> Outside Developers like/want the CL customer base, their reputation and their page views and see them as a quick, easy path to success. However, you are not entitled to them.
As far as I can see, Padmapper is not using the Craigslist reputation or page views. The data Padmapper is aggregating is treated as public information by Craigslist's own policy. Given these facts, I don't see what he's doing that's wrong, specifically.
It's not public information. The listing data belongs to the original poster who entered into a contractual relationship with CL -- not with PadMapper. If anything the ads are covered by copyright, held by the person who wrote the specific ad. If the service is so great, then start calling the ad posters and offer them the chance to post on PadMapper. Otherwise, it's theft. We can moralize all we want but reproducing someone's ad without their permission is a violation of the poster's rights, even if some of us feel that it's in their best interest. The choice should belong to the person posting the ad.
As far as I can tell, it is public information. Craigslist has a claim on the listing and not the information in it.
> The listing data belongs to the original poster who entered into a contractual relationship with CL -- not with PadMapper.
If the data belongs to the original poster and not Craigslist, then the original poster can have a beef with Padmapper, and Craigslist has no claim.
> If anything the ads are covered by copyright, held by the person who wrote the specific ad.
In as far as Padmapper is using the data in the listing, and not the actual listing, I don't see any violation of copyright. Otherwise, one encyclopedia could sue another one for also publishing the same material facts in an article. If your logic held, there could only be one encyclopedia in the world.
> If the service is so great, then start calling the ad posters and offer them the chance to post on PadMapper. Otherwise, it's theft. We can moralize all we want but reproducing someone's ad without their permission is a violation of the poster's rights, even if some of us feel that it's in their best interest. The choice should belong to the person posting the ad.
I don't think you're taking all the implications into account. By this reasoning, Google bots should only put something in the Google Cache if the original poster gives specific permission.
I agree that reproducing someone's ad without their permission is wrong. However, reproducing the material facts of their ad is clearly not immoral or illegal.
Also, if the first person to aggregate public data effectively has a copyright to that data, there would be widespread and harmful implications.
>then the original poster can have a beef with Padmapper, and Craigslist has no claim.
So what you're saying is that, "The original poster can sue PadMapper, but at least CL isn't going to be a plaintiff."
Unfortunately, you don't know what you're talking about:
From the CL TOU: "You also expressly grant and assign to CL all rights and causes of action to prohibit and enforce against any unauthorized copying, performance, display, distribution, use or exploitation of, or creation of derivative works from, any content that you post (including but not limited to any unauthorized downloading, extraction, harvesting, collection or aggregation of content that you post)."
That clause just made CL the agent for the original poster and it expressly grants CL the right to prohibit unauthorized use. RTFM.
This whole situation is excessively asshole-ish. It seems like PadMapper is hell-bent on scraping CL data by any means (or rationalization) necessary. We can debate about CL running their business the way they do, but this argument is starting to look like some pseudo-intellectual freshman philosophy conversation. It's almost like debating Lyndon LaRouche supporters.
What PadMapper really needs to do is consult a lawyer and figure out how to work within the law rather than trying to be cute about skirting the CL TOU. Any investor would run far away from a company that seems so determined to do something without any professional legal advice instead replying upon some sophomoric interpretation of a contract and the law.
This comment: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4160061 outlines a strategy that could work that doesn't involve playing games and skirting Craigslist. It's also a way to actually build a business based on something besides just stealing other people's data. Of course it requires real work and doesn't appeal to someone that thinks code is the answer to every question.
Data posted to craigslist is subject to the CL Terms of Use. If the data comes from CL, it can't be used without CL's permission. There's no gray area.
if data.from_craigslist?
cant_use
else
use
We can moralize and cry all we want, but their Terms of Use are pretty damned clear and the law is pretty damned clear as well.
Returning to the Google example, it's irrelevant, "Google does it" is not a legal defense or even a moral defense, depending on ones opinion of Google..
They're using the Craigslist reputation and page views indirectly. The information is only on Craigslist because people placed it there, and what was their reason for choosing Craigslist in the first place? Reputation and page views.
By that same argument, Google News is using the reputation and page views of The New York Times and The Wall Street Journal. Google as a whole is using the reputation and page view of the entire web.
As far as I can see, Padmapper is not using the Craigslist reputation or page views. The data Padmapper is aggregating is treated as public information by Craigslist's own policy. Given these facts, I don't see what he's doing that's wrong, specifically.