> No. You are still ignoring that the mathematics of the Greeks and the mathematics of the Mesopotamians were radically different.
This doesn't matter. We're talking about 0. Whether mathematics are conceptualized as a tool or an academic discipline in its own rite wasn't the thrust of the article. It wasn't even part of your original post.
> Did you even read my original post?
It might surprise you, but yes -- yes, I did!
> My position is that a linear history of the concept of 0, which spreads from India to Mesopotamia to Greece is nonsense. That the Mesopotamians did some mathematics long before the Greeks did is irrelevant to my argument. It totally does not matter. What makes it even more ridiculous is that my OP obviously assumes that the Mesopotamians had mathematics before the Greeks, so pointing it out as some "gotcha" is just really stupid.
This is a better statement of your position than you originally posted, when you said "I am very unconvinced by this "history of zero". Definitely the Greek geometers were aware of that concept, they just expressed it geometrically not numerically." Here's why I think your initial statement is a weak argument for your refutation of a linear history of the concept of zero: Babylonian mathematics temporally happened first and the general opinion (when I was in school, at least) was that Babylonian mathematics likely influenced Greek mathematics. That's why I think this is a weak argument to argue against the linear history concept of 0.
> It genuinely makes me mad to have this low quality discussion, where someone barges in and gives you a trivial "gotcha" as if I wasn't completely aware of that fact. And when you try to point out why the person didn't understand what you were saying you are getting another person debating the stupid gotcha, as if it even mattered.
I'm sorry you're mad but I mostly disagree on your assessment of the quality of the discussion. Your top-level comment on the article about Mesopotamia creating nought was essentially that Greek geometers knew about it and that tying concepts and geographical locations seems odd.
I don't disagree with your second point, but we may be in the minority: lots of people are very interested in knowing who had what ideas first and where. Your first point doesn't stand well alone without the further elaboration you've made through the rest of this discussion. With the elaborations you've made since the rest of this thread might not have happened.
I wanted to give a seriously reply, but clearly there is no point.
I still don't get why you and the other guy think pointing out that "Mesopotamians did it first" is relevant. Even if they did and even if the Greeks were extremely influenced by them, their concept of a geometrical zero was still radically different to the Mesopotamians notion, so it is totally irrelevant who was first. The only counter argument could be that they had the same notion, which the Greeks adopted from the Mesopotamians as a complete package.
I don't think this is really complicated. If their understanding was radically different, then the concept couldn't have just "moved over", so disprove my thesis he discussion on "who was first", is obviously irrelevant.
> With the elaborations you've made since the rest of this thread might not have happened.
Well, the genuine curiosity and willingness to discuss the subject embodied in a single sentence dismissing my post because of an obviously true statement made me very glad to elaborate and discuss further.
I'm going to step back to a meta level and make a couple points:
- Several times in the context of this discussion you've made negative assumptions about someone or their motives replying to you (e.g. "I wanted to give a seriously reply, but clearly there is no point" and "What a stunning revelation, genuinely brilliant insight from you"); I don't think this fosters good discussion (and I also don't think it's particularly good for mental health)
- You seem particularly aggrieved by someone not automatically assuming you know something. Yes, we all understand now that you know the Mesopotamians predated the Greeks with regard to the mathematical notions we're discussing here. But you know what? There's nothing wrong with NOT knowing. And some people reading the discussion might not have known.
Now back to the main topic at hand.
> Even if they did and even if the Greeks were extremely influenced by them, their concept of a geometrical zero was still radically different to the Mesopotamians notion, so it is totally irrelevant who was first
Now I finally feel as though I understand the main thrust of your argument. Let me restate your hypothesis to see if I've got it: even though the Babylonians had the concept of zero, it was sufficiently lacking compared to the Greek concept as to be incomparable; the Greeks fundamentally independently invented the concept of a zero more mathematically powerful than the Babylonians rather than took the existing Babylonian concept of nought and developed it further. Is that right?
This doesn't matter. We're talking about 0. Whether mathematics are conceptualized as a tool or an academic discipline in its own rite wasn't the thrust of the article. It wasn't even part of your original post.
> Did you even read my original post?
It might surprise you, but yes -- yes, I did!
> My position is that a linear history of the concept of 0, which spreads from India to Mesopotamia to Greece is nonsense. That the Mesopotamians did some mathematics long before the Greeks did is irrelevant to my argument. It totally does not matter. What makes it even more ridiculous is that my OP obviously assumes that the Mesopotamians had mathematics before the Greeks, so pointing it out as some "gotcha" is just really stupid.
This is a better statement of your position than you originally posted, when you said "I am very unconvinced by this "history of zero". Definitely the Greek geometers were aware of that concept, they just expressed it geometrically not numerically." Here's why I think your initial statement is a weak argument for your refutation of a linear history of the concept of zero: Babylonian mathematics temporally happened first and the general opinion (when I was in school, at least) was that Babylonian mathematics likely influenced Greek mathematics. That's why I think this is a weak argument to argue against the linear history concept of 0.
> It genuinely makes me mad to have this low quality discussion, where someone barges in and gives you a trivial "gotcha" as if I wasn't completely aware of that fact. And when you try to point out why the person didn't understand what you were saying you are getting another person debating the stupid gotcha, as if it even mattered.
I'm sorry you're mad but I mostly disagree on your assessment of the quality of the discussion. Your top-level comment on the article about Mesopotamia creating nought was essentially that Greek geometers knew about it and that tying concepts and geographical locations seems odd.
I don't disagree with your second point, but we may be in the minority: lots of people are very interested in knowing who had what ideas first and where. Your first point doesn't stand well alone without the further elaboration you've made through the rest of this discussion. With the elaborations you've made since the rest of this thread might not have happened.