> And the last time you use Java was....5 years ago?
> I know Rails and Django and I used cherrypy, cheetah, and sqlalchemy as well, and Java is on par with both modern frameworks if you know to choose the right frameworks.
What are these frameworks in Java you talk about which are as expressive as Django and Rails? Less verbose that it was before isn't the same as as expressive as Rails/Django.
> In fact, I do not have to deploy multiple processes one for Rails and one for sinatra or node.js. Just some app server or web container and I am ready to go.
Rails/Django deployment isn't that hard. If you are talking about a large app, deployment is a very small consideration compared to other aspects.
As far as multiple processes go, more often than not, large apps are run as collection of co-operating services. That is by choice, irrespective of whether it's implemented in Java or Python. Which one of the examples you listed you think runs as some app server and container?
> ... And you are asking me to check out a "toy benchmark"?
> I care more for the overall solutions from deployment, tools, etc. End to end baby...
All benchmarks are toys. If you want "end to end", the only way is to do it is to implement the same app in Python and Java, and then compare them. Doing that would be batshit insane(sure, we are going to do too versions of pinterest to compare whether we write it in Java or Python), nobody does that, nobody should do that.
As far as benchmark goes, I only claimed that out of box code in Java performs like dogshit, and I am to jump hoops, I would rather jump hoops in Python, Ruby, Clojure et al.
Expressive lies in the language not in the framework, I think you have a different mindset on that one but I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve.
Spring MVC is on par with Rails VC (let's leave ActiveRecord for another time) or Django TV minus Django ORM.
Testing? Spring has a really good testing library that plays with both straight up Java EE components (Servlet, Portlet, etc). Functional, Integration, Unit-Test, name your game.
Migration? Flyway works nicely and I don't have to spend days to set it up, just less than an hour for multi-year project. Minuscule in terms of effort. It just works.
I'll give you that ActiveRecord is nicer than JPA 2 (but not by a lot). The rest are... indifferent, same stuff, same type, same ol' same ol'.
JAX-RS can spits both XML and JSON easily with no code changes. I don't have to use Sinatra (or node.js) for web-api and deploy it separately from Rails: just deploy JAX-RS project as a separate WAR to the AppServer and I'm done. Done.
I don't need to spin up a different process, write a script to do X,Y,Z, maintain another infrastructure, etc etc.
Regarding your mark about benchmark: then don't start flashing numbers and stuffs if they are toys. If OOB Java is like dog stuff then Python, Ruby are like snail or turtle.
Wait, what am I doing trolling like redditors or slashdotters over mindless debate.
sigh technology has never been the problem, the people are sigh always holds true.
> Expressive lies in the language not in the framework,
For me, expressiveness is the sum of language expressiveness, framework, culture and api design.
For example, see this crime against humanity
<%@ taglib uri="http://java.sun.com/jsp/jstl/core" prefix="c" %>
<%@ taglib uri="http://java.sun.com/jsp/jstl/functions" prefix="fn" %>
<c:choose>
<c:when test="${emails.unread != null && fn:size(emails.unread)}">
You have ${fn:size(emails.unread)} unread email(s)!
</c:when>
<c:otherwise>
You have no unread emails!
</c:otherwise>
</c:choose>
Now, the designers could have very well implemented:
You have ${emails.unread ?: 'no'} ${emails.unread?.pluralize('email')} !
> I think you have a different mindset on that one but I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve.
I am not trying to achieve anything, and it's not just a matter of mindset. See my example above. Expressiveness isn't just something which is confined to the language. Horrendous apis and frameworks are a bane for any language.
> Migration? Flyway works nicely and I don't have to spend days to set it up, just less than an hour for multi-year project.
I don't follow your remark that you don't have to spend days to set it up. Which migration lib takes days to set up? I am not contesting there isn't something bad out there(see my JSP example above), but since we are talking Rails/Django, I don't see how it is relevant here.
> JAX-RS can spits both XML and JSON easily with no code changes. I don't have to use Sinatra (or node.js) for web-api and deploy it separately from Rails:
Umm what? Rails needs Sinatra to produce JSON?
def foo
respond_to do |format|
format.html { }
format.json { }
format.xml { }
end
end
> Wait, what am I doing trolling like redditors or slashdotters over mindless debate.
> sigh technology has never been the problem, the people are sigh always holds true.
You said frameworks don't decide expressiveness. I was quoting an example that they do. Whether you use jsp or not is tangential. Java isn't anywhere near python or ruby in terms of expressiveness, neither are the frameworks.
EDIT: Like another commenter pointed out, if you can get a 55k LSoC Java project down to 8k Python project, that says something about expressiveness.
What are these frameworks in Java you talk about which are as expressive as Django and Rails? Less verbose that it was before isn't the same as as expressive as Rails/Django.
> In fact, I do not have to deploy multiple processes one for Rails and one for sinatra or node.js. Just some app server or web container and I am ready to go.
Rails/Django deployment isn't that hard. If you are talking about a large app, deployment is a very small consideration compared to other aspects.
As far as multiple processes go, more often than not, large apps are run as collection of co-operating services. That is by choice, irrespective of whether it's implemented in Java or Python. Which one of the examples you listed you think runs as some app server and container?
> ... And you are asking me to check out a "toy benchmark"? > I care more for the overall solutions from deployment, tools, etc. End to end baby...
All benchmarks are toys. If you want "end to end", the only way is to do it is to implement the same app in Python and Java, and then compare them. Doing that would be batshit insane(sure, we are going to do too versions of pinterest to compare whether we write it in Java or Python), nobody does that, nobody should do that.
As far as benchmark goes, I only claimed that out of box code in Java performs like dogshit, and I am to jump hoops, I would rather jump hoops in Python, Ruby, Clojure et al.