Just to provide some counterpoint to the echo chamber here - as a Dad of a six year old who played with legos as a kid and again now, I can affirm - Legos and the sets they put out now are way cooler now than when I was a kid!
You might worry that the less general purpose, specialized pieces might stunt creativity, but guess what!? The 6 year old has no problem taking them completely apart and building something off script.
It's the olds who worry about keeping them all together and not losing the pieces so they can still make the thing on the front of the box. The kids don't care and will happily take it all apart and build things we never would have thought of.
It's definitely variable, some children will not go off-script, others barely want to stay on script long enough to do the box-image build.
Certainly in our house I (as dad) am more relaxed about playing with the stuff than building "the" model; that's fun too but you might as well use the Kragle if you're not going to mod it or tear it down and build something else...
The new sets are more complex and detailed, but god do I hate the franchised sets. Nothing kills kids creativity more than that. It's not a pirate ship, it is Jack Sparrow's pirate ship. It's not a spaceship, it's Luke Skywalker's spaceship!
Additionally, the quality of parts has seriously decreased since the 80s and 90s.
There's no single right "amount" of structure to provide to inspire creativity. Different works of art, different moods, different people, different days, will all "want" different starting points. Sometimes you want to experiment with basic geometry and it's useful to start from a bucket of raw parts. Sometimes you want to dig into stories and characters and it's useful to start with something that already exists. And because you can always remove structure from a situation - Legos can always be broken down into the bucket of raw parts! - more highly structured sets strictly expand the available range by pushing out the high end.
Even more than that, kids are learning how to be creative, and having some structure to start from helps a huge amount for a beginner. If you hand a blank piece of paper to someone who's never written anybody and tell them to be creative they'll never even be able to start. If you give them something to start from they'll have a much easier time. Even as expertise builds and you pull back on the guidance it's still incredibly useful to have new material injected from outside your own bubble of experience. Concretely, when you're just getting started it's a hell of a lot easier to learn that you can have a different person win a lightsaber fight than it is to write all your own characters from whole cloth, and when you're trying to learn how people work it's absolutely necessary to examine characters and stories that you didn't make up and that don't just confirm your own preconceptions and biases.
If I wanted to summarize my opinions, I think that playing with licensed-IP Lego sets is actually a critical step in the development of creativity because it lets you get started on more complicated topics earlier, makes you less afraid to adapt existing works, and provides inspiration and outside influence to break filter bubbles. I would compare it in many ways to writing fanfiction, and in a very literal sense it absolutely is.
> Nothing kills kids creativity more than that. It's not a pirate ship, it is Jack Sparrow's pirate ship. It's not a spaceship, it's Luke Skywalker's spaceship!
Why do you think so? I had a Hogwarts Express set and most of the time I didn't pretend for it to be the Hogwarts Express when playing.
I based that on empirical observation of my kids' friends. They don't make up stories, they just replay the star wars or Harry Potter movies. So I don't know, a dozen kids or so. I haven't done a nation wide study yet.
“The new sets are more complex and detailed, but god do I hate the franchised sets. Nothing kills kids creativity more than that.”
I haven’t noticed this with my son, fortunately. What I have noticed is that franchised characters immediately detach from their property when they enter his LEGO world. Lately I think Chewbacca has been dating an elderly woman, and every time Luke Skywalker talks about the rebellion his hair falls off. We have a Porg that runs a food delivery service with a Goomba and Harry Potter. I played in a similar way when I was a kid. I think in many cases the characters can be jumping off points, but a lot of kids take plenty of liberties from there.
I don't know, they have a service online to order replacements for lost or broken pieces for free. I use it 2 or 3 times a year, they never question it and just ship the pieces.
Having two teenage boys I cannot confirm this. They play with other stuff, but Lego is for building once and putting it on a shelf, where it will collect thick layers of dust. My sons never really played with Lego, which I found a bit disappointing.
I bought two of those last Christmas, one for me, the other for the son of a co-worker --- mine is currently out on loan to the parent to practice with so as to be able to keep up with the child (and if need be, as a source of parts if any are missing).
You're free to take them apart and start making stuff with them. I'm pretty sure your kids would join in, mine certainly did. Sets should not be seen as holy and giving them a prominent display spot may be the wrong thing to do. For a week, sure, after that it's parts :)
Oh no my friend, this is not allowed - "Dad, don't touch it; why did you add that piece; you're ruining it" "but you're not using it, it was just sitting on the shelf...".
There's definitely a strong divergence. In part, for us I think it's driven by poverty, they want "the nice thing" to look at (all our own models are necessarily colour-mismatched). But I know others who have rooms full of prestige sets that are 'not to be touched'!
Many on HN will be tinkerers who will take anything apart, that probably makes a difference too.
I always cry on the inside when I see those beautifully designed, symmetrical, detailed sets taken apart and tossed together to form the next ninja castle or whatever, but after all Lego is to be taken apart and my 6-8-9 year olds have no remorse in doing so.
Lego is still quite amazing but not quite as cool as it used to be. I suppose the various boxes were always meant to be such that you could build that one really cool building/vehicle/etc. with it. Sometimes with a predesigned variation, too.
But today it seems that the purpose of most boxes is to do only that - and then, what, put the object into a display case? Or, more likely, play with it for a while and then forget about it.
What I mean is that even though today's lego boxes let you build way more realistic and designy products, there are so many special pieces that it does not spark your own creative fantasy (in my opinion) but limits it. To me, as a child, the appeal was always that there was quite a limited set of brick types - and the creativity lay in combining them in new ways.
In comparison, the number and types of different pieces seems to have doubled or tripled today. By implication that means that you end with a few instances of many different types of pieces while before, you'd have many instances of a few types of pieces. I'd argue that the latter lends itself much better to creating new things born out of your own creativity.
I've seen this sentiment time and time again, but careful examination of the actual pieces and sets, excluding the obviously marketed to adults sets shows them just as adjustable and combinable as I remember them being when given to kids.
My ability to see what is latent and possible in the pile has decreased, but my kids have what seems to me to be quite the same amount of fun I did when I ways young.
This depends on your age. I think you were playing with Lego in the 1980s or 1990s when there was theming like pirates and what not. I had Lego in the 1970s. We really just had sets with square/rectangular blocks of various sizes and a few special parts like windows and doors. We didn't even have minifigs. But I get why Lego changed -- you only need to sell one or two generic sets and the kid has enough legos for life. If you add theming then suddenly there's space lego, pirate lego, etc. and then the kid wants a new set every Christmas and birthday.
>> We really just had sets with square/rectangular blocks of various sizes and a few special parts like windows and doors
Same here. For me, they were stored in the same large bag as the Lincoln Logs, Tinkertoys, Hot Wheels, and green plastic army men.
Which allowed you to realistically portray such common situations as "infantryman, flamethrower, and radio man hide behind giant plastic multi-colored wall while preparing to assault Porsche 917 garaged in a log cabin".
And it is not only the variety of pieces, but also that the number of colors has exploded. Lego is becoming more like Playmobil, with the advantage that you have extra fun putting your sets together, and with the disadvantage that they will disintegrate and be hard to put together again.
I find myself "helping" my kids keep their built sets whole after playing with them, as once the sets become pieces it is too tedious/frustrating for the kids to find all the pieces to put them back together again amongst the pile. Also because the manuals are very much step by step, it is very clear what piece you need for the next 1 step, but not what you need for the next 10 steps. So searching ahead is not so easy for the kids.
But regardless of all my opinions, the kids are huge fans of lego. I have also noticed that as the sets are much larger, it is quite nice to buy a set second hand, build it once and then sell it again. I found out there are even people renting out the top sets for like 10€/week. So these sets are more like puzzles to me, where the joy is in building them. Such a contrast with when I was a kid; I never kept my sets built, I was always building my own designs.
Recently my kids got something called plusplus. A 3d building block where all blocks are identical (shaped like ++) and in limited colors. They were having fun building their own designs from the start. Limitations really spark creativity
> there are so many special pieces that it does not spark your own creative fantasy (in my opinion) but limits it.
Those pieces aren't anywhere near as limiting as you think. The Saturn V model uses the 64951 tub/barrel pieces as thruster nozzles. The LEM uses the 64644 telescope/spyglass piece for the legs. That's the immediately visible bits in the model I have handy, I remember seeing a bunch more of those on my friend's Millennium Falcon, and just in general.
My son gets the sets, builds the one thing, then starts heavily modifying it. Eventually pieces from other sets will be incorporated into this set and it into other sets and eventually the Death Star has become a castle. So, it’s more of a mindset thing than a LEGO thing. If you insist that the one thing is all the set can become, that is fine, but it can also become many other things if you let it go.
That trend has been going on a decades. When I was a kid in the late 80s, I always grabbed the annual Lego catalog from the local toy store. Every year, there were more and more big colorful special-purpose parts that were required to build that one cool object. But there were never enough of them in the boxes to really use them in my own designs.
I've stumbled over Rebrickable recently where you can enter a LEGO set number and get alternative models (MOCs) and build instructions for them (among other usages). For my children there is lots of fun in taking apart the car again and building a plane from the same parts. This also has the benefit of keeping the sets together (for now), so the original instructions can still be used without having to hunt for two 1x1 tile rounded in dark blueish gray in one of the two big boxes of parts.
It varies by set/model. Some of them are built and then played with, some are built, razed, built differently, demolished again. Some are built and then put on display. The pieces, even the specialized ones, are rarely the problem in building something completely different from what I can observe. They are, however, a problem when you have to find them again if you want to build the original model.
I'll make a weird analogy, i feel the same about modern games. The old limitations gave a different feel to the incredibly realistic rendering of today. Even when styled.. it's not the same.
I like the groove of simple blockiness and a few dedicated parts.
I recall as a kid a sense of scarcity with my lego, even though I had quite a bit because it was one of the few reliable presents for me.
We couldn't afford the expensive sets, so I was always doing a little bit of the calculus about what interesting parts I could see on the box, whether they were in a color that I favored (if you want to build something mono- or dichromatic you have to have a lot of pieces in one or two colors), the state of disrepair of my minifigs (the helmet chinstraps back then were always breaking) etc.
It wasn't the first choice usually, but often once I'd narrowed it down to a couple in my price range, it mattered.
As an adult I happened upon a lego expo a couple times in a community center, and one that stuck out to me relates to your story. For a while there were sets with very long, spindly, curved pieces that always annoyed me, but the centerpiece of this exposition was a suspension bridge of Lego about ten feet long. The trusses that held the road bed were made almost entirely by chaining together those curved, spindly bits. God knows where he got that many of them and all the same color. And how much that cost.
Nah dude, you are plain wrong. The truth is that Lego has so much variety, they make an experience for everyone.
They have sets with multiple builds and more flexibility. They’ve got stuff for adults who want a pretty object in their house that they built. They have Lego Friends for the girly girls. They have every licensed property imaginable for people who are into that. They have Minecraft which has more build flexibility of being voxel themed in the first place. They sell classic bins with assorted parts. They have Duplo for toddlers. They have train sets for train people. They have roller coasters and “fast” sets. They have a robot/programming product. They have construction and technic. They have car sets for people who like model cars. They have city and creator sets for people who like to build realistic model towns and worlds. They have space and aviation stuff. They have products created by fans that are voted on by their fans. They have a custom model set builder.
They literally make everything. You can get whatever experience you want, including all the old experiences.
You are right, there is a fine balance between just enough variety to be able to achieve your vision without leaving Minecraft-style jagged edges and too much variety and specialisation so that you cannot build anything novel at all. But we also live in a time where you can easily buy boxloads of generic Lego bricks second-hand (some of it probably 20 or more years old) for almost nothing at yard sales or on a local buy-and-sell website. Lego bricks are good for 2 or 3 generations of children.
Ok, so maybe LEGO is becoming more like Apple. Apple is going against general purpose computing, and LEGO is now going against general purpose construction.
I'm still mad that they discontinued Mindstorms. My school isn't able to replace their components if they break and I cannot get additional motors for my projects any more.
Does anyone know how good their "LEGO® Education SPIKE™" stuff is? Is it as open as the NXT-bricks? Are these somewhat compatible? Linux IDE available?
I wish someone would offer a replacement for those who have a 3D-printer, rp2040 and some soldering experience. I'd help the school to re-stock their supply.
Edit: 35 € for a 2 A USB power supply is definitely Apple-ish. And those peripheral connectors look like they're … unique. Mindstorms just had standard RJ-something plugs.
Spike is pretty good and seems just as open as NXT. You can even open a shell directly on the MCU brick in Python. Spike does use new connectors, but it's the same one they started using for all of the Powered Up sets. Plus there's lots of people who've figured out how to add arduinos, Pi's, etc.
With a bit of fiddling and some 3D printed parts you're off to the races, controls two motors and four servos and has blinkenlights. You can use the board with the Micro:BIT but you can also use it with some fiddling with an arduino (renesas will probably work best) or a Raspberry Pi 2040. It also has a whole slew of 'Grove' connectors if you want to wire up more sensors and actuators and it exports the bus.
I've added links to the 3D printed parts and some links to the originals on thingiverse, it took some modifications to get it all to fit nicely but it really works well. And those boards are pretty cheap.
I like lego, but the magic that made them what they are is waning. The capitalized big on partnerships with entertainment brands, but that's feeling played out. When parents pick up gifts for birthday parties they'll get lego star wars or lego ninjago gifts because the birthday boy is into star wars or ninjago, lego is secondary.
Lego is still great, but their lack of emphasis on the creativity that has been the promise of lego for decades---think this ad[0]---has been making them less great each year.
Interesting to read this now. Lego was in a very good position during that time. But in the last years they declined in quality (bad prints, a lot of stickers on AFOL sets), increased the prices and the lack in building fun of the sets. Lots of catering to grown-ups and weird choices in the kids section like the city road elements.
The mixed reality sets were not well received. Why give a kid something to do with Lego bricks and then pull them in front of a smartphone again?
This is mainly it - though I do remember as a kid having "The Collection" was always important - your little pile of "special bricks" like headlight bricks, anything printed, etc, that were "rare" and you'd want.
Having fewer bricks could be considered a feature. There are definitely situations in which more constraints can increase creativity and happiness. For a long time, I preferred Dragon Quest Builders 1 (a Minecraft-style game) over its sequel for this reason. It's not unreasonable for people to be overwhelmed or put off by the tremendous variety of Lego available today.
There are a few “Apple of X industry” companies out there, I think it’s pretty interesting that you can generalize the things that make them what they are.
Disney is the Apple of movies.
Nintendo is the Apple of video games.
They are usually the types of companies that tightly control almost all of their product, are at a premium price point, and have an “elevated” sort of brand recognition.
For example Nintendo is intent on tightly controlling their product experience. They use boring tech in creative ways and charge a premium for their content.
Disney is the same, they are the only theme parks with imagineers that custom make all the rides and experiences in their parks, they make their own software for the most part, and tightly control how their characters are used, etc etc
The biggest takeaway is that the companies have an intense focus on the quality of their product and that makes them the longest lasting and most elevated brands.
LEGO belongs in this group because they have a similar focus on quality I think. At least WRT their toys. I don’t care much for their theme parks..
Its interesting, you find quality with these brands.
I'm certain these brands advertise they have quality, but I think they fall far short of the competition constantly. Nintendo? Disney? Apple? When I think of their actual quality compared to the best in the business you are talking B- quality.
Sure you never get a C or a D like when I get a random Android phone for $100, but you are never going to get a Baulders Gate 3 from Nintendo.
Although now that you mention it, all of these brands have total fanatics that border on cult worship. I wonder if this is natural, or some unethical psychology their marketing departments use.
I don't agree that it's just marketing. I'm not saying their products are perfect, they certainly have flaws. But the maniacal focus on quality is palpable in their products.
Play a Nintendo game start to finish, you will be very hard pressed to find ANY bugs or glitches. Like you have to hunt really hard to try to find them, they are usually an extremely polished experience. The same cannot be said for most other developers. I LOVE BG3, but it's certainly not as bug-free as a Nintendo game. Same with their hardware + system software, it never crashes, and has a very controlled "walled garden" feel.
There's a reason people use the term "Disney-quality animation". Because it's extremely polished and looks miles better than the competition. Watch the Family Guy episode where the drew part of the episode in Disney style and you can see the difference in action.
> Because it's extremely polished and looks miles better than the competition.
Disney's animation style is sterile and formulaic. It's to the point of uncanny valley and overacting.
There's something to be said about how animation with tiny imperfections and errors improves the experience. Your brain is more ready to accept that it's seeing something fake rather than something failing to be real.
> you will be very hard pressed to find ANY bugs or glitches. Like you have to hunt really hard to try to find them, they are usually an extremely polished experience.
Has this ever been true? Or maybe its true, but the games are so mediocre that no one cares that 'Pong doesnt have any bugs'.
Huh? They are among the best. Disney is among Big 5 major movie studios. Lego is top 4 toy companies, largest by revenue among them. Apple is top-3 company in the world by market cap.
Quality is very subjective, but the fact that you personally prefer Baulders Gate to Mario just shows that Nintendo plays it in a different niche, not that latter is somehow objectively worse / has less quality than the former.
In my opinion, what sums up all these companies are the things they don’t do:
- they don’t focus on “power users” or similar niche segments, unless these segments gain enough popularity
- they don’t cater to cheaper segments of mass market
- they don’t build their business models around copying competitors
- they don’t delegate or outsource critical pieces of their value chain
This is what leads to unique and pricey products that sometimes polarize general public. (Although personally I’d narrow Disney down to only Pixar in OPs list, due to Disney’s poor fit with #3 and #4).
And these companies pump the marketing and psychology tricks to an 11/10.
We could use objective quality metrics, but that would embarrass these groups. Why is it all of these groups are not the objectively the Top? They are B- when you use objective metrics.
While I have nostalgia and can talk about how I used to make amazing designs with fewer specialized bricks, the truth is modern Legos can do more and cost less (adjusted for inflation). My 12year old has built things that I couldn't do until I was a junior in college. We're just grumpy because we are old.
I don't love how Lego makes all of these specialty sets for grownups, but.. I've bought some and enjoy it. Playing with Lego as an adult was weird in the 80s. Now there's whole clubs for it. I think it's a positive development.
And finally, they are not the Apple. Nothing in Lego is locked down. I can 3d print my own bricks. Small companies make bluetooth motor addons. You can even get a Lego HAT for your Raspberry Pi. It's vastly more open than just about any other system.
I went back and checked the prices. None have changed since my prior update except a Lego friends set which is now on clearance, so they should be evaluating even better against inflation.
They don't exist in the sense that you can walk into a brick-and-mortar computer store and buy one, or see it advertised in mainstream media, like was the case with Apple clones once upon a time.
I remember when I had Legos I had to build whatever my mind came up with using the pieces available. We'd play with it. Then a new idea would pop in our brains about how to improve the design and we'd tear down and build back up only bigger and better. And if we got more legos or new pieces, suddenly so many new possibilities for designs. What a difference a few new pieces made.
Now they feel like model Kits. My nephew asks for Star Wars Legos, or some other franchise based legos, builds whatever the structure is according to the manual, but then doesn't take it apart and it just sits on his book shelf. Never to be touched or rebuilt, even just for the heck of it. And why should he rebuild? It's like coding the same program out of a text book in exactly the same way. Been there done that.
I think this is one of the disadvantages of things like Star Wars Lego - you have something extremely well known to compare it to, and there's not really a point in rebuilding it, because that's the "best it can be".
Whereas my early sets, focused mainly around City, were nice, but I could build something else "City-like" out of them and not feel it was vastly inferior.
But, I think a bigger part is just kids are different. Some like building and then leave it, others build it and it goes into the pile of Lego quite quickly.
And keeping piece count steady even as prices increase - "ten cents a piece" has been a good rule of thumb for twenty years and only really been broken in the last few, but part of that is the average size/weight of pieces has been dropping.
I wanted an Erector set. My mom thought the tiny bolts would be impossible for me, but I pressed for one and got one. Had a great time with it. What I liked about it was the creations were metal and looked like machines.
The Lego stuff was all bright primary colored bricks. They often wouldn't stay together like a bolted Erector set creation. Lego was never for me.
Lego will always be cool to me. Without wanting to sound like a cliché, the only limit was your imagination when I was a child, before home computing. Forever grateful for those years.
If you’ve played and feel knocked off legos, “f this sht” will be a phrased used over and over as you try to read and assemble it. Even the instruction are world class stupid
I've built a couple of recent Technics kits and noticed a decline in the clarity of Lego's instructions.
Instead of clearly showing the 'path' of each part in a step, that is how and where to connect it to an assembly, they now tend to show the assembly with the new parts attached. This leads to a game of 'spot the difference' with the previous step.
You have to use HTTP for some reason. It's a database of Chinese lego clones, I've seen it before. Chinese lego is awesome, it's often cheaper than real Lego and there's lots of original sets including things that lego won't make (like tanks and stuff, think I saw a strip club set once). But there are clones of real lego sets too, whether that bothers you is up to you. Check out r/lepin for more
Chinese building blocks vary wildly in terms of clutch power and overall precision. But if all you're looking for is something to display and not ever touch again, it's probably the best way to go.
You might worry that the less general purpose, specialized pieces might stunt creativity, but guess what!? The 6 year old has no problem taking them completely apart and building something off script.
It's the olds who worry about keeping them all together and not losing the pieces so they can still make the thing on the front of the box. The kids don't care and will happily take it all apart and build things we never would have thought of.