Surprised by the amount of negativity here. So many comments that are saying the raspberry pi isn't competitive in their market anymore and then post more locked down less open systems at 2x the price.
I mean, keep in mind that the Pi5 is a $60 device with ~$60+ of support hardware (Power supply, cable, miniHDMI to HDMI, Cooling, Case, Storage) You can get considerably more powerful mini PCs for less than a 4GB Pi5 with needed accessories that is upgradable, has further software support, and includes all of what you need to get with a Pi. Also, you are reducing eWaste.
> You can get considerably more powerful mini PCs for less than a 4GB Pi5 with needed accessories that is upgradable, has further software support, and includes all of what you need to get with a Pi.
Name three, please, with emphasis on the "considerably more powerful" part.
The Pi5 is slower than a Core i3 6100, does not support upgradable ram, does not support Pci Gen 3 let alone Gen 3 x16, no actual Sata 6, no upgradable sockets, etc.
There are a TON of uses cases for a Pi 5...but only really if power consumption and size is critical for the application. Almost anyone doing a Pihole, Home assistant, or the like is better served by a used miniPc.
Someone buying used electronics on eBay has already decided that their time is worthless and the hardware doesn't need to be dependable out of the box. Which is fine, those are decisions a person could make, but it's just disingenuous to compare the value of one thing to another without taking the you are using someone's untested trash factor into account.
There are reasons to prefer a Pi over a used mini PC, but it is not reliability. The fact is that with Pis or PCs, _if_ you're still running after a week, you're highly, highly, likely to survive past the point of usefulness.
Reasons to prefer a pi over a mini PC - easy access to GPIO pins; small(er) form factor; power efficiency; lower weight; still cost if you can work with zeros.
Reasons to prefer a mini PC over a Pi - price to performance ratio is often far, far better; size is "good enough" for people just after a small computer (rather than an electronics project, POC, etc); you are, in fact, reducing ewaste.
In short, if you just need something to run Home Assistant or Plex on ProxMox or similar, you would find more reward in a mini PC than a Pi, particularly in performance.
The bias at play is that people see "old" and equate it with "bad performance". That heuristic only works when comparing like for like - yesterday's mini-PC to today's mini-PC.
The biggest reasons to prefer a Pi over a mini PC: the documentation, Raspberry Pi Press, the community, the ecosystem.
Let's put it this way: you pop in your SD card, set up a username/password, a few other settings, and you end up with a system that already has Geany and Thonny installed. Go to Help -> Bookshelf and find all the issues of MagPi and Hackspace for inspiration and learning, and a couple dozen books like "Essentials - Code Music with Sonic Pi" or "Get Started with MicroPython on Raspberry Pi Pico". Search "Raspberry Pi Hats" and get a lifetime worth of reading and learning there, hitting just about any domain you could care about.
The vision of the Raspberry Pi wasn't to create a cheap, tiny PC, it was to create a learning platform, of which the cheap, tiny PC is the basis. More than any other computing device I've seen, it really lives up to that vision.
> The fact is that with Pis or PCs, _if_ you're still running after a week, you're highly, highly, likely to survive past the point of usefulness.
I might be hopelessly biased since you would regard me as someone who keeps using computers when they are "past the point of uselessness," which is not a phrase I'd actually use.
A lot of the stuff I do to keep computers running after a long period of ownership does not even apply to the Pi, which is nice. I won't ever have to replace the fans on one of my Pis (the case design of the prototype Pi 5s we've seen notwithstanding), but that's a standard thing on PCs. There's maybe one capacitor on a Pi's board? I've never needed to think about it. I've guiltily thrown away and replaced soft power supplies on PCs, even though I had a friend once who knew how to fix them and I should really learn to do the same, but there's considerably less guilt when it's a USB wall wart. I've pitched a few SD cards belonging to Pis over the years (never the proper SSDs, though) but that has never been nearly as painful as a drive failure in a PC.
So I guess I'm saying I would factor in the maintenance burden.
> The bias at play is that people see "old" and equate it with "bad performance".
I see "used electronics" and "eBay" and think of "wasted time," "frustration," "incompetence," "shamelessness," and "fraud."
The other thing I would factor in is that my time is worth something and eBay's main goal, when it comes to used electronics, is to waste it.
> In short, if you just need something to run Home Assistant or Plex on ProxMox or similar, you would find more reward in a mini PC than a Pi, particularly in performance.
I'd split the difference here and say I'd be happy to run Home Assistant on a Pi and Plex, quite possibly, on a PC (but I'd want to at least test on a Pi). I'd be happy to buy a new PC for the purpose from a trusted retailer, or build it myself.
That's just silliness. The Raspberry Pi 4 / 5 are made with sub-$60 dollars worth of materials when brand new. You get what you pay for, which is not much and certainly doesn't include dependability. It's a hobbyist and educational plaything whose top design priority is to be low cost.
Little 1-liter office PCs from HP/Dell/etc. have MSRP closer to $1000 when new, meaning a correspondingly larger BOM cost, and are built to last until obsolete by PC OEMs who have years of experience doing that. Even well used units have better prospects for durability and longevity than new Raspberry Pi boards.
I get that you were trying to be edgy, but you landed on goofy. You're addressing someone who owns over a dozen Pis, dating back to the original 256MB Model B. They've been quite dependable for me. It is not something I need to hypothesize about.
The idea that a machine becomes more reliable as the number of parts increases and the cost increases is an interesting one, though.
I've been using RPis and secondhand mini PCs for embedded systems development and testing professionally for the past few years. I've got 3-4 dead Pis already out of a dozen or so that we have, a mixture of Zeros and 4s, which isn't exactly impressive. Meanwhile the couple dozen mini PCs, despite their age and having been bought used, have had only one failure, a RAM module which was trivial to replace. The failed Pis went into the electronics recycle bin because that's all you can do with them when the develop issues.
Sorry, I stand by my opinion that Pis are hobbyist playthings. I'm sure they were reliable for you but you probably weren't trying to do anything serious with them either.
What were you doing with those three boards that failed? I've got the feeling you meant total failure and we're not talking about SD card failures or broken connectors. Heavy use of GPIO?
> I'm sure they were reliable for you but you probably weren't trying to do anything serious with them either.
Of course it was serious. I was frowning the entire time.
> secondhand mini PCs for embedded systems development and testing professionally
I feel like I'm missing some key piece of context when people mention the humble dumpster origins of the PCs that keep coming up when comparisons with Pi are made. Like "we were trapped on an island the entire time," or "our company operates out of South Sudan, the poorest nation in the world," or something like that.
Raspberry Pi 4s fresh out of the factory often have hardware issues themselves (HDMI connector failures, unreliable USB port power supply on reboot etc.), as one can see from the numerous (and unacknowleged) reports on Raspberry Pi forums — so I find the comparison with used hardware fair.
Anecdote: my one attempt to use a Raspberry Pi PoE hat ended in almost immediate failure due to a mechanical failure of a header on the hat. (Also the built in fan is crap.)
Why lie? Pis have fragile connectors and they certainly break more often during use than a brand name laptop's connectors, but they do not have a high defect rate out of the box.
Power and consumption and size are probably significantly more important than the three you list. How often do you "upgrade the ram" in an application where something like a Pi may be used as a component in a larger system?
So double the price for slighly better CPU (3.9GHz turbo speed vs 2.4GHz -or 2.9GHz with OC-, both with 2MB L2 cache), for energy it needs 36W (vs 10W), 2 usb ports (vs 4), no microSD support, and it weights 4 times as much (without including HDD); it does have 256 GB of storage included but for $20 you can get a microSD of the same capacity for the Rpi5 (or 128GB for $10 when that's enough). Yeah, it doesn't look as that much of an improvement.
I just clicked it, and it shows $107 for the 8G/128G version.
But either way, I think your seriously conflating a lot of variables. Things like power draw are not really comparable unless you pick a workload and measure the perf/power, as just clamping the max frequency down, or putting less ram in it can constrain actual power draw, while still possibly being as performant as the rpi.
I don't see pricing for the case + fan + power supply on the rpi, but the 8G model is $80 for the board. So you have to find at a minimum a battery for the RTC, a case, fan, powersupply, and 128G SD for $30. But then SD isn't in the same ballpark as even the cheapest SSD with respect to longevity or at $10 likely perf either. Plus, your shit out of luck if you need 16G of ram on the rpi vs paying an extra $18 on the beelink.
In the end, the rpi is going to be a fun hack device, while the beelink is going to just work with a wide variety of software (windows anyone?) and Jeff G won't have to complain about his m.2->pcie->graphics card not working out of the box either. OTOH, if you actually need to design a HAT/whatever for some special purpose it might be easier than designing a m.2 PCIe device, or it might not be. The GPIO on the rpi might be very handy if it happens to work better than a ESP/whatever attached to the beelinks USB port driving GPIO pins.
Much of this is going to come down to how much one values their time for one off devices, and for larger production runs the fact that the beelink is just one of hundreds (likely thousands) of similar devices that can be drop in replaced when beelink has a supply issue. Particularly because there are devices that are just a $100 more with multiple 2.5G links, sata ports, whatever.
Throw in power adapter, case, and micro sd card for rpi 5. Price difference almost disappears. Do you seriously think that rpi with an sd card going to beat 256gig ssd?
> You can get considerably more powerful mini PCs for less than a 4GB Pi5 with needed accessories that is upgradable
What suggestions do you have for this?
I’m sure some people can find these, but every time I see comments like these (or ones that actually give specifics), it’s always used ones on eBay that aren’t actually better and are in unknown condition.
I’m not doubting that some people come out ahead, but for me, being able to get* the same hardware each time, new, has value. Also, a huge draw for RPIs for me are the GPIO pins.
* Yes, the past few years were hard, but not impossible.
When RPi 4 was going for $200, I got some Orange Pi 5s for about $140 each. My configuration included 8GB RAM, the power supply, and a 250GB NVMe drive.
It seems like it's about on par with the RPi 5 in terms of power. The OS support is lacking, but the M.2 and +4 "Little" cores make it pretty compelling regardless.
The used on ebay is the actual upside. The issue is that most people do not need the size of a Pi and using used hardware is reducing eWaste. That said, my personal grab was an Acer refurbished Acer XC-830 J4125 for $89.
While that looks like a nice small-ish tower PC it doesn't seem like it's in the same class as an rPI on a lot of axes, it seems half way between an rPI and a full desktop tower.
Honest answer: I want systems in my house that have a better power to work ratio than I can get from a used laptop or NUC, but can still burst to high power when needed for workloads that either have bursty compute demands, or on the rare occasion I run a consistent high-demand workload. That said, the RPi5 doesn't fit the bill for me.
Since replacing an old workstation for secondary/media computer in my office, and my laptop with Apple Silicon systems, I've been incredibly pleased with the efficiency one can get from heterogeneous core layouts in traditional compute devices. Not to mention the drop in thermals in my office. The summer I swapped out that secondary/media machine for the Mac Mini, the temperature in my office dropped 5 degrees Fahrenheit, while being just as capable for the things I used that machine for.
I'd like to do the same for my compute nodes in the house, which power my homelab for various workloads. Apple hardware's value retention doesn't make sense to pick up, even used, especially when I would have to trust an Asahi-flavored distro to make that work, so the platform stability isn't there. I don't need GPIO, so most SBC offerings just don't make sense. The only thing that comes close is the LattePanda Sigma, which would get me an Intel platform with efficiency cores. A SBC or even a NUC-like platform with a higher core count, at the $3-500 price point, would honestly be great! It just doesn't seem to be a market yet, and I don't imagine it will be until we see more penetration with ARM as a desktop compute platform.
I'm pretty sure I could do all that with an array of stolen business PCs, after I machined the serial numbers off. It would be cheaper for sure.
Apologies if it wasn't clear, my original comment was a joke. It's becoming a pet peeve that comments about used computers, presumably from users in the third- or even the fourth-world (?) where money is really tight, dumb down just about every thread related to Raspberry Pi.
Because I don't just want a PC, I want a learning/hacking/making platform, with the ecosystem and support to go along with it.
A used nuc or dumpster dived computer doesn't have two magazines, a couple dozen books, official support and documentation and guides, and an entire world-wide community dedicated to teaching and inspiring me.
Same as the people on Reddit claiming that Raspberry Pi has killed itself as a business because it's constantly in such high demand that it's always sold out.
They're claiming that they've killed themselves as a business hobbyists, which isn't exactly wrong. During their supply chain issues they made it clear they were prioritizing their commercial customers over the hobbyist market.
At this point the hobbyist community has moved on to other things (shout out to odroids). I don't think raspberry pi is going anywhere, but they do have a very different market and customer base than they did five years ago.
Also as a company their social media people really are assholes, which doesn't help at all.
> During their supply chain issues they made it clear they were prioritizing their commercial customers over the hobbyist market.
Which is 100% the correct thing to do. They said they were especially prioritising smaller companies that relied on Raspberry Pis, where otherwise those companies would collapse or need to lay people off, and also kept some aside for educational establishments.
Sorry to say this, but your home assistant plant waterer robot dog feeder is less important, especially since hobbyists can just go to another product much easier than a small business can.
> At this point the hobbyist community has moved on to other things (shout out to odroids). I don't think raspberry pi is going anywhere, but they do have a very different market and customer base than they did five years ago.
FWIW the communities I participate in are still RPI focused and I don’t think I’ve seen anyone using an odroid.
> Also as a company their social media people really are assholes, which doesn't help at all.
This is something I’m somehow unaware of (I avoid general social media); what do you mean?
FWIW, the odroid forums have some assholes that will come out of the woodwork if you even mention a competing product. I reported one, and the mods told me that the forum was only for odroid products, so they weren't going to take any action.
Yeahnah, I'm not moving to odroid, its a lot of faff and terrible support.
I have a N100, and some rp2040s for GPIO.
I have a project coming up that needs to drive a small screen, the raspberry pi is totally the platform I'm going for. There is no comparison for hardware and software options.
So what did all those people that couldn't get a RPI do? Stop doing stuff or did they move on? I'm pretty sure the other brands saw a big uptick in sales but if you know otherwise please do share as I have no numbers to back anything up.
Are there any odroid-based PiKVM-like devices? The PiKVM device is really well built and the software is good. Easiest thing for me to LetsEncrypt too.
Of the dozen or so friends of mine with them, only one really uses the rpi for anything "serious" after having played with it, hit some roadblock and tossed it in the drawer. Many of them have soured on it due to something not working right, spending a lot of time debugging it and being stymied by the fact that the docs need to fix some of the problems weren't open, or simply by the fact that it seems every single one is sold as "desktop class" and it turns out they are worse than 10 year old desktops for even basic things like say... playing youtube videos.
So there is a lot of negativity built up around them by people who got frustrated by the previous versions.
I feel like the negativity is coming mostly out of a very small minority that tend to gather here and to a lesser extent reddit. In other places there's much less of that.
