You're right, I probably don't know enough philosophy (but then again, who does...). What great achievement of philosophy should we put in the league of the moon landing or splitting the atom?

Also there is a larger conversation to be had, because we're really talking about Western philosophy in context. Buddhist philosophy has all kinds of things to say about what the mind is and isn't, but we don't carry that in our traditions because a lot of Buddhism completely nullifies our Western consumerism culture, and that's uncomfortable. So...

The founding of the United States of America was an experiment in the practical application of political philosophy. Without major philosophical disagreements between the Government of England and the colonies, the nation that sent men to the moon would not exist.

>What great achievement of philosophy should we put in the league of the moon landing or splitting the atom?

We could start with Aristotelian logic, and the idea that falsehood can lead to truth, but not vice versa. A formal definition of "true" and "false", and their semantic properties is the basis of literally all formal thinking. It should be noted propositional logic was incorporated into mathematics much later, and that this idea is inescapable in all intellectual pursuits. You can invalidate political, metaphysical, scientific and mathematical assertions on the basis of logic.

We might also point to platonic forms, which provide the basis for all engineering and scientific modeling. It is the very concept that you are appealing to every time you add an error term to a model. Until we started seeing the world in these terms, we couldn't even express the engineering requirements and scientific questions needed to get to the moon. What do you mean by "the Saturn V fuselage is a circle of X centimeters in diameter, give or take Ɛ ... ?"

If you prefer something more modern, we could point to Gilbert Ryle's demonstration that Cartesian dualism is founded on fallacious reasoning. The guy rigorously demonstrated why mind-body separation was a logical contradiction, thereby showing that science could meaningfully study the mind. On that basis, we are now able to communicate with locked-in patients using brain imaging that recognizes the neural signature of consciousness.

Have you ever wondered what your political values are based upon? It's all but certain that you were educated and shaped by culture and institutions that explicitly espouse the ideas of John Stuart Mill.

I do see the trap you're laying, however. You're going to either (a) claim that one doesn't really need the first three ideas to pursue science effectively or (b) claim that ideas such as Mill's are epistemologically subjective and therefore of lesser value than going to the moon.

For (a), the onus would be on you to show how logical reasoning, the specification of systems (surveying, architecture, mechanics, etc.) can be expressed absent form (and you will note that human inventions absent the notion of form were not the product of specification).

For (b), you will have to concede that epistemologically-subjective problems are much more challenging than their objective counterparts, and that science is -- in this respect -- playing in easy mode. It's easy to spot errors and come to a consensus when the bridge falls over. It's harder to spot glaring problems in e.g. a political theory. More importantly, perhaps, you'll have to appeal to philosophy to convince us of the inferiority of such ideas. Along the way, you will appeal to a number of great ideas, including Aristotelian logic (ideally).

If you want to claim that empiricism should trump all other modes of knowledge when it is applicable, and that empiricism is therefore better than the other modes of knowledge ... nice try! How, pray, might we determine when empiricism is applicable? How can empiricism be more important or "better" (whatever that means) than the very things it depends upon?

>Also there is a larger conversation to be had, because we're really talking about Western philosophy in context.

Indeed we are, but I hardly see the relevance. We are talking about Wester philosophy because the two are very different beasts. What we refer to as "(mostly) Western philosophy" is unique in its emphasis on the analytical method, and on uninterrupted chains of propositional logic. There is no equivalent movement in the East. The phrase "Eastern philosophy" uses the word "philosophy" in a very different sense. These thinkers are absolute treasures as well, but their methods are different: the emphasis is on holistic meaning, and (arguably, since there is an equivalent tradition in the West, in many ways) something we could label as "spirituality". If you want an easy/popular example (albeit only loosely related to philosophy), try comparing how Sun Tzu and Carl von Clausewitz think about war. The method is very distinct.

>Buddhist philosophy has all kinds of things to say about what the mind is and isn't, but we don't carry that in our traditions because a lot of Buddhism completely nullifies our Western consumerism culture, and that's uncomfortable. So...

So... what? It's an interesting question, but it has nothing to do with the value of Western philosophy itself. The irony is that the very thing you decry -- consumerism -- has its roots in liberalism, ergo in Jon Stuart Mill!

Are you referring to the (deep!) spiritual wisdom in Buddhism? Western philosophy is perfectly equipped to discuss these questions as well! There is nothing uncomfortable, here! Have you read even one medieval philosopher? Start with Thomas Aquinas! You seem like a logical positivist, so perhaps you would enjoy an attempt at a formal, axiomatic proof of metaphysical phenomena? If so, you should read Liebniez's Monadology -- it's not easy reading, but it's great!

In the same way that Sun Tzu and Clauewitz differ in their methodology, so to do Acquinas and Liebniez differ from the Buddha. Yet there is overlap in their conclusions, and unique insights on their side as well!

It seems like you're falling into the trap of exoticism. If you spent even a fraction of the time you (apparently) dedicate to informing yourself on Eastern philosophy reading great Western philosophers, you would discover a treasure-trove that is on par with what the East has produced, and wonderfully original and unique.

>You're right, I probably don't know enough philosophy (but then again, who does...).

I don't even know where to begin with this one. Many people know a great deal about philosophy, just as many people know a great deal about science. We call the former "philosophers" and the latter "scientists".

P.S.: I'm not even a goddamn philosopher. I'm a scientist.

I must say that I've loved this entire chain of conversation. Some high quality discussion here.

I do think people's critiques of philosophy stem from a need to be pragmatic, which ironically is itself a philosophy. It's difficult to reconcile the lagged "observable usefulness" of philosophy with its actual usefulness.

That which is useful is generally ignored as its been so ingrained in the psyche and that which is seen to not be useful is usually controversial and hasn't made itself to be the "norm" as of yet.

>I must say that I've loved this entire chain of conversation. Some high quality discussion here.

Thank you! I must admit I find the disparagement of philosophy tiring and irritating, especially when it comes from people (self-proclaimed empiricists) who really ought to know better. I am happy to hear my frustration has not gotten in the way of an interesting discussion :)

>It's difficult to reconcile the lagged "observable usefulness" of philosophy with its actual usefulness.

I don't think there is a lag in usefulness (observed or otherwise), when one knows what philosophy is, and appreciates the deep dependencies between it and its sub-disciplines.

Rather, I think people confuse usefulness with certainty. By that logic, I could discount the whole field of science on the basis of the inferential leap. Although science is an iterative process, we cannot be certain that it must converge on truth (though I think it probably does). Given that, the mathematician could look down his nose at science and say "Ha! These fools can't even prove anything!", and in so doing be just as much of a fool as the scientist dismissing the philosopher.

(For the avoidance of doubt: I understand you are not such a person!)

Philosophic ignorance results among other things in existential crisis and gullibility. Is it observable and pragmatic enough? Another example is fallacies that were first identified in (philosophic) criticism of scholasticism and later expanded.