Ask before you need it. "Hey Tina, if I were to move jobs in couple years, would you be a reference?"

But I also wonder why you care - is it so that you can keep your job if you don't get the new offer?

"is it so that you can keep your job if you don't get the new offer?" yes, exactly

That’s fair. Have you directly observed anything that makes you think asking for a referral might get you fired?

If your current company is just a normal company, it might ruffle some feathers. But that company needs you to do the work, so most of the time they’re not just going to fire you for looking somewhere else.

Can you ask someone outside the company for a referral? Most of the time it’s not a key factor in getting hired - they’re just checking a box.

You can't. At least in infosec the managers at the place you are applying to will call up your current manager and as many of your coworkers as they can about you. The last place I interviewed at, even before the interview random coworkers were asking me about it.

In tech in general "you have no privacy" especially applies to job hunting.

It is dirty and trashy but apparently only some states have it illegal.

References are for HR, hiring managers and back-channel chatter are something else. YMMV.

> You can't. At least in infosec the managers at the place you are applying to will call up your current manager and as many of your coworkers as they can about you. The last place I interviewed at, even before the interview random coworkers were asking me about it.

That seems extremely unprofessional. I wouldn't work at such a place. It seems like a tactic to force you to move.

Yeah, unprofessional for sure, to be fair only some hiring managers do this but I found out it is best to assume they will. Not just to force a move but so when their guys are trying to leave they get the favor returned by others calling them. One time, my boss grilled me about what I put on the resume and then when I accepted he kept asking if I have news for him (hardly ever talk to him before lol), and a coworker asked me about my move the next day (different role than what i mentioned earlier). Scummy trashy behavior, I wonder why they respect themselves so little.

The hard case is moving from your first IT job.

Look for references outside your employer.

Way back in the mainframe days, we were running compiles and tests down the street at another insurance company. Their data center manager gave me a reference.

Customers and vendors are good.

Once in your second job, you can use previous managers and co-workers.

There were a few employers that called me back to help out in my spare time which I was happy to do.

Only ask people to be your reference if you would trust them with things like not alerting management.

I don’t use my current manager as a reference, only former managers.

i quit a fortune 50 without notice. they kept paying me for a month to try to get me to come back. never went back. all of my managers still gave me a good reference at my next fortune 50. i have fuck you money, so, ymmv.