The level of naiveté in this discussion is absolutely astonishing to me. People are seeming to forget that dysfunctional states (totalitarian, facist, the like) all are sprung from one common thread: control of the mind through propaganda. We already have evidence that the CCP or otherwise is manipulating Tiktok's algorithm to influence American minds [1]. This was one study, by one relatively small and underpowered organization. That's to say, there's probably a lot that we've yet to unearth about how the algorithm is manipulated; or how the CCP is planning to manipulate it to further their agenda at the expense of an American one.
It's simply unbelievable to me that a sophisticated community like HN is against a ban in the context of all of the meddling our biggest rival, China, has done in our country to our direct disadvantage. Russia and China's main M.O. has been to divide us; to sow discontent. And they've been pretty successful. Who knows if Trump would have been elected without the Russian election interference. Trump has been a divisive figure who has reveled in destroying social order and he has done so successfully; the amount of hate and distrust for one's opposing political party is at an all-time high in the US, and it shows. This is to say that China and Russia have already been very successful in their attempts. In China Xi likes to say that "The East is rising, the West is falling". This is completely his M.O. and part of his plan.
And now Trump, aware of all of this, is attempting to bring Tiktok back. Knowing everything he knows about it's use and potential future use of a propaganda machine. And knowing full-well that this is good for the East, and bad for domestic civil peace of mind and social order. And in the most Trumpian way possible, he doesn't care. And he's doing it for the most selfish reason possible--to feed his hero complex. Full. Fucking. Stop. This is such a glaring advertisement that he will do whatever he can to put his interests and reputation first over our country's and it's absolutely sickening.
And the fact that there is actual debate and discussion around this issue on HN is just such a shocker. Again, this community should know better about how dangerous propaganda is, amplified by the fact that it's propaganda from our most rapacious, unethical and conniving enemy. An enemy that is planning wars of conquest, who's starving and torturing parts of its population. You want that enemy deciding what your kid spends an hour a day watching on their phone, while you're not paying attention? Yeah, good luck with that.
This word is incongruent with your use of this word:
>enemy
Especially in light of the fact that you consistently fail to identify which identity is doing this:
>An enemy that is planning wars of conquest, who's starving and torturing parts of its population.
Pop-quiz: which nations have been consistently at war since March, 2003? Which nations have established 1,000 torture dungeons around the globe? Which nations have portions of their populations, by design, living in desperate poverty, feeding a for-profit prison-industrial complex, every single day, with fresh meat?
The ability to identify propaganda is not as important as the ability to identify duplicity. One cannot have the former without the latter.
the issue is not that tiktok harvests user data, not free speech, not that China is refuses to let US counterparts operate in China - the issue is, TikTok is an insidious propaganda machine that influences our your people, and entire generation, to abandon their values and replace them with views favorable to the CCP
daily, hourly, and each minute young people interact with TikTok, they're influenced by a foreign adversary.
it's telling them Ukraine is the actual aggressor, that Putin is "based", that China is a paradise, that the West is falling, that China has a valid claim on all the maritime disputes, among other things that are non-truths
i owe the rise of antisemitism among young people to TikTok. young people who otherwise do not hold a negative opinion towards Israel suddenly became anti-Israel and hold hatred towards Jews
i have experienced the above first-hand. my account doesn't interact with any current affairs, yet I am bombarded with anti-Israel narratives. there are thousands - yes, thousands - of antisemitic comments and replies under each video. and young people read them and think it's normal - that it's normal to think this way and say such things at loud
i reported hundreds of such comments. all my reports, according to TikTok, did not violate their "community standards". instead, my replies to those comments were removed for violating their "community standards"
(to the people who'll say it's not true, i have data to back it up, and i can send a link to a huggingface repo that contains the dataset)
it is clear pro-CCP and CCP-aligned views are promoted while others are supressed.
i live in a country with tensions with China, and my TikTok FYP page is flooded with pro-CCP narratives and narratives that suggest my country is weak and hopeless
TikTok is a national security issue. it's not enough the TikTok divests from China. it must be banned for the sake of the next century.
Yes! Thank you for helping me affirm internally that I'm not crazy.
I agree all of these other arguments that people are fixating on are complete red herrings. The 'fairness' of letting them operate their companies here and not letting us operate there—totally non consequential argument and a red herring. The free speech thing is a blatant red herring and the Supreme Court agreed in a unanimous decision. If America is the sinking ship, then these arguments are the deck chairs.
Totally agree on the antisemitism points—the way that the platform is manipulating it's algorithm to shape opinions is very nefarious in that it's subtle and becomes difficult to prove directly. But researchers look deeper and deeper, they've been able to find evidentiary smoking guns. I would posit that there are many clues hiding in plain sight that have not been looked into yet.
Anyways, I would have expected a lot more discussion around the points that you and I bring up (points of actual consequence) rather than what I'm currently seeing on HN.
But you simply cannot be taken seriously when you claim that openly pro-Israel establishments like the NYT and BBC are biased against Israel - it's just utterly ludicrous, and demonstrably false.
> young people who otherwise do not hold a negative opinion towards Israel suddenly became anti-Israel
You're not seriously blaming TikTok for anti-Israel sentiment?! Couldn't possibly have anything to do with the genocide being carried out by the apartheid state of Israel?
> why are you so obsessed with the State of Israel?
Because my government has suffered from Israeli interference, and because my government is supporting the apartheid state of Israel's genocide of the Palestinian people - providing weapons, financial aid, political aid and manufacturing consent for genocide.
Because Israel is carrying out a modern day holocaust, all while constantly lying and fabricating evidence. Because I've seen/heard/read with my own eyes and ears the insane horrors the IDF is inflicting on the Palestinian people - just such incredible, unfathomable evil. I can never unsee what I've seen.
Because Zionists and their Hasbara lackeys spread hatred, racism and Islamophobia, and have smeared opponents with false claims of antisemitism.
> do you seriously believe there are Hasbara in HN?
Yes, there are all over all forms of social media [0] [1]. It would be stretching credulity to believe they weren't active here.
> most people in HN are anti-Israel
Haha, laughably false! This is the same kind of tired deflection that Hasbara use all the time.
> this community should know better about how dangerous propaganda is
Bear in mind that a large part of this community is employed by the same companies that built the tools used to spread propaganda and disinformation. It wouldn't be in their interest to disclose that they're part of the problem, so it's easier to ignore that the problem even exists.
People seem to discount the way they are influenced by the media they are served. I’m seeing a lot of comments about “free agency” and how “people make up their own minds” rather than 1 to 1 believing what they read. This argument just ignores human nature. We evolved to catch onto ideas, good and bad, and be able to rationalize them in ways that often ignore the true outside state of the world. In this light we should strongly critique those who are the purveyors of information. Although I have many criticisms of even those who are serving information domestically, the idea that we’re going to trust a malicious foreign actor with molding the shape of our minds is just nonsensical.
> And the fact that there is actual debate and discussion around this issue on HN is just such a shocker.
Thats what makes HN special, the community questions, discusses and debates. It doesnt just jump to an emotional response as it seems like you have done. If you cant engage in a debate or discussion around something you dont agree with, the HN is not the place to be.
With all of my commentary, this is the point that you're fixated on? I'm clearly not saying that I don't agree with the fact that there's disagreement here, I'm just surprised about the nature of the disagreement. The HN crowd is sophisticated, and to see that they're supportive of reinstating Tiktok on the grounds of 'free speech' or what have you seems like a reductionist oversimplification to me. To argue that we should allow Tiktok because of free speech, in the global context of how it's being used as a data mining and mind-manipulation machine seems like a total non starter to me. And I would expect more community members to weigh that more seriously given how seriously they take security; given the context of how much time the community spends splitting hairs about the future of encryption, forever boycotting Arc for exposing a cookie, etc.
the comment that wong replied to was unsubstantial. wong should not have responded the way they did but samr71 comment was in fact posting reddit level diatribe without engaging in good faith after wong clearly put time and effort into their post.
The last part would have added something to the conversation over your initial post. You are actually under no obligation to post at all, the downvote arrow is right there.
Earnestly though, you can always take your post, toss it into a llm and ask it to make it sound kind or helpful. Or give it the HN comment guidelines and ask it if your comment runs afoul or ways to make it more helpful. It’s up to you to find a way to add meaningfully to the discourse or just be prepared to be downvoted. Assume good faith is the best way to start.
It's simply unbelievable to me that a sophisticated community like HN is against a ban in the context of all of the meddling our biggest rival, China, has done in our country to our direct disadvantage. Russia and China's main M.O. has been to divide us; to sow discontent. And they've been pretty successful. Who knows if Trump would have been elected without the Russian election interference. Trump has been a divisive figure who has reveled in destroying social order and he has done so successfully; the amount of hate and distrust for one's opposing political party is at an all-time high in the US, and it shows. This is to say that China and Russia have already been very successful in their attempts. In China Xi likes to say that "The East is rising, the West is falling". This is completely his M.O. and part of his plan.
And now Trump, aware of all of this, is attempting to bring Tiktok back. Knowing everything he knows about it's use and potential future use of a propaganda machine. And knowing full-well that this is good for the East, and bad for domestic civil peace of mind and social order. And in the most Trumpian way possible, he doesn't care. And he's doing it for the most selfish reason possible--to feed his hero complex. Full. Fucking. Stop. This is such a glaring advertisement that he will do whatever he can to put his interests and reputation first over our country's and it's absolutely sickening.
And the fact that there is actual debate and discussion around this issue on HN is just such a shocker. Again, this community should know better about how dangerous propaganda is, amplified by the fact that it's propaganda from our most rapacious, unethical and conniving enemy. An enemy that is planning wars of conquest, who's starving and torturing parts of its population. You want that enemy deciding what your kid spends an hour a day watching on their phone, while you're not paying attention? Yeah, good luck with that.
https://networkcontagion.us/reports/the-ccps-digital-charm-o...