Sure, just stop showing compassion for the average Russian families worried about their sons because their authoritarian leader started a war he cannot win with an army that is at least allowed to tale out their frustration on civilians.
Average citizens and grunts on different sides of a war have more in common with each other then they have with their respective leadership.
That begs the question of who is and who isn't responsible for their state's actions. The US killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians in a completely pointless war in 2003. Despite having started the war, the American people reelected their war criminal president in 2004. Are those who voted for George Bush without blame? What about Israelis who for decades have supported parties that prolong the illegal occupation of Palestine? Or Turks, who elected and Islamist fascist as president? If Ukraine wins the war and demands reparations from Russia for all damage it caused, who should pay it? Average Russian families?
Some are brainwashed. Some are fully on board, without any need for brainwashing.
Most are on the path of least resistance, not asking many questions as long as life is ~comfortable, or at least not getting dramatically worse. They kind of like the strongman. And there is always alcohol/drugs.
Added: In general I agree with varjag's assessment. The average Russian family supports Putin.
Summed up nicely. But now they will get some sobering up.
I have little faith that Russian society is going to come out of this war any better. It's a cultural thing. Germany had to be razed to the ground by am external force and millions of Germans had to be killed for the society to ditch militarism. And Russia has nukes.
Yeah exactly. You're the only one inmune to propaganda, it's everyone else who is brainwashed. It obviously couldn't happen to you since you're smart, and "normal Russian people" aren't.
I guess the question comes down to who is responsible for one's own sanity. The individual, the community, or the state? Anyways, I would argue that attributing Putin's popularity to brainwashing is not that solid of a theory. Perhaps Putin is popular because Russians want a strong leader in the wake of previous leader who were seen as weak.
We can't know without better introspection and data to ground the discussion.
There have been plenty of protests across Russia since this announcement, as well as since the invasion of Ukraine began in earnest earlier this year. It is also illegal to speak out against the war in Russia, so that statistic is likely specious at best.
Given that, are you arguing that you are holding every Russian citizen accountable for the sins of the ruling class? Do you believe in nuance?
Well over 70% of the population supports the invasion.
And the time to protest was over the last 20 years. It wasn't always impossible, it just became gradually more difficult over the years. But few people cared, because it was more convenient to live in a Powerful Empire.
I don’t believe that’s what he said. He basically just pointed out that we should be careful not to speak of the Russian people as if they’re all innocent prisoners of this evil regime. It’s not a very accurate representation either.
I’m quoting him: “we are talking about the nation that invaded another country, targeting civilians, raping and murdering”. Did Putin himself do all of this? No, it was a significant part of the Russian people that did. An even larger portion of the Russian people supported these crimes. They (the people referred to here) are not innocent.
Edit: Just as a disclaimer, I do question the 70% stat. I don’t know where that comes from or if such a number can even be reliably acquired given the censorship that’s going on in Russia.
> Just as a disclaimer, I do question the 70% stat. I don’t know where that comes from or if such a number can even be reliably acquired given the censorship that’s going on in Russia.
"Among television viewers—mostly people over 60—more than 80% support the war. Among 18- to 24-year-olds, who get their news from the internet, it is less than half."
I mean, the whole reason they're there is because of him.
>No, it was a significant part of the Russian people that did.
Not really:
>Prewar intelligence analyses said Russia had deployed around a total of 170,000 troops to the regions near Ukraine’s borders in the run-up to the invasion.[1]
>The current population of the Russian Federation is 146,072,977 as of Wednesday, September 21, 2022, based on Worldometer elaboration of the latest United Nations data.[2]
Less than 1% of Russian citizens were at Ukraine's border in February. Now we're hearing of a need for an additional 300,000 for a total of 470,000, or still less than 1% of Russian citizens. I find it incredibly difficult to call that a "significant part of the Russian people".
>An even larger portion of the Russian people supported these crimes.
Again, it is illegal to speak out against this invasion, and the nation has been under incredibly increasing levels of oppression for decades. While I don't doubt that a portion of Russian citizens supports it, I can't take those polls at face value.
You’re making some good points. But I think the main argument still stands, that we should be careful not to view the Russian people as being all victims.
I concede to what you’re saying about the censorship. However, do note that this can act as an argument for his point as well.
>But I think the main argument still stands, that we should be careful not to view the Russian people as being all victims.
This is a fair point. I didn't intend to paint all Russian citizens so broadly, and I could've done more to drive that point home than the single sentence at the end of my last post.
>However, do note that this can act as an argument for his point as well.
>If Donald Trump becomes US president again, then, unless we take action (dissolve the union?) then we'll all be complicit, even those that voted against.
You and I seem to share similar political views in that area, but this is fundamentally untrue.
>If I stand by in my liberal enclave, paying big national taxes, then, I'll be individually responsible.
As a US citizen who has felt uneasy about knowing where my taxes have gone both at the state and federal levels, I fully understand that I am not to blame. Neither are you.
>Unless they're actively sabotaging they are complicit.
I get the feeling that you don't really know what it's like to live within a regime as oppressive as Russia. Neither do I, but because of that ignorance I'm not going to pretend that it's fair to hold those citizens accountable.
Who cares if they used the "correct" words? They were not joking and also not generalizing and condemning an entire segment of humanity. If you would call every German in the 40's a nazi or every Afghani in the early 2000's a terrorist, then it is you who is incorrect and untruthful.
Plenty of us do, and did during the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan. That didn’t stop those invasions just like Russian citizens protesting the current war won’t stop Putin’s doubling down. To assume everyone in Russia toes the party line is unfair to them.
Assuming you weren't alive when those decisions were made or did not support them at the time, I don't see why you should. You have little control over the actions of your nation-state today, you had none when those atrocities were being committed. The vast majority of the people alive today bear no responsibility whatsoever for the events of WWII
> Putin didn't appear in vacuum. He is a product of his society. Every Russian out there is to blame for this war.
I agree with first 2 sentences but have to correct: his societies were outlaws and KGB (legal outlaws) which is far from representing the whole population.
Putin's both parents worked at a factory which means no parents most of the time, the daycare was provided by the "criminal elements" [sic] on the streets, he stated that he wanted to join KGB during childhood, he didn't pass entry exams as he entered university as a sportsman and became KGB's agent (not an employee), his job was KGB then after the fall of Berlin Wall he worked for rector of his uni for a brief time and after that for a docent who went into politics and happened to become the mayor of now St. Petersburg in 1991...
Looking at the absolute dearth of volunteers for the slaughter, the support for invasion seems to be rather lukewarm.
Also, I read that doing polls in RU is now a challenge, because only a tiny minority of respondents won't hang up immediately when asked about something sensitive. So the numbers may be total garbage.
I don't doubt that there are a lot of avid supporters, but I doubt the 70 per cent figure.
As someone else noted, that statistic may be inflated as it is illegal to speak out against the war there, but the 30% of russians are decent enough and deserve sympathy.
Also, it's fine to wish the Russian soldiers actually fighting ill but even people with bad opinions deserve life, to some degree. Making many of them fight likely to their death is horrible and you shouldn't wish it on anyone.
I know that collective gilt is en vogue right now, but that's a very narrow way to see a country which population hasn't had much of a say on public policies for centuries. The logical consequence of collective guilt is war crimes and genocides.
Not sure if you're naive or a troll, but i'll assume the better, as per site rules.
So, what makes you think that a poll in a country like Russia will get honest answers? Currently speaking out against the war there is a jailable offense.
Support for the war is at 70% - because 70% of Russians think Ukraine is mass-murdering the own citizens and Hitler has resurrected from his grave to run Ukraine himself.
I don't think that's necessarily saying that Russians in general are any more or less awful than the rest of the global population - just that their information sources are terrible.
As Ice-T remarked on gang wars... Don't hate the player, hate the game.
Average Russian is a simple guy. When he sees SS emblem who were known to kill his relatives 80 years ago, he does not give a benefit of doubt. He just recognises fascists and acts accordingly. I understand that civilised Europeans can see it as a little national colourite of a newfounded Ukrainian nation. Russians are not very inclusive in that regard.
> He just recognises fascists and acts accordingly.
So ... the average Russian is now going to kill Putin because his Wagner-buddy is a Neo-Nazi and so are (at least some of) his troops? I won't hold my breath, but good luck.
Does not look like credible proof. But Utkin does not have any kind of people's support, that's for sure. AFAIK the entire existence of Wagner army is questionable, as it was never admitted by officials. It might be another ukrainian myth.
What? Wagner PMC "might be another Ukrainian myth"?
So immediately after the 2014 invasion, they've started to create this giant myth that doesn't exist but is seen fighting wherever Russia fights, just not in Russian uniforms, complete with recruitment talks and all that? What's next, Russia doesn't even exist and is just a myth invented by the US military-industrial complex to justify defense spending?
Oh, I actually received such a call from a government-funded polling agency while still in Russia. Told them everything I think about it (which was still somewhat difficult despite the fact that the actual risks were low), but some questions were tricky to answer in such a way that actually reflects my opinion, e.g. something like "do you think our army is succeeding in defeating the nationalist batallions in Ukraine and protecting the people of Donbas?" Yes/No/Refuse_answer
> currently support for the invasion hovers around 70% on average
I've never believed this number. Yes, I have many friends who have been brainwashed by the state media and they really believe that Ukrainians had been killing Russians in Ukraine so Putin had no choice, but most realize this is plan horseshit and just want to live in peace.
> and where currently support for the invasion hovers around 70% on average
The Russian government / Putin isn't exactly known for tolerating political dissent. Is it really surprising that citizens say they support the state when asked by some random pollster, let alone someone from state-affiliated media?
