and yet, ironically, if it had been an englishman, anything unpleasant would have been cheered on by the scots (for those who are unaware - casual anti-english 'racism' is absolutely common, accepted, unquestioned).
i lived and worked in scotland for a couple of years.
In some cases it's a genuine dislike (and worth noting that it's one way or at least stronger in one direction - the English are largely indifferent to the Scots) but in most cases these days it's more a more casual comedy thing, similar to the way the English dislike the French - they don't really but it's fun to have a frenemy.
As with most prejudice it goes largely with education (or lack of). I'd suggest that anyone who had an opinion on McKinnon (or any similar case) would probably be open minded and informed enough not to really be biased.
Just a mild defence of my adopted home - I'm English living in Glasgow and have never seen or experienced any genuine anti-English racism.
But we'll see just how many Scots want shot of the English in a couple of years when we get the independence vote. Current polls suggest that they're not so anti-English that they want to go their own way...
but in most cases these days it's more a more casual comedy thing, similar to the way the English dislike the French - they don't really but it's fun to have a frenemy.
I think this is totally accurate, but I worry this subtly is lost on some people, and especially kids. I'm English, and lived in Scotland between the age of 10 and 14, and the genuine anti-English victimization I received both at school and out and about was ridiculous. It never bothered me, perhaps because I don't really consider myself, "English" having (at that point) never lived there, but I remember being genuinely shocked. I expect it's much the same a French child would experience coming to school at that age in the UK.
Kids see their parents or comedians mock the English/French, but don't necessarily distinguish between, "banter" and genuine disdain. Hopefully those kids grow up to identify that difference, although some of the experiences I had would suggest this may not always be the case.
> I'm English, and lived in Scotland between the age of 10 and 14, and the genuine anti-English victimization I received both at school and out and about was ridiculous
But please don't make out that this only happens in Scotland. I'm Scottish but went to school in England and had a similar experience.
While banter between Scotland and England as countries has been going on for centuries, the idea that all (or even most) Scottish people would be happy to see an individual tormented just because he's English is, well, that's just you being a bigot.
Not nonsense at all. Anti-English racism is rife in Scotland, all too vocal, all too public, except of course when they're asking for English handouts.
> except of course when they're asking for English handouts
Ah, the myth of the English handout, somewhere between massively unclear and nonsense.
Yes some of Scotland's current spending is subsidised by oil revenue which won't last for ever but when that money was flowing south during the 80s I don't recall the English complaining about it as unsustainable. The UK treasury would of course question that those revenues are entirely Scottish though I'm not clear on what grounds other than political expediency.
Stephanie Flanders of the BBC on the subject: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16477990 (also makes the point that taking oil out of the equation Scotland's subsidy isn't massively out of line with many parts of England).
Scot here. Majority of that "anti-english" racism would have been in gest, part of the banter. I've moved around several parts of Scotland and can confirm that it is just part of the humour landscape. Most Scottish people have no problem with England or English people. (I understand the media's portrayal of the independence debate may sully this, but independence it about more than getting away from England 305 years later). British people could be held to the same standard in our treatment of Germany with a constant berating of WWII jokes, however we in-fact have no issue with Germany and realise it was a long time ago.
I personally don't take offence at the anti-English banter.
But, I challenge you to engage in the same kind of banter with Asians, blacks, or homosexuals, etc, and let me know how that pans out for you.
Is there a material difference, apart from the fact that English people don't take offence? In my opinion, anti-English statements don't really offend because a sense of Englishness is felt much less by an Englishman compared to how a Scot would feel his/her Scottishness. We're just not a very nationalistic buch.
I do agree that most Scottish people have no problem with English folk. On a personal level, it is just "banter". The more distateful sentiments are aimed at England as a nation, as far as I have experienced.
OK, let's do why anti-white (or anti-English) sentiment isn't the same as anti-black sentiment.
The issue isn't banter, it's that in some cases historical context gives "banter" overtones of something far more serious.
The Scots didn't buy and sell the English as property as recently as 100 years ago (did you know Britain only abolished slavery in parts of Nigeria in 1936?), the English didn't have their behaviour outlawed in the way homosexuals have (and they still don't have equality in the UK though it's getting closer) and the English can't make any claim that given a particular level of intelligence or ability they are less likely to go to university and more likely to end up in prison the way that would be the case if they were black.
Being English in Scotland offers no genuine sacrifice, disadvantage or oppression and hasn't for a long long time if ever. The same isn't true of any of the minority groups you mention.
So banter is fine and if you're English in Scotland it is just banter.
If you're in another minority group with a more difficult history then you need to consider that banter often hides or raises the spectre of something worse which makes it a very different thing.
So, based on the context you have described, it is impossible for me to experience racism in Scotland under the veil of "banter". It can only be just a joke?
That's not what I said at all and I suspect you know it.
What I'm saying is that taking what often gets said between English and Scots and drawing a parallel to how they might be seen if directed towards the minority groups you mention isn't a valid comparison.
A history of discrimination can give certain remarks a very different meaning. Context is everything and centuries of oppression is quite some context and doesn't exist between the English and Scots (at least not in a way that the English can have any issue with).
So does this not mean that a white person in (say) Nigeria would not be able to claim they were experiencing racism if they were targeted because of their skin colour? [I'm not, in any way trying to be inflammatory]
I actually agree with a lot of what you're saying, but I'm not sure historical context gives a perfect mechanism to categorize racism or banter, but it does give a lot of weight, certainly.
The lack of historical discrimination doesn't preclude discrimination happening now, and the existence of it doesn't preclude the possibility that banter can just be banter and be taken as such on both sides.
What it does mean is that you can't just assume that the same words or behaviour means the same thing when directed at different groups.
The specific example I was responding to said try saying some of the things a Scot might say to and Englishman to a black person and see how far you get. My response to that is you can say the same words in the same tone of voice but it doesn't mean the same thing as everything that came before and goes along with those words is different.
I'm not saying that Scots can't be genuinely prejudiced against English (in a small number of cases they are - there are arseholes in every society), I'm saying what is acceptable or unacceptable between Scots and English is not the same as what's acceptable between white people and black people.
To turn it the other way around, I'm sure it wouldn't take much to find something I could say to a Scot about their history which would be horribly insulting but wouldn't be remotely offensive to, say, an Asian.
Does the fact that the Asian man didn't find it insulting make it OK to say to the Scot?
You should be aware that exactly the same sort of banter is directed by English people at Welsh, Scots, French, Americans and practically every other nation living in England (I've experienced some of this myself as a Scot living in England), it is exactly the same in tone and intent as ribbing of English people in Scotland, and yes, sometimes it does have a nasty edge to it in any country, esp. when it is directed in a general way at an entire nation/race.
Silly, and sometimes ignorant, but there we are, that's patriotism for you; the last refuge of the scoundrel, as an erudite Englishman once said - you should hear what he had to say about the benighted scots...
Having lived in a few places, I'd say people everywhere like to generalise about other nations and tell themselves they know what 'those people' are like, I've done it myself a few times, and I've always been wrong when I did.
That's not the opinion of this Scot, at least. On that note, I have personally experienced similar treatment from English colleagues in a foreign country. And yet, it was an Englishman that gave me the job I'm still working in.
