Second stage reuse seems the far more challenging problem. Other companies should have reusable boosters soon but if significant amounts of Starship continue to ablate on the way down they could be faced with a disposable Starship competing with smaller and cheaper second stages that are well sized for typical payloads. We already knew boosters can be flown back to launch sites reliably with high accuracy. We don't know if it is possible to make rapidly reusable thermal protection systems that can operate on an orbital vehicle of Starship's size until it is demonstrated.
> Second stage reuse seems the far more challenging problem.
Sure, SpaceX has been doing first stage reuse for a long time now. But they have demonstrated landing the second stage successfully at sea twice now with the same sort of smoothness that they demonstrated once for the booster before they then caught the booster on the first real try.
A partial list of unbelievably hard things that SpaceX has so far made seem easy:
- building a rocket from scratch
- landing Falcon 9 boosters
- landing Falcon 9 boosters *reliably*
- 3x weekly launch cadence (Falcon)
- the bellyflop manoeuver
- mass manufacturing(!) a rocket engine
- catching the booster
- simulated landings of the ship
Catching the booster is really just like landing a Falcon 9 booster w/o legs, but clearly much harder.
Anyways, if they can do all those things then it's pretty clear that they can catch-land the ship.
There's still a huge list of crazy-difficult things that SpaceX say they want to do that are hard to believe are possible, except for the fact that SpaceX has already done so many unbelievably difficult things already.
They have a history of pursuing solvable problems and abandoning those that were not working out or had better alternatives. Parachute recovery of the booster was abandoned in favor of propulsive landings. Catching fairings was abandoned for water proofing. Proposed Falcon and Dragon variants were abandoned as was Dragon propulsive landing. They abandoned carbon fiber construction and multiple concepts for Starship/Heavy.
The tiles in combination with ablative materials and the insane robustness of a steel vehicle is sufficient to get Starship through re-entry and soft land in the ocean. We know ceramic thermal tiles worked on Shuttle and X37B and presumably will on Dreamchaser so while the success was an awesome achievement it wasn't unlikely given time to refine their methods.
SpaceX are limited by the properties of real materials, not their ambitions, and we still don't know if rapidly reusability is possible with ceramic tiles or if their fragility will require inspections and refurbishment. They can't do it with ablatives and there aren't many other options. I am optimistic but also realistic about the difficulties of what they are attempting. Sometimes risky projects run into brick walls and you don't know what is possible until you try.
If the ceramic tiles aren't working out, I think they could try transpiration cooling (previously planned for Starship) or a metallic heat shield (was planned for VentureStar). Or some combination. There seem to be quite a few options.
I would say they are there. Sure, they're having some burn through on the flaps, but they managed to hit their virtual landing spot anyways, and if they caught a slightly damaged ship they could study that damage better, repair it, and refurbish the ship.
But I imagine that by IFT6 they'll have nailed the flap burn through problem.
They can't have burn through like that and achieve the kind of rapid reuse Starship needs to be useful outside low to mid Earth orbit, to go outside of there it requires a large number of flights to refuel the one Starship that will go on to Moon/Mars. Without the ability to refuel for Moon or beyond trips Starship is trapped in LEO/MEO because it's hauling around so much extra mass for it's own reusability.
IMO a better use for it might be to ferry up large pieces of purpose built craft with less excess dry weight. A single reusable Starship launch can put the entire mass of the Apollo craft needed to make it from LEO to the Moon and back into LEO. Put a craft in two launches and dock it in orbit and you've got a huge capability to put a lot of mass onto the moon and still use the cheap cost to orbit Super Heavy gives.
They landed an earlier version of the second stage on the ground a few times as well. It's the atmospheric reentry from orbital velocity that currently necessitates the safety of a splashdown: they're not going to risk bringing a damaged and potentially uncontrollable vessel down over land, even if they could nail the landing with an undamaged ship.
I found Jeff’s Bezos interview with everyday astronaut really illuminating on this topic.
Supposedly they’re working on both a reusable and cost optimised non-reusable second stage at the same time. And they don’t really know yet which one will end up being cheaper.
You also see this kind of thinking with Rocket Labs neutron rocket. Where they focus on making the reusable booster do more, while making the second stage smaller, cheaper and simpler.
I think if it wasn’t for the rocket engine this wouldn’t be a question at all. The tank doesn’t have much value. It’s just a thin shell and probably a fraction of the cost of the fuel.
So I’m thinking, perhaps the optimal solution is something like this: the bottom part of the second stage with the engines separates, and a small engine and fuel tanks places the engines in a stable orbit. The tank itself is deorbited and burns up.
At some point later something like the Starship collects several second stage engines and deorbits them safely to be reused.
Or perhaps just the engines can be immediately deorbited with an inflatable heat shield and parachutes.
Didn’t they look at all kinds of ideas earlier like squirting some propellant or water out over the skin on the way down, and wasn’t steel chosen for its thermal robustness? Did they get into the problem and realize it’s a lot harder and abandon those things for tiles?
Maybe they will have to sacrifice more payload mass for active or passive shielding or more fuel for powered deceleration. That would yield a less impressive lifter but with full reusability.
Interestingly, the inside surface of a rocket nozzle is covered with tiny holes. Fuel is circulated in a jacket around the nozzle both to pre-heat the fuel and to cool the nozzle. Additional cooling of the nozzle comes from fuel leaking into the combustion chamber through those holes, carrying away the heat so it doesn't melt the nozzle. It's called boundary layer cooling.
It was one of the technological breakthroughs of von Braun's team with the V2.
They already plan refueling infrastructure in orbit. That would include stuff to "squirt" on the way down if necessary. If they can use one extra launch to reuse 5-10 starships that might be interesting. Noone knows yet if it's actually needed.
Yeah for rapid reusability tiles aren’t going to work, too fragile. Iirc it was with a lot of reluctance they went with tiles and will have to make breakthroughs on the heat shielding to get where they want to be.
> Other companies should have reusable boosters soon
You're way too optimistic. Starship will deliver commercial payloads, with SpaceX phasing out Falcon 9 outside of ISS launches, before anyone has a reusable Falcon 9 equivalent.
It pains me to say this, but SpaceX is in a class all its own.
New Glenn finally has flight hardware undergoing pre-flight testing. I think they're pretty likely to manage to fly in early/mid 2025, and they do aim to recover the booster in their first try.
SpaceX couldn’t manage the first Falcon 9 landing until 2015. The first Falcon 9 reuse wasn’t until 2018, so 3 years to achieve reusability. The Chinese prototype hasn’t yet succeeded at sub-orbital landing. I wouldn’t be surprise if it’d take them longer than 3 years to have a reusable rocket. Starship would have been routine at that time.
Blue Origin plans to launch New Glenn in a month, with landing planned. They are a wild card.
I’m not saying they stole the plans through industrial espionage, I’m just wiggling my eyebrows suggestively while glancing in the direction of the suspiciously similar looking booster.
I promise you the fancy technology is in the electronics, software, and implementation, and not the fact that the cylinder with legs looks like another cylinder with legs
Chinese startups have historically been the only ones to be able to move as fast as Musk. One very underrated ability of Tesla is they can develop new products in 2-3 years from conception to market. The only other car companies to do it at scale is BYD, Nio and Xpeng. The company he is talking about is probably LandSpace. They got from conception to hop test in what seems to be 5, maybe 4 years. SpaceX took 7.
I think China has about 5 companies working on reusable launch and it is part of a national government strategy. People can argue about the timeline but it is inevitable.
I think it pains some of us to say it because of the person Musk has turned out to be, which is the opposite direction I think many of us were hoping his character development would take him.
Absolutely false.
Trump got 74M votes in last election in 2020. US population was 330 millions.
Today US population is ~340M.
I seriously doubt that more than 170M people support a convicted felon for president.
I bet that he will get less than 170M votes in less than a month.
Do you want to take the other side of the bet to back up your provably wrong assertion?
Trump may well win this election. But there’s no scenario under which he’s going to also win the popular vote while doing it, at least none that I’ve heard of. If you have credible information that says otherwise I would be interested in reading it.
Someday in a land far away people would be mature enough to spot complexity instead of judging people as purely "right" or "wrong". I think the best way to explain Elon is... he is a complicated individual and has some really good parts and some really not so good parts. And you know what, that is just fine.
This manufactured, polarized "us vs them" thing on the internet is toxic corrosive goop. People are complex and that is fine.
Using ableist language on Hacker News, however, is alright? I dislike Elon too, but this comment feels a little out of place and date, especially for the point it's trying to make
I think that is only part of it. Musk gave an interview where he talked about how the woke medical establishment trans'd one of his kids. They falsely told him to do the transition or his child's death was a near certainty. European countries are now restricting this "treatment" for children. The US has been slow to follow. There is a lot of money and political pressure from the left to keep the medical intervention industry alive.
Are you aware of what you're doing: you're removing agency from that person who transitioned. They're abundantly public about how their transition was appreciated and needed. Do you ultimately care more about the feelings of your own dad over yours?
It was more than a slight. Biden pointedly ignored Tesla when conducting an EV summit and handing out subsidies. Then there was the FCC fiasco where the FCC snubbed Starlink.
> Then there was the FCC fiasco where the FCC snubbed Starlink.
You mean that time that the FCC removed Starlink from the broadband problem when they couldn't deliver the speeds that they had committed to, as defined very explicitly in the program?
Musk has never, no matter what he claims, ever a progressive democrat. He would be at best, someone who believed in the liberalization of certain drug policies. His economic beliefs have always been max pro business (aka, hands off, anti labor). He solidly fits under libertarian like the rest of the tech billionaires. Republicans, if it weren't partly driven by Christian fundamentalists, would be libertarian. The conservative GOP party of the 70's hasn't existed in decades.
A few things that I (as someone who doesn't follow Twitter) have heard about from anecdotes and from the news about why people dislike him:
- He called some guy who worked for him a pedo for no reason, which he was sued over
- Took over Twitter and promoted right wing tweets to everybody, unbanned far right accounts and sued critics who said he did so
- Started promoting far right ideas, like when he retweeted "Interesting" to some tweet of a 4chan post saying that high-status, high-testosterone males are the only ones who can think freely and should be the only ones who can vote
- Took the side of the right-wing rioters who attacked mosques in the UK, saying civil war is inevitable
- Just seems to insult companies for little reason - advertisers who leave him, and Apple
There has been kind of a slow back and forth. Some people who liked him were miffed about the pedo thing, but they didn't hate him. But he has just kept doing things that some people hate.
> Took the side of the right-wing rioters who attacked mosques in the UK, saying civil war is inevitable
Leave out the part where the riots were started because someone with an immigrant background killed a bunch of kids at a Taylor Swift concert and police were withholding the identity. Along with your other 'anecdotes', can you make your political position any more transparent?
I see I accidentally came off implying that I'm disaffected and take no sides - most of the time, right wing politics seems abhorrent to me. Those are the main things I remember because left-wing spaces tend to hate him, and I dislike him because of those things, but no more than CEOs of companies like Nestle, which has engaged in things like slavery and child trafficking.
> because someone with an immigrant background killed a bunch of kids at a Taylor Swift concert and police were withholding the identity.
It might be somewhat justified if they burnt the house down of the murderer, or those who assisted him. They didn't - they burnt down houses, shops, and mosques, because they wrongly assumed the guy was Muslim and decided that was just cause to target any Muslim. His identity was hidden because he was a minor at the time of the attack.
No it isn't. It might be soon in some early way: "the first launch is expected to take place no earlier than November 2024", "The booster for the flight is named So You’re Telling Me There’s a Chance, alluding to the difficulty of landing a reusable booster on the first attempt." -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Glenn