I think a more interesting story would be about the people that grind for years and years and never make it. You're left without a useful skill and no money, and probably a deficit on your mental health because you didn't go out and talk to people in real life for years. I think its not at all worth getting into as a career because making it big is like starting out as an actor, you have to know people. If you hit it big and are complaining about being burnt out, just walk away. Sorry that you pissed away your money and don't own a house, I guess? Could live pretty damn well on the money you made from it for a decade or more if you have self control, and have zero debt. Find something else to do in the mean time.

What other career can you make as much money, with such a low barrier to entry in skill and capital? Pretty much every other job requires just as much sacrifice of your time with nowhere near the same earning potential. Most of the big earners started streaming within the last 5 years[2], and even then, the top 2000 streamers are making 100k+[1]. I heard YouTube streaming is paying even better now.

1. https://twitch.pages.dev/en 2. https://twitchtracker.com/statistics/active-streamers

The folks who don't make it are an interesting group on their own. Something like 95% of streamers have under five viewers, and the majority of those have exactly zero viewers. Thinking about all those thousands of people broadcasting day in and out to exactly nobody is kind of fascinating. It's not like broadcasting on a ham radio or shouting into the aether or blogging on a little independent site thinking that maybe somebody might be reading it. They know that exactly zero people see it. And they do it for months and months.

There are some interesting articles out there that look at the motivations and experiences of the zero viewer streamers: https://www.theverge.com/2018/7/16/17569520/twitch-streamers...

There are also some websites that send you to streams that nobody is watching: https://nobody.live

Anyway, not really your point, but a fascinating group of people to think about.

> Anyway, not really your point, but a fascinating group of people to think about.

Oh, hey, I sort of fit into this group, since I stream with a VTuber (virtual avatar) persona and play niche indie games. Sometimes a friend or two drops by and we chat, other times someone new drops by and says hi, but there are also those times where I spend an hour or two playing a game alone and talking into the void, expressing my thoughts, maybe getting a clip with something notable in the process to link to friends later, or maybe upload the full video somewhere later.

I'd say it's not that dissimilar from working on my own personal programming projects or even some of the blog posts that I might end up writing off and deleting, since nobody is going to see the majority of those either - if they turn out good and someone does, then great, but if not then it's still a nice experience, that's also mostly free of any expectations.

As for related things, streaming lets you practice expressing your thoughts better and speak more clearly (which is especially relevant if English isn't your first language, at a point where you can use it well enough, but your pronunciation just needs more practice). It also lets you figure out how to have decent audio/video quality and create content - something that has also helped me in meetings and while working on a programming video series.

> Something like 95% of streamers have under five viewers, and the majority of those have exactly zero viewers. Thinking about all those thousands of people broadcasting day in and out to exactly nobody is kind of fascinating.

When you say the majority of 95% have exactly zero viewers, do you mean at a given point in time, or ever? That makes a big difference for how to think of their situation to me.

> https://nobody.live

Something about that name is hauntingly sad.

Just spent past 20 mins talking to a guy who seemed in great distress! Seems happier now :)

I didn't want to click on it. Feels so exploitative.

Yeah, I mean it's like saying watching a street performer is exploitative, I think -- people are streaming because they want to be seen ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Seems more helpful then exploitative

I like to go in categories I like (a game or passtime like music) and randomly dish out subs with few viewers -if I like it of course-

It’s a great way to support and meet people.

I'm kind of one of those people (I took a long break, but want to start doing it a bit more again soonish).

I do it in part just because I'm playing the games anyway and have the equipment, might as well stream it. If no one watches, oh well, no big deal, I'm still playing the games I was going to play with that time anyway.

And secondly, I am wanting to start doing some coding in public more. It's fairly stressful having to articulate what you're doing while you're doing it (tried it a couple times), and it sort of feels like I'm in a whiteboard interview at times, but I think it's good practice to become more comfortable doing it, and articulating what I'm doing as well as getting feedback from others could help me become a better coder.

Also the game I'm working on in my spare time (a sequel to my old Proximity strategy board game that was popular once upon a time as a Flash game and on Xbox 360) will eventually have support for a Twitch audience to play along via the chat, so I'll need to stream in order to test the game properly anyway, and hopefully by the time I get to that point I'll have at least a small handful of people who will be on there and can playtest it with me.

Also part of the reason I took a break is it turns out using an ultra-wide monitor isn't ideal for streaming (aspect ratio is off). I love my monitor but when I go into games I have to mess with borders and things can get cut off without adjustment, etc. I did get a Cam-Link recently though and got streaming from my Switch to work (and presumably my PS4), and it let's me stream 1080p without stressing my computer (no worry of dropped frames) and also letting me use my monitor still for Twitch chat, so that'll probably be easier to manage.

I've got some time off starting next week so I'm hoping to start getting into the habit of it again. If anyone's curious, I have the same account name on Twitch as on here, although I'm debating changing it to something that can be a bit more ubiquitous online, and haven't decided what yet.

Probably not all that different from musicians/artists/writers/bloggers who never attain any audience. However, the immediacy of the feedback would be soul crushing.

Truly interesting.

Mostly true for most academic papers as well. Not just the humanities, but the sciences too. Since you can track how many people actually clicked on the download button for a paper, you can get a sense of how many people actually read it.

Only one of my few papers has ever been downloaded by someone not on the author's list (we can compare with each other). Granted, that one's been downloaded a lot. But still, most of that hard work and going back and forth with editors is for naught.

Your blog post today may be read tomorrow.

Twitch streams can be sent or uploaded to Youtube so they can be viewed later.

Of course the couple that I bothered to do that with also have basically no views as well :)

The difference is creating music, art, writing has its own intrinsic reward. I have a ton of photos on my instagram and barely any followers for the amount I put in. If I was just doing it for the likes, i would have given up on it a long time ago.

The stats are a bit skewed I think, because you have to have an account on twitch to participate as a consumer on twitch, so all those 0 view streamers are very possibly people who are actually consumers and had no intention of streaming themselves.

No, people who don’t stream aren’t counted in the above statistic (which is trivial to spot check)

Another possibility is just using it to capture your own play, for instance if you want to review matches later to try and analyze flaws in your game.

That's massive stretch. Why would anyone do that? Twitch player isn't that great if you want to seek around the video

It works easily and keeping hours and hours of video locally still requires quite some storage space

My OBS recordings (of mostly game footage) come out to between 1 and 1.5 GiB/hour for 1080p resolution. Given that simple external HDDs start at about 20€ for 500 GiB, that comes out to 6 cents of storage per hour recorded. Your power bill for the gaming PC is going to be higher than that in some places.

OK, so we’ve established that it is possible to do it another way if you want. But why get an external hard drive if you’re happy with Twitch VODs?

Twitch VODs are only retained for 14 days (or 60 days if you're subscribed to Twitch Turbo).

Yeah but are you going to want to review years-old footage or stuff from the last few weeks?

I have only streamed for slightly over a year, so I cannot say anything definite about "years-old footage". But I can absolutely see myself going back to that footage when I get nostalgic about any of the games that I've played. Especially with games that you can only realistically play once, like Outer Wilds.

I only have really used it for fighting games and my object was more to look for issues in my game. So there isn’t that much point to looking at very old footage.

One use case is speedrunning. If you don't have space on your PC and want to record your runs.

I myself have used it for this purpose so I don’t think it’s a massive stretch.

There are 150+ million accounts on twitch, but only 10+ million people who streamed in the last months, and around 5 millions who seem to stream regular. Doesn't make the impression of being skewed by people who did not aim to stream. Sure, some might hit the button by accident. But more likely, it's just people who have a different aim than making viewers.

I think you're making the mistake that the point of a Twitch account is to stream. Accounts are useful for viewers with no intent to ever stream as well

Doesn't seem too different to most musicians having zero audience outside friends.

> I think a more interesting story would be about the people that grind for years and years and never make it.

I wonder the same for athletes. Was recently reading Nadal's biography and parts of book describe his routine in childhood and teenage. And my first thought on reading that was "what if he hadn't made it to the top?" because he essentially had no semblance of a regular childhood/teenage. Being out on the field at 5am day after day, year after year seems only worth it in hindsight if you make it to the top.

I guess, in the end, Gita captured this as well: the only way to be able to put extraordinary effort is to not care about the outcome.

Tennis isn’t pro or bust, though. There are viable career options that make tennis your life if you really want that. You could coach (whether coaching a competitive player or team, or giving lessons at a clubhouse), you could be a tennis writer, you could work adjacent to tennis like designing or selling equipment, etc.

Tangentially, I’ll add that trying and failing to become a pro gamer is very different than failing to become a streamer. At least if you’re playing competitively, you have to move beyond shit talking your opponent. There’s a lot of coordination and communication required if you’re playing a team game. Any game requires a ton of dedication and focus, and a level of creativity within the confines of the game, all of which are valuable and transferable skills. Sitting and playing games by yourself while waiting and hoping someone stops by to watch you doesn’t teach you much.

Sure, but it doesn't seem worth it to give up your childhood and early adulthood if it turns out you couldn't cut it and have to become a tennis coach instead

Seems like this could apply to startup founders as well.

Startups are much more team work as compared to success in sports. And success of many startups can be attributed to being in the right circles rather than founder's skill/grit. The modern day founder hero worship is exaggerated imo.

It seems like you’re downplaying the importance of teamwork in sports. There are very few who succeed in sports who aren’t team players. Most of them fizzle out before we ever hear about them.

Otherwise, I agree.

Totally. Deep inside the capitalist machinery, what really propels it forwards is the irrational human need to do something really crazy. If only rational MBAs ruled the world, nothing new would ever happen.

You can always just get a job later in that case.

This is true. Founding a startup probably makes one more employable for more jobs than training for tennis every day.

Of course it makes you more employable. If you put in some real effort towards running a business, you have to gain some amount of business knowledge. People who understand business implications of technical decisions are usually pretty well-paid.

Is Twitch earnings their primary source of income? They arent making income as a media personality outside in addition to the subscriptions and/or connections that could help them after?

I have a feeling the same warning could be given to actors going to LA trying to make it. A percentage become dish washers after washing out in a couple years but tons who don't find a reliable pay cheque via work in the thousands of related jobs that help run the movie business. The personable ones could use their media skills in the wider business world (marketing/pr/events/etc).

I guess you could say they are all in their parents house's bedrooms not touching grass 24/7 which is different than a failing actor, but being an internet personality is much more involved than just being a pro-gamer who falls off by 25.

The endgame of twitch-income is getting sponsors and cooperations. Subs and donations are limited by your viewer-numbers and how many whales you can play. But even a small company has pockets which can compete with any whale one has. And you can have multiple companies at your hand, feeding you, if you are good enough.

Grind is also not the hacker mentality. One wants to move a mountain by carring it to another place, the other wants to find a stick, a small rift and cause an avalanch after a nice walk, that will redirect a river.

>Most of the big earners started streaming within the last 5 years[2], and even then, the top 2000 streamers are making 100k+[1].

The leaked data reports earnings made over almost a two year period, 23 months to be exact. So the earning potential isn't quite that good, it's more like around 1000 people earning the US median income and 1000 above it

This is basically true of any creative endeavour. It takes an insane amount of time/effort with very high opportunity cost.

I guess it's just a question of risk/desire. Are you willing to risk it for a chance, or opt for something more stable like an office job or the like.

I think the world is shifting towards more stability, like how uni degree is for getting a job.

Your last paragraph seems to have the opposite sentiment to your the first half of your first?

This smart way to have cash and follow your passions is what needs to be inculcated in the future of tomorrow. Just by chasing and grinding on something with no results after several years then the chances are you (or whoever) won't make it.

The far majority of twitch streamers do not have some illustrious career waiting for them. People in big cities with competitive degrees are underrepresented on twitch relative to other areas.

> Most of the big earners started streaming within the last 5 years

I'm not sure what numbers you are referring to. There was a huge increasing in streaming and watching during the pandemic. Many of the big streamers are in their late 20s or even early 30s. Which is relatively old considering you can start streaming in your teens.

Either it’s easy and nobody should complain or it’s hard and people are making a crazy investment with no idea about return. I don’t know if it’s so different than sports. Yeah, it’s better to be LeBron than a guy who was just short of being good enough for the pros. But playing at that level is not easy no matter how much you are being paid.

>You're left without a useful skill

Not convinced that's 100%

e.g. I've watched streamers keep ~50 people entertained on a stream for 3+ hours.

Monologuing that long and still have people listening seems like there is definitely "something" there even if not easily transferable to an office job or whatever.

I disagree on the low barrier.

Twitch is entertainment. You are a professional actor and clown. It's a real job just as hosting the Daily Show is a real job.

I treat my media creation as a business. Hours in and ROI are important, especially since I have a family and also try to keep their lives out of my online presence.

I looked at adding occasional Twitch livestreams to my output but quickly realized to make it return any kind of sustainable income, you have to practically "become a streamer".

There's no slow on-ramp like with YouTube, where you could start earning income after a few weeks/months of producing content and promoting it, growing an audience.

And then if you want to pause YouTube for a month or two, you don't lose the metrics that allow you to have an income.

It seems like Twitch is a grind, a lot more so than YouTube (where there's enough pressure, thank you very much!), and unless you're fully devoted to it, or are single and/or young with a lot of time to burn (and very mature about how you burn it), it's going to be very hard to maintain any kind of work life balance.

Maybe youtube streaming is the answer, produce unedited streams some time when you feel like it, hire an editor or edit yourself if you have the time to get the highlights and it might also help grow your youtube audience which will bring in some passive income.

I agree twitch isn't sustainable or even good for anyone. I've been caught in it and quite addicted for the past year, finding in it another form of escapism that's in my opinion more harmful than youtube. On youtube eventually I run out of stuff and grow bored for a while. On twitch that rarely happens, mainly because it's more engaging to watch something live than a youtube highlight of the game, I can interact with chat live and backseat the gamers even though I'm ignored most of the time that's more engaging than passively watching a youtube video where I can provide no input.

A friend wants to start a channel. My instinct was that’s a very long shot (pointless even), but I told them I’d help if I could. Any advice for starting on YouTube?

Tell them to make the videos they're missing on Youtube. If there's already 100 people making that exact video, then there's no gap to fill. Anything else can bring in some money (if you play it right).

I personally made some videos showcasing specific products I used in my hobby. I made video's that showed them in a way I wanted to see on Youtube before buying, but couldn't find. I then added some affiliate links in the description. These video's brought in some money that I then spent on other stuff for the hobby.

Don't expect to earn a living wage off Youtube. You have to get very lucky (or be incredibly good, see 'Stuff Made Here') to do that. Earning some money is quite doable though, if you find the right niche.

Do your thing, use your free time and don't expect anything.

Your first 100 videos will be awful. Quantity over quality[1] until you hit that.

Not for specific reasons, just because you're learning. If you've gotta go through hell, go fast.

[1] videos still need to be watchable ofc.

E: what is watchable though?

Begin, middle, end. Intro, stakes, hook, call to action, meat and potatoes, another cta, summary and seeya next time, don't forget to like and subscribe.

Keep a sense engaged, audio or video should always have something happening. Dead air is the sound of viewers leaving.

Reengage the audience after each scene change.

When in doubt, have a countdown to something. Show the remaining time wherever you get bored watching it back.

Record everything, edit to nothing. Make the video the shortest it can be while still watchable.

Believing effort is equal to reward is an express train to burnout.

Same as any other business: give the people what they want, ideally something no one else is giving them.

Otherwise, just do it for yourself, go hard, go deep, and hope for the best.

Find an underserved niche and start feeding it.

I remember in another thread you mentioned that you're doing YouTube pretty much full time but you also said ad revenue isn't that much, so I'm still curious if it really is worth it financially and if so, what the best monetization is, especially for another techie looking to produce YouTube content. Is it worth it these days?

This whole thing is eurgh. Yes, this business is toxic for creators, but it's largely toxic for creators because it's monetizing a toxic product. Twitch is like a low cost off-ramp for having friends. The better, well adjusted version of twitch is that you log on to xbox, playstation or PC, hit up your friends and play some games and chat. That's the ideal. Then everything tumbles out from there, people without the time, social skills or inclination log on to twitch and form parasocial relationships instead. As a Twitch streamer that's the job you're doing. So it's not surprising when if you don't turn up, people tune out - they came to you because you aren't flakey like their real friends. You have to provide the social interaction and the dependability they need. If you're not doing that, you don't get paid.

Arguing about how Twitch streamers are treated is like arguing how Uber drivers are treated. The business is exploitative by nature, do you know how to not get exploited by Uber? Don't be an uber driver. There is no world in which Uber exists and Uber drivers aren't exploited. Similarly there is no world that exists in which Twitch streamers and viewers aren't exploited, because as a business it's only mode of operation is exploitation.

The parasocial nature of it is a bit concerning and (to me) deeply weird.

I went to a presentation by a couple of streamers at an event a few months ago, aimed at people wanting to learn a little more about it or get into it themselves. They referred to the people in the chat as 'chat' but warned never to use that word in the stream, instead have a cute name for it. One always called them her "besties" which helps give the impression they are friends. But they aren't, they're the audience, they're people she doesn't know and doesn't want to, and they're the income source either directly or through being paid to promote stuff to them.

I came away feeling the whole thing was weirdly dirty.

I know that there are a lot of streamers who aren't in it for the money, who hang out and watch each other's streams for fun and game together on the side. That's by nature going to have a very limited audience and that's fine, often these folks do know eachc other and it's genuinely social. And I know there are the superstars who people watch like tv because they make entertaining content. But there seems to be this middle ground of para-social streaming that's not quite either of those other things and just feels wrong.

> They referred to the people in the chat as 'chat' but warned never to use that word in the stream, instead have a cute name for it.

Strange advice. Pretty much all Streamers I know, call their viewers chat. How big on twitch were those people speaking there? What kind of content did they made? Calling viewers by a cute name makes the impression of being more on the abusive side of community-interaction, or having a very young community which does not understand yet the parasocial relation.

I got the impression they were plugged into whole communities of streamers for whom this is entirely normal.

I have no idea how big they are, I don’t think they were aiming particularly young, one was regularly streaming horror games.

To me the whole thing is weird in many other ways (why watch other people game?! I could be gaming!) but twitch seems set up for this sort of stuff and it feels pretty unhealthy.

Maybe I can answer some of your question. I'm a daily twitch consumer, and perhaps worse, a lurker at that.

It is basically the same as TV or YouTube for me, neither of which I consume much of. Good streamers are entertainers, and are interesting to watch. It is low effort consumption and relaxing. I learn about high level play for games that I enjoy, even if I watch them more than I play them.

Most of my watching takes place as I lay in bed waiting for my melatonin to kick in and pass out.

So your whole thesis is based on this nonsensical idea that the only reason people come to twitch is because they’re too socially maladjusted to play video games themselves?

What the actual what?

I don’t watch twitch streams as often as I used to because I’m low on time running like four different businesses these days, but I always enjoy experiencing games through the shoes of somebody else. I get to discover a game at a different and more flexible kind of pace than if I were playing it myself. It removes the commitment while still letting me see everything it’s about.

I could talk for a while about when and why I prefer watching over playing myself. But what’s the point if you’re just going to dismiss me as some friendless, asocial shut in who doesn’t know how to talk to people, because I dare not use my Switch anymore?

Agreed. One of the first times I encountered Twitch IRL was in the laundry room of my apartment building, where a neighbor who I knew had a young child was watching a streamer play a game while he did the laundry. Good for him, I thought.

I started watching Twitch when I started working remotely several years ago. It's good for background noise, keeping up with games that I can't justify spending money or time on, and sometimes good for a little chitchat. Some people will have an unhealthy relationship with it but to go back to the musician analogy, this doesn't seem too different from obsessive Beatles or Elvis fans. (Or Justin Bieber or Taylor Swift fans, etc.) They will always exist. I'm happy to support someone with beer money for this little bit of entertainment.

it seems many people read way too far into this with a distorted "back in my day!" mentality.

I watch twitch nearly every day and subscribe to (pay) a couple of streamers.

You know what I don't watch? TV. Cable, satellite, or otherwise.

This is simply modern entertainment. Streamers are professional entertainers. As for the people who seem to have a parasocial relationship--none of this is new. In my childhood I had a parasocial relationship with MacGyver and He-Man. Some grown men of questionable stability had it with Brittany Spears or whatever.

The only new thing is the platform. Everything else is just humans being humans as always.

The amount of MacGuyver content you got over the original 7 year run is about the same amount of content that a popular Twitch Streamer will put out in about 7 weeks. And MacGyver won't read your comment in chat and respond to you. It's a vastly different situation. Not least because in 1985 when the original Macguyver came out the entire television viewing population of the US were watching a handful of networks. Now the economics mean that there are 100,000x as many content creators to support, creating content at 52x the previous rate. So are we expecting revenue per viewer to be 5,200,000x times higher? Because that's the ratio of the content being produced.

There seem two be two different things here.

1. "100,000x as many content creators to support"

Hollywood has always been flooded with countless failed would-be actors / entertainers. Just because you can't see them like you can in Twitch, because they couldn't publish stuff in the 1980s, it doesn't mean they didn't exist. This is an old problem.

2. "The amount of MacGuyver content you got over the original 7 year run is about the same amount of content that a popular Twitch Streamer will put out in about 7 weeks."

We're not talking about the actor, by himself, winging it and producing an episode on the fly. With Twitch, that is typically the case. On Twitch, content being produced is of lower effort and higher volume. It's a huge difference but the math balances out.

As an aside, "fan mail" did exist back then too. Viewers would write in to a P.O. Box and if they were lucky their letters were read on air.

Lots of people had toxic relationships with pop stars. Just look how Kurt Cobain ended up.

> Twitch is like a low cost off-ramp for having friends. The better, well adjusted version of twitch is that you log on to xbox, playstation or PC, hit up your friends and play some games and chat. That's the ideal. Then everything tumbles out from there, people without the time, social skills or inclination log on to twitch and form parasocial relationships instead.

Yeah, this is spot-on based on my experience.

I got into Twitch in the early days and have been a watcher and lurker for most of the past 10 years. The periods where I've been most content and fulfilled in life have easily correlated with spending less time on Twitch because those needs were being met in a healthier way.

On one hand I'm thankful to have discovered it because the faux-social fulfillment it provided when I've dealt with depression. It wasn't ideal but it was a good option in times where I didn't have energy to commit to real life relationships. OTOH, I wonder if ignoring Twitch altogether would have pushed me to get out and do the things that would have helped me climb out of the hole sooner.

I never watched Twitch but this is true of myself for YouTube and Reddit.

I was never ‘happy’ when I scrolled through Reddit for 3 hours. (Reddit in particular was horrible for my mental health). I never watched 4 hours of YouTube when I had friends to go out with. Finally I realized that I felt much better when I cut those out and spent time on more important things.

All of these websites are trying to take as much of your attention as they can and it’s difficult to have a healthy relationship with them.

I watch a streamer (cooking) with a bunch of autoimmune diseases. She has a lot fewer people watching than anyone mentioned here (30-100, but a far higher percent than normal donate), but she’s also scared of taking days off, mainly because she knows it’s a job. It makes me sad when I see her stream while one of her diseases is flaring up, but unlike the rich streamers, they need the money.

At her size, unless she needs to take ~weeks off per month, and more importantly, at unpredictable intervals, she can afford to stream fewer days. Too many of them are incorrectly assuming that they need to stream daily, when (e.g.) MWF will suffice. What many viewers value over long streaming hours is predictable streaming hours[*].

I've observed many promising streamers stream daily and for too long, burn out, then unable to stick to even a reduced streaming schedule, thereby losing a substantial fraction of their viewers in the process. Then they became more demotivated, got sucked into a negative feedback cycle, and eventually quit streaming altogether. :-/

[*] Of course all else being equal, more time streaming ~ more income, but it's not sustainable, unless you're Amaranth & has an abusive spouse as her task master.

She doesn’t stream every day (and she has been doing it for 4 years by now), but the schedule is still hard when you are sick.

Sorry I was being imprecise when I said daily in my original reply, when my main point was that consistency's more important than duration. IMHO, once a viewer base is established, one can be sustainable streaming ~3 hours twice a week. If that's still too strenuous due to her illness, then I'm even more sorry for her, and perhaps she should instead -- if not already -- focus her energy on applying for disability benefits / grants, and only treat streaming as a hobby.

I mean, mostly it works out. Most days she loves streaming. It’s when her diseases flare up that it’s an issue.

The problem here is that no job will cover enough paid leave for a person's chronic health issues. We get 10 days of personal leave a year in Australia outside of our annual leave. I use almost all of my personal leave just to go to medical appointments for my chronic issue let alone take a day off because it's flaring up. It's safe to assume that being able to host a stream within your choice of working hours and in your own space is already making work far more comfortable than what most people with chronic health issues experience at work.

"...she’s also scared of taking days off, mainly because she knows it’s a job..."

At risk of sounding cold, why would anyone think YouTube/Twitch is a job?

Honestly confused. Is there money there? Like, for an average person, aside from the platform celebrities?

It pays for all their food expenses, plus some extra stuff. As I said, the stream has a higher amount of people who donate than usual.

Several years ago, I watched a gaming streamer, even smaller. She lived in Croatia, and just the subs and irregular donations were enough to pay for most of her daily expenses.

So, an average person can make a living wage on income from YouTube/Twitch royalties?

Neither of those mentioned is on YouTube, and neither of them could survive on that alone. The Croatian streamer didn’t have to pay rent (her parents owned the apartment), and the Australian one has a partner with a job (but his job alone would not be enough). The Australian one would be closer to make a living wage, though (again, unusually high donations).

A big part of streaming on Twitch or Youtube streams is donations from fans and subscribers/members (regular payments from fans). Royalties from advertising is a part of it, but a lot of the money comes in from donations. Another common approach is merchandise in the from of stickers and clothing, people love that stuff.

You can do well even as one of the smaller streamers if your community and other monetization is strong. I've never really gotten why people donate, especially to the bigger streamers since it's clear they already have money. But it's a big part of it. You can easily watch hundreds of dollars in an hour get donated to even to a smaller or mid level streamer.

The other stream I watch, most donations actually pay for the food of college students in Moscow, Idaho, USA, as the stream is a food truck in that town ;)

I don't know what you consider an average person vs royality, buy yes, there's quite many people I'd consider "average" that makes their living from Youtube - most seem to be starting at around 50k-100k subscribers before it becomes feasible.

Sweet Anita (streamer quoted) makes at least in the low 7 figures. She is a celeb, not a normal person.

That’s who the article is (partially) about, not this sub-thread of mine.

> I watch a streamer (cooking) with a bunch of autoimmune diseases.

Out of curiosity, as someone who never used Twitch, what is the discovery process here? As in how did you find this specific streamer in the first place? My (likely biased) impression was that the platform is mostly for gaming streams.

There are some other categories like Food & Drink [0], Just Chatting [1] (everything from talkshows and outdoor over scams (Elon Musk is apparently giving crypto away currently) and softcore porn), or Music [2].

Outside sometimes watching a new RPG, I stay away from gaming sections as the community tends to be toxic and turnbased RPGs are a smaller niche anyway.

[0]: https://www.twitch.tv/directory/game/Food%20%26%20Drink

[1]: https://www.twitch.tv/directory/game/Just%20Chatting

[2]: https://www.twitch.tv/directory/game/music

I hope they live somewhere with good healthcare, this is sad :(

AUS, care for her diseases is pretty much covered. But paid days off of twitch are not a thing.

What's her name? I'd be curious to check out her stream

Content Warning: Strong and offensive language ;)

https://www.twitch.tv/kattskitchen

Feels like YT is a better fit? Cooking seems better suited to VoDs than streams.

I don’t think you really get donations on YouTube? And her whole stream is very interaction based, there have even been multiple parties where local (= Australian) viewers were visiting and the whole event being livestreamed.

> I don’t think you really get donations on YouTube

Youtube recently introduced a membership function, I don't know how exactly it works but should be something along those lines

That’s subscription money, not donations. Those are mainly a live stream thing.

Twitch has become a much lower risk more rewarding place for many creators who want to make "low effort" content in respect to edited/curated videos. Earlier this week a content creator with ~4,000-5,000 average concurrent viewers (~300th biggest by follow count) leaked his "bounty board" of advertisements he could show to his viewers, this included a $1195 "bounty" to watch a 1 minute trailer and a $7365 "bounty" to play the video game Genshin Impact for 1 hour. I find it a little wild an advertiser for a movie is willing to pay $1195/minute for 10,000 impressions (in a generous case). This is opposed to other models like youtube, where creators can make videos that wildly vary in viewership and advertisement payments. Subscriptions on twitch add another vector for streamers to make more consistent income, even when not streaming. This is likely a reason Twitch is the dominant streaming platform in America

The advertiser isn’t paying $1195 for 10,000 impressions. They’re paying for an endorsement. That’s much different than the YouTube pre-roll ad model.

There was something posted before about how low viewer count / less popular content creators have more impact on their viewers.

So 100 promoters with 1,000 fans each has more impact than 1 promoter with 100,000 fans.

How big was the bounty for "leaking" the bounty board?

Was that Asmon?

It was "pokelawls".

https://old.reddit.com/r/LivestreamFail/comments/zj54oq/poke...

https://i.imgur.com/BLlyZ55.jpg

Since when does Asmon have 4000 viewers? Last I checked he had 75k.

I don't actually watch him stream, but recall seeing a yt clip where he said something similar

Seems like a lot of streamers think that streaming = not working. By the time they realize streaming is a job, they're burnt out.

I respect the hell out of Ludwig for this. He treats streaming like a business, and his success speaks for itself. He doesn't foster parasocial relationships, and he avoids as much of the petty streamer drama that he possibly can. He's now transitioned towards large productions that draw in greater numbers of viewers. The huge streamers making six figures or more have more than enough money to hire personal trainers, therapists, and personal assistants to help manage their daily life. I feel very little sympathy for millionaires who commentate Youtube all day for a living for being incapable of managing their own lives like adults.

Fame is often fleeting which pushes people to try and save for a rainy day even if they are pulling in 6 figures. Adam Ragusea a quite successful YouTuber mentioned being quite burned out because he was doing almost everything for his videos, but said he’s also got 1 million in savings from a job that could go away at any time. For a 40 year old with a family that means a lot if things fall apart.

At the other end Hacksmith doubled down on building a team and poring everything into making more videos. So now he’s now overworked and depressed, while trying to manage and pay a team.

There is something of a middle ground, but the odds of long term success aren’t very good.

Hacksmith isn't the best counter example. Because he accidentally built himself a business and team that can fully operate without him. And he, the business owner, would still earn revenue.

The owner only gets to step aside if the company is profitable which hasn’t happened yet. It might end up as a profitable company, but right now things are quite risky.

I respect Forsen for similar reasons, always stays out of drama, predictable schedule, and the community ("bajs") are one of the funniest on the internet.

Forsen feels like one of those meta content creators on Twitch where his fans and his name have become more famous than his content primarily.

It does all seem to come down to, "there is no such thing as a free lunch"

Making money takes work, no matter what you do. If it doesn't take work, then lots of people will do it, the market is flooded, and it won't make much money anymore.

This is simply unavoidable.

> I feel very little sympathy for millionaires who commentate Youtube all day for a living for being incapable of managing their own lives like adults.

I mean, both getting yourself to the point (especially if you were not born upper class) where you realize you need a therapist/trainer/personal assistant and actually finding good people at those is incredibly difficult.

Ludwig's fan interaction is still too para-social IMO, despite him trying to step away from it. In some sense Sykkyno would be a better example who actually distances himself really away from over interactions with fans and seems really in control of his life.

Every time I see articles talking about this subject, it's always completely focused on Twitch streamers that stream for a living. I would be more interested in hearing the contrast with streamers who stream for fun/not for a living. Which problems are the same between the two groups and which are unique?

> Every time I see articles talking about this subject, it's always completely focused on Twitch streamers that stream for a living.

Because, for the most part, those are the only people affected by these problems. If you don't stream with the intent to maximize your viewer counts and profits at all costs - stream when you feel like it, play what you want, don't chase trends, don't encourage parasocial relationships - you're basically immune to most of these issues.

But these people aren't excluded from numbers in these articles. 95% of people stream to 0 viewers, but do they even care?

I'm kind of one of those streamers (went into it more in my other comment).

While I would love to have a decent number of people following me (assuming I get back into the habit of doing it regularly), if no one does, it's really no big deal, I have a well-paying full-time job anyway, I don't need to earn a single cent from it.

I recognize that, but surely there could be overlap in some areas or problems unique to streamers who don't stream for a living.

For example, I could see streamers who stream for a potential social benefit may feel the need to chase trends, play the more popular games, and other similar things in order to increase/maintain viewership for more socializing opportunities. However they may also have a unique set of problems that streamers who do it for money do not have.

> streamers who stream for a potential social benefit may feel the need to chase trends, play the more popular games, and other similar things in order to increase/maintain viewership for more socializing opportunities

I've never heard of any streamers like this, but if any do exist, they are effectively no different than people who stream for profit because the intermediate goal of maximizing viewership is the same.

Maybe. Or maybe there are interesting differences. It merits being looked into rather than dismissed immediately.

Small streams are great when you want to interact with chat and the streamer. Once a stream grows bigger than a couple hundred viewers, interaction suffers and the stream becomes something else.

Bigger streamers are more like watching regular TV where you just passively watch.

this is the difference in streamer dynamics that doesn't get enough coverage

Title: On Twitch, you can never log off.

Content: Here's some people who logged off Twitch.

And they still make millions a month or year.

Pretty nothingburger article. Millionaires got caught up in the fame and the rat race. Very blurred line between work and personal life. This will happen.

Surprised this doesn't mention Asmongold. He just took months off from streaming and just came back like last week, and already just hit over 50,000 paid subscribers again. (In those months off he was streaming on his non-monetized alt channel where he doesn't feel any pressure with streaming and earns nothing.)

Streamers have to also be doing YouTube or creating alternate revenue streams because live streaming will inevitably burn you out. But you can take breaks...

He's an exception to the rule. Same with Shroud, Dr. Disrespect, etc.

In fact there's a whole bunch of OG streamers who can play literally any game they want and they still have strong following (LIRIK, Soda, etc.) simply because they grinded out early on. Whereas for the middle of the road streamer (let's say 1-2k viewers at any given time), they can't take breaks or switch games without a huge dip in followers, and therefore $$.

> Whereas for the middle of the road streamer (let's say 1-2k viewers at any given time)

Sentences like that show me how far removed my twitch experience is from others. Middle of the road, 1-2k viewers. The biggest thing I watch has 200 something viewers, sometimes with a raid(s) we reach 300-500.

Recently, I watched CohCarnage (because he had early access to an alpha releasing the next day), and he had a few thousand viewers. Chat was just a constant stream of letters. Impossible to have a conversation or even keep up with what’s going on. I disabled the chat a few minutes in, I do not get the appeal of mega streams.

"we" didn't reach 300-500 viewers, the streamer did. If you want a parasocial relationship then I understand the appeal of smaller streamers

We, the community. If that bothers you, I’m sorry.

I disagree as well. The community didn't do what resulted in the raid. That was the streamer. Yeah you were there watching, but it's like saying "we won" when your favorite sports team wins.

> it's like saying "we won" when your favorite sports team wins.

Which is commonly said, yes.

You might say we won the game. You would never say “we” got xx million viewers or any sort of commercial achievement.

At this point, I’m going to keep doing that even for streams I don’t mod, just because it seems to really annoy people ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

That's pretty much big strangers and temporarily embarrassed big streamer behavior.

Without the community there's no one to use in the raid, Twitch with no community renders streamers entirely pointless.

The metric being measured here is viewership, so I'd reckon the viewers are directly involved in that "win".

I've always watched streamers mostly based on the personality rather than whatever game they happen to be playing. If anything it's more interesting to watch someone I'm familiar with try out a new game.

Looking at stats though it seems like I'm in the minority - switching games kills viewership for most streamers (at least in the short term).

I disagree. It might feel like that but I don't think that's true, talking from personal experience. I mostly watch hearthstone streamers and when they're streaming something else their viewership does indeed drop but that doesn't mean I unfollow, just switch streams since there's 10 other options at any given time. I will come back to their stream or check them out again eventually because I'm not really committed to any particular one, I even sometimes have 2-3 streams open and switch every few minutes.

I know, it fucks up my time and attention span and it's not good for me but if I'm representative then they have nothing to worry about. I think they're mostly scared to even experiment because they know they're small and are too afraid to rock the boat

You make it sound like they can play any game they want because they are popular. But it's the other way around. They are popular because they are entertaining to their audience regardless of the game

1-2k viewers by most metrics of subs/donations/sponsorships gives you a very very very comfortable life. Maybe even approaching millions a year. That's the 0.01% of twitch you're talking about. Anybody with over 500 consistent viewers is the exception.

I personally know someone who consistently has 1-2k viewers. I would say $80k~$100k is more the norm for that size. $1M/year a stretch (including YT, IG, paid influencing, etc.)

> gives you a very very very comfortable life.

Monetarily, sure...but the point is that you if you suddenly take a month off, you risk that comfort.

Wasn't he streaming on his alt (zackrawrr)?

I literally mentioned that in the comment you replied to, yes

Isn’t this the next level of burnout that YouTube creators have been complaining about and feeling for years?

And before that movie stars.

Yeah but it’s everywhere, you have to keep earning or you become irrelevant. Otherwise I’d be working 10-20 hrs a week

The way out is to just consume less. Have a less impressive house, have a second hand phone, cook your own food. And then you can work less in return.

Yes and no.

The problem is financial position seems to have trajectory.

And with financial inequality widening all the time you don't want to be on the wrong side of the "middle" line if you can help it.

For example: Less impressive house vs more impressive house with year on year compounding of % increase in value over 20 years. When the houses are both worth double what they were, the more impressive house has gained financial ground.

You may live out your life fine in your less impressive house. But now your kids inherit a house worth substantially less compared to their more impressive house peers - hence the comment on trajectory.

Whether that matters to you is for you to decide. It's the difference in thinking between a lifetime vs a dynasty.

This kind of thinking is a big part of what's wrong with the world. Why do your kids deserve to have a house that they didn't work for?

Inheritance tax should be 100% above like 1M

Sadly you got downvoted but your comment seems to make two contradictory statements.

Your second sentence seems to imply 100% inheritance tax. IE kids get nothing.

But then your last sentence implies "well, the kids can have something, but it should be limited."

And on that point, I agree with you. I honestly think that wealth inheritance above a certain threshold should be 100% taxed - just gone. What that point is, I'm not sure. Maybe 10 million. Maybe 100 million. But should billionaires be friggin' born!?! I think not.

However, there are a few practical issues with this:

- get the rich and powerful, who at least influence law if they are not outright making it, to agree with this?!? Ha!

- even if you manage to do it in your country. Then the rich will simply hold their assets in another country that doesn't do this. So the scope has to be world wide. Good luck with that!

- what do you do if well before death, parents simply happen to slip, trip and make the poor business decision of selling a billion dollar asset for pennies... and the buyer simply happens to be their kid? Prevent intrafamily purchases? Then you simply have cliques who sell to each others kids.

Look, for one reason or another society has decided that there is to be no limit at the top. We've just got to live with that. But we don't have to be happy about it.

I'm not contradicting myself. I think inheritance should be for emotional reasons, but at the end of the day things have a dollar value associated with them. A car, or jewelry, can be an asset but also have emotional value. Setting a limit lets people keep the important things without hoarding wealth.

And the rest of your comment I mostly agree with, it's not an easy change, and there's lots of challenges to be solved, but that doesn't mean they can't be solved. We don't just have to live with it, we have to solve the problems 1 by 1.

Because they won’t be able to earn it on their own. The class mobility window in the USA is really closing fast

Well, let's fix that instead then!

I can’t scale down work to 1/4 hours and just get paid 1/4 it’s all or nothing.

The majority of companies I have worked for allow you to take unpaid time off. Maybe not to the point of 1/4th work, but you can pretty realistically get a 4 day work week this way.

You might be surprised, if you actually tried.

The vast majority of people making a living on Twitch and streaming full time aren't getting rich from it.

Like housing, healthcare and education, and anything kid related is free

I remember in the 80s and 90s lots of people wanted to become stand up comedians. It's harder than it looks (in fact your job is making it look easy).

This is also true for the other 99% of full time streamers who average less than 300 viewers and make a bit more than a cashier at Chick-Fil-A. Most of them leave the industry after 4 years and have to find a new life for themselves with nothing to show from it.

I get that its an emotionally demanding job, and I get that the people who get to the top are likely to be the kind of people who will work themselves to death to stay there, but like, its not actually "competitive" when you're worried about making 2 million dollars a year instead of 15.

I didn’t read the whole article. However, there have been a few articles about successful Twitch streamers that have made millions. They have all said that there is a ton of pressure to stream on a regular basis. Very little sleep. So, I do believe there is pressure to stream all the time.

If you can make millions doing absolutely nothing and zero pressure, please tell everyone the secret. We would all appreciate the insight. Otherwise, a lot of us with common sense expect there to be some form of grind and sacrifice to make millions of dollars.

Honestly being a “streamer” sounds like a horrible job. You have to work very long days entertaining a large group of socially maladjusted watchers who think you’re “friends” because they watch you a lot.

Not to forget the unstability, from changes in monetisation to possibly of being banned for wrong words. Maybe just for going against some mainstream narrative. And then maybe someone just spams chat and it ends up hurting you.

I think while this may not apply to a small minority of streamers (certainly only a tiny minority of successful ones), it can useful to think of most streamers as a form of sex workers. While not engaging in strictly sexual activity for money, their job is to perform (non-sexual) intimacy in order to foster parasocial relationships because this is how they get paid. This is more obvious with those typically disparaged as "boobie streamers" but it equally applies to men or more "modestly" clad women.

And above all, sex work is emotional labor. While for literal prostitutes the bare minimum can be entirely mechanical, even then it requires a certain level of performative (emotional) intimacy. The more abstract the sex work is (dancing, cam shows, financial domination, etc) this aspect remains the same and it is exhausting work that can take a serious toll. In a way it's more mentally exhausting than other forms of work because it requires a constant denial of one's self in order to perform as an abstract fantasy desired by those who pay for it.

I'd even go so far as to say that all service work (especially in US-style "the customer is always right" jobs that penalize employees for "not smiling enough") is part of this spectrum and in many cases even non-service work involves performing this role towards the owner of the company or upper management (after all, every company wants to hire prospects who are "enthusiastic about the product" or "fanatic about delivering user experience" or other nonsense claims that signify loyalty and submission).

This is also why so many streamers fail: if you want to be a gaming streamer or a politics streamer or a beauty streamer or whatever, fine, but being good at the thing (gaming, politics, makeup) isn't enough. The core skill you must build is engaging, building and handling an audience. This skill is absolutely transferrable (unlike, say, being really good at Counter Strike, unless you want to switch tracks to professional gaming) but it's far less well-understood and much harder to judge as an amateur. Some streamers seemingly just "luck into" popularity but they still end up having to either learn or hire someone to do "community management" and "moderation" and even then their popularity hinges on their ability to perform the character that made them popular and failing to evolve OR maintain that character can mean sudden death.

Technical note out of purely personal experience: platforms suck at managing subscriptions (ux-wise) when you’re a viewer, so I unsubscribe if there is no content for a while.

I don’t do this for websites. I have hundreds of bookmarks which I reorganize a couple of times a year and may visit when I have nothing to do. But I never had hundreds of e.g. youtube subscriptions, because youtube ui just sucks. I cannot categorize them. I cannot pin them down in the list that they bs_sort() randomly so you can’t find things. It’s basically useless and only serves as a pile.

And if you dare to subscribe-as-a-bookmark, it will pile up your feed as well.

No surprise then I keep it at 15 channels max and remove those that I have no reason to visit in just a week. I watch some of the top streamers / video makers occasionally without subscribing, because of that. I just remember them and watch when I remember to. But when you’re smaller than 0.01% it means you basically lost a viewer.

This doesn’t apply to twitch exactly, but still in the same category. I’ve visited it for a while and left because it sucks even more as a webapp.

YouTube supports RSS for both Channels and Playlists[1] , so my YouTube "subscriptions" are all just RSS subscriptions. I don't ever even visit YouTube while signed in. You can also create subscriptions for Twitch VODs via the unofficial twitchrss.appspot.com

This then lets me organize my "subscriptions" in a nice UI :)

[1] - They used to, but AFAICT no longer support setting a urlparam of order when fetching the RSS feed of a playlist. For some playlists the natural ordering is chronological, but for some it is reverse chronological, so RSS only works for "half" of playlists...

I concur. Twitch and Youtube subscription management is pretty garbage. I end up relying more on 'most current viewers' for my Twitch list than I'd like just because trying to manage it any other way is too much of a hassle.

Every once in a while I unsubscribe from a bunch of people I normally would stay subscribed to, just to pare that list down and make some of the lower viewer streamers (that I'm still interested in) more likely to show up in the list, but that's a crap way to do it.

I can't even log _in_ to begin with. I have an account but every password that I try doesn't work. Username retrieval emails work but password reset messages never arrive in my inbox. Support representatives ignore this issue when I tell them about it and instead say that they "can't verify [my] ownership of the account" and refuse to help even though I email them back from the address that's on my account. They also say that if I don't login that my username might maybe possibly hopefully someday be released for use after an indeterminate period of time.

On the flip side I suppose that this saves me from the plight described in this article, though I somehow doubt that anybody would want to watch me produce my cover band practice sessions or write random side projects anyhow :-P

You've probably fallen into the black hole of the fraud department. The only way to get out of that, with most big companies, is to get the personal attention of an executive.

I can't log in to my PayPal account with similar behavior. I guess that might be why, especially when I received some unsolicited payments I never cashed in.

I have a hotmail account from the nineties and some emails just don't get delivered to it anymore. It's happened with several companies that I do business with. I've had to get them on the phone and change my email to a gmail account, but some you can't get them on the phone.

If I use the "forgot [my] username" function and enter my email address then I get a message in my inbox that says that I own the account in question. It's absolutely maddening.

Can you find the initial email? As that still sounds like it could be a security practice. Or what happens if you try to make a new account with the email?

Sips (of the Yogscast) is smaller compared to the today’s big names and he has no problem taking vacations or impromptu days off any time he needs to do something else.

And he always said that Twitch ended up working far better for him than YouTube ever did, since the income is more predictable, he doesn’t need to care about editing the videos or worry about demonetization.

Of course on the other end of the scale are people like Amouranth, who IIRC is not only the most watched female streamer, but also the one who streamed the most hours (at least in some given year).

So perhaps it depends whether one treats it as a job - good paying, but a normal job nonetheless - or as an opportunity to grind for a chance to earn tens of millions of dollars.

I have a few hundred thousand followers on tiktok, and was posting a video every day. It was hard to keep up and then I just stopped. Traffic dropped way off and hasn't recovered when I do post something.

Not being able to take a day off sounds horrible. Is it possible to pre-record and queue up videos or is it always live?

It is always live, there have been doubts, but a common joke/trope is a streamer calling out a specific chatter by name saying "is this prerecorded? no _name_, this is not prerecorded".

Queuing videos is okay and when streamers have to take a break to fix equipment or use the restroom they keep it up. As long as chat is actively moderated, you can do anything for the most part. I don't know if there's an unwritten rule about having to show yourself on screen at least once though. I imagine a lot less people would show up or stay if they couldn't see hear or see the streamer.

There's things like study with me streamers where they just read a book or study in front of the camera. There's even sleeping streams where some people sleep on camera. Sometimes they are doing a 24/48 hours stream challenge.

Ludwig, a very well respected creator, did a subathon where each new sub extended the time he continuously streamed by a little. He ended up streaming for 30 days.

I think prerecorded is the only real taboo culturally. There's streams where a creator will say, chat send me things to watch, and they just watch with chat for hours and react. There was a time during which streamers were pushing the limits of DMCA striking and some streams watched seasons of master chef and other popular shows on stream.

This article does a poor job exploring the nuance of the situation or even the diversity of content people make.

>did a subathon where each new sub extended the time he continuously streamed by a little. He ended up streaming for 30 days.

This isn't really an achievement on its own when many big names stream every day anyway, and they draw huge amounts of money playing into psychological factors to do it. Subathons are predominantly just ways to prey on people's weaknesses and use hype to get more money and exposure. The quality of the streamer also suffers massively.

And that really shows the heart of it all: dark patterns, softcore sexual pandering and 'metas' have a strong hold on the market, leaving very little for what streaming used to be 10-15 years ago. Twitch being the biggest and having strong reinforcing mechanics doesn't help, either.

Being able to interact in real-time is half the attraction, so pre-recorded streams don't get nearly as many viewers.

It seems like operating a channel shared between a few people might alleviate some of these concerns.

Yeah then the viewer count will inevitably be a lot higher when Person A is on vs when Person B is on so there are disagreements about how much to get paid and what sponsors to take etc. I've never seen this really work on Twitch. People generally watch a specific channel for a specific person. If that person isn't on they watch a different streamer

There is an example of a shared channel, BotezLive is a channel where Alexandra Botez Woman FIDE Master and Andrea Botez, sisters, make chess content. They are usually making content together though.

Yeah, I think this would work better if they usually work as a group but sometimes someone takes a break.

Always remember: fan is short for fanatic

I'm not sure why that's worth remembering, outside of interest in etymology, considering how frequently fan is used to mean "someone who likes something" rather than fanatic.

Framing this like creators don't have a choice is a bad generalization and equally as bad as saying they have the power to do anything they want.

There's two situation that really highlight the uniqueness of the relationship between the audience and creators. One is the category of streamers that has been on the rise in the last few years, IRL streaming. The other is the concept of a sub-a-thon. I am surprised neither were brought up in the article.

For most people, being able to have a strong boundary between work and free time is necessary for the sake of mental health. My favorite content creator is an IRL streamer. She takes a camera out with her during the day and visits different destinations, usually spending a couple of weeks at locations. The amount of hours a streamer requires is pre determined by a contract with Twitch. There have been days where she leaves for the day at 4 pm and goes around places, like in a travel show, but essentially every minute is live streamed with an interactive chat. Some streamers talk to the entity that is chat like they would a friend, asking "am I going the right way?". The continued amount of time spent experiencing things together blur the line for whether it's actually parasocial. It's one thing when you hear a podcast and then imagine you are friends with a creator because you know a little about their history. It doesn't feel as one sided when the creator reads out and responds to your messages frequently, enough to where the creator remembers and requests for viewers by screen name.

This creator also has a discord and interacts there very frequently and has watch parties. There's channels to share food you ate or stream ideas. The creator engages with the discord like anyone else would, they also happen to be the content people make memes with. There's some validation they feel from their community, and the thing is most times the community responds to fishing for validation by being contrarian regardless of context. I enjoy this streamer's content because it feels like the way in which we process the world is similar. This understanding came from the creator being vulnerable with chat and opening up in a way you would a friend. Some creators do put on a persona, but some don't.

In that situation I don't know what it would mean to log off. I didn't understand initially, but it's clear that leans on their community strongly. The creator feels a sense of obligation to finish hours, but they seem to appreciate and enjoy their community and not feel pressured by it. This creator feels no guilt about delaying a stream or not follow her own schedule she has previously shared with chat. And I am glad, because I think it's a good way to be healthy around not having people build up expectations. A part of the interaction is still transactional, and with part of the twitch audience still maturing emotionally, donating or buying a monthly subscription to a creator can make people feel some ownership or entitlement.

When creators frame it as, only spend money on me if you have money to spend, and the money will not change how I see you, keep away building unhealthy dependencies. Not all creators can maintain that kind of distance, and sometimes there's nothing the creator creator can do.

Amourath, in the last week, received a gift of 70,000$ in cash along with some self defense tools and a prepaid bodyguard service. Unlike most similar stories, that's where the story ends. There were no conditions or strings attached to gift. I don't know how many people there are in the world that can drop 70,000$ on a person without it affecting their life. In this situation, I am not sure what the creator can do, it's not something she requested or wanted. She said she was grateful and hasn't contacted the person although they did leave a number, there was nothing dangerous about accepting the gift that would dox her. She wasn't even sure if she wanted to keep the gifts when she initially received it. The only reasonable expectation of Amourath is that she refuse gifts if she finds out it came at an unreasonable cost to the person who chose to gift.

The other thing is subathons and the apparent cause of burnout. Subathons are how they sound, a creator sets a time to extend their stream by for every new subscriber they get. Usually it's a few seconds. Ludwig, a very prolific creator ended up streaming for 30 days straight. He netted 1.4 million$, a large amount of which he donated or paid his team of moderators who worked to manage chat during the subathon. He even slept on stream, his moderators would make content for chat to engage with during that time.

Ludwig has spoken about how fondly he enjoyed doing it, he didn't really need the money and he potentially would have done it for longer if it wouldn't lead to negative consequences with friends and family. He is successful because he loves the work.

Content creation is often a lot of work for very little rewards, the people who end up successful are the one who would have done it for free. Burnout isn't necessarily about the platform itself. Any situation where a passionate person can obsess about their craft or where it can get repetitive can lead to burnout. The creator takes a break by making content or a company or doing work somewhere else. It very much depends on the person, and it can be argued that there isn't a great support system for content creators right now, but it's not a Twitch issue since most creators make their own schedule.

Twitch is absolutely is real work. Successful creators I've met usually end up apologizing if we spend more than a couple hours together saying, "sorry, it's hard to turn my brain off from thinking about new ideas".

Taking these things together with the facts in the article lead to a differnt final conclusion, to me.

People realize they are wasting their time by watching people that are wasting their time right? right??

Most activity on MSM could be summarized this way but its usual patronage may be too far gone to notice.

And too far gone feel the days I thought the internet would elevate most people's minds, but commerce is commerce and consoomers are consoomers and somehow this all feels so inevitable it's best to shut it out.

Life is about the activities you "waste" your time with