Undocumented people can't legitimately enter a country other than their country of origin, which works in both directions. In order to ship people "back" you have to do so directly, including the cooperation of their government to verify that they are in fact their nationals.
I think you can detain them until they provide documentation.
Not sending them back just encourages more people to come in, even if the journey is hard(i.e they are held up at various borders such Turkey). I don't see many illegal immigrants in UAE/Dubai for example.
What if they don't have papers? What if their country hasn't registered them? What if they lie about their name and birthdate, so their home country cannot identify them? What if the home country doesn't want them back?
People don't go to UAE because life will be worse there.
Your encouragement argument has no base in reality. You live your well informed western perspective. These people have no idea where they are going, what life will be like here in the EU (terrible for many). They take the risk because they have nothing to lose: famine, natural disasters, never ending wars, dictators. They don't do this because they are encouraged somehow, except that they can't stay at home anymore. That is the "encouragement" indeed.
The journey is not "hard". It's insufferably hard. Everything you have will be stolen. You may be kidnapped to do slave labour. You may get raped, killed, or see your mates get killed in front of you. And that is before you step in a small boat with tens of people to cross a sea with no navigation, not enough food or water.
When you enter Italy and see your refugee status rejected, you enter the human void of being "illegal", undocumented. You live by the day, no future lies ahead of you.
If you get accepted, you may have lost seven years living in some kind of open prison, no language lessons, nothing to do all day.
Talk about "encouragement", but this doesn't stop people either. So why would this encouragement argument only work one way? Because the discouragement measures do not work at all.
> What if they don't have papers? What if their country hasn't registered them? What if they lie about their name and birthdate, so their home country cannot identify them?
Not our problem? Not our problem, and not our problem. Keep them detained in the meanwhile.
If you want asylum the least you can do is be honest.
> These people have no idea where they are going, what life will be like... They take the risk because they have nothing to lose: famine, natural disasters, never ending wars, dictators.
It's an inconsequential act for the most part. "Nothing to lose" that they know of. I take it being more of a fad (certainly fueled by propaganda) than anything else
> The journey is not "hard". It's insufferably hard
"Everybody should know that" by now. But it seems they can't see that perspective. As I said, it's more of a reckless act than anything else. Asking for charitable views cease when it's more a choice than anything else.
And in the best case they'll be an overworked refugee with barely no perspective.
> You live your well informed western perspective
Having come from a 3rd world country, let me tell you that the naive views from the 1st world about this abound. (Your post thankfully is more balanced than most views out there.)
Especially thinking mass immigration like that will solve anything about labour shortages.
An example with France, there is between 400000 and 600000 (source an article from Le Monde) illegals, meanwhile the jail system can hold less than 60000 and are already full.
So, even if you want to put everybody in prison, you need some absolutely massive investments, and the cost every year will also be substantial (guards, food, sewage, etc, etc).
And I ignore the fact these facilities were designed for adults.
Update for clarity, My point here is to show that you cannot technically just "Keep them detained in the meanwhile." without doing monstrous actions at industrial scale.
There is a reason people usually cannot be detained without trial. That we start to make defavto exceptions for a certain group of people now is worrisome.
Pre-Trial is limited, needs a judge to aprove and is counted against your sentence. Pre-Hearing used to be limited, I'd have to lie on how long exactly, and required a suspected crime to be committed. Something rooted in German history.
Exception, and that got abused often, held in psychiatry in case of imminent risk of self harm and / or harming others.
> Not our problem? Not our problem, and not our problem. Keep them detained in the meanwhile.
Keeping people detained is absolutely our problem, even if you disregard their humanity, because it costs a lot of money.
> If you want asylum the least you can do is be honest.
You can be honest and still have not been registered in your home country, or not wanted by your home country… or worse: they do want you, so they can kill you.
> Having come from a 3rd world country
Which one? There's a big gap between South Sudan and Egypt, but both are technically "third world". (Even more pedantically, Ireland, Sweden and Switzerland are also third world, but nobody would use the phrase today to refer to "neither NATO nor Soviet Bloc").
Transportation always got cheaper once the private sector got involved. Even space transportation(i.e spaceX).
Transporting several millions of people yearly and cheaply(these people don't pay for extra leg room) is not really rocket science.
Right now it's so expensive because the government is as always disconnected from reality. They are deporting each individual on case by case basis using. air flights. The gov is even allocating one or two officers for each immigrant. Now consider boarding all the illegal immigrants on a big livestock carrier. It may take a while to reach its destination(s) but it will be cheap and surely the immigrants(at least most of them) would not try again the adventure. One big immigration camp in a single trip.
The "slaves" seem happy to work there. I mean they could stay home but prefer to work in Dubai. It's interesting how many immigrants work and live in Dubai.
The only complains I've heard are that you can't get citizenship.
What I like most is that people doing "funny" business are quickly deported. You don't see homeless people or beggers on the streets either.
I wonder, why Europe can't do that? I don't think there would be much push-back against migrants if we would have an efficient deportation system(i.e deport them after visa expiration or when they get involved in criminal activities).
> I don't see many illegal immigrants in UAE/Dubai for example.
How would you know? And is this a fair comparison?
I've heard that the country relies heavily on South Asian labourers with terrible working conditions, as well as housemaids who are effectively imprisoned by their employers. It's a huge section of the economy. I wouldn't be surprised if the government makes it pretty easy to enter legally, or if a bunch of labourers are flying under the radar without the government caring.
I decided to search for some facts and found the following:
* Immigrants, particularly from India, Bangladesh, and Pakistan, comprise over 90 percent of the country's private workforce [0]
* In 2013, the UAE had the fifth-largest international migrant stock in the world with 7.8 million migrants (out of a total population of 9.2 million) [0]
* About 65,000 unauthorized migrants — including those who entered the country illegally, visa over-stayers, migrants working on tourist visas, and others — currently reside in the UAE, according to official estimates (unofficial estimates run up to 135,000). [0]
* An unknown but likely significant number of migrants lack any identification papers after having “absconded” or abandoned abusive employers who withhold their passports [0]
* More than 10,500 illegal residents were prosecuted in the UAE in 2022, according to authorities.[1]
* In December 2012, the government announced a two-month amnesty program allowing unauthorized migrant workers to regularize their situations or leave the country without punishment.
* In August 2018 the government repeated this amnesty. [3]
* The UAE Government exempts fines for Illegal Foreigners/residents, under these conditions: your Emirates ID or Work Permit has expired, you are Workers who run away from sponsors and violate employment contracts. [4]
> I don't understand what's so hard simply shipping the immigrants back on a big ship once every 2-3 months.
Because as a result of the events from 1933-1945, everyone has the individual right to claim asylum in Europe. Despite the far-right working hard to abolish that, we won't.
Besides, for countries like Syria there's a deportation ban in place by the European court system.
As an American, can I go vacation in Europe and then toss my documents and claim I'm seeking asylum with a succesful outcome of being granted permanent residency and the ability to work?
As an American, you'd be far, far, far, far, far, far more likely to succeed in migrating by following one of the European countries' legal migration paths (each country has its own policies). Most European countries are very interested in allowing migration of skilled workers, and in several countries, being a fluent English speaker is a bonus.
On the other hand, it might be technically possible for you to meet one of these country's criteria for "refugee", "displaced person", "asylum seeker", etc. but it is _remarkably_ unlikely.
> The right to asylum is guaranteed by Article 18 of the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights. Article 19 prohibits collective expulsions and protects individuals from being removed, expelled or extradited to a state where there is a serious risk of death penalty, torture or other inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.
Also, you don't need to "toss [your] documents", I'm not sure why you think that's required to initiate an asylum process lol
Someone versed in EU law can chime in, but I imagine that being literally undocumented would only make the process harder (though it would be abundantly clear that you're an American anyways)
Indeed, they will need to check your story, and that's a whole lot easier when they know your identity (otherwise they have to verify your identity in other ways, which will certainly take more time...).
Then why people with asylum rejected are not sent back? Most of the immigrants are economic migrants yet I have not seen any massive deportation but we can see massive immigration every year(i.e big ships with "rescued" migrants). Most of them don't even bother to apply for asylum.
How do you ship 5000 people a day to say Mali or some other war torn place? You cant just dump them off the coast of Lybia, we aint Trump (yet).
Plus most dont have papers and can easily claim coming from war place (which many do, but I suspect most are economical migrants). This isnt easy to solve, look what Australia is doing (detaining immigrants in Papua IIRC in bad conditions to scare others).
You wait 3 days and ship 15000 on a single livestock carrier. The trip will take a while but will be "cheap" and efficient.
For example Italy had about 126k immigrants last year so one big ship every month could have solved the issue.
For immigrants who refuse to provide documentation/identificatiin you can just dump them on an isle like Australia is doing. After all nobody is forcing them to conceal their identity. I'm pretty sure that after a while less and less people will be willing to spend their money and resources knowing they will be deported back. At least the economic immigrants.
The less are deported the more will come.
Thanks but no, we learned how Hitler transferred people undesirable to him and we can definitely do better... Plus you didn't answer how do you want to return them to places like Mali, Niger or Central african republic, there ain't a ship sailing there, better check google maps before commenting.
Because a) we don’t want to be the baddies, we want instead feel good despite walling ourselves from the problems and poverty we at the very least contributed to or at most were the primary cause b) it has economic benefits long term c) actively deporting people costs money d) making it possible to easily deport people erodes rule of law and all the nice things we all like.
The problem fundamentally is living in a nice place and not really contributing to making the place so nice. Everybody wants this privilege and there is of course the market and the price for having it.
Real answer is the same as with drugs — be the mafia yourself
