaFOIAR...

Structured data about drug reactions ("adverse events") reported to the FDA: http://www.fda.gov/Drugs/GuidanceComplianceRegulatoryInforma...


Pfizer already publishes all their clinical trials

https://www.pfizer.com/research/research_clinical_trials/fin...

This is just a list of on-going trials, but I believe Pfizer has signed on to publishing their outcomes as well.


I expect that initial trials would be conducted in some outside venue where reporting was not required. Favorable ones would then be conducted again and reported. Almost the same situation we currently have.


It's not like these companies, from a business perspective, generally want to do any more clinical trials than are necessary.


Cherry-picked trials are empirically worthless - they are not better than no trials at all. Since drug companies need to submit drug trials to get through approval, it is hard to see how the result of such a rule could worsen the evidence we get.


There is a FDA regulation mandating publishing of basic results after 1 year of trial competition.

http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/about-site/results

There are currently about 7936 studies with "Results": http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/results?term=&recr=&rs...

Also, several major journals require authors to adhere to data reporting guidelines of CONSORT: http://www.consort-statement.org/home/


On the one hand, more public data the better!

On the other hand, it just sounds like more fodder for uneducated people^ to completely misunderstand what's going on, and all the various failings and pain that comes from that. The last thing we need is pundits and newspapers making wild and broken accusations and 'analysis' based on trying to find the linkbait side to every result.

^Which in the case of clinical trials and papers in general is 99.9% of people, including myself.


I know this isn't what you mean, but taken to the extreme, this is simply an argument against research.

I think that what you mean is that people with an agenda will point to a study with, say, a positive but insignificant effect, and say "well there is a positive effect" when they should actually say "there was no effect". In that case, I agree, but there's simply no avoiding that except through better education and more thoughtful phrasing in articles.


Yeah, I guess what I really mean is that I can understand the want or need for curation of this kind of content.

I can also understand that the curation can be done for good (let's not release this cause we screwed up and so the results are pointless and people might get the wrong idea) and for evil (as MBCook[0] said, "let's only release the one study out of 5 that proves the point which makes us the most money").

I typed the parent comment out quickly, and to be honest I'm still digesting my thoughts when it comes to this (I feel that for the most part digestion of these topics is a life constant).

[0]http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5099379


Curation can still happen, and those curatorial outlets will gain credibility on their own terms. Information is for everybody to use, you're arguing for anti-intellectualism.


One good way to self-educate on medical research in general is to read the Science-Based Medicine group blog

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/

regularly. My single favorite link to share in a Hacker News comment is the article "Warning Signs in Experimental Design and Interpretation" by Peter Norvig, director of research at Google, on how to interpret scientific research.

http://norvig.com/experiment-design.html

Check each news story you read for how many of the important issues in interpreting research are NOT discussed in the story.


I second SBM.


If it means that companies can't run 5 studies, and report only the one that shows the drug works better than a placebo, I'm on board.


People misunderstand things anyway. There is a reason why alternative medicine is huge (even though most of it doesn't work). People believe what they want to believe, fueled by confirmation bias.

Journalists suffer from the same problems, as well as the need to write something eye catching. But they already write about diet fads and other non-scientific health claims (and people believe in it), so I don't see how it could get any worse by having more trial data public.


> Which in the case of clinical trials and papers in general is 99.9% of people, including myself.

There are some books and websites that help, but it'd be great if there were more.

Ben Goldacre - Bad Science

Michael Harris - Medical Statistics Made Easy

Richard Smith - The Trouble With Medical Journals


Ben Goldacre has a new book out, Bad Pharma. http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/oct/17/bad-pharma-ben-g...

"His tales of drug companies buying the opinion of doctors is not the most alarming of his revelations. Goldacre sets out clearly what is wrong with the way drugs get on to the market.

New drugs are tested by the companies that make them, often in trials designed to make the drug look good, which are then written up and published in medical journals. Unless, that is, the company doesn't like the result of the trial (maybe it shows the drug not working or having severe side-effects), in which case this result might be hidden.

Regulators should have all the data on a drug's effects but they often don't share it, so researchers can't study the data. The book gives examples of regulatory bodies handing over page after page containing blacked-out results to academics trying to collect data from unpublished trials, the excuse for non-disclosure being commercial sensitivity.

Companies pay doctors to extol the virtues of their drugs on the conference circuit (spelling out the sources of information they want doctors to use) and fund patient groups to lobby regulators to approve new drugs."


I guess the most easily accessible info is Ben Goldacre's TED talks, based on his books "Bad Pharma" and "Bad Science":

http://www.ted.com/talks/ben_goldacre_what_doctors_don_t_kno...

http://www.ted.com/talks/ben_goldacre_battling_bad_science.h...


The last thing we need is pundits and newspapers making wild and broken accusations and 'analysis' based on trying to find the linkbait side to every result.

To me, that doesn't sound like a problem with open access, it sounds like a problem with trusting untrustworthy sources. How many times do you see something you know about being reported on, and them getting it wrong? Why would anyone trust pundits and newspapers?


My concern is not that I would (I am actually decent at reading abstracts and things like that, though I still wouldn't trust my opinion on a subject I'm not deeply versed in), it's that other people would. People are still not vaccinating their children because of one broken paper, it's madness.

Now, whether or not that means you should have invisible hands curating content before it reaches the eyes of the public, I'm still not really sure where I stand.



More info here: http://www.badscience.net/2013/01/alltrials-campaign-launche...

"Overall, about half of all clinical trials have never been published, and we know that trials with negative results about a treatment are much more likely to be brushed under the carpet."

Bonus: By having all trials public, researchers won't waste time researching something that has already been researched (replication aside).


Forcing pharma companies to publish all their research is like asking startups to publish data on every technology stack they used & tested, everything from A/B testing, usage stats etc. Interesting, yes. Funny it was your industry, probably not.

Sometimes in a clinical trial a drug is discovered to not "work" in some patients, for example ones that have a concurrent condition (drug x works fine except if patient also has condition y). The results of that trial may not be published. Trials can be used to fine tune the profile of the patient you ultimately want to prescribe it to. I don't really understand what the problem is with that. Companies in almost all industries conduct research behind close doors.

I worked for big pharma doing clinical trials for 5 years and really disliked it, but I feel there's a serious witchhunt going on. People are being very vocal over something they know little about.


Seems like a great idea though I wonder if there must be some trials that are flawed and would mischaracterize a drug either negatively or positively. Otoh, if some studies could be excluded based on major flaws, of course this would be a major loophole.


That would be awesome.

I'm hesitant buy some of the supplements at http://examine.com/ because I don't know how many negative trials go unreported. Some things like creatine have overwhelming evidence in favor of their efficacy, but the evidence of efficacy of other things like beta alanine is less convincing and would be heavily impacted by negative studies withholding their results.


All Clinical studies should have all results given to indivuals who take part in a clinical trial. I was asked while on chemotherepy to take part in a clinical trial regarding DPD enzyme deficiency and 5-FU, Robarts did the study in 2007 in London, On. I still wonder if I have the defoiency and what exactly it could mean to me. Snowy


I am terrified of the idea that you're trying to encourage governments to compel scientists to do anything against their will. Washington doesn't have this right any more than they have a right to read your encrypted email.


If scientists want to experiment on citizens then they should publish whatever results they find. If Wonder Drug X is found to have no positive effect, or worse, cause Exploding Heart Syndrome then that needs to be publicly released. Even if it conflicts with the profit motives of the corporation.

That should be the standard trade-off for the ability to treat humans as rats.


I think scientists generally are in favour of having the results of their trials published. It's their employers that generally aren't when it's not in their commercial interests to do so. I'm not sure drug tests fall under the "right to privacy" in the same way as private communications either.

I'd expect at the very least governments ought to compel the release of results from any trials [part]funded by public bodies


It's actually the other way around!

Imagine we currently had a well-designed, scientific regulatory system. All clinical trial activity was transparent so that regulatory bodies and the public had the complete picture of the efficacy and safety of pharmaceutical products.

Now imagine pharmaceutical companies were lobbying government to allow them to instead filter their clinical trial data, suppressing scientists from publishing negative data, and only publishing positive data to support their products. They launched a site called http://www.sometrials.com, arguing that only publishing some trials reduced regulatory cost and burden, ensuring cheaper drugs for more people. Wink wink.

Then a modified version of your statement would make a lot of sense, imho: I am terrified of the idea that pharmaceutical companies are trying to compel scientists to do anything against their will. Private corporations don't have this right any more than they have the right to read your encrypted email.


By definition clinical trials do not happen in a void, there is already a system of Institutional Review Boards and controls to prevent abuse of patients and to prevent experimentation without informed consent. This would be an extension of that.

And more generally, if you are running experiments with human beings; society has a material interest in both the process and the results.


At the very least, there should be no issue with requiring this of any trials that use government funds, no?


That I will gladly concede, so long as that expectation is communicated as a condition of the funding.


The results of any clinical trial of anything medical seeking government approval should be public.


I flip a coin a thousand times, but only show you the results where "heads" came up. Do you believe me when I say that "Coin tosses result in heads all the time"? If yes, then you're probably the FDA.


Given how easy it is to fool the FDA, why are only ~35 new compounds submitted for approval each year? And why are only ~25 approved?

Note that the fact that trial results aren't released to the public doesn't mean that they aren't disclosed to the FDA.


Why not place a reddit button on the page with a link to the submission?


I really want to know the results of the Phase III clinical trials of Enobosarm (also known as Ostarine, GTx-024 and MK-2866) !!

I loudly apploud the poster for the having the nuts to put up a great site =)


Is there a way this could be solved through a wikileaks like organization? I imagine there has to be at least one disgruntled FDA bureaucrat...


Is it just me or are the "sign" links broken and just point to the home page?


The right to free speech includes the right to be silent.


Huh? These are corporations running studies, then selectively submitting only the most positives results to a federal regulation body who's responsible for determining whether or not the product is safe for consumption.

What does free speech have to do with it?


Corporations consist of individuals that voluntarily associate with one another. A man has the right to free speech when he is alone, and he retains that same right as he forms and maintains his compacts with others.

Free speech means that you communicate what you want, when you want, if you want.

(Quick aside, with two points: First, the right to free speech doesn't guarantee you the means of broadcasting your views. Such a "right" would mean enslaving those tasked with providing those means, violating their actual rights. Second, not all utterances constitute speech: the words a mafia boss uses to order the beating of a recalcitrant shopkeeper or the murder of a rival are not examples of speech.)


This is the U.S.; corporations have a protected right to free speech.


Which is just another example of how badly broken the legal system is in the U.S.


Drug companies may exercise the right not to provide information to the NDA (or whoever), but they won't get their drugs approved.

You do not, for comparison, have the right to obtain a passport while exercising your right to silence in response to the information requests from the issuing authority.




Consider applying for YC's W25 batch! Applications are open till Nov 12.

Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: