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We do. It’s called nuclear power and it‘s fought by those who claim they are fighting for the environment.

> https://www.giss.nasa.gov/research/briefs/kharecha_02/




We also need carbon tax to pay for carbon extraction plants: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/feb/04/carbon-e...

Put these plants in USA deep red states to create high paying blue collar jobs in construction.

Help level out impact of coal mining ending.


There are actual safety and environmental concerns that I wouldn't dismiss as "claiming to be fighting for the environment".

I do agree though that even I used to be completely against nuclear power because of the unsolved waste problem. However in light of the last 25 years not having brought enough progress to prevent an environmental collapse I'm inclined to accept that now, as yet another thing we'll just have to figure out at some point.


>...I do agree though that even I used to be completely against nuclear power because of the unsolved waste problem.

In terms of the waste, right now nuclear waste could be recycled which would reduce the amount of waste: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioactive_waste

Soon it will be possible to use most of the waste as fuel:

"...Fast reactors can "burn" long lasting nuclear transuranic waste (TRU) waste components (actinides: reactor-grade plutonium and minor actinides), turning liabilities into assets. Another major waste component, fission products (FP), would stabilize at a lower level of radioactivity than the original natural uranium ore it was attained from in two to four centuries, rather than tens of thousands of years"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integral_fast_reactor

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_IV_reactor

While there are issues with nuclear power, the worry people have about nuclear waste is greatly overblown to say the least. The amount waste is very manageable (the Netherlands actually stores their waste in an art museum) and in a relatively short amount of time we will likely be able to use most of this "waste" to generate electricity.


http://www.deepisolation.com has solved the waste problem.


Honest and good faith question here: assuming all electricity on the grid was nuclear, how much CO2 emission would remain? You can't just swap massive cargo ships to nuclear overnight. Would "just" making the power grid green be enough?


No, power generation is about a quarter: https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/sources-greenhouse-gas-emis...

Transportation could push that total to 50% if all ICE cars were converted or destroyed and only electric vehicles were used (ignoring ships and trains). "Industry" includes CO2 waste byproducts which are much harder to reduce as many processes may struggle to eliminate that byproduct. Instead capture and sequestration would be needed. This is another 25%

The rest are small, but since we need virtually all CO2 emissions to be zero, we are left with nearly another 25% that isn't tied to electric production and is difficult to replace.

So, 50% of all CO2 isn't power generation related.


It’s possible to synthesize hydrocarbon and other liquid fuels using CO2 from the air, or hydrogen which has no carbon in it. If you have a closed loop with your carbon, you eliminate the problem (still have particulates, NO etc, but that’s separate)


In the US we generate on average 0.99lb of CO2 per kWh. The total output is 1.87b tons of CO2. Total CO2 emissions in the US were about 5.17b tons.

So about 1/3 of emissions. It’s worth doing, considering we can reasonably execute this in a decade.

https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=74&t=11

https://www.statista.com/statistics/183943/us-carbon-dioxide...


Enough for what? Cheaper nuclear power on the grid may actually increase demand for other goods, so it's not clear how much the benefit would be.


No, it's opposed by people who are numerate enough to understand that nuclear is ludicrously expensive and completely unnecessary.

I live in Scotland. In the past 20 years we've gone from around 12% electricity from renewable to around 90%. The last coal fired station closed in 2016 and we've not added any new nuclear in that time.

This is usually the point that someone handwaves that having more money and more people makes you less capable than Scotland...


>...I live in Scotland. In the past 20 years we've gone from around 12% electricity from renewable to around 90%.

Scotland has done an amazing job of decarbonizing the energy sector. That said, the important thing about electricity is that storage is very expensive so you have to export when the wind is too strong and import when there is no wind. From the "Annual Compendium of Scottish Energy Statistics 2020" Aug 2020 update available here:

https://www.gov.scot/publications/annual-compendium-of-scott...

>...For almost three quarters (74.4%) of the time in 2019, Scotland met its own demand with its domestic low carbon generation only (renewables and nuclear), down from its peak of 77.8% in 2017. This is likely to be related to outages in Hunterston nuclear power station in 2018 and 2019. Scotland’s rapid rise in renewable electricity generation means that renewables alone met electricity demand for an estimated 42.3% of the time in 2019, rising from 0.0% as recently as 2012.

>...In recent years, imports have increased as well, rising from approximately 200 GWh in 2014 to more than 1 TWh for every year since 2016. This is possibly a consequence of the closure of the coal-fired power station at Longannet in 2016, which has meant that there has been a potential need for Scotland to have non-intermittent electricity generation available.

Obviously it is the intermittent nature of renewables that is the challenge. As the Royal Society of Edinburgh wrote in "Scotland’s Energy Future":

>...The reality of where we find ourselves, however, is that the planned closures of both of Scotland’s remaining nuclear power stations by 2030 will see Scotland lose the source of generation for almost 43% of its electricity, going into a period where it is widely expected that demand for electricity will increase. These closures potentially coinciding with the end-of-life of the first wave of offshore wind only adds to this problem.

https://www.rse.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Energy-Rep...


.. and the nuclear that we do have is in trouble: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/aug/27/hunterston-s...

Not to mention the pile of nuclear warheads parked in fallout radius of our largest city. Which is the real origin of a lot of the opposition to nuclear.


What's the lower proportion renewable sources produced in the last 12 months (in one minute intervals)? If that is much lower than 90% you have to have some other source (or accept frequent randomish power cuts).


Well, we're linked to the English grid, and via connectors to Northern Ireland, continental Europe, etc. In practice the difference is made up by natural gas, and the large pumped hydro storage at Cruachan.

It has been some years since I had a power cut.


So fossil fuels provide the base load...


Well, we don't have"randomish power cuts" so I guess someone solved that problem.


I think it's interesting that someone has to insist on something that doesn't exist to prove their point...


https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24529301

Fossil fuels provide the backup power source.


Yes, that's why we only get 90% from renewable. 10% is not.

Out of interest, what percentage are you at?


>This is usually the point that someone handwaves that having more money and more people makes you less capable than Scotland...

No a rebuttal on HN will usually be on the lines of something something small homogeneous population something something


While your point is accurate, I'm not sure it's in any way relevant to this. Perhaps a different discussion on bigotry within tech would be the place for this.


Will you still be saying this if/when renewables are providing >80% of grid electricity?


Nuclear arms proliferation is a bigger risk than global warming, though there are reactor designs that try and minimize it.


There are, anything that isn’t a breeder won’t build up enough plutonium or it will burn that too but it doesn’t mean you can’t convert them to breeders by changing the fuel cycle.

To combat proliferation reactor designs aren’t the issue, you need to control the source of the fuel and it’s entire lifecycle.

Building nuclear weapons isn’t hard, but it’s a project that requires a huge investment in infrastructure so proliferation has always been a question of will and consequences not capability.


If nuclear power was the safe clean panacea that people say. The dirty hippies would have be steamrolled long ago.




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