Programming was my Plan B, too.

(Funny that it was for so many others.)

I tried startups for a while, 3x as a founder and 2x as a first engineer. I found I liked engineering more than business, design, and other roles.

I then joined a big company and fell in love with the work. Engineering with lots of resources and more hard problems than you have time for, in an environment that rewards EQ, is so much fun. I never expected it’s what I’d be doing.

Programming actually became my Plan B.

I started off in computers... obsessed but never thought I could do anything with them, and I didn't want to end up staring at a computer screen all day. Instead, I went to university and studied psychology, hoping to have more interaction with human beings. Specifically, I wanted to do something with social psychology and industrial-organizational psychology.. something with the workplace and human psychology.

Fast forward a multitude of social jobs, university life, living in another country, and back home to pay student loans... I applied for any job relating to the psychology field across the board. Bachelors degree ain't gettin' you much in this field.

So with my bills due, I fell to an old friend. A skill I taught myself when I was 12: programming in Visual Basic 3. I landed a job for a software company programming in VB 6 for a year or so. Eventually, I started to have an interest in web design and development, and that's where I've been for over a decade.

I started my own company developing web applications too though I can't say I've monetized them to the point where I could quit any day jobs. So while I'm still in the field of web dev, I'd dabbled in the stock market since I was in my 20s and made enough money to get myself into real estate, and my next endeavour is owning a portfolio of properties with mountain views... and renting them out for passive income. I'm working on my third property right now.

> I'm working on my third property right now.

Honestly interested in this. Would you say that renting out a property is another full-time job and not a "passive income"?

It can be a full-time job depending on what you choose to do or it can be the simplest thing for you. It's scary at first. You kind of just dive in and learn as you go. Watching videos will certainly prepare you but having the backbone to do what you need to do is necessary.

You choose whether you want to pay all utilities or include them for which there are pros and cons. If you can imagine yourself having one monthly bill, would you prefer that?

So you can do this in two ways:

1) DIY (easy, moderate, hard): this requires you write up your own contracts and agreements which can be automated through rental management software such as Zillow. You can list on there too. Most of these online software companies will do the background check and you decide if you want them as a tenant. This also requires that you be on point such as being strict on rent and establish some rules as well as try to think of several scenarios that could go wrong. You can either rent a furnished place or an unfurnished place. The furnished places where you include utilities and the Internet can go for a lot more. A lot of travel people love those. Especially if you can come in as competition to a hotel/motel. You at least have the kitchen. It also means that you maintain and upkeep your place, so any of their complaints you must handle.

For this, there is a dark side of DIY.

There are things that can go wrong and there are plenty of people who will take advantage if you are not strict. For example, I was actually still living in my house renting a room out. I went away for a month to take care of my family. I come home and there's a random person living in my house. I have no idea who she is. I ask her and it turns out she's a friend of the roommate. So I ask her if she's ready to sign a lease. She says she's still looking for a job. I tell her she has a week and we'll talk. A week later, I go to hand her the lease which would be due on the first (giving her a full 2 weeks before rent is due) and she says she's been paying rent. To whom, I ask? You guessed it! So you have to have to harden your heart and say, "See this contract right here? The one you and I both signed? Where does it say you can sublet? Where does it say there is an authorized tenant besides you?" Then you have to do all the legal work as you can't just kick them out depending on the laws in your state. It's usually like 30 days notice so then you have to hope they don't destroy your home knowing they have to get out of it eventually. Not much protects you except maybe your insurance. Everything is pretty much by notice but certainly helps you when you have to go to court. Oftentimes, as much as you "don't care", you legally can't just kick someone out into the cold overnight.

2) Hire a property management company (easy): the pricing varies usually from 10% to 25% of the total rent or a monthly fee but they do all the work for you. Some even offer to furnish the place for an extra fee if it's not already furnished. You can opt out of that and have someone move their stuff in. The issue with this type of renting is that moving around heavy ass furniture can damage your flooring. There are pros and cons to furniture but the way many people are nowadays: they don't want to even worry about it. But these types of companies will do all the work from listing the property to signing a tenant into the lease, collecting the rent, and even doing the monthly or tri-monthly inspections, maintenance, as well as possible evictions. For this, you're just paying the mortgage and supplying the home. If you financed at a reasonable rate, you could make $300+ a month after all is said and done and once you pay off the mortgage, it's just pure profit. If you send extra towards the mortgage, you'll be that much quicker to getting there. However, you might want to even just save the extra money and start putting money down on another place.

I have actually tried #1 when I was renting out my house while living in it and tbh... I'd rather just go with #2. True passive income there. Just be careful about who you sign with and their policies about letting that company go. Some don't have an "expiration" and you have to pay a fee to break the contract you have with them.

Thanks for your insightful reply!

It's clear that you have a lot of experience with managing rental properties and have learned a lot along the way.

What advice would you give to someone who is considering investing in real estate for the first time? What are some important factors I should consider before making a purchase?

Also, given the potential risks and complexities involved in real estate investing, don't you think it's less worrisome to just invest in stocks?

Thanks again for sharing your expertise on this topic!

I'm actually just starting out and fell into it all at once and had a few friends who have been doing it for years, so I called them up for the advice.

Let's start from the bottom up: I love stocks. I love investing into the stock market, but it was a wake up call when the tech stocks crashed and the market was going crazy. Is it better than stocks?

Real Estate is often a bit more stable than the stock market because it can be better predicted. If the houses around you are selling for X dollars... chances are, your house will too. A house is never going to be $0, even some of the houses in really bad shape that still have their structure and foundation cannot go down to $0. Stocks are a bit of a waiting game and they have their advantages and disadvantages, but you can't do anything to make extra money on them.

For a house, make the extra money on it by renting it out, improving on the structure itself, and after you pay off the mortgage (or even if you don't pay it off), sell the house for more or hold on to it. Housing is supply and demand with many opportunities to take advantage of. Most people got a very amazing surprise in 2020, especially those that had just closed on their homes, only to see the values go up by $100,000 the very next day. However, people buying houses at those prices... they might only see a $20k or $30k increase over the next few years. There could also be a housing crash though at this moment, its unlikely.

So now let's get into your top questions: What advice would you give to someone who is considering investing in real estate for the first time? What are some important factors I should consider before making a purchase?

This depends on what type of investor you are. For most appraisers, the only thing they care about is the square footage and everything in between and top to bottom. Thus, they value the house and structure, nothing more, nothing less. For others, they may also include in the view. For me, I love a damn good view. Nothing like waking up in the morning and opening your windows to an ocean or mountain view vs. a bunch of other houses that allow your neighbors to see you naked. I just don't care to be staring at neighbors' houses when I look out of the window. I value privacy more than I value neighbors. I also like to buy places that are "centrally located" meaning they are within walking distance to entertainment, food, movies, gas stations, etc.

I also tend to prefer buying condos than houses, but this comes with the overhead of an HOA fee to maintain the property. Pros and cons to this wherein someone else maintains the property and I just have to worry about insuring the inside walls, but condos are slower to increase in value than houses are. However, I prefer to rent them out, pay off the mortgages, and make the profit from that.

Going back to the stock market real quick: I could've kept money in the stock market and waited to take that out and retired at a certain time. Or I can hold on to mortgage-free places and live off that income every month. Plus, if you hold on to it for 30+ years, inflation and cost of living is going to give you more money in your pocket. Real Estate does require a bit more work upfront, but seems to pay off and is more predictable, while the stock market -- has its ups and downs and its knowing when to hold em and when to fold 'em , as the Late Great Kenny Rogers sang.

So let's talk about two friends I have.

Friend #1: George. Friend #2: Joe.

George is more of a risk taker and a lavish spender, while Joe is more calculated and likes to save his money.

George uses the bank's money all the time. He barely ever uses his own money. He is always pulling the money back out of his properties to re-invest in new properties. The upside is: he's not using much of his own money. The downside is: those houses technically always belong to the bank.

George owns 10 houses. He said, "Every month, it's like Christmas when I get those rent checks coming in." George takes out the equity of the house and puts that money into another house. He's always buying something -- just bought himself a trailer park somewhere in the midwest. Anyways, George said, "I don't care about views. I don't care about location. I care about how much is my ROI. If I put $10k down on a house and I'm renting it out for $2000 a month and I'm making $1000 a month on that house, that house only cost me $10k, that's a good investment for me." George will buy any house in any location as long as he can make money on it. George always knows he will find a renter so he doesn't care where he's buying.

Joe owns his own limo service located in three major cities across the USA and gets a lot of his money from his business, so he tries to buy houses outright and pays off the mortgages pretty quickly so he's making pure profit from rent and owes nothing to the bank.

Joe, on the other hand, is more about location. He bought every single house on his block, 10 houses total, all of them with mountain views in the backyard, that were next to his house. Joe values the fact that he can keep an eye on all his houses everyday. He would go to his neighbors, ask them if they were interested in making money while either still living on the property, or moving away. Many neighbors wanted to move, while others were older and ready to receive that paycheck upfront so they could go traveling and things while still being able to live in the house. He would assume their mortgages and pay the difference of what they were asking.

Two investors in real estate, but two very different types of investors. And me being the third: I love location. I value location as much as I value the property. Start small if you want. Nothing too crazy. If you're not good at fixing up properties, than buy something that was already remodeled. If you are good at fixing up properties and have handimen friends to help.. you'll save a ton of money, especially by buying worn down properties, restoring them, and reselling. This is another type of investor. Real Estate has tons of different types of investors. I hope this helps a bit. Take a leap of faith.. the worst thing that is going to happen is that you find yourself not interested in doing it anymore and you just sell the property. If you aren't going to do it.. there's a hundred other people who will. There are even women-owned companies buying up houses and doing everything from renting, renovation, and reselling.

Thank you for your very detailed answer mattbgates.

I must say that currently I am not looking to buy a property as an investment since I live somehow close to Ukraine and am waiting for the situation to cool down a bit. Still, it's my plan to diversify by investing into real estate in the future.

Thanks a lot again!

Programming was my Plan B, kinda. In high school I was like "I'm a writer, but that doesn't pay the bills, so I'll do software (which I was already doing for fun anyway) and make a lot of money and retire early, then start writing full time."

Which was kind of dumb, I didn't have to wait that long to start writing, I've got several early draft manuscripts now (I struggle with editing, though).

Also I was always big into making my own games, even as far back as like 6, when I was drawing levels for imaginary games on reams of printer paper at my grandparents. I did eventually start doing that, released several games, spent some time in the game industry for a while, pursued board game design (as a professional hobby) for a while, etc.

If board games paid better and if I didn't have so many financial responsibilities and a desire to have money saved up for retirement, I'd probably pursue that full time now, and only program on my own to facilitate that (i.e. make video game versions of my board games, or write simulations to test various mechanisms in my game designs, etc).

I don't really want to code for anyone else now, especially the types of jobs/clients I keep getting offered (i.e. in insurance, health, marketing, or finance). But I need to make money, so for now I still do, while hoping a side project or my wife's side business (of being a writer, funnily enough, which she is much better at writing books that sell than I ever was, I just liked making humorous books, those are hard to sell unless you're a handful of authors) takes off enough that I can afford to jump off (or at least take a paycut and switch back to video games or something).

You're still incredibly young, I wouldn't assume any of your decisions up to this point are remotely permanent. I'd rather be 23 coming out of prison than 40 and rich. Make a plan and make small steps towards it everyday and eventually you'll have a great life.

Programming wasn't even my original plan.

I went to school to be a geneticist. First year of college, I sign up for classes as a nerd and see "Intro to Video Game Programming" and pick it of course. Starts out in Game Maker, but halfway thru the year they switch to show the code being generated, and it was like a magic moment for me where I was like "holy shit I want to do more of this". Moved over to coding and never looked back.

What would my Plan B be now? No idea. I feel like I could pick up a variety of different corporate professions like sales or marketing or something in a short enough time to not screw myself over. But nothing sticks out in my mind.

The 'software industry' is so wide that I don't think anyone needs a 'Plan B'. If you don't like the specific project, company, language, framework, etc., that you are currently working on; then there are thousands of other opportunities out there.

You can specialize on a certain area (web programming, device drivers, phone apps, etc.) or jump around. Most skills you learn doing one task are helpful as you move on to the next one. Even if find you don't like sitting down at a computer writing code anymore, you can go into project management, consulting, or other related area.

There was no plan B. Failure was not an option, it was only a matter of how long it would take to get there.

Heh - seems like we had a similar path...

I ended up making a lot of coffee and doing a lot of crap work for the best coders in the companies I worked for, just so I could look over their shoulders and learn :-D

I'm on plan C or maybe D now. Math kid at school with enough computer exposure to know I wasnt a good programmer. Tried math at college and realized I needed a plan B. Became a librarian.

Learned VMS, Unix and Pick because the book systems ran on those OSes. Realized library profession was dying due to what I felt was gatekeeping. Plan C: do IT.

Did IT for a few years, joined a sw company, sysadmined for a bit, realized they were making more money, moved into line of business work and eventually sales.

Am still a shitty programmer.

Well if you want to have an easy life, try getting a job in finance. They always have a lot of money to throw around and no shortage of menial tasks. All you gotta do is put on a white collar, do your 8 hours of prison time every day, and pretend you're a serious person.

Alternately, just go for something fun, anything that seems like a good time. And then give it all you got. Trying to join the staff of some big YouTubers or something sounds like a perfectly fine dumb idea.

"Precision Marketing" is probably the most valuable, employable skill. Not the usual "brute force" marketing that blasts ads at everyone without much thought. "Precision marketing" deeply understands and targets the desires and fears of carefully chosen prospects.

This is basically the art of persuasion and needed whenever two or more humans interact: resumes, job posts, job interviews, asking someone on a date, etc are all forms of marketing yourself.

I used to think programming was powerful; "precision marketing" (persuasion) is even more powerful. There is a limit to how much you can program yourself. There is almost no limit to how much you can program by persuading others to program for you.

I recommend this book for learning more about "precision marketing." I spent years studying marketing, and this book is like a greatest hits list of the best ideas I learned: https://expertsecrets.com/

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I figured out I wanted to work in UX while getting a degree in CS. Unfortunately, the CS degree kind of pigeon-holed me as a developer with no clear path to a UX career. Even though the companies I worked for had departments and even entire buildings devoted to UX, my managers couldn't help me get there. (Backgrounds in sociology, statistics, psychology, etc were preferred.)

So I pivoted to "precision marketing" when I discovered how closely it resembled good UX: you need to focus on the user, their desires, and obstacles keeping them from their desires.

There was no backup plan. I knew what I wanted to do and I knew I was fairly adept at it. Failure was not an option as the saying goes. If I got into a car wreck and got brain damage or something were I was no longer able to do it, I would probably take whatever job I could find.

FWIW my resolve was certainly shaken early in my career after the dot bomb, but I managed to find a job through a prior coworker in another city 6 months after.

I don't really have a Plan B for my career, but I almost studied linguistics in university, thinking I'd get into academia. I ultimately found working in industry a more rewarding path. My personal current backup plans would involve considering taking some time off to be a stay at home dad, since I am lucky to have an employed partner, or try to work on writing fiction. A back up career could be language translation, but it would have to be only supplemental to my husband's career. Maybe I could do some kind of project management, but I'm not sure what that kind of job looks like outside the software industry.

Some alternatives that don't involve college could be learning a trade like plumbing or electrician work. You could also look into community college at your own pace as you can afford it and find some other shorter term job in the meantime. I would also not give up on programming if it's something you enjoy. You could always try a coding bootcamp (CodeUp is legit) and work your way into the industry via a smaller company where tech is more of a cost center than a core focus area.

Can you expand on what you mean by:

>Now I'm 3 years out of school, unable to attend college, I've unfortunately strayed from my path and I'm failing to find my way back to it.

What is your path? Programming? Why can't you get back to it? Just open an IDE and write some code. Or do you not want to write code for money?

> What was your backup plan if things didn't work out as you intended, what else could you have chosen as your profession?

I've been in love with coding since forever so I had no plan B. Still don't have a plan B even though in the past I did write (and typeset myself, back in the Quark XPress days on the old, pre OS X, MacOS days and even with typeset one with LaTeX too) a great many books.

So... I'd say my plan B would have been, although I didn't know it, something related to "writing words" instead of "writing code".

I did really enjoy learning typography and typesetting too.

But I don't miss it: I'm glad to be "writing code".

I'm also procrastinating since years on starting a blog for fun (not for profit), which is weird as I've written complete books so a blog doesn't sound intimidating.

I fell into programming. I had been programming since being a wee lad but I never was too keen on studying or school itself. After high school I realized that I couldn't get into the school I wanted, studying psychology in my case, probably could've gotten in there if I would really wanted to, who knows. At that point, I was pretty good at programming and thought that might as well try some computer science stuff. Luckily got into one school, but got a real job on my first year, and the school became secondary for me. I was able to audit lots of stuff so I could finish my Bachelor despite working at the same. After that degree, haven't looked back to schools since and, for some weird reason, I quite enjoy my current software engineering job.

Programming was my plan B.

Out of highschool I wanted to be an architect or civil engineer. I was set-up to spend a few days in a cabinet to have "preview" of my career. I was disillusioned very fast, mainly because of the prevalence of nepotism and corruption (at least in my country of origin).

I got a Mech Eng degree after high school and did that for a few years. That was my plan A. Never had a plan B until I started learning to write software. Now the Mech Eng stuff is maybe my plan B (although Im not sure how good of a fit I'd be after this long).

Kinda fell ass backwards into programming. I don't have a degree either. Studied physics -> computer repair as a side hustle -> help desk worker -> dropped out -> Linux/data center admin -> programmer.

IMO, the Linux/physical datacenter stuff is the most fun. Especially if you can read RFC/specs and program. That space is rife with awkward manual processes and roll your own solutions actually make sense with surprising regularly.

You might want to find a place with a physical datacenter and give that a whirl.

Also, a lot of people don't have degrees. Don't stress it.

Similar to a few other people, programming was my plan B. I had been hacking around with stuff since I was 12, but I was never really interested in joining the industry, at least not immediately.

But my plan A fizzled out and left me with no plan (in reality, it’s probably better that A failed), so I quickly hobbled together plan B. I regret making this my career, and I hate how I did it, so now I’m desperately searching for plan C before it’s too late, but it’s not looking so great atm. I thought I found one, but a poor timing with a layoff have jeopardized that.

While learning programming there was never a plan B, it was either that or nothing. I think I fought pretty hard for it, and in the end that worked out well. Now that I am quite far into my career, my plan B for when things become even more tedious and boring (lets say 5 years from now, in my 40s), is becoming a personal trainer and nutritional coach. Because I just like working out and staying healthy so much, that I would love to inspire that in other people.

Echoing some of the other people here... I didn't really have a plan B. I started programming around when I was 12, and fell in love with it - I knew it was what I wanted to do for a living.. looking back now, even when I was going through college for my Comp Sci degree, it didn't even cross my mind to have a plan B if programming didn't work out.

I'm actually not really sure what I would do if I wasn't doing programming.

Pretty much the same here...I started programming around 10, and by 12 I couldn't imagine doing anything else. 40 years later, I'm still loving it :-D

I still get surprised when I see people making money without a computer..it just seems like such an alien concept :-)

Programming was my plan B, too.

I wanted to pursue artistic endeavors like writing or photography. But I was told from early age that there is no money in art and art is for rich people.

Somehow I got into video games and then programming to make my own video games. Programming seemed like right at the intersection of science and art. It felt like a good compromise. And now I feel truly lucky on how everything turned out.

Programming actually was my plan b. I studied chemical engineering, thinking I wanted to be a scientist or an engineer, maybe go to med school. I accidentally graduated with a minor, my major GPA was a 3.3 and my minor GPA was a 4.0, and the only thing I enjoyed in my major was the computational side of things, so I just pivoted.

Programming is a generalist thing though. Usually people go to com sci then eventually fall into an industry (finance, healthcare, manufacturing, etc). But now I see more Business, Art, etc majors getting into coding.

With AI and ChatGPT touching on everything like lawyers or even doctors, coding is become more commonplace for sure

Programming was my Plan B.

Originally I wanted to go into astrophysics but had the crippling realization that there wasn’t much money in that field. Coming from a poorer family that put an emphasis on becoming financially stable was “the dream” I went into Comp Sci.

My Plan C (at the time back in college) was in Comp Sci didn’t work out I’d join the military.

There's no plan B.

I have only one plan, as well said by Mr Einstein:

"Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited, whereas imagination embraces the entire world, stimulating progress, giving birth to evolution."

More concisely: "Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere."

I got an Electrical Engineering degree because I thought it was interesting, but I always planned to go into software. I suppose I could have gone into hardware if I didn't like software.

It sounds like you are looking for a Plan B to exercise. If you don't mind my asking, what is holding up Plan A?

Plan A was programming.

At some point I thought I wasn't productive enough at programming (too slow). So I switched towards IT. But I realized that what I enjoyed was automating tasks, that I was good at it, but not much valued in the market I was.

I switched back to Plan A where I am successful.

I had no backup plan, and still don't. From the age of 12, I knew that this was the only realistic option for me, and it still is.

If I had been born before computers existed, though, I'd probably have been a mechanical engineer.

My backup plan was to join the military. It's a terrible way to discover what you're good at but it ensured I had food, water, and housing for 4 years + the ability to make a career out of something.

Programming was (sort of) my Plan B... I declined any offers to do my Masters in Philosophy a few days after reading "How to Think Like a Computer Scientist" and applied to do a Bachelors in CS.

My plan B was either military or police. Probably in something tech related like digital forensics.

In general, the bar for entry to government work seems fairly low. The pay can be low too.

Unlicensed pharmacist.

> The doctor wore a white coat that was frequently splattered with blood. His fingernails were filthy, stained by the chemicals he used to concoct his magic elixirs. He wore thick glasses and spoke in a thick German accent. His office was messy, chaotic, crowded with patients who sometimes waited hours to see him.

> In a back room, he mixed up his medicines, sometimes passing the potions over magnets or boiling them in beakers with fluorescent stones. His concoctions contained vitamins, steroids, animal placenta, bone marrow — and a powerful dollop of amphetamines..

https://www.historynet.com/jack-kennedy-dr-feelgood/

Econ masters/MBA and the business world was plan B .. like a stock or financial analyst.

grew up in a rural area w no tech opportunities, so i was really banking on a trade job like welding or locksmithing being my reality. but moved a lil ways out to city on a whim and managed to get a jr development position thanks to a strong github

I was never smart enough to make plans but luckily programming found me eventually.

plan A - startups

plan B - big tech co

plan C - tech at investment bank

plan D - tech at walmart/mcdonalds/etc

Can you explain plan D? Is working at Walmart (e.g. Walmart Labs) that bad?

WM labs is a bit of a special case. I’m talking more about IT

Run a pawn shop.