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The attitude presented here is very fatalist and not aligned with reality. The behaviours we engage in are as important for their direct outcomes as they are for their signals and influence. Recycling an individual plastic bottle may do very little to benefit the world directly by keeping that plastic out of landfill, but the influence the act of recycling has on your own behaviour and the behaviour of others can bubble up to bring about real change.

Progress comes about when people push for change, when they act according to their principles and desire, when people lead the way. If you sincerely care about a cause, if something really matters to you, then you should be willing to expend some of your energy on it.

You can pick any example of human progress and apply your line of thinking to it. “Why should I bother washing my hands when nobody else is?” “Why should I stop painting my house with lead when everybody else is painting their house with lead?”

Collective accountability doesn’t mean everybody takes accountability, collective accountability means everyone has accountability. You choose whether or not to take accountability. You’re choosing not to, so be it, but own that decision, don’t pretend that it’s the fault of someone else.




>> The attitude presented here is very fatalist and not aligned with reality.

No offense to you but Europe is in the middle of a heat wave currently and temperature records have been broken fairly recently. So no, I am not fatalist, I am a realist. I call a spade a spade. It is not debatable that all the issues that we are having now have been known for a least a few decades.

So this isn't a lack of foresight or that we were not warned. We knew and did nothing or almost nothing.

>> but the influence the act of recycling has on your own behavior and the behavior of others can bubble up to bring about real change.

Unless you can back up that claim, then there is nothing to say. Plastic recycling does not work because it is uneconomical. It is cheaper to produce plastic than to recycle it. Until that changes then plastic recycling is a waste of time and simply a feel good act that has been implemented to make people feel like they had an impact.

>> if you sincerely care about a cause, if something really matters to you, then you should be willing to expend some of your energy on it.

I care about the cause whether you think I am or not. What I don't care about is pretending to do something when we are not actually doing anything.

>> You can pick any example of human progress and apply your line of thinking to it. “Why should I bother washing my hands when nobody else is?"

I bother to wash my hands because it has an tangible effect on my quality of life by keeping me and my family safe from diseases.

Recycling a plastic bottle or taking a shorter shower is not going to save the world when governments around the world are dragging their feet and the biggest polluters out there can pollute as much as they want without consequences.

>> You’re choosing not to, so be it, but own that decision, don’t pretend that it’s the fault of someone else.

Give me a cheap electric car that I can buy second hand and make it easy to charge it at night and then I'll drive an EV. Unless you live in Norway or unless you own your own home, there is no way for someone who rents to charge their car on the street if they don't have a garage.

Force energy companies to sell a minimum at least 50% renewable energy and I'll be buying it.

Force the city councils around the world to improve the reliability and availability of public transport even on the country side, and I'll stop using my car.

This is a give and take situation. At the moment most citizens in the developed world are being hammered by inflation and a rising cost of living. Yet according to you, it seems only fair that we should shoulder most of the cost of the energy transition.

I don't think that's fair. Not when the various governments around the world are still subsidizing petroleum products, not when shipping companies can use the dirtiest fuel around to power their ships.

If you want people to change and people to make better decisions for the planet, people need to have options. At the moment those options are few and far between and mostly onerous.

Not every one can afford a model 3!


If you’re unwilling to make any sacrifice for the greater good then you’re asking the world to serve perfection to you without any effort on your part.

You can’t get a cheap second hand electric car that you can charge for free at your home? That’s unfortunate, but there are other options beyond “well whatever I’ll just get a petrol car then”.

Your government represents you, your government is not a nebulous self-sufficient entity that exists independent of you and your fellow country people. If your government isn’t doing enough, it’s up to you and the people around you to be a force for good, to do everything in your power to create change. Even if sometimes it feels fruitless, do it. Be the best you can be.

Also, the idea that you and I are shouldering the cost of the energy transition is completely ignorant to the realities of the world. The catastrophic disasters that we, the developed world, have created, are an order of magnitude worse in the global south than they will ever be for us. People are dying every day because of our choice to use fossil fuels, we are destroying the planet, your increased cost of living or exposure to the heat doesn’t come close to the suffering of people who are paying the price for our choices. Yes, this heatwave in Europe is painful, as is the cost of living going up, but perspective is important.


You can't fix systemic issues with individual choices.

That requires regulation and a system that can carry out those regulations.


Finish the thought, where do regulations come from?


From government intervention.


You are misinterpreting what I said but I am not going to repeat myself to reiterate my views which I have expressed pretty clearly in my previous response to you.

You completely forgot to address all my rebuttals to your arguments so I will chose to believe that you are arguing in bad faith at this point.

For the sake of closure let me respond to you and then we can leave it at that:

>> If you’re unwilling to make any sacrifice for the greater good then you’re asking the world to serve perfection to you without any effort on your part.

this is a complete misinterpretation of my argument. I am willing to make sacrifices that have an impact. Taking a shorter shower or recycling a plastic bottle will not change a thing until the biggest polluters are actually doing their part.

I am not sure how else I can explain it. It stands to reason that it makes more sense to tackle the biggest issues first, that is the shipping industry, the petroleum industry, the airlines and so on before asking people to sacrifice some of their little comforts like having a long shower or not drinking from plastic cups.

>> You can’t get a cheap second hand electric car that you can charge for free at your home? That’s unfortunate, but there are other options beyond “well whatever I’ll just get a petrol car then”.

Please do tell what those options are?

And while you are at it why don't you tell that to someone living on minimum wage on the country side where there is no public transport. And don't tell me that they should just move to a city when the cost of housing as increased by 30% within the last 2 years.

Once again, what's your proposal? Should they just bike or walk for 20km maybe twice a day?

You do realize that not everyone can afford a new or second hand electric car right?

>> Your government represents you, your government is not a nebulous self-sufficient entity that exists independent of you and your fellow country people. If your government isn’t doing enough, it’s up to you and the people around you to be a force for good, to do everything in your power to create change. Even if sometimes it feels fruitless, do it. Be the best you can be.

So I should spend my days shouting into the void and hoping that someone somewhere listens to me and my fellow citizens? Well, guess what? I have been there and done that. Unfortunately some of us don't have the luxury or the time to go on a crusade. I have many things going on in my life and time spent away from my family is not a luxury I can afford.

>> Also, the idea that you and I are shouldering the cost of the energy transition is completely ignorant to the realities of the world.

I definitely am shouldering the cost through higher taxes on petroleum products. Higher taxes on energy and higher cost of food and energy in general.

>> The catastrophic disasters that we, the developed world, have created, are an order of magnitude worse in the global south than they will ever be for us.

I never said that the developing countries will not have to bear the consequences of our actions. In fact I hope they realize that the developed countries have screwed them.

>> People are dying every day because of our choice to use fossil fuels, we are destroying the planet, your increased cost of living or exposure to the heat doesn’t come close to the suffering of people who are paying the price for our choices.

I agree with you. But where I disagree is that we have bigger fish to fry than worry if Joe blow's shower was 5 minutes long or 3 minutes.

It's like you are coming back from work or from running an errand and discover that your house is on fire. You don't stop by the mail box to check if your magazine has arrived, no, you run and grab a bucket or a hose and you try to extinguish the flames by yourself before the firefighters arrive.

My problem is that the current governments are too concerned about my meat consumption or the model of my car or the amount of plastic bottles I recycle while carefully avoiding rocking the boat with the big corporations that are responsible for orders of magnitude more pollution than than I could ever produce in 100 lifetimes. That's my problem.

If you choose to interpret this as me not caring then feel free to do so but you will have misunderstood my argument.

>> Yes, this heatwave in Europe is painful, as is the cost of living going up, but perspective is important.

Perspective is a luxury that few can afford. What good is perspective when you can't afford your rent or to heat your house in winter or when you can't feed your kids because the price of food has climbed 20% during the last 12 months?

Forgive me for saying so but from your responses you talk like someone who has a comfortable lifestyle. If that is the case then good for you but just so you know your point of view on these issues seems highly skewed and not representative of the majority of the population that is currently struggling to keep their heads above water in light of the rising cost of living.

On that note I wish you a good day.


You're a software engineer, you're in the upper echelon of the upper echelon, please don't try and appeal to some unearned sympathy. I am arguing that you, as a person of privilege, should do the best you can do to bring about the world you want to see. I would not have the same argument with a person living in poverty, I would not argue that someone struggling to survive should be concerned about their carbon footprint. Most people in Europe are not struggling to survive by global standards.

The obligation you and I have is very different, because you and I (and the others on this website) are in a position of privilege, we are in a position of power, our actions influence the lives of the less fortunate. "The big corporations" are just a convenient get out for not taking responsibility for your own choices. Who do the big corporations answer to? Their customers. Who are their customers? You and I. If you choose to purchase petrol, you're creating demand. If you choose to purchase food grown overseas, you're creating demand for fossil fuels to be burned to transport the food thousands of miles. Are there ~8,000 planes in the sky right now because corporations are evil, or because there's 8,000 planes worth of demand for planes to be in the air? If everyone chose to fly half as much, how many planes would there be in the sky?

You're trying to shift blame to boogeymen, you're trying to argue that "developed countries" and "big corporations" are to blame without acknowledging that you're a part of a developed country, you're a customer of big corporations, you are creating demand. Every time you burn fossil fuels for convenience, you're choosing to pay for your convenience with the suffering of the people in the global south impacted by fossil fuels.

My point is not that you must be perfect, not that you must live a saintly life with no worldly pleasures, my point is that you should do your best, and that if we all do our best, it will have a meaningful impact on the world around us. If what you're doing today is your best, so be it, but from what you've said, it doesn't sound like it at all.




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