To be honest, the doomsdays scenario you outline is ridiculous to me. It's so far removed from the current culture at Google. I think I'd be long gone by the time such things were taking place.

It's also worth noting that the majority of Google shareholders are Google employees (including me), and that the managers in Engineering at Google are all engineers. You should also investigate the conditions of Google's IPO - the shareholders don't have a lot of influence at Google.

Of course, these things can all change. But like I said, it's great the way it is now and I'm having a blast. If it changes, I've got plenty of cash and experience under my belt to get started on something else. There is no downside here.

(Addendum: If they cancelled my project (Go) I'd just quit and work on the code from somewhere else. That's the benefit of working on a project where all your contributions are BSD-licensed. ;-)

The premise of my original post is exactly what I wrote, "Every job is going to suck if you're an engineer for hire." I didn't say every job sucks now, just that the natural tendency is for forces to work against any good working life for rank and file engineers who stay in the same job.

Things are going good for you right now? Great, you're an outlier working at Google. The vast majority of working engineers more than probably face declining benefits, compensation, and working conditions in the future without changing jobs. For example, most companies don't offer cost of living salary adjustments even though company revenues would presumably increase by a similar amount. My point is simply that such job changes are costly in time, money, and effort and can be avoided by working for oneself and that it is a good and desirable goal that engineers should pursue.

And that's where I disagree. When I said there's no downside, I meant it. Changing jobs has been only an enriching experience for me. As long as you're savvy with your finances, it's no sweat to find another job. On the other hand, if I ran a business that started to tank, I think that would be far more stressful (thankfully mine never did).

I agree that running your own business should be a desirable goal, but I think you can make a great living working as an employee. It depends a lot on your interests. Both approaches have their benefits and pitfalls.

this is only true, if you don't value your own contributions. It is on your own onus to value your contributions. Say google stopped the free food - you are now free to leave google, or you are free to ask for the equivelent in added salary to cover the food.

Why would you not negotiate it? why would an engineer, who have valuable contribution, be taken advantage of by others? The only reason I can think of is, the person didn't care enough to value their own contribution and hence, get stepped over.

Which is exactly what I argued was the only recourse an engineer has, so I agree.

> or you are free to ask for the equivelent in added salary to cover the food.

That's extremely unrealistic. You don't understand that the hypothetical food was cut to save money. If they just pay out that money as cash, the company won't save anything.

> Why would you not negotiate it?

It requires two willing parties to negotiate. Employment terms are not negotiable once the job starts. What exactly do you think will happen if you say "give me my food back, or more money, or I quit." In the best case you will be laughed at and ignored, in the worst case you will start being pushed out of the company. Everyone is replaceable.

There are risks in everything. Running your own business is inherently more risky than working a salary position but the rewards can be higher. And really, either will suck at some point. There is a reason it's called work.

You are assuming the business is consulting/freelancing, which in my opinion is just as bad as a regular job.

"either will suck at some point"

I would much rather slave 12 hours a day for something that might make me rich rather than my boss.

The problem is that you're presenting a false dichotomy. Either work for yourself or slave 12+ hours/day for someone else. There are plenty of good 8 hour/day engineering jobs that pay well and have interesting problems to solve. If 'might make [you] rich' is why you want to do a startup you're probably going to be disappointed. The odds are stacked against you and the risks are high. If you're really good at tech, most of the top companies pay well and give job stability which is what many people want.

If I can't take vacations whenever I want or have the freedom to come and go as I please, I consider it slaving away. No job will allow you to do this.

"I wasn't assuming consulting/freelancing at all. If you're going to run a business you're going to have customers. These customers need support and can be much worse than anyone you deal with in office politics."

Possibly. However, you can always fire customers. I know I have. Also, when you are consulting, it's just like having another boss. They tell you exactly what needs to be done. I ran a consulting company a couple of years ago..and I won't do it again.

When you are running a product/service, you may take customer input, but you make the final decisions. That's the difference.

"If 'might make [you] rich' is why you want to do a startup you're probably going to be disappointed."

I'm already making more than I was making at a job. I've only been running my company for a year. The reason many startups don't succeed is because many of them don't think about how to monetize it. Making money is almost always my first priority. If I know it's going to be difficult to monetize an idea, I usually move on. Another problem is that many people think the answer to success is getting bought by a larger company or getting VC.

"The odds are stacked against you and the risks are high. If you're really good at tech, most of the top companies pay well and give job stability which is what many people want."

High risk = High reward. Most companies aren't as stable as you might think. At least with my own company, I make the choices that directly lead to my success or failure. I've worked for too many companies that made ridiculous decisions that led to major profit loss or huge layoffs..and there was nothing I could do about it.

Not to be a 'me too' with the above poster, but my job allows this also. I'm trying to to run my own business because I think it will be a fun and interesting challenge. I have no illusions though. I will likely work more and make less when/if I ever make the break to being on my own.

My job does.

No place is just ice cream all day long, there's some dog food too sometimes, sometimes there's stress.

I've been doing software in various positions (some big companies, some startups) for over 20 years, and for the most part I love it... I love my current job. Nobody asks for overtime.

Well, the premise of the submission pretty much refutes that unless you call loud outbursts, threats, reduced equity, and demotions "well treated".

>I've been doing software in various positions (some big companies, some startups) for over 20 years

Oh, why'd you switch companies if everything was so great?

>I love my current job

I'm sure everyone at Zynga loved their job at some point as well. And, while one example doesn't prove my point that every engineering job will eventually suck, it is a pattern that is repeated.

I know plenty of engineers that aren't capable of owning a business. They need to be told what to do..otherwise nothing will get done. Owning a business requires self-discipline and many people just don't have it.

"but so are most successful businesses"

It depends on how you define success. There are plenty of businesses that make enough in profit to give the owner a good lifestyle (as good or better than working for someone else).

I've worked for other people for the 15 years (I quit a little over 2 years ago to start my own company). In every single job, no matter how good it seems like in the beginning, it eventually turned bad.

You will almost always be asked to work on something you don't like, work extra hours, or get denied vacation time. I got tired of it. I got tired of being forced to ask someone if I can take a day off of work to go to the doctor or visit family after Christmas. It felt just like when I was in school. I suppose school is good training for real life.

As a business owner, I have more freedom. There are many times when I don't want to work on something, but it's still enjoyable to me because it's mine. Life also seems to pass by much slower. I don't feel like I'm wasting my life.

The downside is that I have more responsibility (if you can call it a downside). I can't just go into work and collect my check at the end of the month.

And running your own business won't suck? Everything can and will turn to shit eventually. That's a fact of life, so be adaptable and be prepared to do many things. But running your own business is not the only way to be happy as an engineer.

Companies are made up of people. They don't always do the smart thing.

Please keep it classy here. I worked for startups that were acquired.

How about you?