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Honestly, the text looks like it was written by someone who does not understand hobbyist programming.

It's not fun. The activity is not an enjoyable act of entertainment. It's stressful, time consuming and miserable.

The result is what matters. You did something. Learned something. For you, not because it was in some work planning. It provides catharsis.

That sort of catharsis does not exist in some work related environment. It never will, unless stars align magically, which they almost never do.

I am highly skeptic of this "code is fun" perspective. Always was.

That's why "all your base belong to us" kind of contracts in which stuff made outside work COULD become property of the hiring company makes otherwise happy developers into depressive under-productive nightmares. Let them code the toy thing unharmed in their spare time, for fucks sake.

Let it be the real thing. Stop this nonsense fairytale.

It is for your own good. It prevents companies from hiring con men, it prevents young folk from being drawn to a career they will despise, it prevents massive loss of investment.

I wanted to code for catharsis. To learn. To feel I made something. Wanted, past tense. These "code for fun" people were serious contributors to my burnout.






I don't find knitting fun, which is why I don't do it. Even if in theory I like the idea of creating custom clothing on the cheap, and whatnot.

Maybe that's what programming is to you.


I do it for catharsis, to learn, to feel like I did something of my own.

Maybe you do because of the fun. Then you don't need me. Leave me alone.


Right, it's just semantics then. I forgot how much HN can argue for no reason.

In any case, I'm happy to grant you your wish.


> Honestly, the text looks like it was written by someone who does not understand hobbyist programming.

I don't think that at all. I think he just has a different perspective on it than you do. Whilst your perspective is valid, some people actually do enjoy the work of coding, especially if they can do so in an environment where they can immediately check intermediate results and use those to shape their coding trajectory as they work, creating a tight OODA loop. (Hi, Lisp!)

> That's why "all your base belong to us" kind of contracts in which stuff made outside work COULD become property of the hiring company makes otherwise happy developers into depressive under-productive nightmares. Let them code the toy thing unharmed in their spare time, for fucks sake.

> Let it be the real thing. Stop this nonsense fairytale.

On this we can agree. I think that for programming to be fun it has to be something you want to see come into fruition, i.e., not any random thing someone else wants to see, done to their schedule by their rules. Good tech companies -- game studios in the 90s, Google in the early days, even Microsoft in the early days -- knew how to make the golden goose as comfortable as possible while slipping out the back with the eggs.

But in the late 90s, Jim McCarthy's "Beware of a guy in a room" became iron gospel among management types, who interpreted it as meaning that developers must be subjected to a panopticon in which what they are doing at all times is tracked and analyzed by the chain of command going up to the C level. Hence Scrum, SAFe, and all that malarkey, and we've forgotten how to "let 'em cook" as the kids say now.


Sorry, still sounds like a fairy tale.

I was fine doing some hours of planned teamwork. As long as I had some time to work on things I want. Spare non paid time.

For those things I want to program on that spare time, I don't want anyone snooping around to collect anything. I realize I don't want anyone encouraging, questioning, giving advice, talking about it.

The problem is much deeper. As I mentioned, this "code for fun" people had a prominent role in my burning out. They act as catharsis blockers as much as scrum people.

It makes no sense to try anything anymore. There could be a con man happy supporter just around the corner waiting to "collect the egg for free". I will rather let them starve.

Maybe this is exactly what the profession needs. A mass strike of some sort. Not for higher pay, but for better work conditions. It probably won't happen in my time.




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