Ironic — I'm reading this in my Istanbul airbnb, having left Russia in total emergency just month and a half ago, living out of a single suitcase, without any idea of where I'm going to live. And just before I opened this blog post, I was thinking about how comfortable and surprisingly modern Turkey appears to be, and if I, like a lot of my friends, should later apply for a citizen's permit here.
I'm german and hate every thing in Germany. I love to live in Portugal. Lot of Portuguese people that I know don't understand it. Lot of germans that I know understand it pretty well ;)
Istanbul is a beautiful city. It's full of colors, tastes, contrasts, different experiences. But it takes time to feel like you belong somewhere. With this belonging, we start to become much more critical. You get more concerned and more affected by day-to-day aspects of life that you don't pay much attention at first (or you don't even have to pay attention to those at first).
Enjoy Istanbul! It's a beautiful time of the year, too. I wish you best of luck in your future adventures.
I was living in Istanbul before I moved to Germany. You will, too, soon start noticing the serious problems I at some point thought are not solvable any time soon. Some of them are not solvable AT ALL. Like the earthquake risk that scientists have been warning about since years. An earthquake as strong as 7.0 in a city of over 15 million people with almost no preparation. That's a nightmare.
Of the 6 reasons to leave I would suggest two of them are completely valid, career and economic hardship.
The other 4 are grass being greener.
Unknown future, I would suggest Germany has the most unknown future out of any country right now.
Country leadership, reads like a lot of countries, even a cynical US take.
Too much politics, literally politics.
Architecture, this one is interesting. If you're comparing a postcard or even tourist perspective to a city that you've grown up and lived in your whole life, you will be able to see warts and all what you know but nothing from the city you're comparing it to.
I've had the privilege now of living in a bunch of different cities for enough time to get to know them more than just as a tourist. I would suggest 2 months of time at a minimum to get the vibe, 4-6 to actually know a place and then the more subtle details continue to be noticed / learned of from then on.
A concrete example of something you won't understand about a city until you've lived there is the postal service / how easy it is to recieve things. I had a drivers license circumnavigate the globe after it was returned to sender thanks to the efficency of the Spanish postal service and their ridiculous Franco era hand cart delivery.
The author thinks Turkey may have a civil war. Do you really think that Germany is so "unknown" that it may have a war?
Most corruption indexes rank Turkey as being pretty damn corrupt, which would seem to be pretty well confirmed by having had its government and judiciary turned into the whipping boys of an all-powerful dictator. Do you see that in Germany's future? Because... why? The prospect of high energy prices for a few years?
Expats like to hang out in countries like Thailand, ruled by a military junta, and opine that it's all fine and dandy, what could possibly be better!? It's remarkable, really.
I've also left and your reasoning is more or less the same as mine. For me it's been more than a decade, and Germany is filled with opportunities. I wish you all the best, bol şans, viel Spaß.
That was also the general desire among many of my friends and colleagues. So far I'm happy with the life in Germany and Europe. Thank you for the good wishes!
As a Turkish engineer who left Turkey 3.5 years ago, I wish you good luck! You will feel alone, confused and behind at the beginning but later on you will adopt European life style and you will realize there is a huge world out there to not belong a single country. You made a great choose, enjoy it!
Thank you for the good wishes! Tbh didn't feel much loneliness since I know few people here in Germany and also nearby countries. Getting adapted to a new country is a sweet experience. Enjoying it so far.
It was already winter when I arrived. I've seen -5 degrees. Although my friend told me things can get colder, I think I've had a glimpse of how cold it can be.
Not being able to bend the rules.
Sorting rubbish.
The need to get 3 quotes before you get anyone to work on your house
The fact that not everything is a conspiracy
Foreigners sometimes prefer to finish work properly rather than fast - e.g. without leaving wires sticking out of the wall in a big shopping mall etc.
Non Turks aren't all accustomed to you going up and talking to their baby as a total stranger
Not having toilets that squirt water on your bum like they do in Turkey.
You can live in a nearly complete Turkish bubble in the UK and Germany is probably even more like that.
This would be sad. Turkish food, for example, might sometimes be good but the world has a lot to offer and I've met a lot of Turks who won't try anything (Brits are probably slightly better on average but many are just as bad).
- Slowing down (Turkish people always in a rush)'
- Saying 'NO' (we tend to say YES a lot eventhough we think it is a no situation, both in your real life and work life)
- Every people I met, they already visited most of the countries in Europe, so they are travelling all world and met with different people from different cultures. Before I came Europe I only visited one country other than Turkey. It takes some time learn other cultures and how to behave...
- Politics is stupid.
- There are other problems than economy, middle east, religion etc. People are talking about sustanability, climate change, electronic cars etc.
There are other things but these are the ones come to my mind so far :)
About the last one, I remember being positively surprised by how little 'happens' in terms of news in Germany, compared to back in Turkey. Leaving that feeling of impending doom, as if something bad is waiting just around the corner, and most of your small talk now being about shitty weather or whatever.
Then COVID and Russia happened, and now the world is catching up in doom and gloom. :)
On the other hand, I find these attitudes hypocritical when it comes to war and Ukraine. As if suddenly, these people realized war is bad. Turkish people have been facing it since 2003, if we talk about terrorism we may have to go back even further.
The Syrian War was never discussed, but now everyone is talking about the Ukraine War, and no action is taken instead of painting big buildings yellow and blue.
Other than leaving Turkey part, I am fascinated by Ahmet's background. He says he has graduated from semi-religious high school (IHL?) and did not attend university. The fact that he self-taught coding and English is amazing to me and not very common. Good job and best luck with your life.
Good luck. My family emigrated to US from Turkey in the 90s. Back then, the inflation was over a hundred percent. It costs millions of liras to buy a dollar. Now the history is repeating itself. The value of lira is tanking and inflation is running amuck. The people governing the country have changed, but the systemic rot is still there.
The lira was devalued 1000000:1 in the 90s. So if a dollar was 1000000 lira back then that is actually a similar figure as stated in the article of 1.8 lira for the dollar.
I have a 1000000 lira note right here that a friend gave me around the year 2000. I kept it because I liked the big number on it. It looks special. Even then he mentioned that it was only about a dollar or two
I think the reason so many surprising distance comparisons in Europe involve Germany is that most people have in their heads that Germany's farther West than it is. And that it doesn't stretch as far East as it does. Maybe it's a leftover from Cold War-era maps.
That's an unfortunate reality for the country, and its future. I believe many of them at some point would like to return in the case that the current political and social environment were to get better. It is what it is now.
How fair is that though? I would imagine that a majority of individuals in many countries around the world would like to like in the US, China, Japan, or Europe if they could. Is 73% markedly higher than we would see in India, Iran, Pakistan, or Nigeria?
The last time my country was at war September 1900. We didn't even participate in the World Wars since by the time we made the long exodus to the European front the war was over. So our track record is pretty good, compared to the US who hasn't seen a single decade in its existence without being at war with someone.
However, when I said 'peace' I meant in the interpersonal sense. The US is nice, but there's something to be said about living in a homogenous environment identical to that of your youth.
This really resonates with me. I made a similar move to Germany 4 years ago from a different 3rd world country.
I find it quite sad how so many capable people leave their motherland because of lack of opportunities. The rich countries keep getting the best people from countries worse off, it seems like a vicious cycle.
No reason to feel sad. Simply move back to your own country and start fixing problems. Your country needs you. Germans probably feel sad too about the fact that their country is turned into a generic settlement area for economic opportunists.
> Germans probably feel sad too about the fact that their country is turned into a generic settlement area for economic opportunists.
Why would Germans feel sad about software developers (listed as shortage occupation in Germany) and other educated/experienced mid-class workers moving in to Germany, getting things done and paying taxes?
There is no shortage because across the board wages are rising much slower than inflation. Considering software developers specifically: The wages in Europe are much lower than in the US. We are talking about less than 50% after taxes. And in Germany wages for software developers are even lower than UK, Netherlands, Scandinavia, Switzerland and even parts of France (Paris). Conclusion: there is no shortage of software developers in Germany. Not by a long shot.
IF there is a shortage, which I agree there probably isn't, it is exacerbated by relatively low salaries that keeps Europeans from entering the field. Why become a software engineer in Germany? Unless you make it into FAANG you are not much better off than becoming a schoolteacher yet you get none of the benefits like job security and long holidays. Schoolteachers don't become "old" when they turn 40.
I wouldn't bother with software development in Europe it is not a great career path. European companies can fetch cheap workers from the 3rd world really easily and the next step is to simply hire them remotely. The ones who make decent wages in European tech are only managers or scrum masters, never the people who actually write the code.
Because there is more to your community and culture than increasing GDP.
A major industry moved to my local area about 30 years ago. It radically transformed a unique area into an Anywhere, USA suburbia, with tons of people coming (and going) from all over the country (and some other countries.)
Nothing is the same anymore, and most of it is objectively worse - much higher crime, for example. The tight-knit high trust community is completely gone. A lot of local culture is gone.
But there's higher tax receipts and the roads have more lanes, so uh, there's that.
>Your country needs you.
He doesn't need his country though.
>economic opportunists
that includes all the people that ever lived right? Should Americans feel sad the best of the Germans are trying to move to US?
>Simply move back to your own country and start fixing problems.
Spoken with the confidence (and arrogance?) of someone that's not aware of how rich countries help to create the problems that cause young people to flee their homelands.
Isn't the current inflation and investment issues in Turkey caused by Erdogan? He remains in power by blaming "the west" without providing details and using nationalism to gain votes [1]. He then also gets votes by pandering to conservative Muslims.[2][3].
I wonder why he did not consider working remotely. Getting a low end European or even American developer salary while living in Turkey should be pretty kushy. You can also live in the mediterranean away from that poorly built mass housing he described.
Until recently I was living in Russia, and I'm happy to have moved just now despite having to pay $12,000 more in taxes.
When I moved to Russia a few years ago, I was delighted to pay less tax, and dismissed the bad political situation as something that doesn't matter and just a way to save more money before moving somewhere else eventually (the famous "some time later").
Well, now that I've had to move because the said "political situation" has escalated quite rapidly, I can say that having to pay more is a good trade-off [in my eyes] for safety and sanity.
My origin doesn't have much to do with the difficulties I endured (except that the region I lived in is much less developed than the rest of the country). Fortunately, it's not the 90s anymore. Everything that made it hard for me to live, can be said for any average Turkish citizen as well. Well, unless you are very rich.
I'm shocked, but encouraged to hear, there are essentially no generational effects you note of the oppression Kurdish people experienced.
This sentiment may not be repeatable concerning effects of Turkish government on Kurdish peoples outside the border of Turkey, particularly in Bashur Kurdistan and Rojava (especially Afrin Canton where hundreds of Kurdish civilians were killed in connection with events proximal to what Turkish government refers to as 'Operation Olive Branch'). I can't imagine there are warm fuzzies inside knowing your tax money goes to murdering fellow Kurds near your borders.
YPG is a organization with plenty of Kurdisch nationalists in it. Just like any extremist, whatever an extremist claims needs to be filtered and fact checked, and then taken with a pinch of salt.
The question was whether I had lived in any of those places. The answer is to a limited extent I have.
Damned if I say yes, damned if I say no. You reveal it's just a bad faith trap -- I'll just be dismissed whether the answer is I have lived there at all or I haven't.
>YPG is a organization with plenty of Kurdisch [sic] nationalists in it.
And Turkey is a country with plenty of Turkish nationalists in it. By that logic you argue any Turkish citizen is an extremist. Feel free to 'fact check' and come up with whatever extremist rhetoric you'd like to use to dismiss away the fatal effect on civilians of recent Turkish-backed incursions into Afrin Canton.
Maybe we met different Kurds. I met a lot in Iraq and Syria and most of the ones I met balked at even having to speak Turkish (even if they could speak fluently), let alone be part of the country. I imagine some of the ones I met were blown apart by Turkish forces some time after I left Rojava.
I'm a white Turk, 1,87cm in height, with green eyes, and I am socially accepted even in the nordic Europe peninsula. Guess what? My sister is getting married to a Kurdish guy, and I will be visiting the Kurdish-dominated part of Turkey this summer for the wedding. I will be able to tell you whether Kurds are bad or good firsthand, and also, I can't wait to load up a bunch of AK-47s and hand generates and shoot them over the sky during the wedding ceremony.
That comparison might make some sense if Kurdistan were a enormous global power and shared a huge land border with Turkey. When in fact, Kurdistan [checks atlas] does not exist at all as an independent country, much less a dominant world power.
As someone who has never been to Ukraine or Russia, I genuinely don't know: what has Ukraine actually done to repress its Russian minority? I've read that 1) Russian is not an official language in Ukraine, 2) there have been some efforts made to promote the speaking and teaching of Ukrainian (though Russian remains widely spoken) and 3) a Ukrainian bill recognizing Ukraine's "indigenous peoples" did not cover Russians.
That strikes me as...almost nothing. What am I missing?
My home is Kyiv. I've been in Kyiv the entire war.
It's rare to ever hear a conversation in Ukrainian in Kyiv, most people speak Russian. Even though lately some people I know have tried to "switch" to Ukrainian (most people are bi-lingual), they have all switched back to Russian pretty fast. Ukrainian is strongly promoted, and legislated in many situations. But, I think you have summed it up nicely with "almost nothing".
I've never seen any repression of the "Russian minority", prior to this war. This is just anecdotal of course. Many Ukrainians have either Russian friends, or extended family, or heritage.
However, now, I assume Russians will be persecuted in Ukraine pretty much forevermore.
BTW, I'm not Ukrainian or Russian, I just live in Ukraine.
What does “closing of Russian schools” mean? What is a Russian school? A school that teaches the Russian language? And why are they closing? Were they banned by the government, or are they closing for some other reason?
The explanation given here [1] is that Ukraine is only changing the language used for instruction to Ukrainian, nationwide, not prohibiting the teaching of Russian.
You shouldn’t believe everything that you read on the internet of course, but this strikes me as far more plausible.
> changing the language used for instruction to Ukrainian,
Isn't that what Turkey does to kurds? Changing language of everything to turkish?
You seem clueless in ethnic matters. Imagine your children school changing the "language of instruction" to French.
Worse yet, the people of the website you are quoting are just as clueless and entirely not understanding what's going on here. To the extent of giving themself out.
Is the name calling really necessary? I guess I shouldn't be surprised that it's hard to have a civil conversation on this topics, but I thought we were off to a strong start.
I'm not sure why you keep putting "language of instruction" in quotes, like it is a euphemism. It just means "the language the teachers use in schools." Attending schools that are taught in something other than a person's native language is an extremely common experience around the world. Many nations think it is a good idea to have a standardized language of instruction in their schools.
Is it a form of cultural repression? I see how it can be. We have had some political battles here in the U.S. about whether it is appropriate to provide public-school instruction in Spanish in areas with many Latino students. The battle lines in that debate are basically where you'd expect: some people emphasize the need for people to "assimilate" while others want to allow them to learn in whatever language is best for them and emphasize preservation of their culture. Certainly far worse happens to other cultures around the world and nobody bats an eyelash. And I've certainly never heard of any calls for a special military operation to "liberate" Latinos from U.S. communities because the local schools teach classes in English!
Other countries (like Turkey with Kurdish) have gone much farther and actually banned the use of a language in various contexts--i.e., they don't just not use the language, they criminally prosecute people who do. In Turkey, people have been charged with "insulting Turkishness" or even treason, and been sent to prison, for speaking Kurdish in official settings, playing Kurdish music, etc.[1][2] If there's evidence of this going on in Ukraine, that might change my view. But so far everything I've heard about Ukraine absolutely pales in comparison. (Again, I don't necessarily credit every single one of these accounts. But in this case I have actually known some Kurdish refugees, and this generally aligns with their take on life in Turkey.)
Well, that raises a question. Are 120 million Russians upset merely because Russian speaking children in Ukraine will be educated in Ukrainian (while still enjoying the legally guaranteed ability to learn Russian in school)? That seems implausible to me, and not consistent with the Russian media I've seen. I think most of the Russians in support of the war think that much worse things are happening than that. What's your sense?
Cultural repression is a matter of degree, of course, and I'm a bit cautious about making pronouncements about what is serious and what is not. But I'll put it this way: on a scale from 1 to 10, where 1 is "no problem" and 10 is "special military operation," I'd rate the level of repression we've been discussing in this thread far closer to a 1 than a 10.
And, of course, we haven't discussed the fact that part of the justification for the Ukrainian language laws has been to undo decades of de-Ukrainianization at the hands of the Soviet Union. It's hard to say how to actually weigh these competing interests, so I won't try. But it is certainly there.
I'm not justifying the war here. I'm merely stating that being Russian-speaking in Ukraine was a lousy deal for a long time. And we're talking about whole regions here, not ordinary families.
Russian speaking people don't need to learn Russian in school (that much) since obviously they already know it. They need to study in Russian because, among other things, this is the tool they already have.
Prior to the war, this is not entirely true other than exceptional cases.
Now, it's very true, and will be forever. This is what happens when thousands of Russians invade your country, rape, murder, steal, destroy, and act like barbarians. I anticipate no forgiveness, and Russians will be unwelcome in Ukraine for a very long time.
How did you find an apartment in Munich? My girlfriend is in a very similar situation as you. Also, how long did you wait between the visa appointment at the embassy and you getting the visa? hoşgeldiniz to Germany!
Thank you! I had known a friend who helped me with apartments. Generally it is quite difficult to find an apartment that has a good price/quality ratio. As for the visa, I got it by post in 7-8 days after the appointment.
I could change Turkey to Algeria and this would read like something written by an Algerian after moving to Turkey. My point is, the grass is always greener on the other side.
I get your point. There is always someone who has it worse than me. Point being that, it doesn't make sense for a human to stop looking for a better life.
I too am mostly brown. Love this way of putting it for some reason.
For so long I wanted Europe to encourage Turkey to join the EU and I feel very sad about how negatively it all turned out.
While we have responded somewhat coherently to the war on Ukraine, I feel like this is a temporary moment of clarity. In other respects I feel like our drive to look outwards and take risks is very low.
What made you make the decision to move to a country ruled by a autocratic far right politician? You don’t seem to touch upon that in the link provided
Do you get paid in USD/euro, and are thus shielded from currency risk?
Some time ago I found that Antalya had low rents and thought it would be nice to live by the beach for cheap. But some things I heard bothered me, like smoking and poor air quality in general. The political stuff kind of makes me uncomfortable but not sure if that's rational.
Well, you are an outlier. Living in US for more than 20 years, I rarely see folks going back especially last couple of years. The ones I know who go back either have rich families or are politically connected. I understand that is might not be the case for you.
> Then we end up with corruption. The party members milked us so much, yet the milk hasn’t run out yet. This is how rich Turkey is. So rich, with all the stealing, it’s still standing.
This statement is casually thrown around generally by those who find themselves belonging to the other side (politically speaking). But where is the evidence?
I’ve visited verifiably — as in the names of the leaders appear in all those leaks over the years — corrupt countries. The corruption shows in the disparities in societies. For example, access to tap water, heating, good roads, and other infrastructural types. For example, accessibility of education. For example, the purchasing power of the averaging citizen as measured in concrete terms (eg housing, food, etc) not in dollars.
In the corrupt countries the infrastructure is generally terrible. The citizens can barely afford food. There are no universities. In turkey it seems like non of this holds.
So, how is Erdogan corrupt? Is it just because OP is in dogmatic opposition to his ideals? IIRC the genesis of Erdogans political career is his management of Istanbul as mayor to improve the quality of life of all of its citizens. I believe that counts for something in a sense that he deserves the benefit of the doubt and the burden is on the accusers to show concrete evidence of corruption. Something like how Kushner received billions from the Saudis after the end of Trumps term.
Yeah I agree that is incorrect but I disagree to that reading.
Just use logic. If a nation is compromised by systemic corruption what do you think will happen? I believe corruption is like cancer in that it will seek to plunder anything in a non-discriminating manner. All the wealth of a state is up for grabs. What do you think will happen to money allocated for infrastructure and services for the average (weak) citizen? Roads, hospitals, services, etc? Do you think the corrupt ruler and the cronies that enable him will resist the temptation to rob these endeavors? If the cronies rob, do you think the ruling authority will a) look the other way or b) prosecute the crony and risk a backlash?
To an observer who has visited Turkey several times both before and after Erdogan, the difference in improvements is literally night and day. Simple example: before, one couldn't even receive proper medical attention (and it would literally bankrupt you if you did). After: health care is a free service and the country has way more hospitals than ever before.
The Chinese call this "running" (there is a Chinese character that is worded the same as run in pinyin and is used to term as escaping/leaving from China), something that has been increasing with the iron fist of the CCP coming crashing down a lot more often, especially what has happened with Shanghai.
Is there a positive/negative connotation with it? In English to "escape from a situation", the implication is that the situation was bad and you are saving yourself from it. But if you "run from a situation", it generally implies something like lack of courage.
And he is likely writing that from a safe job in Europe, not Turkey.. It's fascinating how people develop so super strong feelings about "their home" while not living there.
Please don't post in the flamewar style to HN. I know these things can bring up strong feelings but nationalistic and political flamewars (which this sort of comment tends to lead to) are against the spirit of this site and only make things worse.
