> Expecting hands on skills from a degree isn't fair because it is not what a degree means.
I have heard this argument many times and happen to think it is a false argument.
Universities (in the US) are not what they used to be. They are not culturally open. They have become dangerous monoculture indoctrination centers. STEM degrees, due to their nature, are not impacted as hard as are others. People in other non-STEM paths are in full-on monoculture indoctrination programs, even if not explicitly stated.
What isn't fair is for people to attend university in the US, graduate with hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt and not end-up with at least two things: Marketable skills that are competitive with anyone from other countries and, well, culture.
It just so happens that I attended both high school and university abroad and in the US. My family moved about due to business when I was in school. I have perspective to offer from the UK, US and Argentina.
I can tell you, without a shadow of a doubt, that US education has been an unmitigated disaster for DECADES. The problem with this is that, even if changes were to be made today, it will also take decades for the results to surface.
I am an immigrant in the US. I graduated from high school with a far deeper and broader cultural foundation than I would say most college graduates in the US. This is no joke. And this is why, if I were to use a nasty generalization, Americans are regarded as dumb and ignorant outside of the US. Of course, this isn't absolutely fair, it's a stereotype, and stereotypes do not apply to the entire population. However, there are measurable elements of this. Our schools are broken, from the bottom up.
We have a country where people graduate from university actually believing that communism and socialism are good things. This sounds so fucking stupid to immigrants who have actually lived in these regimes that I cannot even begin to describe it. It is surreal to see how the US has allowed this to happen.
To go back to what you said: "Expecting hands on skills from a degree isn't fair"
No my friend, what isn't fair is to graduate with $100K to $300K in debt and have that degree be so dubious that you have to endure five technical interviews before someone considers hiring you. And, in addition to that, the jobs you could have had go to H1B's because companies can make a case that you are not adequate for the job.
We should not make our children pay for substandard education. That is not fair.
My solution is simple: Stop pretending that we are teaching real culture and fire all the ideological assholes from these universities. Nobody should be forced to pay one single cent for this crap.
Teaching should be a meritocracy. Our schools are filled with "teachers" and "professors" that are worse than YouTube tutorial authors. Why are we making our children pay for mediocrity and incompetence.
I remember one of my kids having a science teacher in middle school who actually taught his classes that the moon does not rotate about its axis. And that was not the only incredibly ignorant thing he taught. I went to war and tried to get him fired. He had no business teaching science at all. He was a Chiropractor who got his teaching credentials and they gave him the science spot because he had "Dr." in his name. Well, I could not get him hired. The union protected him. Jokes on me, he retired after 30 years on the job with full pension and healthcare benefits for life. Who knows how many kids he ruined through his "teachings".
Teachers should be paid very well and held to a very high standard.
In university STEM fields, teach STEM and only STEM. Graduate people with world class skills. Reduce the cost by eliminating that 25% of coursework that no employer cares about. If a student chooses to study non STEM subjects, sure, be my guest, they can pay for them and there are no loan guarantees for the universities (which will lower their cost). Critically, they should not be conditions for graduation.
We can pretend US colleges are about culture all we want. However, the evidence in the real world is that they do a shit job across the board and change is badly needed.
you got this from one episode on foxnews or you had to watch many to get all this together? :)
where do you think bezos, zuck, gates, jobs… went to school - fucking Argentina?!
what a nonsense drivel you wrote - quite insane!
us educational system has a lot of issues. tough to expect otherwise given the size as well as the fact that one of the two major political parties in the US likes their voters dumb - the dumber the better. but it is still the best educational system on the planet, otherwise the kids of US elite would be flocking schools in fucking Argentina (they are not and never will)
This is such a common and tired meme. It aims to stomp on something that someone said with a nonsensical argument. A bit of shooting the messenger and an appeal to authority (the veil attack being that everything that isn't Fox News is true and pure).
Fox News has its problem, every media outlet has. And yet, 95% of so-called reliable "news" outlets lied to the entire nation for over three years about such things as Biden's cognitive problems (and much more). Be careful who you choose as your source for truth. You should not trust anyone in the media. Yes, that means FNN included.
To address your personal attack: I had better math, history, science and, yes, English scores in public high school in Massachusetts as a foreign student educated in Argentina. I could read and write better than most in my class. I knew more about history, geography, philosophy and was better at math, physics, chemistry, etc. So, say what you want, at least this one data point, as flawed as it might be, actually lived through many experiences that showed me the real differences. Later on I made sure my own children did not fall victims to these inadequacies by supplementing the substandard education (at a world level) with learning at home.
And this isn't about just one country outside the US. For example, I have friends in Singapore, Italy, Spain, Germany and other places whos kids can run circles around your average US-educated high-school graduate.
> where do you think bezos, zuck, gates, jobs… went to school - fucking Argentina?!
One would think that before someone decides to make a comment like that they would take a few minutes to actually educate themselves and understand what they are about to say. Go learn about the people you listed there and understand.
Your insulting comments about Argentina (or nations other than the US by extension) is precisely why people around the world have formed certain opinions about Americans. You lack perspective, culture and knowledge about what you owe the rest of the world. Be humble, learn a little history and understand the shoulders you are standing on. If the history of the modern world is a meter long, the US is responsible for approximately 1 millimeter of it, if that.
Here, I'll give you a push-start: Go read about the history of the artificial heart, heart bypass surgery and blood transfusions. And, while you are at it, make a list of science, engineering and cultural contributions from around the world for some perspective.
You can believe anything you wish. Or you can make an attempt to understand reality and be a part of the solution. I want things to change for the better. It appears that you actually believe we have the best system of education. Well, I am not sure what to say other than: You are wrong. We might actually have one of the worst.
* Well, I am not sure what to say other than: You are wrong. We might actually have one of the worst.*
if you believe this and your children are here in the US that would be borderline child abuse to subject your own flesh and blood to the worst educational system…
I said FoxNews mostly because you are tauting word-for-word party-line garbage without any thought of your own on the matter.
people from all over the world come to the United States (including yourself and myself) to get educated. Absolute best higher education schools are here. If polled random 100 people from developer nations to name 10 non-US universities roughly 99 of them would stop at like 6.
shitting on US education is ring-wing garbage you are trying to sell and you should not be selling it cause no sane person will be buying it.
> shitting on US education is ring-wing garbage you are trying to sell and you should not be selling it cause no sane person will be buying it.
First of all, your right-wing characterization is wrong, insulting and distasteful. You have revealed much about yourself when choosing to take this approach instead of having a conversation, so I do not expect you to apologize. So be it.
It is really interesting to me to see just how common it is for some to attempt to attack ideas or discourse by making such accusations. The parallels to the story from Hans Christian Andersen's "The Emperors New Clothes" and even Plato's Allegory of the Cave are impossible to ignore.
Once again, the most recent examples of the delusion being the massive lies and deception around Biden's mental health, the southern border and the crime it brought into our nation, to name just a few. These are truths that stand on their won, regardless of where they might be printed, heard or viewed.
> I said FoxNews mostly because you are tauting word-for-word party-line garbage without any thought of your own on the matter.
Again, you make assumptions and deliver insults. It appears one cannot possibly be critical of the Emperor, who actually is naked, without being accused of all sorts of things. He is naked my friend. Can't you see?
> if you believe this and your children are here in the US that would be borderline child abuse to subject your own flesh and blood to the worst educational system…
No, you are wrong, and what you are saying is a ridiculous stretch. You are not thinking.
I want education in the US to improve for all children, because a better-educated people will improve things for everyone. The only way this happens is if we are honest and critical. Thinking that education in the West is, as you put it, the absolute best, is like being chained in Plato's cave confusing shadows for reality.
> If polled random 100 people from developer nations to name 10 non-US universities roughly 99 of them would stop at like 6.
I would suggest you stop here. What is being revealed about you isn't good at all. Either you are young and not ready to understand or confused, and maybe both. There are amazing universities all over the world, in both developed and developing nations. Yes, the US might have some of the most recognizable names in the world. And, in most cases, with good reason. Yet, that does not mean the world is a barren wasteland. In fact, some of the most prominent companies in the US are loaded with people who graduated from schools outside of the US, people who have driven innovation and wonderful things for decades. Don't take that approach. It is wrong and misinformed.
US education has problems that can be fixed with the right approach and incentives. This is not insurmountable, it simply requires recognizing the issues and acting in the best interest of future generations and the nation.
US education has problems that can be fixed with the right approach and incentives. This is not insurmountable, it simply requires recognizing the issues and acting in the best interest of future generations and the nation.
If you came here to discuss and said this to begin with - the conversation would have been a lot different. This is what I mentioned couple of times, there are problems. however, you said that US is one of the worst which is why you had to read a bunch of stuff ... not sure I have to tell you this but there is a very slight difference between US education has problems that can be fixed with the right approach and incentives vs. "US education system is one of the worst" :)
No, I absolutely hold to my assertion. It is one of the worst. Or, it was allowed to devolve into one of the worst.
The results we obtain do not align well with the money we spent per student. Not to mention the ideological crap we shove into their minds, particularly at the university level.
And the problem is that it isn't getting better.
Things need to change, and do so quickly. Like I said in one of my prior comments, these are issues that take a generation or more to yield results. If we don't fix this quickly, we are going to have very serious problems in the coming decades. And, the only way to solve these problems will be through the promotion of immigration of university graduates from other countries. There's nothing wrong with that other than the huge disservice we will do to our students.
The world is a competitive place. Nothing should stand in the way of our system of education reaching for and demanding excellence.
EDIT:
I have to add this.
One of my son's friends decided to go for a Masters in Mechanical Engineering. Since I was a mentor at our local high school robotics team, she asked me what I thought about one of the schools she was kind of set on attending. I took one look and begged her to not do this. Her Masters was going to cost her THREE HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS.
How? Why? This is insane!
Mechanical engineers graduate every day from excellent universities around the world at a cost between zero and, maybe, one tenth of what she was facing. And they are just as capable as anyone else.
Well, the sales people did a good job on her and she took that path. Years later she told me just how sorry she was not to take my advise.
How does an ME degree cost $300K? How is it possibly worth it? How did we allow the system to degenerate to such a level that it is legal to do this to our young?
No my friend. This is a disaster. This is really bad on many fronts. It needs to be fixed or we will pay the consequences in the long run.
I have heard this argument many times and happen to think it is a false argument.
Universities (in the US) are not what they used to be. They are not culturally open. They have become dangerous monoculture indoctrination centers. STEM degrees, due to their nature, are not impacted as hard as are others. People in other non-STEM paths are in full-on monoculture indoctrination programs, even if not explicitly stated.
What isn't fair is for people to attend university in the US, graduate with hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt and not end-up with at least two things: Marketable skills that are competitive with anyone from other countries and, well, culture.
It just so happens that I attended both high school and university abroad and in the US. My family moved about due to business when I was in school. I have perspective to offer from the UK, US and Argentina.
I can tell you, without a shadow of a doubt, that US education has been an unmitigated disaster for DECADES. The problem with this is that, even if changes were to be made today, it will also take decades for the results to surface.
I am an immigrant in the US. I graduated from high school with a far deeper and broader cultural foundation than I would say most college graduates in the US. This is no joke. And this is why, if I were to use a nasty generalization, Americans are regarded as dumb and ignorant outside of the US. Of course, this isn't absolutely fair, it's a stereotype, and stereotypes do not apply to the entire population. However, there are measurable elements of this. Our schools are broken, from the bottom up.
We have a country where people graduate from university actually believing that communism and socialism are good things. This sounds so fucking stupid to immigrants who have actually lived in these regimes that I cannot even begin to describe it. It is surreal to see how the US has allowed this to happen.
To go back to what you said: "Expecting hands on skills from a degree isn't fair"
No my friend, what isn't fair is to graduate with $100K to $300K in debt and have that degree be so dubious that you have to endure five technical interviews before someone considers hiring you. And, in addition to that, the jobs you could have had go to H1B's because companies can make a case that you are not adequate for the job.
We should not make our children pay for substandard education. That is not fair.
My solution is simple: Stop pretending that we are teaching real culture and fire all the ideological assholes from these universities. Nobody should be forced to pay one single cent for this crap.
Teaching should be a meritocracy. Our schools are filled with "teachers" and "professors" that are worse than YouTube tutorial authors. Why are we making our children pay for mediocrity and incompetence.
I remember one of my kids having a science teacher in middle school who actually taught his classes that the moon does not rotate about its axis. And that was not the only incredibly ignorant thing he taught. I went to war and tried to get him fired. He had no business teaching science at all. He was a Chiropractor who got his teaching credentials and they gave him the science spot because he had "Dr." in his name. Well, I could not get him hired. The union protected him. Jokes on me, he retired after 30 years on the job with full pension and healthcare benefits for life. Who knows how many kids he ruined through his "teachings".
Teachers should be paid very well and held to a very high standard.
In university STEM fields, teach STEM and only STEM. Graduate people with world class skills. Reduce the cost by eliminating that 25% of coursework that no employer cares about. If a student chooses to study non STEM subjects, sure, be my guest, they can pay for them and there are no loan guarantees for the universities (which will lower their cost). Critically, they should not be conditions for graduation.
We can pretend US colleges are about culture all we want. However, the evidence in the real world is that they do a shit job across the board and change is badly needed.